Rangel: An attack on (CHIMPY) is an attack on all Americans...

[jefferson_dem]

REP. RANGEL BLASTS CHAVEZ: DON'T COME TO MY COUNTRY AND ATTACK MY PRESIDENT...

'You do not come into my country, my congressional district, and you do not condemn my president. If there is any criticism of President Bush, it should be restricted to Americans, whether they voted for him or not. I just want to make it abundantly clear to Hugo Chavez or any other president, but do not come to the United States and think because we have problems with our president that any foreigner can come to our country and not think that Americans do not feel offended when you offend our Chief of State'...

VIDEO LINK -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX1lBOxoJeU

[Moochy]

1. Oh brother

Nationalism is a poison... Thanks Rangel.

[oncall247]

214. Rangel is only talking about other presidents or heads of state.

Remember that. Charlie is really brilliant. He's not talking about any citizen coming to the US and criticizing Bush, just other heads of state.

[xchrom]

2. then tell your president to stop trying to overthrow

legitimately elected governments.

[DireStrike]

3. uh... what?

thats the most back-asswards thing I've heard in a while.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Maybe...

he didn't read the whole thing?

[Moochy]

10. Oh Like every other Chavez Basher around here ?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. ...

[NNN0LHI]

5. He thinks the draft would be a fine idea too

Whats that tell you?

Don

[OhioChick]

24. Good Point. n/t

[RandiRhodesArchives]

123. that he needs to switch parties!

and he can take Zell LIEbushlover with him too!

[nini]

233. you know why he says that don't you?

because he wants the rich right wingers to put up their own. It's all talk to get them pulled into the light of their hypocrisy.

[malaise]

6. Attack?

How is calling him the devil an attack. Doesn't Bushco call people terrorists with no evidence. Bush is the fugging anti-christ.

Charlie knows a Dem backlash is coming for Chavez speaking at a Baptist Church in Harlem.

Edit - add.

[ananda]

7. Umm, I didn't feel attacked..

.. I felt validated.

Chavez rocks!

[OneBlueSky]

8. when that president represents an immediate threat to world peace . . .

and, indeed, to the survival of humanity and of the planet itself, I'd say that criticism is quite appropriate -- anytime, any place, and by anyone . . .

[greenman3610]

11. I don't agree with it, but it's politically astute

my own personal opinion is that no one
would have dared this kind of disrespect
for any previous president. It's a measure of
how Bush has trashed America's world
image that this could be tolerated, much less
applauded, as it was the other day.




on a lighter note, Chavez's reference to the
lingering "odor of sulphur" from the "Devil"
made for some pretty good fart jokes on
Steph Miller's show.

[Generic Other]

12. Evil translates into many languages.

Fuck ALL BUsh apologists. I am not offended by the goddamn truth.

[feduppuke]

Here

Is the link......

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ny15_rangel/CBRSta...

Maybe it's the long way of saying, "Hey! He can't do that to our pledges." "Yeah! Only WE can do that to our pledges!"

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

31. Bullshit.

Charlie Rangel expressed his opinion. He's a good guy, and you may disagree with him, but I find your slurs against him disgusting. Reflects on who you are. Ugh.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[onenote]

163. spoken like a true progressive

[Rex]

184. Zing!!

[Binka]

237. Oh Carlos Whoops I Mean Onenote

Sorry.

[geek tragedy]

54. Charlie Rangel has done more in his sleep for progressive

causes than everyone in this thread multiplied by ten in their entire lives.

[Rex]

60. Well then he can go and goosestep with his new best friend

George Bush. I hear Lieberman was a great progressive at one time and pissed his whole career away due to a kiss by the Devil.

[leftchick]

63. well said

once a progressive not always a progressive. And since when do progressives call for a draft like Rangel?

[Moochy]

71. Wasnt his call for the draft a kind of "dare"

Sort of playing chicken with the pResident?

Also I think I recall the objections to the current state of the all-volunteer army being that we already had a de-facto draft with the stop-losses and national guard units being called up repeatedly.

