The classism showed by some of the more well off DUers is pathetic.

[Odin2005]

When low-income people have to shop at Wal-Fart and eat cheap, proccessed food to make ends meet they don't need to be scolded by better off DUers who have the luxury of having enough money to shop elsewhere and not eat Ramen noodles every other day. Maybe if the better off Dems quit bashing low-income people for trying to stretch thier money as far as they can, the stereotype of us Dems as upper-middle class latte-drinkers spread by the Pukes would disappear.

[MADem]

1. Judge not, let ye...!!

It would do most of us some good to walk a mile in the moccasins of others...

[Monkeyman]

2. You guys want to get buy on my VA check

opps as replugs call it entitlement

[dusmcj]

3. true, although it's also a shame the poor don't know what keeps them poor

The Old World Ordure insisting on trying to corn their hole without benefit of consent or lubricant.

[Deja Q]

139. How many poor did you poll to fathom that out?

:D

[BlueIris]

222. WOAH. That's BRILLIANT. You should write books.

That disgusting, broad-brush judgment has just magically solved all the woe's of the world's poor. Nope, no nuances of the global poverty crisis left to fathom or plumb after that. You're beautiful. Screw books, we should king you. Let us hoist you up on our shoulders and ferry you around the town square, clammering your name, "dusmcj! dusmcj! He has enlightened us all! Praise be to duscmcj!"

[kilgore65]

234. WTF is wrong with his statement?

It's essentially true. The dying old anglo american economic order is struggling to maintain control - that's what 911 was all about!

[Sapphocrat]

236. I'll take your word, BlueIris...

...that that was a disgusting, broad-brush judgment, because, frankly, I didn't understand a word of it. LOL

[patricia92243]

4. Huh? Do you have a link? I have never seen this. I'll take your word fo

for it, but I would like to see an example.

[Cleita]

7. I don't have the link but there was that thread today about

the poor family in Florida living in substandard conditions because they were poor. The chorus chimed in with the fact that it wasn't an excuse to be dirty. Give me a break. In marginal conditions it is sometimes really hard to be clean. Go camping sometime for a week with no access to water except what you brought. You might get an inkling.

[shanti]

16. come on, cleita

i've always liked and respected your posts, but can you tell me why one would put trash in their baby's crib? that one got to me.

[Cleita]

30. A convenient carrier and I assume they took the baby out first.

The whole trash thing sort of has me wondering. You might be surprised how quickly trash accumulates if you don't have a means of disposal.

Now in my day, my depression minded grandmother saved everything to reuse. What couldn't be reused was burned in an incinerator. Much though back then was recycled. There were no milk cartons but bottles you returned. Soft drink bottles as well. Meat came home wrapped in butcher's wrap, which she washed and used for other things. The plastic wrap your Wonder Bread came in also wrapped your school lunch.

The cardboard boxes that delivered canned goods to the market also were used to pack your groceries. There was no paper or plastic. That would have been a luxury.
So wrapping could be a big problem with the trash for those poor people. I don't know about the plumbing except if the water was cut off, a lot of people don't know how to run water from a bucket down the loo. They were never taught.

I really feel so sorry for people who are caught in this. They either struggle or the smart ones turn to petty crime.

[Atman]

71. Cleita, there is a big difference between FRUGAL and fooked up!

I hear you. Really, I do. While now, at this moment in my life I might be one of those whom you consider a "well off DUer," just a few short years ago I lost everything to some really sleazy business partners. Everything. My house, car, the whole nine yards. My wife and I lived a cash-only existence for a while while we re-built our lives. It was the worst period of our lives. We saved plastic bags to reuse, we carried our own paper bags to re-use at the cheapo store. But we NEVER threw trash in our kids' beds.

I understand your sympathy, but there is something way beyond simply "poorness" here. Not knowing (caring?) how to flush a toilet without running water? Throwing trash in your kid's crib? No one blamed these people for being "poor." I don't claim to have ever been "poor," although I've been very, very broke for extended periods of time. Maybe these people just finally gave up, lost hope, and lost their dignity along the way. But I think you're off-based to call this a "poor bashing" thread. There are certain individuals being "bashed," not the entire legion of "poor" in the United States. Just the people in the story. And it sounds like we're all pretty disgusted for some pretty good reasons. Being poor doesn't automatically mean you are just "caught in something." Lots of people with little or no money know how to flush a toilet and take the trash out.

[Cleita]

76. Maybe you missed my point.

My frugal depression minded grandmother knew how to cope. She came from the farm with no amenities in the nineteenth century. She killed her own chickens. I know because I watched her do it. I also enjoyed the delicious drumsticks I ate from these kills.

These people are not my grandmother, nor even me. I know how to cope in the woods for weeks at a time. Most people don't. It's harder in urban areas where you are immediately expected to be able to shell out lots of cash for utilities and other amenities which really are necessities. There is no place to make up for it if you can't.

These people cannot be criticized because they became poor and don't know how to cope. Honestly there is much more to this story than is out there.

[Atman]

81. I agree that there is much more to the story

But you seem to be assuming what that "much more" is as much as those you're accusing. Do you know what these people's situation was before? Maybe they've always been unfortunate saps, and this latest chapter is simply the worst one yet. Maybe they were once wealthy and lost everything, including all sense of dignity. Maybe they, like you say, are simply overwhelmed and ignorant of survival skills. We don't know. But assumptions are assumptions, and we don't know that your assumptions are any more correct than anyone Else's posting here.

All that said, I am not arguing with you, despite how it might sound. I'm just playing the proverbial Devil's advocate. Your heart is in the right place, and that shows you have great character, imho. But still, you could be wrong. These people might actually just have been complete, utter slobs. This being a message board with lots of disparate characters and opinions, I don't think the majority of DUers feel the way you imply. Some just get carried away.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

244. Extreme poverty can lead to stress-induced depression, and

depression can make you incapable of taking care of yourself or helping yourself or looking after others.

It's a mental illness, not laziness.

[Dorian Gray]

90. Exactly!

And I work with pverty stricken families in NYC. I've dealt with finding housing for families who have come across difficult circumstances, and I've had many site visits. They never pile grabage and filth in their baby's crib or allow their toilets to not be flushed. I have also been to some ghetto areas in Guatamala, China, Vietnam, and New York City. I've seen people in some pretty piss poor conditions, none of whom allowed their children to live and wallow in filth.

That's not classist at all.

