anti-choice sign today: "Peace Begins in the Womb"!

[leftchick]

<snip>

SAN FRANCISCO - Thousands of abortion opponents shouldering signs with slogans such as "Peace Begins in the Womb" marched in protest of the 33-year-old Roe v. Wade decision, while abortion rights supporters along the march route waved clothes hangers and shouted "Bigots go home."

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/13686598.htm

If that is true then what the hell happened to Barbara's womb???

:puke:

[DemBones DemBones]

1. So you don't support the rights of others

to disagree with you?

Pro-lifers carry signs that suggest "Peace Begins in the Womb" while pro-choicers shout "Bigots Go Home!"

Apparently there is only one choice to the supposedly "pro-choice," and to suggest that there is another choice somehow makes one a bigot. That's not only illogical but unfair.

Those who reply "They only care about unborn life" are making a vast assumption about a large number of people. You do not know how many of them oppose capital punishment and war as well as abortion and euthanasia. To judge without knowledge seems to me to be the essence of bigotry.

Edited for clarity

[bliss_eternal]

6. You have the right to refuse, of course...

just thought you may be open to this, since your post talks about judging w/out knowledge. It becomes easier for those opposite this issue to place us all in a box, based on the language used surrounding this issue. If I may I'd like to ask you to please call them 'anti-choice' or 'anti-abortion' instead of pro-life, or to at least consider what I'm asking you to consider.

To call them pro-life suggests that the other side (pro-choice) is anti-life, which is a negative spin on pro-choice.

Maybe totally silly to you, but something (in my opinion) that we, as progressives should be aware of--what language we choose to utilize.

[DemBones DemBones]

13. I'll gladly call myself

"anti-abortion" if you'll call yourself "pro-abortion."

I think most "pro-choice" people are unwilling to do that, though, so I'm willing to extend them the courtesy of using their chosen terminology for themselves, so long as they do the same for me. But you suggest you're not willing to call me "pro-life" and in fact most people here would insist on calling me "anti-choice."

For most people, "pro-life" is about more than opposing abortion. I call myself "pro-life" because I'm opposed to killing -- war, capital punishment, euthanasia, and abortion. All involve choosing to kill someone or some class of people viewed as unworthy of life.

Why is it that the left, in general, opposes war and capital punishment, which kill people believed to be guilty of being enemies of our nation or of capital crimes but favors euthanasia and abortion, which kill people who are innocent because their lives are an inconvenience to someone else?

[bliss_eternal]

22. Why is it

that you make statements admonishing people on this board for making assumptions of others(on the right, anti-choice, etc.) while you do the very same thing yourself?

Quote:
Why is it that the left, in general, opposes war and capital punishment, which kill people believed to be guilty of being enemies of our nation or of capital crimes but favors euthanasia and abortion, which kill people who are innocent because their lives are an inconvenience to someone else?

This is frankly hypocritical, condescending and rather presumptive. I'm very sorry I tried to engage you in conversation. Your nastiness makes you unpleasant to communicate with. Sorry I bothered.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oldcoot]

24. Because many pro-choice people are not pro-abortion

Personally, I call myself pro-choice because I believe that I have absolutely no right to interfere with a woman's personal medical decisions. If she wishes to get an abortion, that is her business. If she would rather give birth and keep the child or give it up for adoption, that is also her business. I am not going to lecture her about her decision either way because it is really none of my business.

However, I do believe that more should be done to offer men and women real alternatives so that many do not have to turn to abortion. I believe that effective and affordable birth control should be easily available to any woman who wants it. Pro-lifers could help greatly be refusing to support those pharmacists who refuse to fill women's prescriptions for birth control pills. I also believe that we should put as much effort into developing a birth control pill for men as we do in providing them with Viagra.