[leftchick]

121. sadly no. Mr. rangel is dead serious

mr. rangel has an actual bill in congress for a draft. Very progressive of him isn't it?...

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
February 14, 2006 Contact: George Dalley
[phone]

RANGEL REINTRODUCES DRAFT BILL
WASHINGTON - Lawmaker Says Volunteer Military May be Overwhelmed by Military Challenges in Iran, North Korea and Syria requiring more troops who will have to be drafted

Congressman Charles Rangel today introduced new legislation to reinstate the military draft that will include draftees up to 42 years of age.

"Every day that the military option is on the table, as declared by the President in his State of the Union address, in Iran, North Korea, and Syria, reinstatement of the military draft is an option that must also be considered, whether we like it or not," Congressman Rangel said. "If the military is already having trouble getting the recruits they need, what can we do to fill the ranks if the war spreads from Iraq to other countries? We may have no other choice but a draft."

The bill would mandate military service for men and women between the ages of 18 and 42. Deferments would be allowed only for completion of high school up to the age of 20, and for reasons of health, conscience or religious belief. Recruits not needed by the military in any given year would be required to perform some national civilian service.

"My bill conforms to the age standards that have been set by the Army itself," Congressman Rangel said, referring to the Army's recent announcement raising the top age for Army volunteers from 39 to 42. "With volunteers now being accepted up to the age of 42, it makes sense to cap the age of draftees at 42," Congressman Rangel said.


http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ny15_rangel/CBRSta...

[NYCGirl]

138. If there were a draft, the support for rushing into a ground war would be

gone. That's Rangel's point.

[Totallybushed]

212. Yet a draft,

gives limitless troops to power-mad despots like LBJ. Without a draft, there would have been no "Vietnam".

Rangel is dead wrong on this point.

[pinto]

247. (OT) You're off about LBJ. Think Voting Rights Act, Medicare,

the Great Society programs, however flawed some were.

Tagging him with VietNam is shortsighted, imho, overall. It did him in, though. That's a fact.

[Spearman87]

139. In fairness, he was trying to even the playing field

He said that if the children of the Rich, ie, Cheney's kids and Jenna and Laura Bush, had to go fight in these wars, they wouldn't be so quick to send the kids of the poor to die

[Moochy]

164. That was my impression at the time as well

[AZBlue]

240. Mine also. Knee-jerk reactions prevent some from thinking things through

and seeing the subtle logic and wisdom.

*sigh*

[bvar22]

250. Calling for a DRAFT was indeed PROGRESSIVE,

and I support Rangel's call for a draft. The RICH should do their FAIR SHARE...fighting WARS AND Paying TAXES!!!

HOWEVER, I am outraged hew would waste his time defending bush* and helping the CorpoMedia FRAME the entire bush* debacle aroung a lighter side comment made by Chavez!....BAD CHARLEY!!! Go stand in the corner!!!

While Rangel was mugging for the cameras, and helping the Republicans divert attention, the REPUBLICANS passed the TORTURE LEGISLATION the bush* DEMANDED.

What did Rangel say about the Republicans changing the official US Policy against torture?

What did ANY Democrat say about the new Torture Legislation?
But OOOOOHHH!!!! Chavez called bush* a "devil"... OOOOOHHHHHH!!!!!

Charley, and ALL the DEMOCRATS dropped the ball this week!

[leftchick]

179. I don't care what he was trying to do

putting a bill for a draft in congress is insane by any measure.

[Rex]

186. But but but, he has a D next to his name!

[leftchick]

188. the vast majority of Ds

seem to behaving like Rs these days. This is insane!

[Rex]

206. Now stop that! You cannot call the Ds, Rs! It will bring about our

destruction! Dogs and cats will start living together! Frogs will fall from the sky!

My personal opinion is that most in Congress have sold We the People out for a lousy buck.

Sad what people will do for money.