[ScreamingMeemie]

103. Cleita, I'm sorry but my grandmother grew up dirt poor...shanty poor...

holes in the floor poor...and her mother told her.... Water is free and soap doesn't cost much. Putting trash in your infant's bedding is a little over the top...

[Joe Fields]

113. Do you really buy into that? I certainly don't. Being poor is no

excuse for being messy or dirty.

[tbyg52]

155. I dunno....

...I haven't read the entire thread (just checking in briefly this evening--I find I have become addicted to at least looking at a few of the top posts every day, even when I can't really spare the time) so I don't know what the family's water situation is, but here in Fort Bend County (yes, DeLay land) we have fairly sizeable sections of the county that don't have decent water and have serious human waste disposal problems.

[On the Road]

152. Cleita, Living in Squalor is Surprisingly Common

in poor neighborhoods. My girlfriend and I each have a few investment houses in working-class parts of Baltimore, including some Section 8. The living conditions of some of the houses are really kind of appalling. This is not landlord negligence -- the houses are clean when the tenants move in, and a month later they have food and clothes all over the floor. One house keeps two cats in the basement with litter boxes left uncleaned for weeks, and with thousands of fleas that cover your clothing if you venture downstairs. (That last one IS a health hazard and has to be taken care of.)

Yes, they usually have the ability to keep a clean house and simply don't do it. The question is: does that make them fair game for ridicule? Unlike a lot of landlords, I don't feel it's my place to be the cleaning police. They have their own lives, and I have my own problems. I'll get someone to haul trash and clean when they move out.

I sympathize with some of these people. One tenant in particular is a sweet woman with two kids whose husband is in jail and who has a learning disorder. She is on a very limited income. She is able-bodied but apparently used to living with old clothes piled on top of potato chip bags and dirty dishes. I've read accounts from 17th-century Holland of apartments with similar conditions -- dishes stacked next to bedpans full of waste, etc. It's not a new thing and not limited to one group. I take it as part of the psychology of poverty, which can be changed, but only with effort and difficulty.

I do think some of the attitudes on DU are justly criticized as classist. But the reaction to slovenly living seems to be pretty common across the political spectrum.

[phylny]

160. In my job, I often work with children of poor people, and a woman who I

work with closely (she works part-time because she has little children to take care of, and no support from their father) is also poor. She describes herself as poor, it is not my label. We both worked in a house of a family that was poor and on public assistance. The public housing apartment, which was previously spotless and roach-free, was often utterly dirty, smelly, and roach-infested. My co-worker's comment was this:

"I'm poor. A bottle of ammonia costs 89 cents, and a bar of soap is no more than one dollar." According to my co-worker, being poor isn't an excuse for being dirty. She is poor and her apartment is clean, and so are her kids and their clothes.

I bought roach motels for the family we worked with, an area rug to cover the living room linoleum floor which was too cold for the kids in the winter, gave them a vacuum, extra vacuum bags, a broom and a mop. The place continued to be disgustingly dirty.

I know that it's more than being "poor" in a case like this - the entire family was dysfunctional and uneducated - but honestly, the smell of diapers left to sit in a corner, of food that was spilled as kids walked around eating, of garbage left in the kitchen, and the sticky, stained rug that I had bought only six months previously tells a story that is very sad.

[Cleita]

166. Dirty can cross all economic lines.

I was watching some cable channel one afternoon where two daffy English ladies clean and organize peoples houses who can't seem to do it themselves. Well, one couple lived in Laurel Canyon in Los Angeles, which is a pricey neighborhood, not a slum. The house was wall to wall with trash. They literally had to crawl over everything to get from one room to the other. These people were above average wage earners and educated.

So blaming the poor for being dirty isn't a valid argument with me. Trust me I have known some well off people who are equally as dirty and even more so, because the more affluent can afford more trash to throw on the floor.

[ebayfool]

177. I can attest to that ... I'm a housekeeper for some of the educated,

well-to-do types you speak of - money & education definitely are NOT a deciding factor of a person's cleanliness, healthy eating habits, or any of the other labels I've seen thrown on the poor on DU lately. Most of them should be aware, the 'hired help' DO talk - a few I know have a real hard time getting anyone to work for them ... word gets around pretty quickly when an employer is too vile or nasty.

You are especially on the mark w/this one:
Trust me I have known some well off people who are equally as dirty and even more so, because the more affluent can afford more trash to throw on the floor.


There's a book here, I'm just sayin'!

[Dorian Gray]

233. Exactly,

which is why I don't think it's classist to be disgusted with filth. If people are dirty, it's not a class thing. It's a personal living habit born out of laziness. I know plenty of wealthy people who make 200,000$ plus a year whose apartments in New York City are disaster areas. They have infestation problems (mice and roaches) because they never wash their dishes.

It's about laziness, not class or money.

[Gormy Cuss]

11. Well, I ve seen some but I'd like to know what brought on this post.

There was a food thread today about the cost of "healthy" food, but when I last visited it there wasn't much in the vein of bashing low income food choices. There were a couple posts that I'd categorize as well meaning but not well informed.

[Blackthorn]

18. Every fund drive...

...some self righteous jerkoff feels the need to berate everyone who didn't donate. "Hey, if you can afford to breathe, you can afford to donate" kinda bullshit.

[LA lady]

28. Don't know if this is one

But there are always slams about Walmart shoppers on DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1977605

I live out in the middle of nowhere, the only stores are a very overpriced local grocer, Freds and Dollar General within 30 miles. There is a Walmart there and the prices are way below the dollar type stores and they have a much larger selection.
I would have to drive 60 miles to anything else and I am disabled and a single parent. It hurts when I get slammed because of lack of choices.

[Cleita]

35. Good point. Thanks for posting.

eom

[bvar22]

66. Here's another one.

The OP was OK.
Some of the responses were frighteningly bigoted starting with #1.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1968806

[loyalsister]

94. I hear that in my community, as well

Another major problem for people with disabilities is, the local stores are in older buildings and aren't very accessible.

It's a little absurd to argue that "progressive shopping" includes a condition where particular population has to ask to have the door opened, or they have to use a back entrance or, maybe they can't get in at all.

This is a frequent small town or "downtown" experience.

From what I have learned from my friends who have mobility impairments, there seems to be a natural tendency to go where they know the door opens for them just as readily as it does for anyone else.

