The Pope should not have apologized

[question everything]

recent events - like killing a nun - proved the truth of the quote.

[Moochy]

1. I question the logic of this post

your user name compelled me to question it!!

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moochy]

124. Who pissed in your wheaties?

Oh that's right I did when I mocked your crappy OP topic.
"Name calling"

I questioned your logic, and made a mild jest about your name. And you took offense. Maybe you should burn me in effigy?

And yes, in fact because of my cute name, I hump a blow-up doll with Katie Courics face on it every nite.
138 replies and 1 recommendation.

[question everything]

217. Again, please bring facts to the debate

Your humping habits are of no interest to me. Perhaps on the Lounge.

More than 200 comments suggest that this topic touched a raw nerve but, I suppose, this is something beyond your comprehension. Or a simple envy?

Now go and hit the alert, again, so you can cry at a moderator lap.

[Name removed]

219. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

222. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muriel_volestrangler]

131. Fact: the Pope quoted someone saying

that all Mohammed's own ideas were 'evil and inhuman'.

Fact: a Muslim murdered a nun 1400 years after Mohammed.

Fact: the second happening does not prove the truth of the first quote.

Fact: Your OP is wrong.

[question everything]

220. What about the murder of Theo Van Gogh?

The riots after the cartoons? The fatwa on Salman Rushdie?

Is there any other group that values human life so little that suicide bombing is a matter of routine? What value does life have in Iraq when different groups murder each other?

Fact: There is a say, and I do not know the source, that Mohammad's judgment is in the sword. But I am sure that you will find it.

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[struggle4progress]

236. US has killed about 100K innocent Iraqis: that shows little regard ..

.. for human life ... So fundamentalists with an Islamic background don't seem to have cornered the market on callousness ...

[rman]

240. What about christians,

what about the abortion clinic bombings and shootings?

Why not apply the broad brush there and make it seem as though those cases are typical of christians?

[muriel_volestrangler]

242. Many Islamic societies are violent

So are many non-Islamic societies. Look at the Congo, or Rwanda.

Suicide bombing was first used as a common tactic by the Tamil Tigers, who aren't Islamic.

[BOSSHOG]

2. I would rather religious leaders

tend to the needs of their flocks. I'm Catholic Pope, give me and mine attention and grace and love and leave non catholics alone.

[question everything]

30. Would you hold the same opinion

during the Civil Rights movement, when many clerics joined the marches and the protest? What about those churches that gave shelter to refugees from El Salvador? Or the ones that in general are in the front line whenever there is a need to fight injustice?

Whenever I am upset about church leaders inciting their flocks to vote against a pro-choice candidate, even to deny one religious offering - the way they did with Kerry - I am remained of the above, and bite my tongue.

[Tenseiga]

232. ummm, correct me if I'm wrong,

but didn't the civil rights movement get its due because the leaders pushed for peaceful debate? I mean, I don't recall the Rev. Martin L. King Jr. encouraging riots for the wrongs of the past.

Unbelievable how so many people are willing to give Muslims a free pass on this. I can accept the fact that a small minority of Muslims are violent psychopaths who kill people over religious intolerance. What I can't abide is the MAJORITY of Muslims who say nothing about these incidents.
But I can't really blame them, since the media reported this in a way that mislead people into believing that these statements were a. The Pope's opinion, b. inflammatory, and c. historically untrue. You don't get to call for a search for truth and then deny truths that are "insensitive".

Now don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of the Pope. But the speech was quite an achievemnet academically. And I'm definitely not a fan of the Catholic church. I mean, a Minority of priests molest children, and they get the 15 years of fame they deserve. But they say nothing about the MAJORITY of Catholics who denounce child molestation. (If you don't see the double standard here, I can't help you.)

[question everything]

234. Please read the post to which I replied

it was about religious leaders sticking to their ministering to their followers and, essentially, stay away from current events. And I replied that we certainly welcomed them during the Civil Right movement.

And if you will read the whole thread, you will see that we are in agreement.

[ChiciB1]

216. I've HAD IT With Religion & Politics And All The WARS

because of it!! Once a die hare Catholic, but now I guess I'm an Agnostic or something! I'm so SICK & TIRED of Religious WARS!!

Seems to me that anymore Religion MEANS War! Is this what a GOD would want?? Seems to me that it's been this way since the world began, and the Middle East has been the center of most of it!!

I just don't know what to believe anymore!!!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. LOL.

[zonkers]

4. The pope should not have said that inflammatory remark to begin with.

He needs that bullet proof pope mobilie more than ever. Is it bomb proof?

http://reason-inc.com/blog/images/uploads/0,1020,461959,00_thumb.jpg

[Solo_in_MD]

150. Have you read the statement?

In context it was not inflamatory. However, the mullahs don't care, they are just looking for an excuse.

[Kire]

164. there is no context

just one sentence is all I've ever seen.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2163539&mesg_id=2163711

Do you have a link to the rest of it? The journalist who quoted the pope making the quote should apologize, if you are right.

Why did the Pope apologize anyway? Why couldn't he just point to the context?

[zonkers]

169. I mean, talk about abortion, human rights, your new pope mobile, what-

ever, but when you're the "man" with so much sway --- maybe you should choose your words a bit more carefully. One of your nuns got gunned down because of your dumb remark. Hundreds will die because of it.

[Solo_in_MD]

170. try this

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474 is the best link I have, there may be others.

It looks to be classic intellectual discourse, something fundies of all stripes abhor.

[Kire]

199. Thanks NT

[muriel_volestrangler]

246. And "evil and inhuman" looks completely out of context there

So, the question is, why did the Pope put that quote in there? It seems purposefully inflammatory, to me. To be honest, if a DUer posted that speech as their own on DU, I think it would get deleted for that remark being a broadbrush insult against a religion.

After having got his insult in at Islam, the Pope did indeed move on to "classic intellectual discourse". But he started with an undiplomatic criticism of Islam, and started that with a bigoted quote that was irrelevant to his subject.

[JerseygirlCT]

194. I don't think I agree

The points he made could easily have been made without that quote. And he HAD to know that it would be hurtful and inflammatory. He's lots of things I dislike intensely, but stupid, he's not, from all I've read.

[Moochy]

201. The Mullahs should have alerted the Popes post to the Mods! :-) n/t

[CJCRANE]

5. Are you a Catholic?

[question everything]

31. No

[CBGLuthier]

6. A lot of nuns were murdered in S. America

with nary a muslim's involvement.

Can you elaborate on what that fact proves?

All the murder of the nun proves is some asshole murdered a nun.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. It's really very simple.

If the Pope calls a billion people evil and inhuman, and then one of them does something evil and inhuman, then the Pope was right after all.

He is infallible, after all.

[tk2kewl]

19. If he is infallible he shouldn't have any reason to apologize

I think maybe boosh was hogging up all the devine-bandwidth at the time and the pope temporarily lost his connection.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. Well then it all works out.

Because he didn't really apologize.

[boolean]

12. For Christ's sake...

Are you saying there has been no violence to come from Muslims following the remarks? Just like there was no violence after the cartoon debacle?

Get real, people. It's not a bigoted statement to say a large number of Muslims have and continue to react with violence whenever someone offends them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. What I like about this is...

it's very clear to see who is and who isn't an islamophobic bigot.

It's like catching a klan meeting while their sheets are still on the spin cycle.