[Spearman87]

194. Think about it this way: The French are pretty slow

....to agree to any kind of military action, and have generally opposed Bush's adventures. Since they got out of their own Vietnam entanglement, and became a more socially oriented society, that’s been their typical stance. But until just a few years ago—in the 90s--they had MANDATORY military service: Not just a draft, Every man had to serve. When every family is directly affected, I think it makes a country a bit more responsible in its war decisions. When you think of the draft in this country, you think of Vietnam and all the notorious deferments. At the time I heard him speak at least, Rangle I think was looking for a system with more universal participation, like the French. I don't think that's unreasonable for him to bring it up; As an alternative to the current situation, I would have a hard time calling that an insane option.

[Spearman87]

207. Hey! How about this compromise!

How about Mandatory military service for all combat-age relatives of the administration that starts military action, and same for any congress that approves such action or declares war.

I think that would serve the same purpose

[Rex]

75. Thanks, some people just cannot live outside a black and white

world and boy do they show it here.

[geek tragedy]

69. Okay, this place has become a looney bin.

Charlie Rangel goose-stepping?

Dear lord, sometimes I wonder what planet some DU'ers are on.

[Rex]

72. Same here.

I guess you didn't read the OP.

[BIG Sean]

197. 100% Correct!

I can not believe the morons on here comparing him to Zell.

[KaptBunnyPants]

224. Then he should spend more time sleeping.

And less time defending Bush.

[cigsandcoffee]

223. It's a brilliant move.

Do you want Dems to win the midterm elections or not? The last thing we need is moderate Americans rallying around the President because a foreign demagogue is taking shots at him and our country in New York.

The GOP could have made a heyday with this, but Rangel stopped them cold. Well done, DNC and Dem leadership.

[Tyler Durden]

14. He wasn't INSIDE the country.

When Chavez spoke to the UN, he wasn't technically on United States soil. The UN has extraterritoriality.

And as to criticism: when the Pig Bush stops his ILLEGAL MILITARY ADVENTURES, THEN and only THEN can Rangel make that statement.

[El Zopilote]

41. Rangel traidor?

What is U.S. Congressman Charles Rangél doing? Is he betraying the Democratic Party? He's bashing Hugo Chavez and defending Bush. It is very disturbing and alarming to see a Democrat, especially a monority, to critize an international Hispanic leader and ally by expressing sympathy for Bush and his racist Republicans. Has Mr. Rangél gone loco? Has he turned into a rogue Democrat? Is he a traitor? Hopefully Mr. Rangél has an ulterior motive. But as Democrats we must be careful not to create the slightest impression that our strong united coalition has a crack in it. I consider all minorities (African-Americans, Hispanics of course, Muslims, American Indians and all to be my brothers in the cause of solidarity). We must remain united. Solidarity is the key to victory. We do not need dissent.

[Name removed]

238. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[undeterred]

15. Well maybe the United Nations should move to a friendlier country

instead of one that is ruled by a raving lunatic dictator.

[otohara]

30. UN Is Considered International Territory and....

In the 1960s new General Assembly and Secretariat buildings were built in New York, but there are major agencies located in Geneva, Switzerland and elsewhere.http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=United_Natio...

Yes....I think you're right, next time, this should be held in friendlier Geneva.

[Bad Penny]

129. Bush doesn't like conventions in Geneva

[treestar]

152. ROTLF at that graphic! Good one!

[otohara]

57. Chavez Said The Same Thing....He Proposed....

And maybe we have to change location. Maybe we have to put the United Nations somewhere else; maybe a city of the south. We've proposed Venezuela.

Chavez entire speech here:
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0920-22.htm

[Freddie Stubbs]

16. I wonder what Chavez's new friend will say about this?

[NNN0LHI]

19. That is proof that Muslims and Christians can get along just dandy

The cat is out of the bag.

Don

[Rex]

21. Very nice.

Swing that hammer!

[Freddie Stubbs]

28. Does Ahmadinejad promote a religion of peace?

[Rex]

39. Why don't you ask the Pope.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. Daaaamn, boyyyy!

[Freddie Stubbs]

51. When has the Pope encouraged violence?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. When he called a billion people evil and inhuman.