[tbyg52]

156. I certainly can't blame you

for shopping at Wal Mart when there is nothing else in a reasonable distance. I will try to keep your post in mind next time I rant about Wal Mart (which I do--I am grateful that I have the choice not to shop there--but I will remember those who don't have the choice).

[Quantess]

172. I was at the evil Wal Mart today.

I was looking to score some plants on end-of-season markdown. I looked around the store, exploring, and I wasn't terribly impressed by their prices. I don't think Wal Mart's prices are all that low, compared to other store's sale prices. Okay, I did think the bottled water was a bargain, and I did find some plants for really cheap. All the stores are selling plants really cheap this time of year, though.

It's a lot of hype, I say.

[kilgore65]

254. It is...

I watch prices pretty carefully. I used to go to Wal-Mart a lot because certain items I bought were so much cheaper than Kroger. Not anymore. I only rarely venture into Wal Mart these days.

[diamidue]

268. Everyone saying WalMart is all they have near them.

What did you guys do for food before WalMart was built?

[havocmom]

195. I have to drive nearly 100 miles to even get to a Walmart.

For more choices for my few dollars, it is HOURS of travel.

Walmart planned their expansion well. They started in places not well served by other retail establishments, even mom and pop types. In smaller populations, smaller stores have limited space and money for inventory. Do we want to lose the heartland because we are not mindful of logistic problems for some populations, and pick on shoppers who have little choice?

I hear ya, LA lady. And I think some sort of 'exchange student' program between rural and urban populations might just help city dwellers understand and appreciate our country cousins and their limited choices better. ;)

[Jamastiene]

263. It sounds like you and I share that common

situation. For some things, we just have to go to Wal-Mart. I don't think some people have every lived in a rural community. It's no mertropolis and there are few choices. Not everyone is privileged enough to be able to make decisions on where to shop for groceries. Some of us have to make do with what we have available to us.

[Cleita]

5. It's easy to beat up on those who are least able to

defend themselves. I agree with you. Until you know what it's like to be living like these people, don't be so quick to judge. I don't apologize for getting my gas and shopping for my food at the cheapest place I can find it. I would prefer to do otherwise but I can't.

[AZBlue]

53. Exactly!

And I don't know about you or others here, but I for one have to do this more and more in the last 6 years. Thanks, George!

[Akbar]

6. Examples?

?

[Odin2005]

20. Countless threads dealing with Wal-mart or processed food.

[otohara]

143. Processed Food & Walmart

is a matter of principal and healthy eating. I am on disability and don't do either. When it comes to food - trying to eat healthy, even if poor pays off in the end. I have enough problems, I don't want to get other health problems related to cheap crappy food. Cheap food is okay once in a while, but I would try to persuade anyone to not eat that shit, what ever your economic situation is.

I shop at Ross, TJ Maxx & Big Lots. Walmart is a no, no! sorry!

[driver8]

8. Uhm...even when I didn't make much money I didn't shop at

Wal-Mart. Fuck that place.

You can shop where you want -- it's a free country. No one should scold anyone for doing what they need to do to get by.

I'm sorry if this has happened to you. Please don't take it personally. It is so easy to criticize people before knowing their story.

[bananas]

92. No, you can't always "shop where you want"

and if you believe that is the case, you are seriously deluded.

[driver8]

95. give me a break...

If someone wants to shop someplace, it's their own business -- not mine. Some people don't have a choice. For a lot of people, unfortunately, Wal-Mart is all they have.

I choose where I spend my money and I'm sure that you do, too. I don't need someone on a message board to criticize me.

You're right...I'm seriously deluded.

Nice attitude.

[Ravenseye]

9. I'd love to only buy from the local co-op, and Whole Foods for the rest

We just can't afford it. Too expensive. We live on a budget so that we can pay off all our debts, instead of going into more debt. Buying crap at a Wal Mart helps save us money we don't otherwise have. I totally agree with you. I hear what people are saying when they say 'buy blue' and I agree with them in principal, but the occasional people who rip on it without thinking that maybe people don't have a choice.

Pardon the fuck out of us for being fiscally responsible. We're not going to go into debt for their principals.

[kilgore65]

148. Yeah, Whole Foods is a ....

fucking RIPOFF... what a scam! Even though I love healthy food, I refuse on principal to shop at A-Hole Foods. They are incredibly expensive, and they hire staff that apparantly are just picked up off the street and are covered with piercings and tatoos that have the worst attitude in the world! Fuck them!

[GoneOffShore]

167. And they're hypocrites

No live lobsters, but they'll sell you factory raised chickens.

Here in Philly the staff is great.

But you have to pick and choose what you're buying. It's very seldom that one can find local produce or meat at Whole Foods.

We have the luxury of being able to buy from a CSA coop, and local farmers markets, with meats, milk and produce coming in from Lancaster county. Not everything we buy is local (we have a fondness for imported cheese) but we would if we could. In addition, we do have a vegetable garden (in the city), so we're not entirely dependent on buying veg from the big chains.

[kilgore65]

187. Yep, Whole Foods is a pagadigm...

of globalized food sourcing that will be one of the first casualties of peak oil, which is already here and rapidly mestasizing. It simply won't be affordable to import blueberries from Chile during the US winter....

[Moochy]

190. Not to be pedantic, but what the hell "metastasizing"

Also, Mr Benchley called and he's expecting a royalty check for your use of the ellipses. :D

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

:spray:

[Moochy]

203. and wtf is a pagadigm

:wtf: is that anything like a pachyderm?

:shrug:

Spellcheck is your friend, crackpipes are not.

[Touchdown]

223. It's corporate speak, for a shift in the market.

"Our new cheese grater is such a paradigm shift in kitchen utensils that will revolutionize the convergence of food preparation and convenience to the consumer."

Sort of like (look for the elipsis)...
Human Resources replacing Personnel, or we people are nothing more than raw materials to be consumed and disposed of.
Associate replacing Employee- rather than being a part of something bigger, or having a stake in the success of a business, and feel like your part of the company's family, you are now merely an acquaintance, one we do business with, at arm's length, as to not get so close that the company would feel any pain for laying you off.

I have no idea what "Professional" as a adjective means, and believe me I've asked numerous times.

I hate corporate speak. It's the new PC.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

178. What does piercings and tattoos have to do with customer service?

[NMMNG]

179. Not a darn thing n/t

[kilgore65]

186. Tattoos and piercings are unclean....

People with both are more likely to have hepititis and other communicable diseases. I don't feel that comfortable with people that have them handling the food that I eat... be sensible, folks...