As for euthanasia, I again believe that a terminally-ill patient should have the right to make this decision. After all, not everyone believes in "life under all circumstances." Of course, some protective measures should be taken to protect terminally-ill patients from greedy relatives who may not have their "loved ones'" best interests at heart. One possible solution would be to allow private citizens to stipulate in their living wills the circumstances under which they want to be euthanized (if any). An independent health care professional could then interview the person without the family present to make sure this is what the individual wants. However, under no circumstances do I think that a hospital should be allowed to make this decision for the patient without the patient's consent.

[bliss_eternal]

28. oldcoot of course not--

and it is unfair to state such an assumption or generality about pro-choicers.

Quote:
Because many pro-choice people are not pro-abortion

thank you for saying so.

[DemBones DemBones]

37. My argument is that if you (not you personally, but you as the

pro-choice movement) persist in saying that pro-life people are "anti-choice," than pro-life people have every right to insist that you are "pro-abortion."

I understand your argument, do you understand mine?

I suggest that each side should respect the other side's chosen terminology. Pro-choicers calling pro-lifers "anti-choice" is the same sort of shabby trick as Republicans talking about the Democrat Party, the Democrat senator, etc.

The pro-choice people at DU make a lot of assumptions about pro-lifers, assumptions that prevent any dialogue. Democrats need to stop telling pro-lifers their votes aren't wanted. We are supposed to be the big tent, the party of tolerance, are we not?

[Zhade]

47. Using "pro-life" opposite "pro-choice" is a LIE.

It paints those for choice as anti-life. That's a lie, and you fucking well know it.

[bliss_eternal]

54. Thank you Zhade.

That is EXACTLY what I took exception with.

[Zenlitened]

61. "I understand your argument, do you understand mine?"

Yes. And it is a false argument.

Makes clever use of semantics, I'll grant you that.

But advocating that a woman be empowered to make her own choice is in no way comparable to advocating she choose abortion.

However advocating that women be denied to opportunity to choose abortion is, in fact, anti-choice.

[bliss_eternal]

25. For the record dembones--

When I posted asking you to consider using different language, it was as one that wasn't aware you were stating your own personal perspective or view.

I did not presume you 'anti-choice', 'pro-life' or anything else.

[DemBones DemBones]

42. I think we agree that language is important.

So why not let each "side" define/name itself? When I say I'm pro-life, I mean I'm opposed to killing humans, not simply to abortion.

I don't think of people who are pro-choice as being "anti-life" or "pro-abortion" but as thinking that abortion is an acceptable choice.

If we (as groups) could stop arguing over terminology and try to see each other's point of view, we might make some progress on the abortion issue.

I'm for abortion being safe, legal, and rare. A lot of pro-life people agree with that; they're not all opposed to abortion in every circumstance. It doesn't seem that pro-life people want to see abortion become rare, or at least they don't seem to be talking about it. Pro-choicers on the whole seem content with over a million abortions a year in the U.S. Perhaps you'd agree that it would be better if abortion became a rare procedure because of increased demand, not because of increased restrictions.

Why should any woman have to go through an abortion if education about reproduction and contraception plus use of contraceptives could have prevented her pregnancy? Women won't be free and equal as long as we continue to conceive when we're not ready to have a baby.

[bliss_eternal]

53. Why does this statement need to be made?

Quote:
Pro-choicers on the whole seem content with over a million abortions a year in the U.S.

Again you are generalizing. Why do you need to try to speak for the feelings of an entire group of people that you obviously disagree with?

[girl gone mad]

26. I hope you are opposed to masturbation, too.

Those sperm cells are as alive as anything I've ever seen.

Are you for outlawing the consumption of meat? Or do you consider cows, chicken and fish unworthy of life?

[DemBones DemBones]

32. Sperm are NOT human beings. nt

[Sparkly]

35. Not everyone thinks a fertilized egg is, either. nt

[DemBones DemBones]

39. When a sperm and egg unite, a zygote is formed and that IS a new human

being; from conception, the embryo has its complete human genotype (assuming we are talking about human sperm and human egg uniting, as we are here), and immediately begins to grow, divide, require energy -- all traits used by biologists to distinguish a living thing from a nonliving thing. An embryo, no matter how "early," is living.