[JuniperLea]

101. Bingo

Best


Post


On


This


Thread

[William Bloode]

115. I concur.

Nt/

[Ignis]

173. Superbly worded! (nt)

[The Straight Story]

235. bwahahahahaha islamophibic bigot....

is that anything like a christian bigot here? Hmmmm....

[CJCRANE]

16. Ok I dare you

to do the same thing with another major religion, say Sikhism or Hinduism and broadcast it around the world and see what happens.

[warrens]

17. That ain't what he said

He basically said the religion was inherently violent.

Muslims objected...particularly his quoting of a medieval text that characterized some of the teachings of Islam's founder as "evil and inhuman" and referred to spreading Islam "by the sword."

[CBGLuthier]

18. No, but it is a bigoted statement

to say that the actions of some justify the statements of the Pope.

What I am saying is there is no religion that has either the corner on decency nore evil. All religions have adherents who are both sinners and saints.

To say that the murder of a nun justifies what the Pope said is bigoted bullshit.

One more time for those who may be slow

catholics murder
protestants murder
jews murder
buddhists murder
sikhs murder
hindus murder
muslims murder
atheists murder
protestants murder



and these facts prove nothing about their religion or philosophy.

[Moochy]

21. well said! kick for this post n/t

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[buddhamama]

40. i am surprised

The Spanish Inquisition, The Crusades and on and on..."This speak volumes about the people of this faith and what their clerics must be teaching."

[Nederland]

49. Re-read the post

I specifically said in the last ten years. Yes, Christianity and other religions have terrible pasts, but at some point they evolved and rejected violence. Islam has yet to have made that progression.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. LOL.

So I suppose this whole "War in Iraq" thing is just my imagination?

[Nederland]

57. Question

Do you think that an objective comparison of how Muslims in Iraq choose to fight and choose their targets, with how Americans choose to fight and choose their targets, would yield moral equivalence?

Note: The question IS NOT whether or not Americans have done heinous things in Iraq. The answer is unquestionably yes. The question is whether or not you see moral equivalence between the typical insurgent in Iraq and the typical American military personnel.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. No.

I think the insurgents in Iraq are choosing to fight invaders. While the Americans are choosing to attack a country that never did anything to them.

[Nederland]

65. I guess I wasn't clear

I was asking about how the two sides choose to fight and who each side chooses as its targets.

For example, does a typical American attack on insurgents consist of placing a bomb in a market full of civilians? Does a typical American attack on insurgents result in the deaths of women and children?

Note: Please don't ignore the word typical in the question.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. ...

"For example, does a typical American attack on insurgents consist of placing a bomb in a market full of civilians? Does a typical American attack on insurgents result in the deaths of women and children?"

Well, considering that Americans have killed some 200-300,000 Iraqi civilians... most of them directly by US fire, I'd say yes. In fact, I'm betting the U.S. has killed an awful lot more civilians than it has insurgents. Substitute "placing" with "dropping" or "firing" that is.

[Nederland]

81. Source?

Well, considering that Americans have killed some 200-300,000 Iraqi civilians...most of them directly by US fire, I'd say yes.

Please provide your source for this statistic.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

83. No.

Read up on Iraq yourself. This has got nothing to do with the original topic.

The United States is morally responsible for the War in Iraq, and by proxy even the atrocities that the insurgents commit.

According to your logic, that's the fault of Christianity too. Because the guy who is in charge says he's doing it in the name of God, and there's thousands of Christian clerics out there supporting it.

[Nederland]

91. I did

This is what I found:

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

This index puts the maximum number of civilians killed in Iraq at under 50,000. More importantly, this number includes ALL civilian deaths, not just deaths caused directly by US forces. Website explanation: The count includes civilian deaths caused by coalition military action and by military or paramilitary responses to the coalition presence (e.g. insurgent and terrorist attacks). It also includes excess civilian deaths caused by criminal action resulting from the breakdown in law and order which followed the coalition invasion.

That is a far, far cry from 200,000-300,000 cause by direct US fire that you claim.

[Karenina]

137. Every man, woman or child in Iraq

be they native or imported by *forces determined to steal their resources is labouring under the death sentence of DEPLETED URANIUM. We're NOW talking about MILLIONS who have been POISONED BY U.S. ORDNANCE.

Same in Afghanistan and Lebanon. SLO-MO G-E-N-O-C-I-D-E.

[Nederland]

146. Source

Do you have a source for the claim that millions will die from DU?

[Karenina]

167. BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

And I have NO SOURCE that MILLIONS will die from GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE, or corporate negligence i.e. strip mining, pollution of aquifers, poisoning of the atmosphere, GM strains run wild, E-coli laden Spinach, Teflon (TM), wars to acquire components of throw-away cell phones or oil... Leck mich am Arsch.

[buddhamama]

171. studies have begun

our military men and women have been affected also. it'll be yrs before we fully know the damage DU has caused.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/95178_du12.shtml

http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/ud_main.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3627

http://www.sundayherald.com/40096

[135th]

200. "and by proxy even the atrocities that the insurgents commit."

By that logic the US is responsible for the people Saddam killed because we didn't remove him from power earlier. Place the blame for murdered civilians where it belongs, the vast majority of deaths do not fall on US hands.

That is the same problem with blaming the Pope for the rioting and murders commited after his speech. His comments were poorly thought out, but focusing your outrage on him is ridiculous. The Pope didn't murder a nun, he didn't riot, and he didn't advocate violence. How is it that the people who are most to blame for what has happend are getting a pass?

[crim son]

174. I see the word typical and the answer is no.

A "typical" muslim doesn't do what you describe, but desperate ones do. If muslims were inherently evil then I'd worry about my kids walking the streets of town. There are muslims everywhere and guess what? No attacks. I won't ignore the word "typical" if you don't ignore the context of the Iraq war. We invaded them, not the reverse.

[Nikki Stone 1]

212. Nederland, to answer your original post: "does a typical American attack

on insurgents consist of placing a bomb in a market full of civilians? Does a typical American attack on insurgents result in the deaths of women and children?"

I would remind you that it isn't just Muslim terrorists who do these sorts of things. The Irish Catholic IRA has been doing this kind of thing for years. It's not about religion, it's about strategy.

[question everything]

224. Sunnis and Shia are killing each other. Who is the invader?

[buddhamama]

i did read it

in its entirety. have those religions actually evolved or have they learned to hide their motivating factors well?

[Nederland]

61. Who cares?

Who cares about "hiding" motivating factors? I'm taking about words and deeds. The bottom line is that only one religion in the world right now has numerous clerics suggesting that it's perfectly alright to go out and behead people, and numerous followers acting on that advice. Hint: it's not Judaism, Buddhism, or Christianity.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. really?

Then how come I keep hearing about all these Christian churchs in the U.S. getting behind the war in Iraq?

[Nederland]

71. You don't

Show me a quote from a US cleric or preacher who advocates beheading Muslims simply because they are Muslims.

You can't.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

77. No, they don't use the word "beheading."

Just plain killing is good enough.

Now explain to me how that's better.

[Nederland]

85. Really?

I must have missed that.

Show me a quote from a US cleric or preacher who advocates killing Muslims simply because they are Muslims.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

88. ...

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0424-07.htm

[Nederland]

95. Confused

There is no quote by a US clergy in that link that suggests killing Muslim simply because they are Muslims. Perhaps I missed it. Can you post that actual quote you are referring to, and the name of the person who made it? Thanks.

