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With all the "Why do men..." threads lately, I would like some answers

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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:11 PM
Original message
With all the "Why do men..." threads lately, I would like some answers
There have been a few threads lately (and many more in the past) that have asked questions about how men act. They usually end up being a battle of the sexes and they really go nowhere. I would like to hear some serious suggestions and answers from the people asking these questions on what they would like to see done to remedy what they see as a problem.

Saying "men shouldn't treat women bad" is not really an answer. I think some people think that there is some sort of manual that men get at birth and we are to learn to be 'women haters". I have some news for you, there isn't. There are a lot of people on this planet and there have been billions more in the past. There are trillions of outside influences that help to form each persons personalities and stimulate their thought patterns.

Each person on this planet (that is men and women) are born individuals. They are each raised differently, live in different situations, learn at different speeds, have different interests and become who they are in a lot of different ways. It is completely impossible to generalize people based on male and female yet so many people try.

Of course here at DU it is not accepted nor should it be to make generalized statements against women, but a few times a week you can find statements about "white males" scattered around DU an no one really cares. I understand that "white males" have been "in power" or whatever for eons, but to me it is still sexist and racist to be throwing that crap around, but I don't make the rules. I have figured out a long time ago that the only way we can all become equal is to accept each other's differences for who we are and how we are born, but there seems to be a problem with many people doing that.

I have also come to the conclusion that no matter how much I try to embrace other causes, it makes no difference because there are always people who won't accept my support. These days I live on my own, have no "special person" in my life and don't go out of my way to find one. I love people, but I don't feel the need to subject myself to attacks on who I am, what color I am, what gender I am and what I like to eat.

Anyway, I would just like to hear from people what you think should be done in this world to stop the "war on women". Should men be given some sort of drugs when they are born? Should parent's who raise their sons to be "women haters" be taken out back and shot? Should men have their nads cut off so they no longer think of sex? Should there be an all out campaign to force men to not look at women with lust in their hearts? I'm just asking.

As I said, saying that men shouldn't hate women is fine, but it is no answer to the problem. I would like some real suggestions and answers and maybe we can make a difference.
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TAPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. Let me guess...
you are a white male.

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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Yup
And I am sorry. I had no choice in the matter.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think you answered your own question
in your first paragraph.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. There will always be such a problem
The issue is generalizing. Whether it be Muslims or libruls or women.

Society will get over the gender bias last, I expect. Too many differences in experience. If you are a man you can't have babies. If you are a woman you may have them or at least can for a number of years. The idea that this affects the mind and personality in some generalized way will die hard.

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pauliedangerously Donating Member (843 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. This brings up one of my all time favorite quotes
"To generalize is to be an idiot. To particularize is the alone distinction of merit. General knowledge are those knowledge that idiots possess."

William Blake
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
103. There's no way it can't affect the mind and personality.
The chemicals exchanged inside our brains are what make us who we are. Men and women have different amounts of many key hormones that affect the way we behave. It's absurd to think these differences don't affect the mind and personality in a generalized way.
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QuestionAll... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. yah sure, I can tell you want a serious discussion...
"""Anyway, I would just like to hear from people what you think should be done in this world to stop the "war on women". Should men be given some sort of drugs when they are born? Should parent's who raise their sons to be "women haters" be taken out back and shot? Should men have their nads cut off so they no longer think of sex? Should there be an all out campaign to force men to not look at women with lust in their hearts? I'm just asking."""

feh.
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Those were just suggestions
I haven't heard any really, just a lot of people saying that men are bad.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. yeah...that pretty much...
Edited on Tue Oct-03-06 12:17 PM by VelmaD
killed any desire I had to come up with a genuine, serious answer to the OP
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. I think he was just frustrated. I don't think he meant anything by that.
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. I was attempting to make a point
Basically what I am saying there is that sometimes things are said around here concerning this that makes about as much sense as what I posted there. All you have to do is go read some of the threads from the last few days and you will see what I mean.

There are just too many things to consider in the make up of a way a person is to just say "men should be nice to women" and that was my point in suggesting ridiculous remedies as I did.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
35. I doubt you had any desire to seriously respond...
in the first place, and just cherry picked an excuse to get fake outraged about. That opinion of mine is of course based on your post here.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. If you thought that was "outraged"...
you need to spend more time with opinionated women. Sheesh.