[Moochy]

189. Give me a break

Theys gots tatoos and piercings! They are 15% more likely to have hepatitis!! FIRE THEM from my super market!!

:eyes:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

194. Um...no, actually they're not "unclean."

You're the one that's not being sensible. I think I'll trust the CDC over your "sensibility."

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hepatitis/c/tattoo.htm
CDC's Position on Tattooing and HCV Infection

Although some studies have found an association between tattooing and HCV infection in very selected populations, it is not known if these results can be generalized to the whole population. Any percutaneous exposure has the potential for transferring infectious blood and potentially transmitting bloodborne pathogens (e.g., HBV, HCV, or HIV); however, no data exist in the United States indicating that persons with exposures to tattooing alone are at increased risk for HCV infection. For example, during the past 20 years, less than 1% of persons with newly acquired hepatitis C reported to CDC's sentinel surveillance system gave a history of being tattooed. Further studies are needed to determine if these types of exposures, and the settings in which they occur, are risk factors for HCV infection in the United States. CDC is currently conducting a large study to evaluate tattooing as a potential risk.

Sorry to burst your prejudiced bubble.

[TommyO]

197. I know plenty of pierced and inked people

and none of them have hep or other communicable diseases. Unfortunately you're just showing that even Democrats can, and do, have irrational prejudices.

[Bretttido]

259. Could just be a freeper...

[Name removed]

199. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Quantess]

206. kilgore565, I'm going to let you in on a secret:

The whole time I was a school teacher, teaching elementary school kids, (and high school students one year), I had several tattoos on each arm!

Nobody knew I had tattoos, because I wore sleeves to cover them!

A tattooed person like me can get a teaching license in two different states! Know why? Because it's irrelevant to the job duties.

[pinto]

212. No they are not. You choose where you want to eat, but it's

a broad brush slam to say tats and piercings are unclean.

Unclean is a kitchen worker who doesn't follow basic food handling guidelines (the law) -whether they have a tat, a piercing or two heads. It's a common misconception that appearance has anything to do with risk. Y'know?

It's sensible to be clear about how communicable diseases are transmitted. It's about washing your hands after using the bathroom, and all restaurant workers are required to follow that guideline. When it doesn't happen and Hepatitis A is transmitted from an employee, that's the cause. The CDC doesn't track Hep A infections based on tattoos or any other behavioral characteristic outside of who did what, where, and when in the process of serving your food. Seriously.

And as an aside, you may be talking about Hepatitis B, which *is* blood borne and associated with getting tattoos in unregulated settings - the street, prison, etc - where infected tools are reused. But to be blunt, you're chances of getting Hepatitis B from a restaurant worker are really slim. Seriously.

I feel strongly about this, obviously, and feel accurate information is important.

[LostinVA]

243. You totally and completely have no idea what you're talking about

I suspect you can get AIDS from kissing, too.

Oi.

[readmoreoften]

250. Sig Fucking Heil.

People with tattoos are not more likely to have communicable diseases. Almost all women have pierced ears. What an ignorant and irrational post.

[Bretttido]

258. Hmmm, I have a tattoo and one piercing

Both were done in sterilized environments by professionals. But I guess I am more likely to have hepatitis and other diseases than the average "clean American". But the most dreadful aspect of what I've just learned, is that I might contaminate my customers when I place their cereal in a plastic bag for them!!! :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Dervill Crow]

262. Where in the world did you hear that? eom

[LostinVA]

242. Not a darn thing, unless you're judgemental

[Quantess]

180. I'll bet money that.....

you see their piercings and tattoos and assume they have a bad attitude.

Do you have any idea how many people out there with tattoos and piercings that usually stay covered? No, I'd bet you don't. You just assume they're all nice people with good attitudes, don't you? How would you react if you found out that a neighbor you had known for years has always had several tattoos that you had never known about?

The difference with Whole Foods is that their company policy allows visible tattoos and piercings. Instant bad attitude, yeah right.

[Quantess]

185. It always gets me.....(kind of off topic)

Some people seem to wonder..."why is it, that tattooed people are always wearing tank tops and skimpy clothes?" :silly: "Gee, ya know, the hot weather seems to make people get tattoos, because I sure see a lot of tattooed people in the summertime."
:crazy:

I have the answer to those baffling questions!
You can't see tattoos when they are covered with clothing!
You are more likely to see tattoos in hot weather, because people wear skimpier clothes!
Many people around you have tattoos that you will never see, because clothing covers them!

What a concept.

[Moochy]

192. How comes I only see navel rings in summer?

Hey Mr Science, Peeps wanna know! :shrug:

[Quantess]

215. Now, Moochy, you're teasing.

You already know the answer, smartie-pants.

Some people really seem to have a hard time wrapping their minds around the concept that tattoos and piercings are commonly hidden under clothing. ;)

Some of them don't realize that navel rings are worn all year long, but are usually covered up with clothing. So, unless you see that person going around with a bare midriff, you'd probably never realize they had a piercing. :think:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

196. See his post above. Apparently body mods=hepatitis carrier.

Clearly an educated opinion. :eyes:

[fortyfeetunder]

207. A fad supermarket

I think WF is a fad once people figure out -- I can get what I need cheaper elsewhere....

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

217. In terms of all-natural and organic food, a regular supermarket can't

compare in selection and often price. Trader Joes is much cheaper, but their selection isn't as big.

[radwriter0555]

231. Sure you can get 'cheaper'. Go ahead. Buy veggies covered in pesticides

and milk filled with growth hormones. Buy bologna sprayed with viruses and frozen pizza made with artificial cheese and chicken lips and pig assholes.

I like my food to be non-cancer causing and disease infested.

I prefer cheese made from real milk, and meat not injected with growth hormones. I like carrots and lettuce and tomatoes that haven't been kept in a cold locker for 6 months. I like real grains, real cereals and fresh, seasonal fruits.

I like pasta sauce that isn't all filler and fake sugar.

I don't like cottonseed oil and polyunsaturated fats. I like fresh baked bread and coffee that is freshly ground.

It's easier to buy carrots than it is to buy top ramen. They're better for you, have lots of fiber and taste DELICIOUS!

[LostinVA]

245. Whole Foods is only expensive if you want it to be

I get stuff there way cheaper than the local Giant or Harris Teeter.

