Am I missing somtheing here?

[ForFuxakes]

I have been reading the threads now for about an hour and I can not believe the DUers that are threatning to NOT vote for their democratic candidate b/c of the torture bill!

I abhore this bill...GET IT! But I also understand that if we don not have more "D's" than "R's" at the end of the day Nov 7th, then we will have sealed our fate!

Those who have said that they will not vote for the Dem candidate, I ask this...WHO then will you vote for? The repug, or worse yet no vote at all? Give the power back to the dems so that we can control the agenda, committee seats and have supena power to then bring down this neo-con nightmare!

Come On people...Read Sun Tzu..."If his forces are united, separate them."

Do you not see that this is exactly what Rove and the Neo-cons want...


http://www.kimsoft.com/polwar1.htm

[waiting for hope]

1. October Surprise?

I agree with you - if the Dems can take back control, this can be reversed.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. Not all of it.

For example the retroactive grant of immunity is irreversible once it is law (no ex post facto.)

But how can it be reversed if we do not have the courage to stand up and vote against it? On what basis do you believe that a Democratic majority will actually undo this legislation?

As others have asked, what is your line in the sand?


I will vote D in november but I have lost all faith. Change will only come from massive popular resistance to the current system. Change will only come after there is a crackup on the order of '29.

[Hamlette]

22. if there is no ex post facto...how can this bill retroactively legalize

torture that was illegal before?

[Warren Stupidity]

30. Ex post facto only works in one direction.

The prohibition is against punishing you for something you did that was legal in the past after it is made illegal. There is no prohibition against legalizing something that was illegal and then not punishing you for it.

[waiting for hope]

34. I have a line and they have crossed

it many times in the last six years - No Child Left Behind, the Patriot Act, The Medicare/Medicare Bill, ad nausea. But my beliefs still are with the Democratic Party - Pro-Choice, Pro-Worker, Pro-Middle Class etc. As my user names suggests, I am waiting for that day. And I agree with you as well, "Change will only come from massive popular resistance to the current system. Change will only come after there is a crackup on the order of '29." But laws have changed before in the past - Women's Right to Vote, Prohibition, etc. Those who voted are in the category of believing the Wing Nut rhetoric of Dems being soft on terror and defense. These are troubling times in which we live in and stupid, asinine things are being done. We need control of the house and senate in order to start setting some things right and back to rational, logical thinking.

[Deep13]

2. Your logic has a certain logic to it.

This bill would not be an issue if Ds controlled the committee chairs.

[Atman]

3. If this bill passes, our fate is already sealed.

Make no mistake about it. Any democrat who votes for this bill simply does not deserve to be representative of United States citizens. If this bill passes, that (D) or (R) will mean NOTHING...unless you don't mind pinning a big felt D to your clothes whenever you leave the house.

.

[ForFuxakes]

7. Don't you get it...

BUSH HAS BEEN TORTURING!

This bill is simply his way of covering his privilaged pimpled-white ass! Do you honestly think that if this bill is defeated that he will simply say oh well...i guess I can not torture any more....boo hoo! BULLSHIT! Since when does he or anyone in this admin care about the LAW or the CONSTITUTION!

This is a wedge issue to make the Dems look weak on terra! Open your eyes people and look at the big picture!
:grr: :nuke:

[Hamlette]

19. thanks ForFux

you nailed it. But don't dispair....I've been at DU long enough to know many people are just blowing off steam...they don't really mean it.

but you are right. It is/was a wedge issue and the "can you ever vote for a dem if he/she voted for torture?" is EXACTLY what the GOP is trying to do with this bill.

We won't fall for it.

(I'll add, I'm old enough to remember tons of similar stuff over the years. Dems gotta learn to stick together. We had a majority in congress for so long we forgot how important it is and how to get it. Let any yahoo say what they must to get elected as a dem in their district. The prize is taking back one or both houses.)

[SammyWinstonJack]

36. This is just a way for him to cover his ass for past torture, he'll

continue, I agree no matter how Congress votes. He threatens members of Congress to get his way, has and will continue to do so. Only way to stop him is to get him out of power. IMPEACH HIM AND CHENEY TOO!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

11. Hi, my name is Ralph Nader, and I'm running for President.

Perhaps you would like a pamphlet explaining my positions on the issues.

[Bandit]

35. Well you certainly were right in what you said last time around

It certainly has gotten worse but I'm not sure it will ever get better. There truly is not much difference between the Parties it would seem.:shrug: I wish you would have won...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

37. Ya.

Tell ALL of the DEMOCRATS who voted AGAINST this legislation, the VAST MAJORITY, that there is NO DIFFERENCE.

Way to smear the whole fucking party, dude.

[Bandit]

39. Do you know how to read?

or do the words "it would seem" have no meaning to you? Get a grip....