And you can take your belief that my "outrage" was fake and stick it.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. I didn't think it was outraged, hence the "fake" word in there.
Thanks for conceding the argument. If it's just the same to you, I'd rather not stick it, as I don't take orders from you.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. So basically you were being insulting...
just for the sake of being insulting. Thanks for making that crystal clear.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #54
78. No there was more to it.
Edited on Tue Oct-03-06 01:56 PM by Touchdown
You weren't interested in engaging in anything but male bashing, and playing the victim, as all of your other posts on this thread have proven. You hearing only what you want to hear is nothing I can help you with.

And... as far as insulting is concerned, I wasn't the one who told anybody to stick anything anywhere.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. your fingers are typing...
but all I see is the same old "blah blah blah". Reply or not :shrug:...I'm done.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #80
89. You were done long before post 80.
I wasn't typing for your benefit either. I knew all you would see is "blah, blah, blah". I was just pointing you out to anybody else who would read this...ahem...exchange. :hi:
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grizmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. just go for the final solution
and kill off all us white males
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entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
52. Dude, get a life
n/t
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grizmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #52
79. What? you mean I shouldn't be lumped in with every other white male
and be considered on my own merits and faults? what a concept.

Sorry if my sarcasm is over the top for you, but I don't buy into asking individuals to explain why they don't fit someone elses vision of some demographic that I supposedly fall into.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
7. Only men can understand how being raised in a society
that elevates them and demeans women affects them. Only YOU can understand why YOU DON'T think the way some (many?) men think about women. Women aren't raised in the same way so we don't have the insight as to what pressures you in society. We are asking for your help.

Why is the question being asked? Because we can't address a problem if we haven't identified it's source. How do we stop terrorism? Many Democrats believe that we stop it by understanding and addressing its cause. How do we stop violence against women? Same answer.

What we would like from men is not dismissive insults to our concerns: "Should men be given some sort of drugs when they are born? Should parent's who raise their sons to be "women haters" be taken out back and shot? Should men have their nads cut off so they no longer think of sex? Should there be an all out campaign to force men to not look at women with lust in their hearts? I'm just asking."

Too bad you're not really interested in hearing - or helping.
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Well, I am interested
I don't demean women, I have never raped one, I have never killed one, I don't slap them around, I don't even say anything that would be regarded as sexist toward women and it bothers me when others do. There are many men like me in this world, but sometimes you wouldn't know it from some of the posts I see around here.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I find the difference in your perception...
of the number of non-sexist men in the world and the perception of most of the women I know fascinating. I'm glad you don't do those things you listed, but I don't know that I've ever met a women who thought the majority of men were "good" guys...that there were "many men" who don't even say anything that would be regarded as sexist. I think your perception of the level of sexism women experience on a daily basis from otherwise "good guys" would be vastly different if you were female.


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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. I can guarantee you my perception would be different
But, I was born a male. I can only go by what I'm told and by my own personal perception and observations of what goes on. I have witnessed things, but unless I become a female I don't know if I will ever understand 100%. But I don't think that is my fault.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
41. All the women you've met think most men are "bad" guys?
That seems like a pretty sad view of the world to me.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. It is a pretty sad view of the world...
imagine how women feel living in that reality.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. I think in that case the perception isn't representing reality.
Thankfully, not all women see the world that way.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. Gee thanks...
for diminshing the reality many women live with. I was just waiting for someone to come along today and tell me that women's perception of the world is wrong. *sigh*
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Pitiful straw argument.
I didn't say that women's perception of the world is wrong. I disagree with your assesment of women's perception. I don't believe that most women have a grudge against humanity.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. It's not a grudge against humanity...
it's a well-founded perception, based in the reality of our lives, that most men do not have our best interests at heart. But thanks for putting words in my mouth.



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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. Most men aren't good guys means
most humans aren't good, unless you also perceive that enough of a majority of women are good to tilt the balance back to "most humans are good".
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. Most humans aren't good...
but most women are not likely to try to sexually assault me.

What we're talking about here are two different though not completely unrelated issues. Yes, most people suck. But on top of that women have to deal with some men heaping a little extra helping of shit on top of our heads just because we're women and just because they can.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. That's a very sad view of the world.
By any chance, do you currently practice a salvationist religion or were raised in a family that did?
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. No...
and no.