You just have to not get "gourmet" stuff. THAT'S where they get you.

[fishwax]

219. all the staff I've interacted with at whole foods have been fantastic

haven't had a bad experience that i cna recall--tatooed, pierced, or otherwise.

[Nikki Stone 1]

10. Good post.

If Wal-Mart is all you got, then you gotta go with it.

[Cleita]

42. Another thought.

Sometimes it's a choice of either buying what you can afford or eating out of the garbage.

[badgerpup]

165. Even Wal-mart carries stuff that isn't processed all to hell...

When there's more than $1 difference between one store and another on something I use consistently, I'm gonna go with my bank balance here. Fixed, limited income sort of thing, you understand.
But it IS possible to buy food that's fairly healthy, even if it doesn't necessarily have a bunch of labels saying ORGANIC!! on it.
Know your brands of meat. Wash your fruits and veg...and remember that the more 'convenient' a food is, the more processing it's undergone, and probably is not as good for ya.

If you can buy 'ingredients' rather than 'food' your bucks will go a lot further and you'll have more variety and nutritive value as well.

It just won't be as convenient.

[kilgore65]

241. Wal-Mart sells the only reasonably priced almonds I've been able to find..

$6.14 for a 16 oz jar, hard to beat that...

[tinfoil tiaras]

12. I agree

There are little to no progressive places in Mississippi to shop (sorry, but Rainbow is too expensive...i already spend like at least a thousand $$s a year for school and I don't need to spend anymore on some organic milk i can get a Kroger for half the price). I hate it when people act all holier-than-thou and somehow think they're better. Wal Mart has taken over South Miss., making it the only place my family down there can shop at. And they're good democrats. So there.

Classism in all of it's forms is uber pathedic and makes you look horrible, imho. You're not better than anyone who shops at Wal Mart. Please, get over yourselves.

*this wasn't to you personally, just to everyone in general, kay? I didn't want you to get the idea that I was bashing you... :D

[kilgore65]

150. Yeah, Rainbow...

is a fucking joke, just like Whole Foods in Baton Rouge and New Orleans... I HATE that holier are thou vibe that you get in those places. If you need health food quality vitamins at excellent prices, order from betterlife.com. Healthway in Ridgeland is a good local store for emergencies and perishables, but it, like most such stores, is high...

[tinfoil tiaras]

205. Yeah, I totally understand where you're coming from

I mean if your vegetarian-awesome. I was vegetarian for 2 months. But just because you don't eat meat or whatever doesn't make it morally right for you to be all like "OMG COW KILLERR!! I HATE YOU" and all.

I'll be sure to check out Healthway...I live pretty close to Ridgeland. My school is in Ridgeland...

[Jamastiene]

264. It is like that in many places.

I think some people do not understand the circumstances for some of us who hate Wal-Mart but in some instances have no choice. At one time my town had Roses, K-Mart, and many other options. Now, we only have Wal-Mart. They just built this new Wal-Mart here and part of the agreement was that Winn-Dixie was to close, else Wal-Mart would NOT open the new store. They did it anyhow. Winn-Dixie closed, sure as the world.

[DURHAM D]

13. Can you give us a link - I have been on or nearby all day

and missed the dis.

[Just Me]

14. What DUer has done that? I am grateful to receive vegies,...

,...garden-grown by neighbors (FUCK their party affiliation) to freeze for this winter since I am unemployed and have to survive winter (not for the first time in my life).

Name those DUers' POSITIONS.

[foreigncorrespondent]

110. It is actually...

...against DU rules to call out other DUers, as you know. But recently there was a thread with over 100 posts from a prominent DUer berating others for not having the money to support DU during this fund drive. It really was quite sad to see. And does show that class-ism is alive and kicking at DU.

[rubberducky]

15. I`ve always thought we were a pretty diverse bunch.

I really don`t think anyone would begrudge you doing what you have to do. I am most assuradly not "well -off", but I shop costco because they are cheaper than most other places. Ramen Noodles $4.88 for 48. Just bought them last week-end!

[ScreamingMeemie]

102. You can get them for half that price at Big Lots or Aldi's if you

want to save even more. :hi:

[mike_c]

17. walmart destroys your towns economy and helps to KEEP your wages...

...low. Shopping at Walmart does nothing to build good will with merchants in your own community. Patronizing Walmart is shooting yourself in the foot- it's rewarding the pigs who keep their employees IN YOUR COMMUNITY on the verge of destitution. Shopping at Walmart is an affirmation that you can live with the destruction of working peoples' rights.

Condemning Walmart and the people who shop there isn't about classism-- it's about workers' rights and human dignity. A child goes to bed hungry somewhere in the world everytime you spend a dollar at Walmart. Someones grandmother goes without heat in the winter time or takes her meds every third day to make them last for every dollar spent at Walmart.

If you want to be exploited-- and if you think that selling you cheap stuff so that you'll betray your own community isn't exploiting you-- then more power to you. Just don't lie to yourself about who's attacking your "class."

on edit-- Walmart tried to sow that sort of divisiveness in my community, and we rejected them with a public referendum. As a consequence the closest Walmart is three hours drive away. We like it that way.

[kiahzero]

21. What about their own child that goes hungry if they don't?

What about if you're the grandmother who goes without heat so you can eat?

[mike_c]

23. supporting the folks who help cause that is NOT the solution....

eom

[Odin2005]

32. You still haven't answered hoew that child will eat.

[mike_c]

38. it's a straw man, and a damned poor one at that....

You show me some real data that suggests a significant number of folks who shop at Walmart have starving children and I promise you, I will try to find solutions. I'm sure there are a few-- it's a big country. But like I said, my community-- an economically depressed rural community with high unemployment and underemployment, a community in which only 12-14 percent of county residents can afford a median priced home in their own community-- my community rejected a Walmart in a public referendum a few years ago and NOT ONE SINGLE CHILD has starved or suffered otherwise as a result, as far as I can tell.

[The Straight Story]

62. Allow me to give you a personal example

I used to live in Circleville, Ohio. I shopped a few doors down (I lived in the downtown area of that small town) for 'quick' items I needed and was out of. I knew the owner of the store, a helluva good guy. I gave him my business every chance I got. I would have done all my shopping there but the cost was 3-4 times what I would pay at Krogers or Wal-Mart.