[babylonsister]

14. And what would prevent Dems from reversing this if they regain

power? The OP is just reminding people to vote and I agree. I'm not giving up that easily.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

17. Nothing would stop them.

And nothing would likely stop the Supreme Court from ruling vast pieces of it unconstitutional. But DU has the attention span of a fruit fly on some days, and this is one of them.

[babylonsister]

24. Thanks for that. My glass remains half full; I can't fathom the

alternative.

[diamidue]

33. Totally agree.

The Democrats should be speaking loudly, VERY loudly against this. Drawing a line in the sand. You have to stand for SOMETHING people! The Dem leadership is completely clueless, IMO.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

4. I'm At The Point Of Not Caring

Perhaps this is the only way to wake people the Fuck up. Strip away every single one of our freedoms, to the point where being an American no longer contains the benefits we once had.

Then it will be too late, and we can all recall fondly the freedoms we had back in the 20th century.

[ShortnFiery]

5. Our Constitution trumps Sun Tzu ... we lose our Liberties there may be

no election come November. :(

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[annabanana]

28. hooray for irrelevance!. . . . . . . . . .n/t

[corkhead]

9. You are right. If we become single issue voters, we will NEVER

have a candidate we'll be happy with. I am a big fan of the Art of Strategy also. I am very unhappy about this bill, but I see why some dems voted like they did. We can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We need a majority to affect change.

[in_cog_ni_to]

10. We MUST HAVE the Dems in the MAJORITY in Congress to undo

all the damage these bastards have done. They can rewrite the torture bill, the bankruptcy bill, the Medicare bill and get us the hell out of Iraq.....not to mention they WILL INVESTIGATE THE WAR CRIMES. I will be voting straight DEMOCRATIC ticket in Novemeber (always have) and I hope eveyone here does the same. This is NOT the time to be standing on "principles." Our country is seriously at stake. Our civil rights are seriously at stake.

[ForFuxakes]

16. AMEN Brother!!

what good are principles when you have no power to affect change!

[originalpckelly]

12. Ah, but grasshopper, what if a part of the "majority" votes with Pukes?

What good is a majority, if they vote for the opposing side's legislation? You are not a member of the Democrat party simply because you say so, you actually have to act like a Democrat.

I don't want all Democrats to think like one, and it is a good thing when we disagree on most matters, but when it comes to torture and basic human rights we must be unified. Those Democrats from conservative areas are playing politics with our deepest held beliefs, ones that they surely do believe in or they would just be Republicans.

[originalpckelly]

18. So, yes, you are missing something grasshopper.

Something very important.

[ForFuxakes]

21. Hello!

SUBPOENA POWER!

I truly believe in my heart of heart that when the truth is told, there will be no hiding from it!

The Truth Will Set You Free!

[originalpckelly]

27. What if they don't want to look bad...

and don't vote with the rest of the Democrats to subpoena documents/people?

Haven't they already said, "no impeachment"? Why shouldn't I believe them?

[ForFuxakes]

31. Look Bad?

To Who? Drop the straw man arguments please! My God lets get them in power and then judge them by what they DO instead of what they MIGHT do.

[originalpckelly]

32. I hope you are right.

I really do.

[Auggie]

13. Like it or not, you still have to vote democratic.

That's the only way to change anything.

[Individualist]

25. I'm not a cultist

I don't "have to" vote for anyone if I don't want, and if the choice is between a war criminal dem and a repug, then I'll write in "none of the above".

[ForFuxakes]

29. Then thank you for your conscience

Wright me from the gulag in 08 and let me know how the gruel is...

[Finder]

15. If this passes, the political process does NOT work...

and we can be officially called a dictatorship.

[mmonk]

20. My dem rep. voted the right way (against torture).

My repuke senators I know not to even try and influence them (though one was open to hear me out on the Bolton renomination). If my dem rep had voted for this I would still support him or her this election, but this election only and no more (I just wouldn't vote at all in the future, but instead help someone else outside my district).

[Lone_Star_Dem]

23. Primary elections are the place to deal with this NOT general elections

That's how I see it anyway.

[brentspeak]

26. k & r

[magpie]

38. More 'D's than 'R's?

I crave more than that now. If I want, at the end of the day, simply more 'D's - I can sign up for advanced calculus and ditch class or something. Or eat alphabet soup on Nov.7. "D" used to stand for something but it never stood for torture, or the lack of habeas corpus. I am not anti-Dem. Just not any old 'D'. I have hurt people in my life by enabling. I have to take responsibility for what I can , now. I am in non-support mode right now. I don't think many here are in opposition to the Democratic Party. I think it goes like this- support, non-support, and then, opposition. Most of us are not in opposition, yet.

edited to say - I wasn't clear on this. I support the Democratic Party. And MOST of our Democratic leaders. Most. I was speaking against those that voted for the detainee bill, among other things. Why I don't post much - tend to get ahead of myself or leave out key....