I also believe that all people have the potential from transcendant goodness if that makes you feel any better.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #77
82. Then where does it come from? nt
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. Where does what...
come from?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Your view of the world that most men aren't good guys. nt
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. How do I explain to you...
what it's like to grow up female. Because that's essentially what you're asking me to do.

There are some big things that contribute to my worldview - like having men old enough to be my father make endless obscene comments at me when I grew breasts at 11. There are stats I could quote to you that would give you some idea - like the survey of college guys that found a third would commit sexual assault if they knew they would get away with it. That sense of male entitlement to your female body is a constant refrain of our culture. But it isn't really those big things. Not really. It's a lifetime of little things.

But like I said, as bad as I think people are...I know we can all also be something better. Which is why I get all frustrated.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #90
101. Thanks for your effort.
To explain where I'm coming from, I see your perception as one of a culture, not of a gender or sex.
What concerns me most is the placing of blame on men globally - as if it's a strictly physiological issue - rather than a cultural issue.
I'm well aware that ours is a patriarchal society, but unless one believes that the members of that society are inherently 'good' enough to effect positive change, there is no viable solution in sight.
I'd love for you to remember that just as women may have lifelong struggles of self-actualization in this fucked up culture, so may the men you're communicating with here.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #101
107. It isn't just "a" culture...
how many societies are there on this planet where men don't subjugate women to some extent? I now it isn't nearly as bad here in the US as it is in other places. When you see men doing it on a global scale...it's hard not to blame you all as a group. Which isn't fair to some of you...I acknowledge that.

The problem is that most men do not appear to be actively working to end the patriarchal system that harms many of them as well. I struggle with understand the psychology of that. I'd be interested in your take on why men who are hurt by the system continue to support it.

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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #45
75. most of the men I know are good, caring guys
I have met some who are not, but the "good guys" strongly outnumber the bad.


Yes, there is plenty of sexism - I have experienced it in my own life. But I think the poster raises a legitimate question.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Then your question was asked and answered
Why then the "I...I....I...." and "sometimes you wouldn't know it"? Why absolutely nothing in your post that responds to the question you asked and the answer I gave? WE ARE ASKING FOR YOUR HELP.

Do you talk to your friends about violence against women? Do you contribute financially to causes that support women? Do you volunteer to help women's shelters? No one is accusing YOU. This is not about YOU. It is about women who are in danger. It is about the death of 4 little girls and the sexual molestation of others.

YOU are not the men who did these things. WHY NOT? Was it how you were raised? Who raised you? What did they teach you? What do you think could have gone wrong with these men and what can we possibly do to fix it? If you don't know, say so. Otherwise, the rest of us are going to continue to search for the answers to these questions.
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QuestionAll... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. good serious post. am awaiting johnnie for his reply. nt
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Me too. eom
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. Ok, I'll try
As for the "I...I....I.." you said "Only YOU can understand why YOU DON'T think the way some (many?) men think about women." So I followed up your Yous with my Is.

"Do you talk to your friends about violence against women? Do you contribute financially to causes that support women? Do you volunteer to help women's shelters?"

I would say that in my 42 years, yes I have discussed violence against women with my friends. I have made my thoughts known to any man that I thought might be acting violent and even though I am 5'5", those men listened. Contribute financially? Not really, I have helped my sisters out financially and such considering they both married idiots who they divorced and they don't help as much as they should. I help them with their children and have taken up a bit of the father's role when I can. As for doing anymore financially, I am single and own a house and hardly make enough to support myself. It doesn't mean that I would never contribute to any such causes.

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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. And the second half?
Which is, of course, the reason women are asking the questions:

"YOU are not the men who did these things. WHY NOT? Was it how you were raised? Who raised you? What did they teach you? What do you think could have gone wrong with these men and what can we possibly do to fix it? If you don't know, say so. Otherwise, the rest of us are going to continue to search for the answers to these questions."
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. I'll repost what I said in my OP
"There are a lot of people on this planet and there have been billions more in the past. There are trillions of outside influences that help to form each persons personalities and stimulate their thought patterns.

Each person on this planet (that is men and women) are born individuals. They are each raised differently, live in different situations, learn at different speeds, have different interests and become who they are in a lot of different ways. It is completely impossible to generalize people based on male and female yet so many people try."