[Zhade]

48. There isn't a new consciousness there until the cerebral cortex forms.

So it's as 'human' as a donor organ.

Do you oppose transplants, too?

[DemBones DemBones]

50. But, barring abortion -- whether spontaneous or induced -- the

cerebral cortex and consciousness WILL develop. We don't know how much consciousness babies have but, Peter Singer aside, few people think parents should be able to freely kill children under two years of age. Certainly, consciousness continues to develop up to a certain point (like when someone joins the GOP, say.)

No, I'm not opposed to transplants since organs aren't organisms and since donor organs are taken from people who are brain dead OR from people who are living and not harmed by the transplant -- you can spare a kidney or a piece of your liver, for example, to help save a sibling or other close match. Also, the donors have generally given their consent before their death.

[girl gone mad]

57. Ridiculous.

If the correct set of conditions are met, a zygote might develop into an embryo might develop into a fetus might develop into a baby. Guess what? The majority of the time, those conditions are not met.

If the correct conditions are met, a sperm cell will develop into a baby, too.

Who decides that life begins at the moment of conception and not the moment of ejaculation? You? One is every bit as random as the other.

How far are you willing to take your commitment to protecting life which you say begins "from the moment of conception"? Would you force women of childbearing age to take vitamin supplements and avoid caffeine? Poor nutrition and caffeine intake are thought to be linked to a large number of spontaneous abortions. What about in vitro fertilization? Do you want to have that outlawed as well?

[girl gone mad]

55. And zygotes are? n/t

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemBones DemBones]

33. Deleted by poster

Deleted by poster

[Zhade]

45. Not all pro-choice people would use abortion.

Many of them don't like abortion, but recognize that the liberal, progressive thing to do is to let all choose for themselves.

Really not a hard distinction, and to suggest that all those who support choice are thrilled with the idea of abortion itself is intellectually dishonest, as you've been here long enough to know that's not true.

[Progressive4Life]

51. Hypocrites

These people oppose that women have the choice to end pregnancy, yet oppose comprehensive sex education and the availability of emergency contraception (or even traditional birth control pills, for that matter), both of which would dramatically reduce the number of abortions each year.

And here's something else to chew on. If we allow the government to tell women they can't terminate their pregnancies, what next? No tubal ligations, which would really prevent unwanted pregnancies? No treatment for life-threatening conditions if there is the slightest chance you may be pregnant? Dangerous Pandora's Box these anti-choicers are dealing with.

[Solo_in_MD]

9. There is a certain amount of knee jerk in the progressive community

about the pro-lifers. Many assume they are all rabid Jerry Falwell clones. However there are those who are truly pro-life in all respects (no war, no capital punishment, no euthanasia, no abortion...) whom I have a tremendous amount of respect for.

IMO we need to be the bigger tent and be able to include those with whom we have common vision and tolerate some difference in viewpoint. Doctrinaire elitism should be the province of the right, though it seems we practice more of it in the progressive movement. There are many issues where disagreeing with one side does not make one a bigot.

[DemBones DemBones]

15. Yes, yes, yes. nt

[Zhade]

49. Knee-jerk in defense of fundamental rights, maybe.

I wouldn't consider that a really terrible thing, myself.

Personally, I don't care if people want to believe whatever. Once they decide that *I* have to act as if I believe the same, and start moving to enforce THEIR beliefs against our rights, then I'll rip them to shreds if need be.

Choice is not up for negotiation. Period.

[Solo_in_MD]

52. Actually that is exactly what they experience...

They oppose the taking of a life for any reason. I respect that, though disagree WRT anyone having control over another's body. Then again they don't burn or picket women's health centers.

