How Does The Faith Based Core Reconcile Torture?

[spanone]

Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't noticed any church leaders, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Methodist or otherwise, speaking out against torture. Have I missed something? Are these people comfortable with the concept of torturing people?

[madmusic]

1. Well, they like the death penalty.

Why not torture?

[Sapphire Blue]

24. See post #16

[WCGreen]

2. You saw what they did to Jesus....

Those bastards deserve everthing they get...

I think that would be how the typical perverter of the teachings of Jesus would put it...

[ComerPerro]

3. they are hypocrites and they don't give a shit

[spanone]

5. Do they actually compromise their religious beliefs for their politics?

I mean, how can you care so much for a fetus and so little for a grown fetus?

[Sapphire Blue]

25. See post #16

[Thickasabrick]

15. My sentiments exactly

[Sapphire Blue]

26. See post #16

[Sapphire Blue]

19. See post #16

[Bucky]

4. My preacher came out against it this weekend. But I'm a UU

You're right, tho. There's been a suspicious silence there. The usual suspects--Unitarian-Universalists, Quakers, Roman Catholics--have spoken up. But the thumpers are eerily quiet on this whole love-thy-enemy-as-thy-brother standard in question.

Perhaps you can know them by their lack of works, too.

[Bucky]

59. How come I'm the only person not told to see post16? Is it a party for me?

I can't wait till everyone plans my surprise party! All the details about cake and ponies must be in post #16!! Joy, joy!!

[riderinthestorm]

60. LOL!! Come by post #38 and have a beer with me. Nachos too! nt

Wow, cool. My 1000th post! Heh.

Free drinks on the house!

:woohoo:

[sandnsea]

6. They're believing it's just discomfort

Like playing rock music at Noriega. They tell themselves it's just giving somebody the shivers, not sending them into hypothermia. They make them stay up past their bedtime, not days without sleep and watever methods used in the process. *sigh*

[Sapphire Blue]

21. See post #16

[sandnsea]

61. Thanks

Excellent news! I imagine they will be drowned out by the Falwell contingent and they are the ones who are rationalizing the way I said and the ones I was referring to. It would be nice if our religious leaders took a strong stand. It is understandable to be frustrated with Dems on the issues of the last 5 years - but there are more than just political leaders in this country. Lots of folks have been intimidated into silence. It's good folks are getting their voice back, that's the important thing.

[Sapphire Blue]

7. Perhaps you've missed this...

National Religious Campaign Against Torture: http://www.nrcat.org/

Faithful America: http://www.faithfulamerica.org/article.php?id=103

The International Federation of Action by Christians for the Abolition of Torture (FIACAT): http://ww2.fiacat.org/en/

[IChing]

8. Jesus was tortured and died for your sins

The prisoner was tortured and died for his sins.

[and-justice-for-all]

41. I dont believe Jesus existed...

..But thanks for the offer.

[IChing]

55. I just answered the question that the OP said on how they would respond.

I'm sure not the hell Mel Gibson



:rofl:

[and-justice-for-all]

9. They ar e only political or will say something....

...When they feel they can benefit from it; obviously Torture isnt important to them nor will they get anything out of it. Total fucking hypocrites, PRO-LIFE and PRO-TORTURE....Makes nosence at all. Thats Fundmenalist for ya.

[Sapphire Blue]

20. See post #16

[MannyGoldstein]

10. Remember Burning Witches Alive?

It's amazing the evil crap that bizarre interpretations of religions can get people to do.

It's also amazing what good people can do in the name of religion.

O Magnum Mysterium!!!

[Poiuyt]

11. I was talking to a Freeper about it when it first started to come out in

Abu Gharaib (sp?). He seemed to think that it wasn't that bad, more like frat pranks. He thought it was much ado about nothing.

[sufrommich]

27. That's because

Rush Limbaugh dropped it down to "frat prank" status for freepers,and Rush has got talent on loan from God!

[LostInAnomie]

12. "It's not torture!"

"...and if it is it's necessary to protect America!"

[SammyWinstonJack]

13. You expect religious leaders to be against torture?

:rofl: History proves otherwise, doesn't it?

[Sapphire Blue]

22. See post #16

[pat_k]

14. If Bush says it's not torture, it's not. . .

Life is simple when you are a belief person.

No pesky conflicts to resolve.

When your beliefs define your reality, there is no reality out there to test them against.

Because your belief of the moment defines your reality of the moment, you have no problem moving through a series of conflicting, even diametrically opposed beliefs, such as:

• If X did Y to me, X would be torturing me.


• Bush says doing Y to suspected terrorists isn't torture, so it isn't.


• If Y is torture, it's OK because they are inhuman terrorists.


• Suppose the only proof they are terrorists came from subjecting the person to Y? Bush says Y isn't torture, so we aren't talking about the kind of tortured confessions they got during the Salem Witch Trials.

And round and round they go.

(If this sounds to you like a form of insanity, you are right.)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. Actually, there's a whole Bush-worshipping subculture that

meets every definition of a cult.