Heck, maybe by asking the few men here on DU, you might end up solving the answer to a question that is world-wide for hundreds of years, but it seems like a long shot. Why am I not the man who did these things? Because I am just not like that. It isn't one thing and there is no cut and dry answer. My brother and I were raised by the same parents at roughly the same time, we are still two different people. I have no answer for you as to what makes a person do what they do, not any answer that would only take up a few paragraphs anyway.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #47
83. So you don't have any answers
Thanks. I can move on now to try and find an answer from someone else who might.
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #83
96. Yes, thank you for moving on
My post was to ask for answers from you and you had none so you turned this thread into something about you. Thanks for playing.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
46. Again with the men only frame.
NO thoughts on broadening it to HUMAN aspects, but no, you want to put it squarely on Men's shoulders only. And you say you are being respectful when you are asking for help.

It's all about men for you, and nothing else. That is the problem the OP has with the trend on DU. The frame that it's somehow MEN, and no other factor, that is the cause of all that's wrong with society, and even if there are other circumstances, it's all built on a foundation of the already convicted guilt of men. That is your frame, and it's a rigged game you are playing, and most of us men do not want to play this game by your rigged rules.

And no, your's was not a thoughtful response, as your cheerleading squad propagates. It started of with your fixation that men are at fault somehow, and that is simplistic, and not worth responding to.
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cenacle Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. he sounds serious enough to me...
I remember back in '92 coming to grad school in Boston, English Lit M.A. program, hearing the term "dead white male" in reference to Shakespeare, Dickens, etc. I thought it was a joke, but I heard it over and over. The program was filled with women who hated men, and lesbians who hated men even more (I mention the lesbians particularly because they put their sexual identity up front in how they presented themselves, their ideas, their biases, their allegiances).

My friend M and I, both young caucasian males, discussed at length in private why we felt in our classes this hate, both in the the general discussions, and in how books were debated. No answers. How does perpetuating hate and prejudice promote love and tolerance? I have no idea.

Dr. King and the few of his visionary kind did not respond to hate and brutality based on color, gender, sexual identity, ethnicity, with more hate and brutality. They argued for tolerance and understanding. Dr. King was an African American Christian male, but these aspects of him did not limit who he spoke to, or for, or who he tried to connect to, or understand. I find him a model to admire.

I think Western society distorts all of us for its use, for its gain. We are divided up by gender, by race, by religion, by country, by income, by language, divided and kept fighting each other like dogs in a cage. That's how we all seem to me: dogs in a cage. I have always felt more in common with other working class folks than any really rich person, but then again this breaks down because some rich folks try to use their fortunes to help the world, while some of working class backgrounds are drowned in the prejudices and small-minded thinking they were brought up with.

So whatever I say here, it breaks down. I can only resort to another person I admire, Timothy Leary, who said, "Think for yourself, and question authority." And add that in any situation, no matter how the person in front of you seems easily comprehensible by looks, by accent, by dress, it's not true. There's more to every last one of us than it seems. I struggle with the issues addressed here as much as anyone, it's impossible not to living in a city as I do, but I try to be part of the solution.

It's as much the task of human beings to figure out how to live with each other more kindly and more intimately, and more successfully for the last of us, as it is for us to do our part to care-take the planet we share with others, and find in our own private souls some measure of peace and understanding about why we are here, and what to do about it.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
38. His questions weren't out of line. Your's is.
You start with, get in the middle of, and end any discussion with the only one that you can frame the guilt of your debate opponents before the discussion starts...gender.

Reframe the debate, and you will get better answers. Start with "Why are men..." and walk down a road to nowhere. If you are truly asking for help in understanding, then stop trying to tell us you have it all figured out.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. You are replying to a poster who never asked the question you infer


"Start with "Why are men..."" Sorry, never did.

The only questions my post asked are: "Why is the question being asked?", "How do we stop terrorism?" and "How do we stop violence against women?"
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #43
63. Nice try dodging.
It's not your questions, it's your FRAME of those questions. They imply that men are at fault before the discussion begins. If I may quote you...

...that elevates them and demeans women affects them. Only YOU can understand why YOU DON'T think the way some (many?) men think about women. Women aren't raised in the same way so we don't have the insight as to what pressures you in society. We are asking for your help.