However, they are often rejected by many doctrinal purity bigots who insist that they change their beliefs before they can be considered fit to call themselves progressives. Another similar example are those who insist you can not be pro gun and progressive. Another case of doctrinal bigotry we can ill afford. We need to be the big tent where those with common goals can work towards them (equity, social justice...) and I see less of that as the days go by.

[Crowdance]

70. "If you are anti-choice, DON'T vote for me......"

I can't recall EVER hearing that statement from a Democrat.

Call yourself whatever you like. What do you care if others consider you non-progressive? As long as you continue to VOTE progressive, despite your opposition to abortion, I don't care what you believe. I'd love to see anti-choice "progressives" stop the ranting and define exactly what they want to happen. Will it be you who steps to the plate? If not, you perpetuate the creepy feeling that all of us pro-choice progressives have that you just want us all to shut up and let you have your way with us.

BTW, the "bigotry" charge just doesn't float. Pro-choice folks don't want to deny you any of your rights because you have an untenable postion. Sadly, I can't say the same for anti-choicers.

[Zenlitened]

62. "There are those who are truly pro-life..."

Are they also anti-choice? I think that's where the conflict arises.

[Misunderestimator]

27. Um... pro-choice is ALL about choice.

It's the other side of the fight that tries to dictate no choice at all. It's a huge stretch to pretend that those of us for choice would not want anyone to give birth, which is what you are suggesting, to imply that there is only one choice. Your side, however, would like to force only one choice on the rest of us.

Anti-abortionists who also oppose the death penalty and war.... I haven't met any.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. Hi. Nice To Meet You.

:hi:

I'm against abortion in 99% of circumstances, but 100% against the death penalty and also 100% against war on the offense.

So much for that.

[Misunderestimator]

59. What exactly does that 1% of circumstances mean to you?

Anyone who gets an abortion in the first trimester? That's far more than 1%. I think you're exagerrating.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

64. Nope. Only Rape, Severe Disability, Or Endangerment Of Health.

I don't agree with abortion outside of those instances, such as when used on an otherwise healthy embryo/fetus and there's no medical reason the mother can't carry to term.

[Misunderestimator]

65. Then that's far more than 1%.

Basically, as I thought, you would rather control a woman's right to her own body.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

66. Probably Not By All That Much.

And don't be so quick to negatively judge and arrogantly proclaim "Aha, Just As I thought", when the absurdity of that statement would become apparent at the lack of any context showing I want to control any womans right to anything.

[Misunderestimator]

69. Aha!

How was I arrogant? You clearly don't think that women have the right to have an abortion except for medical necessity. Perhaps I misunderstood? You do support a woman's rights over her own body?

Context? You are the one who said that you disagreed with abortion in 99% of cases, which means to me that you do not support a woman's right to choose, since choice makes up far more than 1% of abortion cases, and not medical necessity. What did you mean then?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. I Said I Don't Agree Or Condone It. Never Said I'd Force My Ideals On You

It would suit you better to not see things in such black and white terms.

See, I'm allowed to think that abortion other than medically necessary is inappropriate, selfish or misguided. I'm also allowed to feel that you have the choice to do what you want and God can be the judge, as that isn't my place.

I'm Pro-Choice but Anti-Abortion. I do not think it is morally right at all, but respect your and others rights to morally hold a different view.

Please respect my choice as I respect yours.

Thank you.

[Misunderestimator]

72. That's great. Glad I misunderstood. I'm glad you are pro-choice.

And sorry that you think it is morally wrong. I have never had nor ever will have an abortion, but it's very important to me that women have rights over our own bodies. I am thrilled that you agree with me.

Thank you.

[Zenlitened]

63. "I'm against abortion in 99% of circumstances..."

So, you're pro-choice then?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zhade]

44. As long as others don't try to restrict rights...

...they can believe whatever they wish.

It's that simple.