[Freddie Stubbs]

61. Who did he call inhuman?

Can you provide the quote?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. muslims.

But I'm sure you're already aware of the statements.

[Freddie Stubbs]

73. Can you please provide the quote where he calls muslims inhuman or

advocates violence?

I'm not aware of those statements. If they are so well known, you should not have any trouble providing them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. But you are aware of them.

You're just pretending you're not.

[Rex]

78. He must have missed the huge apology from the Pope.

I could have sworn Foxnews showed it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

81. He apologized for advocating violence?

[Rex]

84. Yes.

Why else would he apologize?

[Freddie Stubbs]

86. People say a lot of things that they need to take back

Can you provide a link to him advocating violence?

[Rex]

89. Really? You mean like the Pope?

[Freddie Stubbs]

105. But they don't all advocate violence against groups of people

[Rex]

111. Well then he should have never apologized if he really was

sincere about not wanting to incite violence in the Muslim world. Just sayin...

[Freddie Stubbs]

127. Kucinich apologized to the NAACP

http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:Yo3xoLAj-_oJ:www.s...

He should have never apologized if he really was sincere about not wanting to incite violence against Arican-Americans.

[Rex]

134. So Dennis apologized for missing a meeting, but the Pope apologized

for inciting violence among the Muslim population. Yeah, I guess you could compare those two if you were really desperate.

Edit - And why did Dennis miss the meeting you ask? So he could vote on a bill. Come on Fred, you can do better.

[Freddie Stubbs]

140. Still looking for that qoute inciting violence?

[Rex]

145. Sure

Right.

[Binka]

239. Gee Fred Is Still Licking The Lost Stamp

What next?

[ShortnFiery]

204. The Pope did NOT ever apologize for *the content* - he should resign n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

80. I am not aware of any statements of the Pope advocating violence or

calling anyone inhuman.

Are you aware of any?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

83. Yes.

It's gotten quite a bit of news lately.

[Freddie Stubbs]

85. Can you provide a link to these statements advocating violence?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

96. Well, if you want.

http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=%2094748

[Rex]

104. That's so sad.

I wonder if the Pope knows about irony?

[Freddie Stubbs]

109. I see no call to violence in that

"God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably ("syn logo") is contrary to God's nature."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

114. Uh huh.

and when Ahmadinejad said Israel "should be wiped off the map," he was talking about the game of Risk he happened to be playing at the time.

[Rex]

116. Did he ever apologize for his remarks?

or not.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

209. Nope.

The Pope didn't really apologize for his remarks.

As for Ahmadinejad, he's publically stated he's got no plans or desires to attack Israel.

[datasuspect]

149. have you heard of this new thing called "google"

consistently asking for quotes while playing the naif is not very becoming.

[Rex]

154. He can only type in three words, if nothing comes up then all is good

and fine in the world. Oh, almost forgot the

[Freddie Stubbs]

155. Google search for "pope advocated violence" yeilds no results

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLG%2CGGLG%...

[treestar]

160. Then neither should you.

Looks like there is enough you are not aware of that we can't really provide you with all that information.

Sorry, the concept that all the Christians collectively are better than all the Muslims collectively does not fly. And we certainly can't expect the Muslims to accept it even if we believe it.

[Rex]

68. Dayum!

rumroll:

[Rex]

70. Did you miss his apology the other day?

For calling the Muslim religion one of violence? It was on the TEEVEE.

[Freddie Stubbs]

76. That wasn't the question

When did the Pope advocate violence?

[Rex]

77. I just told you.

You must have missed it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

88. But you haven't been able to provide any proof that he advocated violence

against muslims.

[Rex]

92. It was in the news, I am very sorry if you missed it.

You do know how to use google right?

[Freddie Stubbs]

100. Yes, but nothing come up when you search "pope advocated violence"

http://news.google.com/news?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8...

[Rex]

102. That's because you worded it incorrectly.

You'll figure it out.

[Freddie Stubbs]

175. Thess google search yeilds some documents:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLG%2CGGLG%...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLG%2CGGLG%...