[Sapphire Blue]

16. Religious Leaders Urge U.S. to Ban Torture

Religious Leaders Urge U.S. to Ban Torture
By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, June 13, 2006; Page A04

Twenty-seven religious leaders, including megachurch pastor Rick Warren, Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel and Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick of Washington, have signed a statement urging the United States to "abolish torture now -- without exceptions."

The statement, being published in newspaper advertisements starting today, is the opening salvo of a new organization called the National Religious Campaign Against Torture, which has formed in response to allegations of human rights abuse at U.S. detention centers in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick is one of 27 religious leaders and Nobel laureates to urge the U.S. government to end the practice of torture. The statement is being published in newspaper ads starting today. (J. Scott Applewhite - AP)

Titled "Torture is a Moral Issue," the statement says that torture "violates the basic dignity of the human person" and "contradicts our nation's most cherished values." "Nothing less is at stake in the torture abuse crisis than the soul of our nation. What does it signify if torture is condemned in word but allowed in deed?" it asks.

The signers come from a broad range of denominations and include notable religious conservatives, such as the Rev. Ted Haggard, president of the National Association of Evangelicals; Archbishop Demetrios, primate of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America; and the Rev. William J. Byron, former president of Catholic University.

Continued @ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/12/AR2006061201484.html

National Religious Campaign Against Torture: http://www.nrcat.org /

Faithful America: http://www.faithfulamerica.org/article.php?id=103

The International Federation of Action by Christians for the Abolition of Torture (FIACAT): http://ww2.fiacat.org/en /

[riderinthestorm]

38. 27 religious leaders in the US is nothing (NRCAT)

A drop in the bucket. Besides, they did the big ad, and then it appears from their website that they did relatively little after the ad.

The second website is a link to concerned private individuals, certainly not anything like the religious powerhouses that SHOULD be involved in anti-torture activism if they really cared.

The third link is to a group that is primarily working in Africa and overseas. Their American link is to 4 individuals in Canada.

I'm not seeing a huge groundswell of support for anti-torture activism on behalf of the religious community in the US, if these links are the indicator.

[Sapphire Blue]

43. The National Council of Churches is "Nothing"???

Faithful America

Tell Congress: Bush Torture Bill must be defeated : http://www.faithfulamerica.org/article.php?id=103

Who We Are

Faithful Americans include Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Baha’is, to name a few. Many express their faiths in individual ways. Yet all of us share a common bond - when it comes to government, we believe our faith does matter. Our voices are needed. Our values must be reflected in our nation’s public policies

A program of the National Council of Churches, USA, FaithfulAmerica.org is made up of persons who believe that one’s faith - however broadly or uniquely expressed - has a word to say about our nation’s government and its priorities.

http://www.faithfulamerica.org/about.php#who

NRCAT

Get Involved: http://www.nrcat.org/involvement.aspx

Who are We?

The National Religious Campaign Against Torture (NRCAT) joins people of faith committed to ensuring that the United States does not engage in torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment of anyone, without exceptions. NRCAT is a campaign of national, regional, and local religious and secular organizations. We are national denominations and faith groups, local interfaith groups and congregations, and more.

http://www.nrcat.org/about.aspx

[riderinthestorm]

46. I'm not impressed.

Look - there are enormous faith based agencies out there saying and doing nothing. Organizations that reach millions that aren't included on the list, nor are they individually speaking up.

You can diminish the Falwells or the Grahams as much as you like but they aren't out there.

CAIR isn't even on that list - the USA's largest Islamic group for example.

And I reiterate, NRCAT put out one big ad in June, and then have fallen virtually silent. They certainly aren't flooding the media with their voices at this critical time.

[Thickasabrick]

49. Thank you for pointing this out. I guess some do give a shit.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jcrowley]

18. They don't

They are into extreme authoritarianism. They don't care. Understand this. You can never reason with these people. Never.

They didn't speak out against the war either despite all the "Thou shalt not kill" sermons.

[Sapphire Blue]

23. See post #16

[Jcrowley]

29. I saw it

I'm talking about deep fundamentalists. And I could take you on a journey into places where the thought of torturing Arabs would be seen with indifference if not insistence.

[Sapphire Blue]

34. Neither you nor the OP, to which you responded, made that distinction.

[Jcrowley]

42. I'm hoping

they will also come out against the murder of Iraqis and for a War Crimes Tribunal the against those (Wolfowitz, Cheney, Zakheim, Rumsfeld, Bush et al) who ordered this commandment breaking action.

[antigop]

28. Statement from US Conference of Catholic Bishops

From the Chairman of the Committee on International Policy of the United States Conference
of Catholic Bishops:

http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/international/2006septemberlettertosenate.pdf

>>
More importantly, prisoner mistreatment compromises human dignity. A respect for the
dignity of every person, ally or enemy, must serve as the foundation of security, justice and
peace. There can be no compromise on the moral imperative to protect the basic human rights of
any individual incarcerated for any reason.
>>

[Sapphire Blue]

32. Thank you for posting this, antigop!

:hi:

[antigop]

45. You are welcome

It would be nice if this letter would show up in church bulletins.