[buddhamama]

87. Christian leaders

have made statements of hate and violence.

Daniel Pipes comes to mind. Pretty scary, considering his influence within government.

"Pipes has taken the position that the Middle East peace process should be abandoned altogether. He believes that Israel should pursue the most extreme military action until the Palestinians are totally crushed as a viable, indigenous people and abjectly surrender all claims to their homeland and self-determination. He also characterizes the vast majority of Muslims and Arabs—internationally and in the Muslim and Arab-American community—as either actual or potential terrorists."

[Nederland]

96. Interesting

I'd prefer to read Pipes actual words though, not someone else's interpretation of what he said. Do you have that?

[buddhamama]

98. I will provide it for you.

along with other examples of hate speech against Muslims.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4159220.stm

[Nederland]

120. Nice try

Let's look at what was said:

"There are only two possible reactions if you want to stop this bomb terrorism - either you expel all Muslims from Western Europe so they cannot plant bombs, or you exterminate the fanatical Muslims which would mean killing a substantial part of Muslim immigrants."

This is not an advocation of killing Muslims. The speaker is an advocate of halting Muslim immigration. By claiming that there are only two solutions to the problem of Muslim terrorism (kill them or send them home), he is counting on the fact that since killing them is obviously not an option, you have to send them home. It is a rhetorical device that uses a logical statement that identifies only two choices, one of which is abhorrent, to suggest that only one course of action is practical.

More importantly, the radio station lost its license for merely allowing this person to speak. That is a far, far cry from the complete non-reaction you see in Muslim media to outright calls for genocide.

[buddhamama]

122. what is Muslim media?

presiding specifically in the Muslim world? Because there have been Muslim leaders who have condemned the violence.

[Nederland]

129. For starters:

Iranian State television
Syrian State television
Jordanian State television
Iranian Mehr News Agency
Al-Bayan
Al-Watan

[buddhamama]

138. i found a list of statements

published here in the U.S., on the web and in the "Muslim media".
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

[buddhamama]

130. i found a better example of Hate speech

PNAC, sound familiar?

these are quotes taken from talks:
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/kaiser.htm

[Nederland]

151. LOL!

The Assassinated Press is a satire site.

[buddhamama]

157. for real?

oppss. sorry. i didn't know.

[buddhamama]

159. hate speech

by Christian Leaders

http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_war.htm

excerpt:
Others, particularly Fundamentalist Christians, believe that Islam is a religion of hatred and warfare:
bullet Jerry Falwell said that "...Muhammad was a terrorist. I've read enough of the history of his life written by both Muslims and non-Muslims, that he was a violent man, a man of war." 6,7 That particular comment triggered a riot in India which killed at least 14 people.
bullet The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) singled out Evangelical Christian "Franklin Graham who has claimed that terrorism is part of 'mainstream' Islam and that the Quran, Islam's revealed text, 'preaches violence.' Graham also called Islam an 'evil and wicked religion.' "
bullet CAIR listed two additional leading conservative Christian pastors -- Pat Robertson and Chuck Colson -- who, they say, "have echoed Graham's Islamophobic smears."
bullet The CAIR listed a number of socially conservative commentators such as William Lind, who suggests that American Muslims “...should be encouraged to leave . They are a fifth column in this country.” Also listed were Ann Coulter, Jerry Vines, and Paul Weyrich.
bullet Conservative Christian author and radio pastor Dave Hunt claims: "...there are more than 100 verses in the Qur'an advocating the use of violence to spread Islam. In the Qur'an, Allah commands Muslims, 'Take not the Jews and Christians as friends....Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them.... Fight against such...as believe not in Allah...' (Surah 5:51; 9:5,29,41, etc..). Though most Muslims would shrink from obeying such commands, this is official Islam and it cannot change without admitting that Muhammad was a false prophet and murderer." 5

[buddhamama]

161. more hate speech

Pat Robertson:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/pat_islam.htm

[buddhamama]

177. ok, i gave one erroneous example

but i have supplied other quotes and links. in addition, i provided for you numerous statements, writings from Muslims leaders, scholars denouncing terrorism....

what gives?

[buddhamama]

156. more examples of hate

Franklin Graham statement on Islam, quoted by Novak in an interview with Jerry Falwell (tell me how Graham's statement is any way different than how some Muslims view Christianity or Judism)

NOVAK: All right. Jerry Falwell, you're drifting us away from my question, as I'm afraid you would. But I just want to give you another quote. We're going to put it up on the screen from Dr. Franklin Graham last November 19th. He said of Islam, "It's a different God and I believe it's a very evil and wicked religion."

comments by Falwell on Islam/Muslims

http://www.proislam.com/target_reverend_jerry_falwell.htm

[buddhamama]

121. ok, i apologize

i cannot find the exact quote.

[qwertyMike]

149. AMERICA GO HOME

Enjoy youe SUV's, mindless television, football games

Nobody cares

Thank you

[JuniperLea]

105. See Jesus Camp.... eom

[William Bloode]

117. Rejected violence?

Have you ever heard of the Army of God? They preach violence as a way to stop abortion. Ever notice the Klan embraces god like no ones buisness, along with many others.

[Nederland]

123. Yup

And those people get thrown in jail for their crimes, unlike Muslim terrorists who achieve rock star status in their countries. Try as you will, you can't find moral equivalence here. It's not to be found.

[William Bloode]

132. Not a rock Star?

Eric Robert Rudolf has rock star status with millions in this country. And no in most muslim countries if you were caught blowing up a building in their own country would not be jailed, but most likely killed.

[Nederland]

144. Eric Robert Rudolf?

Eric Robert Rudolf was the focus of a nationwide manhunt that cost the US government millions of dollars and is currently in jail.

[Bake]

140. Christians blowing up abortion clinnics?

Shooting "abortionists"? (I loathe that word).

Not all Christians have renounced violence (although all should). Just ask Jerry "Blow 'em away in the name of the Lord" Falwell.

Having said that, I don't think the proper response to the Pope's remarks was to put out a hit him or to murder a nun. Or do we even all agree on that?

Bake

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. I'm not going to admit that.

In fact, if you look at the religion of who's caused the most widespread human suffering over the last few years, Islam would be in tight running with Christianity.

You have to admit that.

Osama bin Laden killed 3,000 innocent people. George Bush has killed 300,000 or so innocent people.

[Nederland]

51. Many Muslims would disagree

Consider the words of Abdel Rahman al-Rashed, a Muslim and general manager of Al-Arabiya News:

<snip>

It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims.

The hostage-takers of children in Beslan, North Ossetia, were Muslims. The other hostage-takers and subsequent murderers of the Nepalese chefs and workers in Iraq were also Muslims. Those involved in rape and murder in Darfur, Sudan, are Muslims, with other Muslims chosen to be their victims.

Those responsible for the attacks on residential towers in Riyadh and Khobar were Muslims. The two women who crashed two airliners last week were also Muslims.

Bin Laden is a Muslim. The majority of those who manned the suicide bombings against buses, vehicles, schools, houses and buildings, all over the world, were Muslim.

What a pathetic record. What an abominable "achievement". Does all this tell us anything about ourselves, our societies and our culture?

<snip>


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse605.xml

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Well, it looks like one muslim disagrees.