Wal-mart sucks so bad I can't even begin to count the ways. There was one time it was pouring down rain and I stopped at his store to get a few things on the way home from work. Wife was out of town and I was not up to cooking much so I bought some sandwhiches he had (damn good too!) and a few things for cooking chicken I had later. I got home, was putting things away and such and there was a knock on my door. I lived above a store. Who was it? The store owner. Walked over to my place in the rain because he forgot to put my 50 cent newspaper in the bag. Now THAT is service.

But I cannot justify spending 3-4 times the money for groceries when I have a family to feed.

Fast Forward to today, I live in Columbus (ohio) now. A small grocery my mom used to shop at called sedalia food mart (we still call it lehman's though). When I don't feel like going to kroger, aldi, walmart, et al, I run there for things. WAY overpriced. I still try to give them business though - but their produce sucks, their prices are insanely high, and the store is pretty crappy on selection. For $60 at wal mart I can get a lot of food, for the same price there I get very little.

Money I SAVE at wal-mart is spent on little stores like this and at other small merchants (like the craft store I love). I absolutely HATE shopping at walmart (and meijer), but then I generally hate shopping - unless it is at a small mom and pop place, I love going to places like that.

Walmart offers me a service which saves me money, money which I can spend on other things I enjoy more than need. Some might argue it is like national food care for the poor - ie, cheap food for all. Spend less on things you have to have, like food, have more to pay electric and gas bills or to go to movies, etc.

Is it the reason the small mom and pops were hurt in circleville? I would argue no. Having lived there and known many business owners, most offered things you can't get at wal-mart - but they also could not sustain a business in many cases. One goes out, another goes in (the small store I used to shop at there is for sale - wal mart the reason? Nope. The owner worked at wright pat and his wife ran the stores the days he was off there teaching. Due to her health they sold the place and moved because he did not have the time to run it himself and she was too ill).

Walmart is a tool, and if used well it can help us to support local businesses by freeing up money to spend locally. There are still many small stores here which carry grocery items (save mart, aldi, lehmans, and quite a few specialty groceries).

[mike_c]

69. I wonder whether the folks who own those local businesses...

...would agree with your premise that Walmart is essentially doing them a favor? Perhaps you should ask them what THEY think about the benefits Walmart bestows on your community.

On edit-- thanks for the example-- it's a good story, and one that we all need to think about.

[The Straight Story]

79. I have talked to them about it

Especially before the super walmart came to town (was an old walmart before).

Some tried to stop it for a variety of reasons, and several of said reasons I could agree with. I don't have an issue with the grocery part of wal mart, or even basic supplies, it's the other things that they and I had issues with.

Our downtown there had several specialty shops that catered to a variety of needs. Kids clothes, shoes, bakery, trophies, etc and so on (and the good old hippie hut, which took the place of simply dancing dance studio which moved to a bigger place - but there is a whole bizzare story about that place and the people in it, even involves me and wives in other states...go figure!).

The biggest fear, and one I shared, is that those little places would lose business to the big guys. Sure, I can get shoes at wal mart, but they suck compared to what I could get in downtown circleville (or in chicago for that matter, great shoe store next to the palmer hilton there - and they ain't afraid of no walmart!). The fear mainly though was that people would see a similar product for less and become cheap. But them $20 shoes that won't last and aren't as comfortable. Then buy another pair later when they wear out. Eventually you might realize you saved money with the local guy where it cost you more in initial layout.

But then circleville was having financial issues. What with thompson laying off people who made picture tubes, etc. If all you had that payday was $20 for shoes and the kids were starting school, wal mart was the place. That or not many other choices.

People get used to saving more and more money on essential goods, and then start doing the same on non-essentials - and that to me is where the problem lies. We need to use walmart, and take what we save and re-invest it into the local people who can better fill our needs. Will people do so? I doubt it - but they should imho. Them folks at the scrapbook store offered me a lot more then walmart ever could in choices.

One more story: Mt Vernon, Ohio. Goodwin Electric. X wife's godfather owned it. Passed on. His daughter, my mortal enemy, took over the store. They sold light bulbs, lamps, custom painted shades, doodads for lamps, repaired them, and so on. She sold the store a few years back and now works at walmart. She could not compete on the little things (bulbs and such) and people decided they did not need $75 lamps. They left service over price, and they always will I fear. Sometimes out of necessity, sometimes out of wanting to get a cheaper knock off to do the same thing. Part of the fault lies with her though. She did no advertising, no specials, just sat and waited for people to come in and then was at times rather rude to them (like she always was with me). There are several specialty lighting companies here in Columbus though, thriving.

The businesses on the square that offered good service with a decent price are still there though. I was just up there two weekends ago for the dan emmet festival (dixie...the song, that dan emmet). They ain't boarded up by a long shot.

[conflictgirl]

170. Just FYI - Meijer is union, at least here in Michigan.

All unions aren't the same so I don't know if their union is good, but I choose to shop at Meijer over Walmart just because Meijer is union and Wal-mart is not. :) I hate Walmart on principle but I have actually shopped there and did a comparison with the prices at Meijer for the things I usually buy. I found that Meijer's prices are actually pretty competitive with Walmart. Unfortunately that's the Walmart effect and even though I still have this knee-jerk negative reaction to them, other businesses are going to their model in many aspects and so I'm not so sure that any one is that much better than another.

BTW - Aldi is owned by the same company that owns Trader Joe's, and they pay their cashiers quite well (comparatively speaking). I haven't shopped at Aldi yet but I love Trader Joe's, so maybe I should go check out Aldi and see if they're similarly good.

[kiahzero]

41. Starving is a better solution? (n/t)

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kiahzero]

51. I honestly believe that some poeple need to buy food as cheap as possible

Do you disagree?

[mike_c]

54. umm-- you mentioned "starving" as an alternative to not shopping...

...at Walmart. Call me naive, but I just don't see that happening very often. What I DO see is local economies being undermined by Walmart, depressing wages for ALL working people. What I also see is WHOLE INDUSTRIES pissing on their workers because of the screws that Walmart tightens on them. Every cheap deal you get at Wally World is borne on the backs of your brothers' and sisters' suffering. And we're NOT talking about being able to eat, as much as folks want to throw that rhetoric around. We're talking about buying cheap consumer goods. I'll tell you what-- if ANYONE is in the position of having to patronize Walmart because it's the only place they can afford food to eat, I fully support their shopping there. But I don't believe that's what we're really talking about, and as I said, I live in precisely the sort of community where they would be found. No, we're talking about shafting your own community's economy, working people in your own neighborhood and around the world, in order to save a few bucks on the cheap crap that makes Americans some of the most consumption driven people in the world. The least we could do is support our communities and the people who labor in the sweatshops- and their children who labor alongside them because they really are on the sharp edge of going hungry otherwise-- when we buy our consumer goods.

[OzarkDem]

55. Those who can, will

Those who can't afford otherwise should have their rights respected. Leave them alone.

[kiahzero]

59. Congratulations

'll tell you what-- if ANYONE is in the position of having to patronize Walmart because it's the only place they can afford food to eat, I fully support their shopping there.

Maybe you should read the thread then, because that's exactly what we're talking about.

[bvar22]

77. A very rare occassion. I'm on the opposite side of this issue.

I almost always stand on the same side as mike_c, but not on this.

I NEVER shop at Wal-Mart. I am fortunate enough that I don't HAVE to.
I am grateful for my good fortune. I have no dependents, and an income that allows me to escape from Wally-World.
I am 100% Pro-Union, Pro-Labor, Pro-Middle Class. I vote GREEN in Local elections, and when it is safe to do so in larger elections. I am an FDR Democrat! I live in Paul Wellstone's state and still have my "WELLSTONE campaign T-Shirts. I cast my vote for Dennis Kucinich in our 2004 State Caucus.
I HATE the DLC, and have nothing but CONTEMPT for Democrats who pander to the RICH Corporate Owners.
I PRAISE and SUPPORT the Social Reforms in Venezuela, and pray they spread North.

THAT being said, I will NOT judge or condemn ANYONE who says they need to shop at WallyWorld to make ends meet! I WOULD shop at WallyWorld to avoid going into debt, or jeopardizing the health or nutrition of myself or my children (if I had any).

You're off base on this one.

Bob
StPaul


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[mike_c]

88. I do appreciate that perspective...

...but will have to respectfully disagree. Walmart creates and perpetuates the conditions that liberals decry. It works to destroy the dignity of working people while offering them the facade of cheap goods. Walmart is to the American economy what the Manhattan purchase was to the Delawares-- the triumph of a parasite. The folks who shop at Walmart gain nothing in the long run because Walmart undermines their community economies-- the people who work for Walmart and the ones who produce the goods that Walmart sells, fare even worse. Sure, Walmart offers low prices, but it's a deal with the devil-- Walmart depresses wages, shorts tax revenues, exploits workers, and poisons economies wherever it goes. It's like offering cheap but contaminated water to the thirsty-- anyone who opposes giving thirsty people water is vilified, but the water is contaminated nonetheless.

[conflictgirl]

173. You are right - BUT

If you look at other stores, many of them are going to the same model. In an area that has a Walmart, Kroger, Safeway, Meijer, or some combination of major corporate grocery stores, I honestly don't believe any one company has significantly better business practices than another.

I avoid Walmart on principle, though I do go there about twice a year to get coconut oil that I use for soapmaking. I make the soap for my family to use. We are not making a lot of money. I can get the coconut oil at Walmart for $3, or I can order it online for $12 plus $6 shipping. So yes, there IS a significant cost difference.

I had an absolute hard-line stance against Walmart and for many years I never stepped foot in one. I think the last time I went to one was February to get the coconut oil. I still don't shop there for my regular purchases and I don't support the company at all. I don't disagree with anything you said about what Walmart does to a community. But I would still argue that poor people don't have the choices you believe they do.

One of the characteristics of being poor is that you often can't make better choices in the short term, even when you know what the long-term "big picture" impact of your choice will be. Yes, the poor person who feels they have no alternative to shopping at Walmart is destroying the future of their wages and their community. But, poor people have to make similar choices on a regular basis. How many uninsured low-income people have to ignore that nagging pain that's an early sign of cancer or heart disease? How many people have to drive cars that will break down every two weeks? Those cars are horrible short-term choices and having been in that position, I can say that people know when they're making that choice that it's a poor short-term solution. But if you need transportation and you don't have good credit or a large amount of cash, you can't buy a reliable 5-year old Honda for $8000. You can buy a 12-year-old Ford Escort for $500 cash when you get a tax refund that you know will break down a couple weeks later. You just hope against hope that when the problems finally catch up with you later, they won't be that major. Sometimes you're wrong.

Do I really think I'm doing anything to stop Walmart by not shopping there? Not really, because there aren't alternatives in my area that really do business any differently than Walmart. I shop at Meijer because it's at least union, but other than that they're virtually indistinguishable from Walmart. Many communities don't even HAVE stores that are significantly different from Walmart anymore. And what alternatives there are, are often very expensive in many areas. The only independent store in my area is the health food store (and I happen to know that the owners donate to neocons). I tried doing all my shopping there once - except for fresh produce which they don't have - it cost me $100 more per week. If I shop at a place that costs almost $5000 more per year, damn right I'm going to feel that on my low-income budget. The more expensive place is a business I don't want to support anyway, so how would shopping be there represent taking the higher ground?

[renate]

239. your post reminds me so much of "Nickel and Dimed"

That book really opened my eyes. I never knew why people lived in those nasty yet expensive pay-by-the-week motel room with a hot plate when for the same money they could at least have an apartment with a kitchen--then I read that the motels don't require a deposit and the apartments, of course, do. If you don't have a lump sum to put down on an apartment, you have to live in a nasty motel and pay a lot more for food because you don't have a kitchen.

What you said about having to buy a car that'll end up costing a ton in repairs, and ignoring symptoms that'll cost a ton in medical bills, is also oh so true.

I never knew, until I read that book, how expensive it is to be poor.

So, I feel very lucky that I don't have to shop at Wal-Mart, but someone working at a minimum-wage job can't be expected to go to the local Albertson's and pay the equivalent of one or two hours' wages more than they would spend at Wal-Mart, just because it's the right thing to do.

[Touchdown]

225. Speak it Brother!

I've tried an tried to convey that same big picture of Wal-Mart's whole circle of life thing that not only makes sure the working poor remain poor, but it ENSURES that more of us become poor as a result. I just hop ethey don't go into Long distance switching technology. In my highly paid (actually what should be just plain decent wages that any technical skill should command, that everyone should have something around, based on their levels of skill) union shop, we still have people who come in to work with those blue smiley face bags, and it burns me up. We rented out a theater to show a DVD of Greenwald's W-M film and posted the Hell out of it all over work. In a city the size of Denver, it was half full.