[Rocknrule]

30. They believe that Jesus will torture our enemies forever in hell

so what's wrong with them doing it temporarily?

[Sapphire Blue]

31. See post #16

[Dem2theMax]

33. Ummmm, I think we got it. OK? nt.

:eyes:

[SammyWinstonJack]

62. !

:spray:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

35. I suppose the same way earlier "faith based" folks justified Inquisition &

burning "witches" at the stake.

This idea that people who go to church are more "moral" than those who do not is laughable, and history disproves it over and over.

[Sapphire Blue]

36. See post #16

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

37. Yes, but Elie Wiesel does not represent the core of BUSH's "faith-based"

folks. Rather, Falwell, Wildmon, Pat Robertson et al.

[riderinthestorm]

39. See post #38

:wtf:

Do ya repeat much?!

Look, your links are hardly indicative of any kind of groundswell - actually not even a tiny ripple - amongst the religious regarding torture.....

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. Thanks for the effort, Sapphire Blue

but I've been on DU long enough to know that people with strong opinions often ignore all posts that disagree with their basic worldview.

[riderinthestorm]

51. Hmm, I see her post but frankly

how many of the "faith based core" are listening to Jimmy Carter for example (one of the NRCAT letter signers)???

They aren't.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. Today's fundies (the old-style ones were indifferent to politics)

have been seriously infiltrated by the Republican party. They are kept in a total information environment and total social environment in which they are made afraid to read or watch any media that are not approved by their church authorities, and funny thing, all the approved news media, including their own weekly news magazine, are not only Republican but Bush-worshipping Republican. The megachurch is their whole social life, so they all reinforce each other.

Expecting the Republican-infiltrated fundies to criticize Bush is like expecting them to criticize Jesus. It's sickening.

But not all evangelicals are Bushbots. You must remember that.

[riderinthestorm]

56. Exactly my point. These people live in a vacuum and until their

powerhouses get in on the anti-torture efforts, I'm afraid it's just not good enough. And I'm sorry but Jimmy Carter just doesn't wash with these folks.

I know that not all evangelicals are Bushbots. But most are. I live in evangelical fundy-ville and I know for a fact that they are....

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. Or, until they are faced with evidence so overwhelming that even they

can't ignore it.

Remember the newsreel footage of German civilians being forced to tour liberated concentration camps?

[riderinthestorm]

58. 30% +/- are the brainwashed fundies who need to be reached

Unfortunately they are insulated by their powers-that-be religious leaders who DO screen their information. And they will continue to support this Admin to the bitter end I believe....

I weep that it will take touring our own torture/death chambers to awaken them (and even now there are Germans who disbelieve the Holocaust regardless of the evidence in front of their very eyes).

I wish Sapphireblue's links were far more influential but I just don't see it.

:cry:

Peace.

[Sapphire Blue]

53. Thank you for yours, as well :)

:hi:

Yes, what you said is so very true.

FYI - here's another thread:

Religious Leaders Urge U.S. to Ban Torture: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2214076

[knitter4democracy]

40. Many ignore it.

I remember shopping with my Republican evangelical MIL once and saying that I didn't want to buy anything from the Gap for my baby daughter. She asked me why, and I told her it was my issue, that I was upset about sweatshop labor. Her response still stuns me to this day: "Well, the less we know about that kind of stuff, the better, I suppose."

I would bet that she has the same attitude about torture. I find it interesting that, when I bring up anything like that, evangelicals change the subject.

[sweetheart]

44. jesus needed to be tortured

He was not pure until he was crucified.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. Does this answer your question?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20060918/pl_usnw/religious_leaders_run_full_page_ad_in_roll_call_to_tell_congress__abolish_torture_now203_xml


WASHINGTON, Sept. 18 /U.S. Newswire/ -- As both Houses of Congress consider legislation this week on the treatment on military detainees, religious leaders are calling for the elimination of torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment as part of U.S. policy in a statement to be published in the Capitol Hill newspaper Roll Call. Originally published in the New York Times on June 13, 2006, the statement will run as a full page ad in Roll Call on Tuesday, September 19.

The statement, "Torture is a Moral Issue," proclaims that torture violates the basic dignity of the human person that all religions hold dear. Shepherded by the National Religious Campaign Against Torture (NRCAT), the statement is signed by 27 national religious leaders, including Rev. Ted Haggard, president of the National Association of Evangelicals; Theodore Cardinal McCarrick, Archbishop of Washington, D.C.; Rev. Joseph Lowery, co-founder of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference; and Nobel laureates President Jimmy Carter and Elie Wiesel.

Other signatories include Dr. Rick Warren pastor and author of the runaway bestseller, The Purpose Driven Life; Rev. Bob Edgar, General Secretary of the National Council of Churches; Rabbi David Saperstein, Director of the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism; Dr. Frank Thomas, pastor and editor of The African-American Pulpit; and Dr. Sayyid Syeed, National Director of the Islamic Society of North America.
(more at link)

[Sapphire Blue]

52. Thank you for posting this, Lydia Leftcoast!

:hi: