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Who Is REALLY Responsible For 9/11

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The Deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:31 PM
Original message
Who Is REALLY Responsible For 9/11
FACT: The Reagan Administration secretly supplied arms to the mujahadin during Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. To provide "plausible deniability" the money & arms were distributed through Pakistani Intelligence - overwhelmingly to Islamist groups.
RESULT: Rise of Osama bin Laden & the Taliban, thousands of weapons unaccounted for when war ended.

FACT: The Reagan Administration secretly supplied arms & spare parts to Iran during Iran-Iraq War while secretly supplying satellite intelligence to Iraq.
RESULT: Iran IS NOT defeated by Iraq, ayatollahs more deeply entrenched than ever over secular elements. Iraq learns (during Iran-Contra Scandal) of America's duplicity in prolonging War, Saddam Hussein now considers all American pronouncements "flexible." Severe economic damage to Iraq from cost of prolonged War sets up rationale for invasion of Kuwait.

FACT: The Reagan Administration, in response to Lebanese Civil War, stations Marines in Beirut barracks. In response to car bomb attack on U.S. Embassy - for which no responsibility has ever been established - American warships shell predominately Shi'ia neighborhood in Beirut. In retaliation, Hezbollah (newly formed in response to Israel's invasion of South Lebanon) bombs Marine barracks, resulting in largest loss of American servicemen since Vietnam War and until present invasion of Iraq. Reagan pulls Marines out of Beirut three months later.
RESULT: Before bombings of U.S. Embassies in Kenya & Tanzania, Osama bin Laden points to Beirut bombing as proof that U.S. policy can be changed by "martyr operations" - as long as the death toll is high enough.

FACT: Hezbollah, probably with encouragement from Iranian ayatollahs, kidnaps U.S. citizens in Lebanon. The Reagan Administration secretly offers arms & spare parts to Iran, fighting an invasion by Iraq, to secure release of hostages.
RESULT: Iran becomes regional power through surrogate Hezbollah (and Iraqi Shiites when, during the first Bush Administration, they are encouraged to revolt by U.S. after Gulf War & then left to be slaughtered by Saddam's forces.) Hezbollah grows in power as arm of Iran's Revolutionary Guards, taking U.S. citizens hostage in Lebanon many times to extort more arms for Iran from Reagan Administration.

FACT: Due to the Reagan Administration's policies during Iran-Iraq War, Saddam Hussein is deeply in debt to other Arab nations, especially Kuwait. After being assured by Ambassador Gillespie (a Reagan appointee) that the U.S. "has no position on your border dispute with Kuwait," Hussein invades Kuwait. The United States, joined by many other non-Muslim nations, stations troops in Saudi Arabia to defend the Kingdom.
RESULT: Osama bin Laden, already a powerful voice due to his successes in the Afghan War (aided by considerable support from the Reagan Administration) uses this "Occupation" by "Crusader Forces" to rally Islamist groups around an umbrella organization: al-Qaeda, or "The Base."

Conclusions
The Reagan Administration (many of whose prominent members are members of the present Bush Administration) is directly responsible, through their secret policies in the Middle East, for:
1. The September 11th Attacks on the World Trade Center & the Pentagon (both in creating the conditions for the rise of Osama bin Laden & in giving him the rationale for the attacks.)
2. The attacks on the U.S. Embassies in Kenya & Tanzania and the attack on the U.S.S. Cole (see above.)
3. The rise of Hezbollah (as opposed to other groups in South Lebanon fighting the Israeli Occupation) by rewarding Iran, through arms sales, for Hezbollah's hostage taking.
4. The rise of Iran to become a regional power (by enabling them to survive the invasion by Iraq & rewarding them for Hezbollah's terrorist activities. Also by setting up conditions which led to the radicalizing of Iraq's Shiites.)
5. The current Iraqi Civil War - by setting in motion the forces which would lead to the radicalizing of Iraq's Shiites and to the radicalizing of the region's Sunnis (al-Qaeda.)

So, with these examples (and the "FACTS" are so well known I didn't bother with citations - a few minutes with any competent search engine should yield more information than you could ever want) I think we can conclude that the errors we are today paying for can be laid squarely at the feet of Ronald Wilson Reagan.
We could, also, consider other missteps of the Reagan Administration in the region - notably how bombing Libya in retaliation for a Syrian-backed bombing of a disco which led directly to the downing of a Pan Am jumbo jet over Lockerbie, Scotland - but I think those already spelled out will suffice to show the dangers of Cowboy Diplomacy - whether we are talking about a California Cowboy or a Connecticut Cowboy.
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kick and recommend! Good synopsis, Deacon!
:thumbsup:
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. Answer: Al Qaeda and the hijackers
The blame game that goes on over 9-11 makes me sick. The people responsible are the terrorists who pulled it off - not Reagan, not Bush 41, not Clinton, and not Bush 43.

Could it have been stopped? Maybe. Does that matter as far as blame for the attacks go? Not a bit.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Oh, there's plenty of blame to go around.
Could it have been stopped? Most certainly.

It's not terribly hard to stop 18 men armed with exactoknives.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I don't blame a rape victim, either.
Blaming the victim is absolute meadness, IMO.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. LOL.
As if George Bush is a victim.

Shit, even Osama bin Laden didn't profit from 9-11 as much as Bush did.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. George Bush wasn't killed on 9-11
But a lot of Americans (and foreigners) were. Those are the victims I'm talking about, as well as this nation as a whole. We were very clearly victimized by a terrorist attack. I'm not sure how you could possibly disagree with that.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Sure.
And George Bush is responsible, in part, for their deaths. He could have prevented it, he was more interested in fucking around.

Just like with Katrina.

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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Fine. He certainly dropped the ball.
But the full blame and responsibility for the attack goes on the folks who did it. Feel free to disagree.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Who said anything about full responsibility?
He certainly has more responsibility than, say, Saddam Hussein.

And look what happened to him.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
31. Bush was not the victim of 9/11. He was the victor.
Edited on Wed Sep-06-06 02:07 PM by petgoat
If you place "the full responsibility" on the alleged hijackers,
you place none of Pres. Bush.

He ignored warnings from 11 foreign countries and 3 FBI offices.
The Mossad provided a list of names of 19 terrorists in the USA
planning something big. Only four of the names have been released,
but all four are suspected 9/11 hijackers.

Probably that's why the FBI was able to id the perps so quick, was
because the Mossad gave them the cast of characters beforehand.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. We ought to be blaming ourselves...
for letting the U.S. foreign policy get to this point, where the vast majority of the rest of the world hates our guts.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Nothing makes a terrorist attack OK.
Sorry, but I don't buy it. There are ways to address grievances that don't involve the wholesale slaughter of 3000 innocent civilians with hijacked airplanes.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. No, you are right...
it doesn't make it okay.

And it wasn't okay to go in and slaughter possibly tens of thousands of Iraqi citizens in retaliation for an act that they had nothing to do with. The only thing that accomplished was to make more people hate us and want to do us harm.

What I'm saying is that the U.S. policy towards the rest of the world has brought us to this point. That is our fault as citizens, for allowing that to happen. We continue to allow it to happen. Innocent people will continue to die.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. Reasons aren't excuses.
Finding a reason for an action is not excusing the action.
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davidwparker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
33. really? isn't the Iraqi occupation about oil and controling the oil region
There's close to 3000 troop deaths and a few hundred thousand Iraqi deaths.

Now, what wouldn't people do again?
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. you only know this
you only 'know' this from the media and some white washed info from the 911 commission. You don't know what went on.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Look, if you want to believe a US government did 9-11....
...that's fine. You're welcome to your opinion. I don't share it.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Please read through the list again....
MIHOP was not mentioned.

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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I wasn't responding to the list with that reply
I was responding to a different poster above.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. who said anything about this government?
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Sorry if I misunderstood.
I thought you were making some kind of MIHOP allegation. I find those to be repulsive.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. There are a lot of people out there
who would participate in that attack and not just the usual Osama-type terrorists.
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The Deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. The Ultimate Reason Behind Assigning
Responsiblity for results is not so much to "blame" (after all, Reagan is dead & beyond any court action) as to understand what went wrong & try to avoid it in the future. As long as American Presidents act in the Middle East & Southwest Asia according to some simplistic "Black-and-white, good-vs-evil" understanding which fails to account for the rich history, complex ethnic & religious background and our past interactions we will continue to see nothing but death & destruction in the area.
By attaching themselves to a Cowboy Western mythos of "Wanted, Dead or Alive" Reagan & Bush 43 continued to irritate a wound the West helped to create. 9/11 was just some of the pus oozing out of the larger wound. I think I'd rather seek to treat the cause of the infection than just continue to wipe away the pus.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. Okay: hypothetical situation...
If my sister was walking down the street and was attacked and killed by a guy, well, I would definitely blame the guy.