Why is the question being asked? Because we can't address a problem if we haven't identified it's source. How do we stop terrorism? Many Democrats believe that we stop it by understanding and addressing its cause. How do we stop violence against women? Same answer.


"Same amswer" implies that it's all the same to you. Men (nice disclaimer on the "some")are terrorists and if we solve that, we'll solve violence against women. Nifty frame there.

As to the question being asked, you are not honest enough to ask the right one. You've linked a problem with a false conclusion, and are searching for validation of that conclusion. You want to focus on the fault of men instead. You don't really want to know how to stop violence against women. All you want to know is what to do about men in general (since this is your conclusion to all violence against women), as if that false solution will provide you with answers....which leads me to the OPs supposed transgression of making a point by satire...the end result of your very frame of this question will ultimately lead to drastic measures on men, drugs, behavioral modification, and even possibly castration. You set this up, he is only looking far down your slippery slope.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #63
88. You're full of shit and you know it.
""Same amswer" implies that it's all the same to you. Men (nice disclaimer on the "some")are terrorists and if we solve that, we'll solve violence against women. Nifty frame there."

NO. Same answer means same answer - before we can fix something we have to understand the cause of it. Nifty bullshit there.

Man you just can't get past your own hate to believe that (some) women might actually want to try and fix the problems we face, yes, often at the hands of men.

Sorry, my posts, my questions here were sincere. You can believe me or not. I don't care.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #88
98. Then stop pulling the weed from the stalk.
and go for the root. You just might find that it's not "men" that is the cause of the problems, whether men are chief perps on violence or not. I have no hate, what I have is anger that men are the problem to everything, and that to understand men is to understand the problems. This is in essence what you are asking, no matter how you deny it. Men are just the stalk.

Here's what your frame looks like to me ... Cavuto: Why do Democrats Hate America? You first Ed Gillespie.

I don't doubt at all your sincerety to fix problems. You are on a good site like this for a reason. I just doubt the question framing you are asking is going to win you any meaningful solutions. And it's too bad that you said you don't care, because I think you do.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
105. That's a far stronger claim than it looks at first glance
Edited on Tue Oct-03-06 02:40 PM by Donald Ian Rankin

and I don't think it's true.

You say

"Only men can understand how being raised in a society that elevates them and demeans women affects them"

The claim that the only possible valid knowledge is first-hand knowledge is one you're far from alone in making, but I think it's a foolish one. I think it's possible for a woman to make a very accurate guess at what it's like to be a man in the society they were raised in, and vice versa.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. Well, for me, personally.
I was raised by a very powerful, liberal couple who took education extremely seriously as a way to a better life not just for their four children, but also for the world.

I was raised in the 60s, 70s. It was never an option for me not to have the same advantages as my brothers. I was the only one of my parents' friends daughters who attended four year college.

The other females in their circle were encouraged to go to secretarial school. It enraged my magna cum laude mother.


I have always felt equal to men. In fact, I think sometimes I scare them a bit because I'm not demure or retiring like the perception or misperception requires.

I hope I am raising my own daughters to be strong. I KNOW we are raising our son to respect women.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. Nice rant.
Mind if I stay and watch? :popcorn:
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. Any deviation from the norm is newsworthy
guy loves his family, works hard, saves money, never hits any family member etc...not news

guy kills the family...news

What's "in the news" gets discussed, and people naturally have predispostitons..those come out when heinous crimes are discussed..

human nature at work :(
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Exiled in America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
15. Society is the problem.
There is nothing inherrent in being born "male" that makes one predisposed to any particular behavior. However, put that same person in this society, and you have a lot of depersonalizing, devaluing, objectiving, and alienating messages that in the right mixture, can and do lead to this kind of behavior.

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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. But the problem is world-wide
We can try to blame Hollywood, or religion or just about anything, but it is hard to pinpoint it to any one thing because it has been something that has been going on for centuries and in all parts of the world.

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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. can we maybe actually blame
patriarchy on men? I know...what a silly thought. *snort*
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Agriculture
If I could, I'd pinpoint it to that.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. Agriculture and the rise of the city-state...
which led to standing armies (composed of and led by men), constant warfare, and the creation of new religions (such as Judaism) with specifically male priestly castes, et cetera.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #36
51. Factually incorrect
Neolithic people were much more violent than mankind nowadays.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. And exactly how is eight or ten thousand years ago 'nowadays'?
And how does tribal warfare compare to warfare between standing armies of city-states with specific goals of territorial conquest and extermination? Sure, tribal warfare was almost constant, too, but it's hardly the same thing.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. But the rate of death was much higher back then
Interpersonal violence (now called crimes) was also higher.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Evidence please? nt
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #61
70. see #68 below
It is commonly accepted in the anthropological community.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #58
87. You manage to completely miss my main point, anyway...
which was that the rise of the city-state and the creation of standing armies led to a centralised, structured, and highly-organised society with men in dominant positions of power.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #87
95. And you missed mine
People are safer in centralized societies.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #95
102. Until you put them next to each other. ;)
Especially if they all believe they have the One Right Way to Live.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #95
104. Which really has nothing whatever to do with anything I was saying.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. I don't think so.
Just look at the thousands of nearly neolithic cultures that exist today.
Low-level tribal warfare is a far cry from our culture's policy of total eradication or assimilation of enemies.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. Noble savage myth
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4757861.stm >

"But the true scale of the violence still remains unclear due to the nature of the evidence, say the authors. In other simple, small-scale societies, the incidence of death as a result of violence ranges from 8-33%."

No civilized society in memory has losses continually to war or crime in the 8-33% death rate. Think about that - one person in three dying from violence.

Hobbes was right.

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #68
81. Yes, that myth needs to be put to rest, however
I'm not sure that the degree of violence in a particular society should be measured by only referring to violent death rates. Also, the article is making a statement about Neolithic Britons, not all human cultures on the planet. As the article says:
The researchers suspect that what they are seeing is violence at the local and regional level rather than large-scale warfare involving large sections of the country.


What would our culture's death rate due to violence be without the benefit of medical advances?
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #81
91. 8-33% rate is for similar cultures, worldwide
I don't have other studies handy but that is the accepted rate nowadays.

When medicine improves so do weapons.

I think really violent folks have been deselected in a civilized society (up to recently most murders were met with death penalty which tends to cut down on passing genes along).
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
53. Civilization isn't too civilized.
Seriously, though the creation of the city and the clumping together of large amounts of people in small areas who don't know each other and can't trust one another as oppossed to the Hunter Gatherer tribal existance...
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
72. The idea of civilization isn't bad, but our particular execution of it
doesn't appear to be sustainable.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
44. Not agriculture, totalitarian agriculture.
Sustainable agriculture was practiced by many hundreds of cultures before ours began practicing totalitiarian agriculture in the Fertile Crescent(Iraq) about 10,000 years ago. It's not a difference in technology, it's a difference of mindset which casts humans as the divinely appointed conquerors and rulers of the world.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
50. To be truthful, society (read civilization) is the answer
Folks in neolithic societies were substantially more violent than folks living in civilization.

Do you want to see a really violent society? See the Yanomamos.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
18. Don't let the male-bashers get you down, that's my suggestion.
They are just judging an entire group of people based on the actions of a few.

:grouphug:
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
23. It's a question of cultural evolution v. genetics.
Are the genes that every human has today (born of a struggle of Hobbesian propotion) All Against All the cause of the violent behavior of the Male of Homo Sapiens Sapiens? Or is it a question of education, tolerance , good fatherly role models, movies, etc...

Obviously, the impact of nature/nuture is different on each individual, but can some basic fundamental underpinning of enculturalion or education produce a well adjusted individual?

This debate has been raging since the early 1800s at least. IMO, getting rid of poverty would help. and