Unfortunately, I'm not about use your logic where 1 muslim = many muslim. And 19 muslims = all muslims.

And I've got an unfortunate series of facts on my side, not the opinion of one self-hating muslim.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nederland]

80. Agreed

There are non-Muslim terrorists. But go back to my original post and read what I wrote. I said that I bet 90%+ of the terrorist attacks in the last ten years were conducted by Muslims. As I read your list of non-Muslim terrorists, I see that you had to reach all the way back to 1995 (McVeigh) just to come up with three examples.

I think you've merely proved my point.

[Goblinmonger]

82. I have no desire to research that

and I'm sure others have. That was just the obvious list off the top of my head. I'm sure with an hour's time, many more examples could be brought to light.

Plus, it isn't a big stretch to call the US terrorists in Iraq. Many muslims already are. Many liberals, too.

[Nederland]

113. I'll help you out

The Terrorism Knowledge Base has tracked terrorist activities since 1972. Here is an interesting list:

http://www.tkb.org/IncidentClassModule.jsp?classId=1&pagemode=group&startDate=01/01/1968&endDate=09/18/2006&suiInt=0&domInt=0&filter=0&setFilter=2&detail=0&info=Religious

Note how many of the groups in the list are Islamic? Like, as in nearly all of them?

[Goblinmonger]

165. I will check out the link more fully

as I am just checking in while supper simmers.

But clearly, if this site is correct, we should bomb all the muslims into extinction.

[Bake]

141. But * isn't a Christian.

By their fruits shall you know them.

Bake

[SidDithers]

213. If he claims he's a christian, then he's a christian...nt

Sid

[JuniperLea]

104. Oh really?

I guess you forgot about those Crusades, eh?

And you might want to check out that Jesus camp film... links all over DU... knock yourself out.

[Nederland]

114. Yawn

Another person that can't read...

[JuniperLea]

118. Yawn yourself, oh ye of little vision

And then check out "Jesus Camp"... and then think about Pat Robertson and his recent call for the assassination of a world leader... then think about all the people who have died in bombings at abortion clinics... yawn yourself.

[qwertyMike]

152. The Last 10 years?

USA - no debate - and don't use the word "terrorism". How about "Resistance"

[Nederland]

154. Resistance

In the month of August the "Resistance" killed 67 American soldiers but over 3000 Iraqi civilians. Who exactly are they resisting? Hint: they are Sunnis fighting the idea of majority Shiite rule, not US forces.

[qwertyMike]

188. So what are we doing there?

[ulysses]

215. whoa. you're including, of course,

"Christian" violence against gays, abortion providers/workers, etc., right?

And wasn't your benighted globalism supposed to be having us sing in economic peace by now?

[buddhamama]

243. The IRA

The Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.


there have been foiled plots too, by non-Muslims
http://www.adl.org/learn/news/extremist_chemical.asp

[spacelady]

255. I like the cut of your jib! The Pope was playing with flamebait. n/t

[demosincebirth]

26. It seem like anything someone says offends them - then they...

march and protest.

[CBGLuthier]

33. My grandparents said the same things about black folk too

[boolean]

34. Nothing wrong with marching and protesting....

Even if I'm of the opinion that it's asinine to waste your time and energy marching and protesting over stupid remarks that offend you, there's nothing wrong with that.

But what about all the churches burnt down. The murdered nun, etc? During the cartoon thing, molotov cocktails were thrown and people were killed. They call for fatwas and all other such nonsense on individuals. They call for beheadings.

And yes, I realize that it's a minority of Muslims that are doing these things, but it's not bigoted to point it out.

[buddhamama]

35. i've marched and protested too,

does that make the Pope's statement true? does that make me inherently evil? and, does it make me Muslim?! i guess so, since i am displaying the same behavior :eyes:

[demosincebirth]

191. Do you murder and kill inocent people, too?

You know the saying "not all muslims are terroist, but...."

[ulysses]

223. "but all terrorists are Muslims"???

[Bluebear]

76. "For CHRIST'S sake" . . .nice touch!

;)

[rman]

241. kindof like how the US responds with violence when

some nation threatens "US interests".

[CBGLuthier]

8. Irish catholics have murdered irish protestants

What does that prove about catholicism?

nothing of course other than assholes will kill for any excuse.

[Crazy Dave]

9. If it will stop further violence and save another person's life

Then he should. Although I think another excuse will quickly come up to justify more violence.

[Liberal Dose]

10. Maybe he was longing for his days as a Hitler Youth member when he

brought up that quote. The Pope is scary, especially when he smiles. :scared:

[skylarmae]

11. I agree-It seems like muslims call for jihad-kill the infidels- all the

time and no-one says dick about it...but, God forbid, someone even mentions their violence and history of violence, and watch out...This double standard is pissing me off to no end....

[Nozebro]

15. Ever hear of the Crusades? Somebody told Bush about it. HE's heard

of the Crusades. You consider the Crusades an act of liberation and tolerance?

[Crazy Dave]

22. The Inquisition was really bad too

n/t

[Bake]

142. Well, I didn't expect THAT ...

Wait for it ...

Bake

[demosincebirth]

36. The Crusades? Get real, that was 900 years ago.

This is now. Bringing up shit from 1000 years ago is ignorant and childish...and don't bring up the Inquisition, either...that was 700 years ago, too.

[CarlVK]

58. So was the stupid quote the Pope used to inflame the Muslims.

Next?

[Goblinmonger]

72. When was that quotation from

that Rattzie used? Exactly.

[liberalpragmatist]

190. It was a quote from a 14th-Century Byzantine Emperor

nt

[JuniperLea]

107. See Jesus Camp... in theatres this fall.... check DU for links...

Come on! It's right under your nose!

[spacelady]

256. The Crusades and Inquisition were SO yesterday! Get with the fashionable

reasons for war. Like Jesus for Oil. Oh! And no learning from history for you! Signed, God Nazi.

[CJCRANE]

54. If you hadn't noticed

Afghanistan was carpet-bombed and Iraq "shock and awed" to protect us from "the terrorists". There are secret prisons where people are tortured and held indefinitely - something is being done about it (whether it's the right thing or not, that's another matter).

[Goblinmonger]

70. God told bush

to invade Iraq. Why aren't we talking about the violence inherent in the Christian religion. Talk about double standards--why not take a look in the mirror oh great oppressed one.

[JuniperLea]

119. That should be the definitive answer right there

Perfect!!

[sufrommich]

166. Why either or?

Why does every discussion of violent muslim extremism have to be answered by "yeah but the christians"?Christians are discussed daily on this forum and not very often kindly,has anyones life been threatened because of it?Is Skinner on the run for allowing it?Sooner or later,those of you who are always finding ways to dismiss criticism of islamic fundamentalism are going to have to face the fact that they are hell bent on curbing your freedom of speech.They threaten to take your life away for daring to even comment on their religion.Why defend that? The amount of Christian violence in the modern world pales in comparison the
religious extremist in the middle east.Whats so criminal about merely discussing it?To compare a very small amount of American fundamentalist who have actually carried out violence to the violent reactions of the islamic fundamentalist "warriors" whenever their religion is even moderately questioned is ridiculous.

[PassingFair]

203. You forget, or don't realize, that in THEOCRACIES...

religion and government ARE ONE.

So their "extremists" CAN AND SHOULD be compared, not
only to our "wacko shooters", but our invading and
occupying forces as well.

[question everything]

226. Well said

What people here choose to ignore is that, first, acts of terror in this country - like McVeigh and bombing abortion clinics - are a crime for which the terrorists, when found, are punished.

Two, even if people choose to label Bush a terrorist, every four years we have elections when he, or anyone else, can be replaced.

Yes, I know, the conspiracy theorists will say that the elections are rigged so that we cannot replace them... another topic. Let's agree at least that this can happen in theory.

But jihadists who terrorize innocent people are not being punished. Or, at least, if Egypt puts in jail members of the Muslim Brothers, if Jordan will execute (I hope not) the would be woman suicide bomber - there will be cries here.

[Goblinmonger]

250. See, here's the deal

The freedom of speech is the freedom of speech. The fact that you can go around saying crazy shit about muslims means that "everyone else" can talk about Christians. And I don't feel sorry for the fucking majority of this country who are somehow oppressed by the minority. Every day that passes the United States becomes more and more of a Christian theocracy and I get to come on DU and hear Christians whining about being oppressed.

But let's look at the bigotry of your post.

1. "...they are hell bent on curbing your freedom of speech." THEY? What the fuck does that mean? Every muslim wants to curb my freedoms? Even those muslim friends I have? I didn't know that. They sure are some sneaky bastards, then, because my friends seem pretty normal. And how exactly are "they" going to curb my freedoms? They have the power in the US to do that? Interesting.

2. "...religious extremist in the middle east." I assume by the tone of your post that you mean the muslims here. What about the Jews? I bet some people might talk about what they are doing, too. Oh, yeah, and since we are on the middle east, what about that guy that invaded a country because god told him to? I don't suppose you were meaning Bush when you said "religous extremist" but that would just be your bigotry showing again.

3. Here's the kicker though. The irony and hypocracy is just fantastic. "To compare a very small amount of American fundamentalist who have actually carried out violence to the violent reactions of the islamic fundamentalist 'warriors' whenever their religion is even moderately questioned is ridiculous." So whenever anybody talks about Christian assholes, you feel fine dismissing them as "a very small amount" but when a Muslim asshole does something, you very quickly come to the conclusion that is representative of the whole religion. Pot meet kettle.

[Nozebro]

13. Can you think of any examples that show so-called Christians or any other

religions have long track records of using violence (whether physical or not, as "don't vote for JFK unless you want the Pope running the USA") to spread their message? THINK hard and I'll bet you could (assuming you know even a little bit about history). How about those missionaries out in the Pacific islands? The Catholics in Spain (1492)? How about those so-called Christians in the White House? Is what they're doing to the Muslims in the Middle East? That's not exactly a good example of love, forgiveness, tolerance, or respect, is it?

[Crazy Dave]

23. Christian extremists have been known to blow-up...

...abortion clinics and shoot the doctors and staff.

[kurth]

27. How 'bout them conquistadores, with their Santiago Matamoros

[JuniperLea]

111. Pat Robertson

recently called for the assasination of a world leader... fine Christian sentiment right there... :eyes:

[CarlVK]

185. Inquisition, Witch Burnings, Crusades....

There is almost 2,000 years of pleasantness we can go over to answer your question.

[question everything]

228. What's that got to do with the jihadists?

Are you really trying to justify their violence, the 100 a day killed and tortured in Iraq - not by US soldiers - by going back all the way to 1492?

I am not talking about violence by Christians and by zealots Jews in the occupied territories. I am talking about the jihadists who want to claim the glory of Islam from the first Millennium, who are "upset" at the way women are dressed in Western countries and therefore want to blow airplanes.

How can you possible justify this? How can people on DU justify, by any means, acts of violence done in the sake of "god," any god?

Of course Coulter, and Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell are wrong in what they are saying Muslims, or that they should convert to Christianity. This is not the point. The point is that one, like Salman Rushdie, should be able to criticize people and religion without having riots and suicide bombing and killing of nuns.

[CBGLuthier]

24. What the Pope actually said

He also quoted Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus who in talk with an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, said that the Prophet (PBUH) had brought the world “evil and inhuman” things. “I quote "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached," said Benedict XVI.



This is the statement that you agree with. That the founder of one of the world's largest religions only added evil and inhuman qualities to religion?

[Kire]

139. What's he doing quoting an emperor anyway?

Shouldn't he be restricting himself to theologians?

I think he really stepped in it this time.

[Solo_in_MD]

176. It was classic intellectual discourse

read the whole thing for context. Fundies hate anything the smacks of intellecualism so of course the mullahs reacted viloently. They also look even more stupid on this one than they did the Danish cartoons.

[Kire]

162. What was the context, anyway?

You never see the paragraph before and the paragraph after this one sentence. I'd be interested to read a transcript or watch a video.

[hogwyld]

28. If the Pope really wants to difuse the situation

He should repent, and convert to Islam...

[Karenina]

29. And the bigots come out at night...

:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

Your post simply proves that the glue that holds the current genocide of Arabs together in SOME western minds is.....






















Wait for it...























RACISM.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. Well put.

[Dutch]

45. All the McCarthyites come out night.

And the people who don't know the difference between a race and a religion too, apparently.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CJCRANE]

59. That is not the modern branch of Islam.

Members of al-Qaeda are killed and arrested in every country that they crop up, including muslim ones.

[RangerSmith]

86. Come on, Dude!

Haven't you heard?

It's all a Black Ops operation. There is no terrorist threat.

[CJCRANE]

92. Not exactly black ops...

but ask yourself why the countries connected to the operatives, planning and financing of 9/11 are Bushco allies?

[RangerSmith]

100. OK, seriously....

There is no half way on this one. Either bush was in on it or he wasn't. if you think he was, then you think it was all a black ops operation.

[CJCRANE]

187. Depends on the definition of "black ops".

My baseline definition of "black ops" is an operation carried out by the CIA or similar US intelligence agency that is conducted beyond oversight (or at least outside the public domain). I don't believe that's the case with 9/11. However my definition of "black ops" might be incorrect.

[Karenina]

89. WOO-HOO! Rassismus ist wirklich eine Krankheit...

(And BTW, your English sucks). :evilgrin:

[question everything]

229. Care to debate the issues?

Or are personal attacks - I don't understand your Kareninasims but I doubt they are compliments - the best you can do?

[sufrommich]

147. Thank you

I never thought I'd see the day that so called liberals would defend religious lunacy.These misogynistic idiots think nothing of killing women for "crimes"that in any modern society would be considered obvious freedoms for everyone.They have absolutely zero tolerance for anyone who dares to disagree with them and yet we have liberals on this board who apparently don't see what the problem is with that.
It's really pathetic to see what contortions some people will go through to allow themselves to become apologists and cheerleaders for 15th century thou gt alive and well in the 21st century.It makes me sick.

[JuniperLea]

108. Racism and all forms of bigotry

Are usually not seen by those who embrace it.

[spacelady]

257. Thank You!!!!!! n/t

[Ravenseye]

155. hear hear

here here? hear hear?

Meh.

Well put.

[leftofthedial]

37. he should have publicly committed suicide

shown a little initiative

[saltpoint]

44. For delivering a speech at a college?

Sounds pretty harsh to me.

[leftofthedial]

134. yeah, the harsher the better

self immolation maybe?

[saltpoint]

145. It doesn't sound as if you've read the address.

If you had I can't imagine you reaching that conclusion.

[leftofthedial]

148. I'd reach that conclusion just on general principle

and a basic knowledge of world history.

:shrug:

[saltpoint]

158. We definitely part company on both aspects.

If the West is self-interested, greedy, imperious, and territorial, the post-Mohammed Muslims are just as self-interested, and give as bloody as they get.

I count damn few pure angels on either side.

The Pope's thesis in his address did not condemn Islam. It cited the de-hellenization of both Protestant and Catholic traditions and weighed this trajectory against the church's enjoining its followers to holiness.

I'm not a Catholic. I have no Catholic dog in this fight.

But the Pope's comments did not rise to the inflammatory level.

[leftofthedial]

183. religion, fundie religion in particular

is anathema to civilization

[saltpoint]

189. Well ... the day-to-day devotionist of Islam

isn't the guy firebombing churches.

The radical Muslim, a small minority probably, is the firebomber.

[leftofthedial]

192. there are crimes other than firebombing churches

and wrongs and Wrongs.

[saltpoint]

208. True. But you and I don't vandalize others' buildings when we

hear a speech we disagree with, or read an editorial that goes against our grains.

We suck it up and navigate in the complex world.

I think if the Pope had intended a conflagration, he would have given the speech in a far more prominent venue, and used far sharper language.

I think of Franklin Graham's direct, right-now assault on the integrity of all Muslims. The Pope's address was not anything like that at all, and he buried it from a public relations perspective, in a small German college. I didn't pick up any of the grandstanding that goes with rhetoric-as-weapon.

[Kire]

133. ROFLMAO

nt

[tocqueville]

39. if you had read his speech

he never meant that "Muslims" are violent in general. He quoted with reservations an old text in relation to a theological question. The quotation was an example. He apologized for the fact that he formulated his thougts in a way that could be misunderstood. And that's OK. He didn't apologized for discussing transcendence. Which the whole speech was about. Not Islam.

so I'm sorry, but your post shows that you don't know what you are talking about, but still jump to conclusions.

[Karenina]

55. Benny is very savvy

so it's difficult for me to believe that he was oblivious to the danger of his reference being taken out of context. That said, the overwhelming MAJORITY of mainstream Islamic institutions have accepted his clarifications without prejudice. It's interesting to see how the Amis get fed FRONT PAGE STORIES about every tin-pot lunatic with 100 people in the audience... And NOW here comes Al-CIADA!!! BOOGA, BOOGA!!!

Reminds me of how it gets the lead if a dimwit in the east throws a rock, but if 10,000 demonstrate against racism and chase the dweebs back ino their hole, there's nary a peep.

[tocqueville]

84. you could be right

but when you read it in the context and with the two reservations he made about the quote, it was obvious that he wasn't after insulting anybody. But I agree that he should be that "smart" not to give the slightest opportunity to somebody to use his speeches in another way than intellectually disagree.

[Karenina]

97. Ratzinger is a VERY well-educated and worldly man

which is why I tend to view his disclaimers as CYA. I had visions of his phone ringing off the hook from politicians here, "HALLO, Popala??? Na ja, Wir Sind Papst, hab' Dich lieb und alles, aber BIST DU BESCHEUERT???" :evilgrin:

[tocqueville]

136. LOL n/t

[Goblinmonger]

78. I call bullshit.

He used this horrible quotation and then his apology is basically him saying, "Hey, I'm just sayin'" and everyone's response to some assholes being violent in response is "See. See what I mean." Or was it what you didn't mean? Hmmmm? Some contraditions there.

[tocqueville]

93. this quotation was only a tiny part of the speech

and besides it's "horribility" is very relative. I bet there are far more people saying "fuck Jesus" in Europe (for whatever reason) than "fuck Mohammed". I don't understand the reasoning : if I quote Barbara Bush saying horrible things about the Katrina refugees in a context where I discuss American politics, but not particularly Barbara Bush herself, does it turn me into a racist ?

[Goblinmonger]

163. So I missed the point

in the speech where Rattzy said, "That quotation about Islam, it's crap. That isn't the deal at all." Perhaps you can point out the part of the speech where he disclaims the quotation.

[nosmokes]

42. he didn't

he claimed he was sorry if people were upset with what he said. if that's an apology the shrub is literate and a diplomatic jeenyus.

[CarlVK]

43. Bullshit. You're propulgating violence promotion.

Blaming all Muslims for the acts a relative few is an act that needs no more denunciation - it denounces itself. What's profoundly sad is that a Pope had instigated it.

[oasis]

172. The Pope knowingly helped the Chimp in his campaign against the

so-called "islamo-fascists". Rethugs like Santorum will rally around the Pope and continue to point fingers at our "ideological enemies".

[CarlVK]

181. Exactly right.

Which is the most annoying thing about Pope FootNMouth's comments. He knew better, and choose to say something divisive and inflammatory.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CJCRANE]

64. It all depends

on your prejudices on whether you agree with the Pope or not. I'm sure muslim scholars would argue that their religion is more rational and less idolatorous than Catholicism. Then they would probably also point out that it was islamic scholars who rediscovered the Greek philosophers prior to the European Renaissance.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. I agree with your first sentence.

Agreeing or disagreeing with the pope very adamantly defines whether or not you're a person who believes in the equality of man, etc. or if you're just a dumb bigoted fuck.

[saltpoint]

79. Not solely. The canonized gospels are in Greek. Part of Benedict's

address discussed the de-Hellenization of both Catholic and Protestant traditions. He set this notion against the original Greek, or logos. As well, he connected these ideas to the ethical construct of a benevolent God. Atheists could follow that argument, even if it is not attached to an ethical deity.

So could Muslims, and most likely have. The flack Benedict is getting is from radical Islamic factions, not day-to-day practitioners.

I think firebombing churches just because someone said something you don't like in a speech is incredibly hysterical and indefensible.

____
edit: spellin'

[CJCRANE]

90. I agree

a violence reaction is not defensible.

And this is where I bow out of the discussion as I'm not a theological expert.

For me, I'm happy for religion to tell me what day to give presents to my family or provide a place that I can get married in.
Beyond that, I'm happy to muddle along in life without worrying about the bigger questions. Maybe when I'm Pope Benedict's age I'll have the time to mull them over.

[saltpoint]

103. CJCRANE, don't let anybody tell you that you have to bow out of

anything.

To start with, you're doing just fine on this topic -- Benedict's a scholar over most of our heads, is my guess -- don't let anyone here or anywhere else persuade you that you should bow out.

The main take I have on the Pope flap here is that the thesis of Benedict's address is not mentioned in the media, and it's the media who are fanning the flames.

The Palestinians who firebombed those churches . . . they weren't even Cathoic churches!

Just hysterical anger.

[qwertyMike]

197. A Nun died

[saltpoint]

209. True. But the Pope did not kill her. His words did not kill her.

Her assassins were not Catholic at all.

[Dutch]

48. Agreed. n/t

[Xenotime]

52. I disagree. Only because he said what he said is why it happened.

[genie_weenie]

56. What does it matter what the Pope said?

He doesn't speak for every Christian. Just like UBL doesn't speak for every Muslim.

He's only one man. Can't he hold any opinion he wants? OR is it because since he is Pope he is the Spiritual Leader of a big movement? But, since he can't stop being Pope and therefore whenever he does speak it will be viewed as "The Pope said this" & "The Pope said that".

Unless people believe that because the Pope quoted a Byzantine Emperor, who's Grandson would be killed on the walls of Istanbul, err.. Constantinople by the Bloody Turk, might incite people to go commit acts of violence against innocent Muslims?

Is that it? Are people worried that the Pope's remarks might be "fightin' words"? Well, then every person needs to shut up because hell some radical might latch onto the words and commit some evil act! I always knew The Beatles *WERE* responsible for Manson's actions!

So, Why don't we do it in the Road?

Edit: It must be because of his position as Pontiff that his statment is wrong. Because Islam is after all a tragically flawed theory but no one gets angry when a nobody says "Islam sucks" or for that matter "Christianity Sucks"!

[Doc Martin]

62. He did not apologize

Popes do not apologize.

Pope Ratzinger did not take back his words; he expressed regret that others misunderstood him. It is their fault.

Pope John Paul II, a few years back, did not apologize to Jews for anti-semitism in the name of the Church or past leaders but for the sins of "the sons and daughters of the Church." Mother Church was never wrong. It was. as always, we schmucks in the pews.

From,

A loving son of the Church in exile until Ratzinger is "of happy memory"

[xchrom]

102. ding! ding! winner! and welcome!

he did not apologise -- and the meaning was that it was the fault of the listener.

and i find the OP incredibly offensive and racist.

as i find any number of remarks in this thread.

[Doc Martin]

116. Thanks. What is "OP?"

[WhollyHeretic]

175. Original post

The beginning of the thread. Welcome to DU :hi:

[Doc Martin]

252. Thanks!

[Lindacooks]

68. I see. And the pope's comments had nothing to do with it?

Please, try to use some common sense and logical reasoning skills. The pope's comments are what led to the nun's death, not his apology.

[LostinVA]

75. Bingo n/t

[Lindacooks]

206. Thank you!

[tritsofme]

109. So this person was not responsible for his own actions?

In killing the nun? The pope made him do it.

Sounds kind of like that rape victim was "asking" for it since she dressed like such a slut.

[Lindacooks]

205. No, I didn't say that.

The person I was responding to said it was because of the pope's apology. I was moving it back a step, saying that the original statement by the pope inflamed people.

And don't you dare ever compare me to rape apologists.

[smirkymonkey]

202. Now that's reaching....

Mr. A condemns a group that Mr. B is a member of. Mr. B. goes out and kills Ms. C, who is a member of the same group that Mr. A belongs to. Therefore, Mr. A killed Ms. C. I don't think it works that way.

And it certainly wouldn't hold up in a court of law. :eyes:

[Lindacooks]

204. Oh come on.

The person I was responding to was placing the blame for the nun's death on the pope's APOLOGY. I was moving it back a step, so it was at least logically reasonable.

[question everything]

230. The Pope did not kill the nun. The Pope did not call for anyone to

kill the nun. Are we supposed to excuse people who riot and shoot innocent people because they do not like what someone - even if it is the Pope - is saying?

How would people here react if Jews started killing Iranians because Ahmadinejad said that the Holocaust did not happen, or that Israel should cease to exist?

How can people on DU - a forum dedicated to democracy, to political debate - excuse killing, attacking, rioting in the name of religion?

[htuttle]

69. I guess that's why he's the pope - and you're not

[CarlVK]

184. I wouldn't want to be THIS Pope.

There are better uses of my time, like boring a hole in my head with a rusty keyhole saw.

[qwertyMike]

74. Perhaps the Nun was killed

BECAUSE of the Pope's statements.

[spoony]

110. She was killed

by the hatred in the heart of whoever pulled the trigger. No words, by anyone, can stir a normal person--of any religion--to do something like that.

[qwertyMike]

125. Really?

"Normal" ?

Like JFK, LBJ, and god knows who else.
What's the difference between Napalm and a bullet.

Of course they were politicians trying to save us from communism (arrrggggghhhh) by killing rice-farmers.

Maybe if we adopted the signs of the '50's saying "Yankee Go Home".
Go away -leave the world alone.

As for the Pope, why did he drag up a 600 year-old quote? I'm sure there are better ones to be found in the last 600 years. Yes there was a point to it, and it caused a Nun her life.

[spoony]

127. Sarcasm?

Yes really. What words could someone say to you to make you kill an innocent person not even connected to the insulting speech?

[qwertyMike]

143. Ask the person

Who was insulted by the slyly worded speech.

I would never kill anyone except child molesters.

The Pope knew what he was saying. The Muslim reaction one out of 21,000,000 was unfortunate and cruel.

I believe in God, but not Religion.

Poor Nun

[KingFlorez]

128. Right

[6000eliot]

94. Bullshit. Either he's an idiot for saying what he said,

or he has some kind of evil ulterior motive. What religious leader says something to inflame such a volatile situation?

[Truthiness Inspector]

99. I'm not surprised you are getting flamed

but you won't get any flames from me.

[question everything]

231. Thank you

It is hard to believe that people on DU - a forum dedicated to political debates - support and excuse religious zealotry.

[VOX]

239. "Religious zealotry" on who's part? The Pope waved a red flag at a bull...

And the bull charged. No one here, IMO, "supports and excuses religious zealotry," whether Muslim, Christian, or whatever.

But with the Middle East stirred up like a hornet's nest by the right wing, and with that same right wing -- and its dangerously oversimplistic view of Islam and the Middle East -- itching for a "Holy War" (read: **permanent** conflict), it's insanely stupid for anyone in a position of leadership to stir things up any worse. Which is what the Pope did.

It's not about catering to religious extremists, it's about using an ounce of diplomacy to save lives.

[nedbal]

261. Religion MEANS War!

[Bluebear]

106. What peaceful religious leader makes purposely inflammatory statements?

Talk about pouring gasoline on a fire.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

112. Of Course He Should've. What He Said Was Quite Simply Stupid And

insensitive.

When you say something that affects people to that much of a degree that you're walking around with your foot down your throat, regardless of your original intention, the only logical thing to do is to apologize. This is a hugely visible leader who needs to be a bit more careful in making sure that his statements do not carry a huge risk in being 'misunderstood'. If he says something that is taken in ways unintended but turn out to cause a huge stir, then it is absolutely the right thing to do for him to apologize for being the catalyst for those things.

The fact is, what he said was quite insensitive to an entire religious culture. I think he had an extremely poor judgement call that he made and should be a man and take back his words.

[KingFlorez]

126. Get real

He had no business saying it, he was labeling a religion. The religion isn't wrong, it's the people who twist it.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

135. Your conclusion is (sort of) right but your reasoning is wrong.

The Pope should not have *had* to apologise because there was nothing wrong with what he said - only stupid or misled people can't distinguish between "X said that" and "I think that" (although he should have apologised, because when you're the Pope you have a duty to quiten down interreligious friction even when it's unjustified), but the remark he quoted was wrong.

Michael Paleologus, were he still alive today, should apologise.

[mhatrw]

153. Question your own assumptions.

Imagine if the Pope quoted somebody in a speech who said that all black people are useless, violent thugs. Then, as a means of characterizing the response of the black community to this affront, the media widely broadcast gangsta rappers' reactions to the Pope's statement.

There's a lot of irony on all sides of the Pope's destructive provocation, including yours. BTW, he didn't actually apologize anymore than Dubya has for Iraq.