But if I found out that he had been in prison, say, and let out before his sentence was up, and then trained in the art of murder, and then PAID to kill random women in the street... I wouldn't say, "Well, there's plenty of blame to go around! Why are we blaming the people who trained and paid the killer? It won't bring my sister back!"

That's how I feel about 9-11.
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winter999 Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I agree with you 100%
I'd only like to add that there's more guys out there.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. Hey, you want to know what I'M repulsed by?
Edited on Wed Sep-06-06 01:53 PM by HughBeaumont
People who choose to have their head so far buried in the fucking sand that they can't tell the light on their bullshit detector died years ago. NOT ONE part of the events surrounding 9/11 passes ANY kind of smell test whatsoever. MIHOP does not require you to believe in what cannot be proven. Every DOCUMENTED failure that happened prior to, during and after 9/11 points to the Boxcutter 19 being assisted, ignored at entry points, trained on and around our shores, allowed on planes, allowed to hijack 4 planes at the same time, allowed to have a 48 minute joyride through DC airspace, and ALLOWED to kill thousands of our citizens and change the course of history for what looks like forever.

Who allowed all of this to happen and did ABSOLUTELY nothing?

THE UNITED STATES MOTHERFUCKING GOVERNMENT, THAT'S WHO!!! Bush 41, Reagan, the Clinton Congress (NOT Clinton himself; he KNEW the importance and his efforts were muzzled by these shitheads) and most of all, the sons of fucking bitches that comprise the corporate-serving-by-ANY-means-necessary, fearmongering, ubiquitous, police-state, rapture-rightist Bush Administration. It's about goddamned time the people of this country stopped fucking around and call the Bush Administration on what they failed at and still CONTINUE to fail at miserably and that's protecting the rights of this Constitution and keeping this country safe. It's about fucking time the media started growing a set and started asking them hard questions on why NORAD, the FAA, the government, NSA, CIA, FBI, etc, FAILED and when they get brushed off or dogded to KEEP AT IT. Fuck their "I'm more powerful than you and you shouldn't ask this of us, you moonbat. . ." stance, FUCK them. They ain't kings and this isn't the Totalitarian nation they dream of. We have rights in this country.

You want to believe the long-debunked myth that your government cares about it's "lesser" citizenry and your enemies are "everyone else" and we had absolutely NO hand in creating and enabling the Boxcutter 19, be my goddamned guest. But don't get all pissed and huffy when faced with a truth you'd rather not stomach.
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davidwparker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I clicked on your documents link and was pleased to see that you
were referencing the DVD that I'm awaiting. It's suppose to be shipped soon.

It WAS an inside job. Just don't post that on DailyKos.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Not even an hors d'ouevre of CD with Thompson.
That's why I reference him above all others - it's more difficult for the OCTers to dispute hard facts about that day and ignore the dubiousness of them to fit their worldview.

I, too, am waiting anxiously for that DVD.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
30. If your dog bites my daughter it's your fault.
Have you considered that Osama might be Bush's dog?

If you take my daughter for a walk and you let
her wander onto a golf course and she gets beaned
by a golf ball, it's your fault.
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davidwparker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
32. Be enlightened. Click the link.
http://physics911.net

Who had the authority (government) and motive (Bush administration) to have 9/11 happen? Everything the Bush administration has done depended on 9/11 happending.

It's a hard pill to swallow. I didn't see it at first, but now it's unfortunately crystal clear.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. others calling
certainly Bush et al were 'taken by surprise' but the decision came from other sources, not terrorist organisations. One could speculate that some in this government had a gun to their head so to speak? One would suspect Cheney and Rumsfeld?
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davidwparker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. From that Frontline show, it seems that Cheney and Rumsfeld are
really the president and vp. They set up parallel departments and staff that are usually the presidents. This is why I don't think either will be removed from office unless the dems take over both houses. You really have to impeach the Chimp to get to Cheney.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
10. The people who are responsible for the attacks have been well-hidden
the hijacker theory is only part of it. You only know what they tell you (and it may not be true).
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Submariner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
23. ALAH & GOD & ALLAH & GOD & ALLAH & GOD, Ad Infinitum
The belief in these imaginary sky-people is the obvious answer to your query "Who Is REALLY Responsible For 9/11."

If the Islamists DID NOT BELIEVE in that hokey 72 virgins bullshit then I seriously doubt they would have offed themselves with no promise of a "Here After". The Christianists follow the same principle believing in a "Here After" in a place called Heaven.

I rest my case.

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
27. Who's reponsible? A Jungian friend of the family seems to think I am. nt
Edited on Wed Sep-06-06 02:07 PM by petgoat
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