[Rex]

178. LOL

Much better then the Dennis theory!

[hfojvt]

103. maybe because it is so far away from accurate

first, the Pope never said muslims were evil and inhuman. He quoted a 1,000 year old writing which said that Islam, where original, was evil and inhuman.

You may say it is the same thing. Except notice that I just did what the Pope did (except I paraphrased). Does that mean I agree with everything that I quote? Not unless I say so in my own words. In the Pope's speech that quote was not the basis or the summary of a thesis. It was used to make a different point. A point where he, in fact, argues against violence and coercion.

That is pretty far away from advocating violence, no matter what the over-sensitive and Pope haters and Catholic haters may 'think' about it.

[Rex]

107. LOL. Pope/Catholic haters, thanks for playing.

Why did the Pope use the passage in the first place? He had to know it would incite a violent reaction from Muslims. Or is it just more of that willful ignorance people love to hide behind?

[hfojvt]

173. LOL, the 'willful ignorance' meme

because we all know exactly how people are going to react. We all should know what 'tar baby' means. We all know how people will react to a quote. Especially millions of people. Even after the fact, I do not think their reaction to his speech was appropriate.

[Rex]

183. Well of course you don't.

Willful ignorance as a meme? Talk about jumping the shark!

[hfojvt]

191. okay, maybe it is just a talking point

used by people incapable of making a logical argument.

[Rex]

193. Zing!!!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

110. Well, that's the thing, isn't it?

A person can pretend the Pope was "only quoting" and that it's not really advocating violence.

But he wasn't just quoting, and he really was advocating violence.

"Pope haters and Catholic haters."

LOL

[hfojvt]

189. this whole business of 'pretend' is kinda confusing

Person A: X is true.
Person B: X is false. Because of A, B and C.
Person A: You can pretend that X is false, but X is really true.

You really need alot more explication in your argument than arguing that your opponents are pretending.

Is 'LOL' a cogent argument? "Pope haters" is a funny term somehow? Yet you are bashing the Pope without being able to justify it, except to another poster who says 'Dayum' (or ditto). Sort of a 'friends agree with friends in order to express friendship'. Or 'If you like a person they can dump a plate of spaghetti in your lap and you will laugh, but if you hate a person, then the way they hold their fork infuriates you.'

I read a good portion of Ratzinger's speech, so if you wanna convince me that he was advocating violence you need a clearer argument.

[Rex]

196. We are laughing at you (pope haters), did you not get it?

We get it, try to catch up!

[Name removed]

210. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rex]

216. Yeah the second one.

You got it!

[Binka]

241. But He Hoped It Wasn't True

I am sure you feel better with that said. HAHAHAHA. Rex you rock!

[KaptBunnyPants]

225. Nicely done!

nt

[Bake]

153. Sure. As long as they both hate the U.S.

I say fuck 'em both. Any DUer who thinks Ahmadinejad is a "good guy" needs his/her head examined.

Bake

[SlavesandBulldozers]

226. they don't hate the US

they correctly think the US is run by a madman.

[Caution]

17. Chavez may be a loon, but he has just as much right to criticize Bush as

anyone else. Freedom of Speech is a right. Period.

Cue Chavez auto-defense because I expressed my opinion that he's a loon. I fully expect to be called one or more of the following:

1.) right-wing shill
2.) A corporatist
3.) A Freeper
4.) Conservative

Let's see how creative it gets.

[Moochy]

27. Right wing shill corporatist freeper conservative

What was that Ignored?

[Caution]

42. That didn't take long now did it :)

Though I was hoping for something new. The cult of personality around him is just so uncreative with their basic insults. Of course I am none of the above (In fact my personal politics fall to the left of Chavez) but hey any negative comments about Chavez always results in instant recrimination. It's like saying you don't like Randi Rhodes' show or Mike Malloy's show (I don't like either of their shows) or of course saying you don't believe in X(choose any of the following: MIHOP, LIHOP, astrology, chemtrails, chelation therapy, the healing "power" of prayer, homeopathy, god or unicorns).