Additionally, much blame in America can be fostered on class war including the Men V. Women violence. IMO what does a show like Hugh Hefner's Playmates next door show men who watch it? It shows them that available young women can be taken from them unless they accumulate wealth and power and that Men with wealth and Power will dominate attractive, young women. and this leads back into the cultural v. physical problem...
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
27. listen to me johnnie. i am as much on the men side as the woman
Edited on Tue Oct-03-06 12:37 PM by seabeyond
both genders are getting fucked. andit willonly get worse from what i am seeing with my two boys a very young 9 and 11. i have watched the girls going thru elementary and beyond use the empowerment we women are trying to give them in self confidence as abuse ot our boys. it is not healthy and good what i am seeing in our youngest of girls and asking all moms of daughters to please, as you build your daughters confidence also teach them their responsibility in this whole thing. to treat male right..... otherwise all the confidence in the world will not work if it is female empowered over male

i am seeing boys at the yongest of age being taught our girls are sluts. not women. but our girls. it is in our culture, allowing the girls their sexual freedom.... but it is not the natural development of our youth, we are giving youth our adult version and it is fuckin them up

moms are not at home, and many in my generation are me me me, still not adult,this is not giving a good example at home of women. (generalization. not a swipe against all women)

and many homes are without father. both the boy needs to learn to be a man in older childhood, and the girl really needs dad in younger age 3-6 and they arent getting it

our generation of adults are screwing up in so many ways..... the raising of both genders. even well intentioned adults

further, he have the country in an old testament mentality of patriarchy and old testament, men the boss and i think this is the backlash of the female empowering of a couple generations prior.

not to mention just the sweep of the fundamentalist christian across the nation and woman has her place.

how is that

i can give you more.

love you johnnie. we woman need the guys, as suredly as they need us. but battle there is with the woman. we all need to pitch in here. cannot anyone person do it alone
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. "how is that"
Ummmm good. :)

I didn't really think about the kids. I have 5 nephews and really, they seem to be very respectful of their friends that are girls. In fact most of their friends are girls.
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Danieljay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
29. Interestingly enough, most of us are raised by women...
Isn't that ironic?
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
33. I agree with your post. There is an underlying problem...
Edited on Tue Oct-03-06 01:02 PM by Texas Explorer
with the male psyche. I contend that it's a result of a disparity between evolution and technology. That is to say, humans are out-teching their evolutionary development.

I'm not talking about technology of the space exploration, computer, or even indoor plumbing kind. I'm talking about technology defined as "the application of knowledge to meet the goals, goods, and services desired by people". By this definition, "technology" began thousands of years ago. For those thousands of years, and for the millions preceding it, the male has always been the dominating gender.

But, suddenly, within the past 100 years (a hair's breadth in geological time) of all of human history, females began to assert themselves and now men have to answer to females for the smallest details and actions of their lives. The male instinct is to dominate females and to spread his genes far and wide. Today, human consciousness and intelligence has outpaced the instincts males have possessed for millions of years.

Evolution itself has proven that you can't toss a monkey wrench at it and expect it to adjust in a controlable way. It had an asteroid tossed at it 65,000,000 years ago and because of that, here we are today. We picked up the ball from the dinosaurs and ran with it for millions of years and now, suddenly, society attempts to control the still-instinctive male dominance genetics with laws and shame.

The good thing is that we are indeed thinking beings and most of us can control ourselves and our instincts. However, some males are unable to control their evolutionary instincts and dominance over women, the fact may simply be that he is acting out not ciminally or otherwise wrongly, but naturally.

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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
73. Good post
I agree with what you say and I really don't think enough of this information is studied. I think that some things aren't considered when the question of "why do men do things" is brought up.

I personally don't feel like killing anyone, or anything like that. I have no hatred in my heart to speak of and I do OK living as I do. But I will say that hearing for your whole life that the "white man" was the cause for just about everything wrong in the world must play havoc on some men's mind that aren't as stable as I am :)
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
76. Show me your evidence...
that males have always been the dominant gender in humans for millions of years.

Women have been agitating for their rights for a lot longer than the last 100 years...it's there if you read beyond the history written by men.

And I have no sympathy for men who think they have to answer for every detail of their lives to a woman (though I doubt that's as pervasive as you seem to imply). Women have had, and still often have, every detail of the life, appearance, sexuality, behaviour, you name it, nitpicked to death or controlled and decided by the men around them. We spent how long as nothing but property with little or no control of our own lives? There are how many societies around the world where women are still property? So my basic response to this point is "oh wah".
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
34. the problem of the persecuted white male....it breaks my heart on
a regular basis...