[nini]

160. Yes he should - because he lumped all peace-loving Muslims..

with fanatics.


Just like a real Christian doesn't want to be lumped with the nutcase fundies.

[CarlVK]

179. You'd think more folks on DU would have picked on that by now

Sheesh.

[Hatalles]

186. that sort of lumping is at the root of bigoted posts

... found here and elsewhere. This article does a good job of pointing out that sort of lumping...

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/confronting_the_monolith_the_struggle_against_islamophobia_and_osamaism/0010188

[Moochy]

225. But it's cool to call reason and respect "PC"

Plenty of dumbasses on this topic think it's cool to label that as "PC"

Their attitude seems to be racism exists, so why try and fight it? They glibly label basic respect for other cultures and logic as "PC". To be against making blanket statements about entire cultures based on the actions of groups of individuals we see on the magical TV box.

The OP author especially so, drive by inflammatory flame bait bullshit.
But I agree this definitely exposes the naked bigots and their fig leaves.

[Renew Deal]

168. question everything must die on the steps of DU.

:nuke:


;)

[question everything]

233. Brilliant. A well reasoned response full of facts

a winner of any debate.

:sarcasm:

[Moochy]

254. The irony was lost on you

but that's ok, its hard to see past those blinders sometimes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

178. George Allen should not have apologized.

recent events -like that black guy killing a nun - proved the truth of the quote.

[stepnw1f]

182. lol... right on! (nt)

[stepnw1f]

180. The Truth? He Should Have Apologized

for inflaming already high tensions in a volatile middle east. You'd think such an educated, pios and enlightened man would measure his words a bit more. Real STUPID!

Get this through your head: the WEST OCCUPIES the MIDDLE EAST. The West supports dictatorship in the Middle East....

How would you feel if the middle East occupied our country, then you heard a religious leader on their side say some pretty idiotic things about you? You wouldn't see his words as "rubbing it in"? Ahhh... no you are American so you are speshullll.... bullshit egos...

[Karenina]

196. No stupidity involved. Nur INTENT.

Kabarettist, als meine Frendin gesagt hat. This was no "slip of the tongue."

[stepnw1f]

253. I'm Starting to Think So Too

but I was giving him the benfit of the doubt.

[JerseygirlCT]

193. I disagree

Having now read his statement, I am still mystified as to his lack of judgement in using that quote -- even though the rest of the speech made good points. I think he got caught up in his scholarship, and forgot he lives in the real world now.

And his comments were hurtful. Whether they were intended to be or not, they were. So an apology was most certainly in order, particularly coming from someone in his position.

The reaction from some in the Muslim world is most certainly ridiculous. Hurtful words shouldn't be met with violence -- particularly violence directed at innocents. But the actions of a relative few idiots shouldn't color our view of Islam as a whole.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

195. He should be proud that he threw kerosene on the fire.

Whatta guy. So very helpful adding his stupid voice to the religious turmoil engulfing the world.

Either he is incredibly stupid or so convinced of his own righteousness that he borders on being as sociopathic as Bush and the Jihadists.

[Arugula Latte]

198. Religion tends to make people nutty.

Rational thought goes out the window the minute someone embraces supernatural mythology of any sort.

[Name removed]

207. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pyro858]

210. The Pope Should Apologize

To all the children molested by his perverted priests.

[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[libhill]

214. I believe the apology was necessary,

but having been proffered, that's the end of it as far as I am concerned. He shouldn't have to grovel. But I am convinced that religionists, what ever their stripe, are at the root of most of the problems in the world. Radical Muslims, Christians, and Jews won't be content until the world goes up in flames. Devil take them all.

[Warren DeMontague]

218. Nope. He should have done this, instead:

[Cocoa]

227. using a dead nun for flame bait

that'll cost you 10 hail marys please.

[wiley]

237. How bout for decades of molesting little boys and girls?

Get real. I now believe this is some quid pro quo for those who want to influence American politics. Catholics are not under attack. Christians are not under attack. Common sense and intelligence and true Christians are. Yet another one who doesn't understand the concept "World Leader".

He's not in academia anymore. Shall we discuss the extreme torture during the Crusades - the "Pear" has always repulsed and appalled me - and start a dialogue about women's rights in third world countries in Islamic countries? Last I looked The Vatican was considered a sovereign country or something like that, not a symposium center.

[LibertyorDeath]

238. The Pope is a complete fucking asshole

and your post is Shit!

[nedbal]

262. “agent of the Americans.”

[midnight]

244. This pope should not tweak people who are worked up in a

blood bath. Something the US had a hand in. He should incourage peace,and find examples in their holy writings that can reach these people.

[Skidmore]

245. The Pope should never have made the comments to begin with.

They were beyond ill-advised.

[Eurobabe]

247. Fuck organized religion

eom

[Harper_is_Bush]

248. The Pope should be in jail for ostruction of justice

he signed a letter giving bishops the authority to hide evidence in cases of child molestation.

Were you aware of that?

I guess that proves that not only all Catholics are either child molesters or will aid and abet child molesters.

[YOY]

249. Yes he should have

and no, that does not vindiate the slaying of the nuns or the actions of any extremist.

[GeorgeGist]

251. The pot and the kettle...

need never apologize for calling each other black.

[Imagevision]

258. I'm not Catholic and I back the Pope, their too stupid to understand

screw em! - I didn't feature the; "God is great" mantra in Flght 93

[spacelady]

260. Could you please translate your post into Saneglish? Thank You.

[spacelady]

259. So, the Pope was Compelled to utter this "scholarly discourse" at this

particular juncture in order to "spur" academic debate? Oh my goodness, it was taken out of context? (Wide eyed, Innocent look). Give me a break, the POPE is not that ignorant, or if he is, a query as to his competence is in order.
IMO, he knew exactly what he was saying and the response was predictable. He can "apologize" all he wants, his remarks are still causing ill will like a big stinky albatross in the room. The bell cannot be unrung.

[JVS]

263. The Pope shouldn't have apologized because doing so sent...

the message that violence is an appropriate way to respond to speech that you don't like.

[Nikki Stone 1]

264. "Fox News Offers Pope His Own Show" :)

In what many in religious and broadcasting circles are calling an unprecedented development, the Fox News Channel today announced that it had offered Pope Benedict XVI his own show as part of their weekly primetime lineup.

The program, which will be broadcast live from a specially built television studio in Vatican City, will be called "The Pope Benedict XVI Factor" and will feature the outspoken pontiff shooting from the hip on a variety of topics.

Fox, which is currently home to such conservative commentators as Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity, surprised many in the television industry by reaching out to one of the world's most powerful religious leaders to host a nightly news program.

But according to Fox spokesperson Carol Foyler, the Pope's recent comments about Islam, which succeeded in alienating millions of Muslims around the world, showed that the pontiff and Fox were "a good fit."

Elsewhere, British Prime Minister Tony Blair said he was looking forward to leaving office so he could spend more “alone time” with President Bush.

Elsewhere (2), reacting to the Pope's recent gaffes about Muslims, President Bush said. "I guess I'm the only person left who's infallible."

Elsewhere (3), responding to widespread criticism, President Bush said today that the United States' practice of torturing innocent Canadian photojournalists was "under review."

Satire by Andy Borowitz at http://www.borowitzreport.com