[Double T]

2. The Immaculate Deception?

[DanCa]

3. Keg after Keg during Dubya's pregnancy happened in Bab's womb.

Wish i was there so I could bring my bat with me. Hey if they want to keep me in a wheel chair I'd show them what the old testament really means when it says eye for an eye.

[elehhhhna]

4. Freedom begins with the womb too. If my womb ain't personal, I

don't know what is.

[Solly Mack]

5. If people want back in the womb so badly, they have mothers

- crawl back in there - or take yoga until you can swallow yourself up in your own womb

just stay the fuck out of mine

[Solo_in_MD]

10. IIRC that was also an epithet

Spartan mothers threw at their sons when they showed fear or remorse over a battle (crawl back up there...).

[Solly Mack]

11. That wasn't very nice now was it?

but then look at the way Spartans were indoctrinated.....

[leftchick]

17. bingo!

;)

[Solly Mack]

20. And I didn't even have to draw the connection myself

lol

:)

[NYC]

7. Is that womb walking around independently?

Or is it part of a woman? Perhaps we should focus on the rights of women.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

23. Like those 25,000 women who become pregnant by rape every year.

My jaw dropped when I heard that # this morning.

We also have the highest rate of infant mortality in the industrialized world.

They don't seem to care about these babies after they're born. Lakoff made some good points about this, it's all part of the Strict Father model.

You have had sex (bad!) and the punishment for that is having the baby whether it's wanted or not.

[bliss_eternal]

29. I think of all the babies that

go into the foster care system that never get adopted because they are 'of color.' They happen to be born black, hispanic, biracial or multi-racial. There's also the babies that are born drug exposed, with Hiv or Aids and that no one wants because they aren't 'perfect.'

What happens to those? Does anti-choice advocates adopt them, or advocate that others do? Do they support these children to give them a fair chance in life?

[SPKrazy]

8. Barbara is shall we say, NOT HUMAN!

therefore she doesn't even count!

:rofl:

[sarcasmo]

12. Bigots go home, that is the best.

[DanCa]

14. Peace begins in the womb is that why Dubya wants to invade it?

Or has he been spending to much time in a fetal state under his desk again ?

[Solly Mack]

18. LOL! Good one. He saw WOMB and thought WMD.

[DanCa]

19. well you know speaking of gop memes

GOP IS GOD GOD IS GOP
GOD IS GOP GOP IS GOD

[Zenlitened]

16. Whuh... wha... what the hell does that even mean?

Do these people put any thought at all into their rantings?

:crazy:

[leftchick]

21. in a word...

No...

:crazy:

[Sparkly]

34. Reply: Fine, then leave me and my womb in peace. nt

[Deja Q]

36. Okey doke then. Make sure nobody gets pregnant. Then

we'll have everlasting peace.
:eyes:

[Drewskie]

40. they should spend some time in china

where there are so many frickin people all the food is rationed and no one can have more than one kid. Abortions are certainly welcomed in china... It's either that or mass starvation. The land of plenty is'nt there yet, but it might happen eventually.

[johnfunk]

41. Peace Begins in the Womb: Abort Neocons!

There's a bumper sticker I could go for...

[Charlie Brown]

43. "...and ends in Iraq" n/t

[Stockholm]

56. My baby is pro-choice - LOL

[TimeChaser]

68. I love it!

It get so pissed off by the "Your mom was pro-life" bumperstickers :grr:

My mom was and is pro-choice thank you very much!

[renter]

58. A question please...

A short while ago there were many posts against the execution of a Mr. "Tookie" Williams. I agree, the death penalty is not right. An unborn child deserves this same right. I find it wrong that one would be pro-choice/pro-life (take your pick) on one and not the other. There are other forms of birth control.

[TimeChaser]

67. Abortion is *not* birth control

Abortion (in my own opinion) is for when birth control fails/ is used improperly due to lack of good sex ed, when the mother's health would be threatened if she brought the baby to term, or in the case of rape and/or incest.

[ComerPerro]

60. Bringing coathangers was a great idea!