:eyes:
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Ahhh... racist misandry
It warms my heart.
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
42. I appreciate the post and I'll try to answer honestly
What bothers me the most is that too many men who think they support women then offer excuses for men's abuses towards women. I see too many apologize for abuse, support the male, and blame the woman. We have an epidemic of male violence towards women. I live in fear, as I've felt my whole life, that a man will attack me. We can analyze that fear and blame me, but the reality is that I share the fear with most women. We live in fear of men. It's taught early and reinforced with personal experience. I've posted before that everyone of my closest women friends were raped or had an attempted rape during college. Since then I've been in work situations where women pushed for protection during late hours and the men laughed us off. You're paranoid, why do you fear men, you're insane. Yeah, right.


Until we address this problem and the unfairness of it, then we really can't discuss how unfair it is to the men in our lives who would never be abusive, attack, or be disrespectful towards women.

I just don't think non-violent men realize their responsibility in all of this. Until you support us, then you are part of the problem.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
62. are you truly outraged? seriously, I'm curious nt
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Outraged?
Do I come across as outraged?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Not to me, you don't.
Hang in there. ;)
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. OK maybe not the right word. Are you truly fed up with white male bashing?
Do you truly feel discriminated against? Shunned by society? Like a second or third class citizen?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #67
85. It looks to me like the OP was asking for solutions.
Have you spotted any being offered?
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #85
94. Actually, I believe he was looking for answers
and yes, I tried to offer some. He and I actually had a conversation about it.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #94
106. Answers, solutions, what's the difference?
I don't think "Too bad you're not really interested in hearing - or helping" is a great answer.
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #67
92. Honestly, no I don't
At one time I felt like I was in a no win situation. That was back in my early 20s or so. I am in my 40s now and I can look back on how I felt and I can form some opinions on what I think, but at this time in my life I don't feel it myself.

I started school in 1969 and graduated in 1982. My childhood was witness to the civil rights movement, the equal rights movement and a lot of other social movements that changed considerably during that time. I knew about the Hough riots here in Cleveland, I knew about Viet nam, I saw the body counts during dinner, I saw the assassination attempt on George Wallace and that was just in my 5 - 7 year old mind. I remember the woman's movement in the early to mid 70s when bras were being burnt and "Maude" was on TV..lol. I knew what it was about. I guess what I am explaining here is that my formative years were spent during some of this country's most radical changes and I knew no better.

Now also, you have to understand that as a white male being born into this new world, there was always talk of how the white man killed all the American Indians, how the white man was responsible for slavery, how the white man has held women down for so long and so on. It was a little confusing back then to try to figure out why I was a honky or what the heck a chauvinist was.

Now you have to remember that this was my mind at 8, 9 10 years old or so. My parents came from a different time so the world wasn't the same for me as it was for them. Also they didn't shove meds down our throats back then and you were to figure out life as it came and not be sheltered from it. There was no sheltering. President Nixon and Watergate, racial riots, war protests, body counts, early anti-drug campaigns, pollution, lines at gas stations to get gas, energy shortages and so on. That is what I remember about my childhood.

I know I am going off topic, but I wanted to kind of give my point on where I came from to show a little about what framed my conscious as a child. And to top this off, I got to graduate from high school with no way to go to college and what was waiting for me in the work world was Ronald Reagenomics...beat that for sucking..LOL.

I'm not saying anything bad about my life, I really dug it and still do, but what I am saying here is that no, I don't feel discriminated against. I probably could whine about anything that happened in my past and expect everyone to change to make my life better, but I am over that way of thinking. Life moves on and if you don't move with it you get your legs caught in the cracks and you trip and fall.

Sorry about the yappin'
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
69. Sexual assaults have been HALVED since 1993!
How? Well, no one can say for sure, but making the legal system tougher on rapists and getting the word out, via laws and schools and colleges, that it's NOT OKAY to rape women seems to have done some good.

Men are not "bad," but they are biologically prone to be more violent. Personally, I don't want to change the biology of men (I love men as they are) BUT we can adapt our society to simply NOT permit certain behaviors.

Call me an idealist, but I think that some social problems can be solved via legislation and education.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
93. With all ONE of those threads?
:eyes: pffft!
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #93
97. Huh?
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. Yesterday's male bashing thread didn't happen.
Don't you know that silly? Once they go to the archives, the other 75 male bashing threads of 2006 also go down the memory hole.
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. Yeah, I was gonna say..
I saw at least three in the last 24 hours.
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The empressof all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
108. Locking
Flamebait
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