Your arguments are much more coherant than mine, since hardly any of my brothers and sisters listen to me. :yourock:

In solidarity
'Touchdown'-CWA Local 7750

[U4ikLefty]

84. I do stand with you mike c.

Since you are getting no praise for your stand...I wish to applaud you.

[foreigncorrespondent]

117. Then perhaps...

...you need to pay attention more when you are out and about?

When I was in the U.S. Sapph and I did a cross country trip, I cannot tell you how much poverty I saw in places. It was very sad to see.

As for me? I have lived below the poverty line most of my life. Now I will share things with DU that only Sapph knows.

Growing up, we were dead poor. My mum and dad divorced when I was a baby. My dad never gave a shit about us and got on with his life. He never sent money to help out. No matter how much mum took him to court to get the maintenance back payments he owed her.

Mum had managed to get us a little two bedroom flat in a very rundown part of Melbourne (an area which was full of struggling families or drug addicts and criminals.) During this time I can remember going hungry every second week for about five days, until mum got her next pension check. She had a cash in hand job, but that money would go to paying the rent so we wouldn't get booted out of the little flat we had. I remember one Christmas there was gifts, and no food. It was that bad I ended up very sick as a result.

I can remember having no electricity because the money wasn't there to pay the bill. My sister and I would have to do our homework by candle light. I can remember not having heating because the gas company had cut the gas too.

People in this position in the U.S. are lucky they have places like Walmart to fall back on. It might be a right wing company, but at least people can eat by using it. Here in Australia all we have is a supermarket chain called Coles, and then Safeway (Aldi in only a fairly new company here.) So mum didn't have somewhere cheap to buy our food. Back then, the majority of what we ate was actually from the local fish and chip shop simply because $5.00 would feed the three of us compared to what it would take in a week to shop at the supermarkets.

I share a place with my mum now because neither of us could afford to keep a place alone. Recently I lost my job, and during the month I was unemployed, I ended up in debt over $7k because mum also had her work cut back to only two days a week. We had to eat, and not having much choice (neither of us can buy products from Aldi anymore, because we have both gotten sick from products they sold) on where we actually shopped, we ended up maxing out my two credit cards. And we really don't buy luxury meals. Mostly we eat very cheap meats, or frozen dinners, or food from a can because it is cheap.

So trust me, if you believe people have a choice where they shop, then I am sorry to tell you, but you have absolutely no idea of what hard living is all about.

[renate]

240. thank you for telling your story

It's an honor that you told us these things that you haven't shared with others before.

But how come you haven't told anybody else--the friends whom you see face to face? I'm sure you're proud of your mother for managing to raise you and your sister in these circumstances. And the inconveniences that so many people see as actual problems must seem just laughable to you--why not share your experiences to give others some perspective? If it's because you don't want to be seen as complaining, I don't think anybody would think that. You have a viewpoint that is really valuable and I think most intelligent people would respect the knowledge you bring to discussions of poverty.

Well, whatever your reasons are for not telling others (obviously you haven't arrived at that decision lightly, and really it's none of my business), thank you very much for telling us. :hug:

[foreigncorrespondent]

267. Thanks for your kind words, renate!

In truth I think my not sharing my story with others is simply a mix of not wanting to appear to complain about how hard growing up was for me and embarrassment at the same time.

[OzarkDem]

50. Beyond a point its none of your business where people shop

Its fine to make your case, present the reasons for people to find other alternatives, but after that, its really inappropriate to pry into other people's business and criticize them for their shopping or eating habits.

My pet peeve is people who claim to be liberals, yet don't donate to charity when they can. Liberals are good in many ways, but some of them can have a tendency to be hypercritical and cheap.

[mike_c]

56. well then, beyond a point it's none of our business...

...how people vote, or how much fuel they choose to consume while toodling around town in Hummers, or whether they want to keep working people ground under the heels of corporate exploitation in order to maintain access to cheap consumer goods. Fighting those injustices is what being a liberal is all about, IMO. It really is all of our business when people make choices that harm our communities.

[OzarkDem]

58. Fighting injustices is one thing

imposing in someone's personal life and attacking them is inappropriate and not fighting injustice. One person isn't going to make a difference in the habits of Walmart, suggest you try other means than picking on poor people.

[mike_c]

64. picking on poor people?!

Do you honestly believe that Walmart is any poor persons' friend? You think that trying to get people to support their own economic communities, and asking them to support the working people who build the stuff that Americans buy, is "picking on poor people?" I'll tell you this-- buying at Walmart is stabbing poor people in the back and then pissing in the wound.

[JI7]

93. it's not about whose friend Walmart is

it's about people living their fucking lives and just trying to get by .

[ProfessorGAC]

106. Now, THAT Is Something I'd Like To See A Link For

I'm not usually one of those that insists on links to support an opinion, but your title is most intriguing.

Have you seen any study, by anyone, anywhere, that can show some valid evidence of a local economy being destroyed by Wal-Mart? I find it hard to envision how that would happen, and i'm pretty schooled in the field of economics.
The Professor

[mike_c]

149. here are some links....

I suspect none of this will actually come as a surprise to you. One can always argue against the main point by resorting to literalism-- driving local business to ruin and depressing working conditions is not "destroying local economies" in a literal sense, but it is certainly affecting them far more negatively than positively. Anyway, rather than play rhetorical games, I'll simply provide some links documenting Walmart's negative effects on economies and workers rights. These were all picked up by a first pass Google search, BTW.

http://walmartwatch.com/home/pages/issues

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_40/b3852001_mz001.htm

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/

http://goodjobsfirst.org/pdf/wmtstudy.pdf

http://www.seta.iastate.edu/retail/publications/10_yr_study.pdf

This is only a small selection of the dozens of articles, books, broadcasts, and web pages, both popular and scholarly, documenting the negative effects of Walmart on local economies and workers. My argument throughout this thread is one that appears regularly in these source materials-- that Walmart works to create the conditions that impoverish American workers, and that shopping at Walmart rewards the very commercial behavior that maintains poverty. I've been accused of "picking on poor people" in this thread. In fact, Walmart is no friend of poor people. Walmart offers low prices as short term enticements but leaves lasting and profound ecomonic and social damage in its wake-- shopping at Walmart is like voting against your own best interests.

[LanternWaste]

145. Sheesh.

"A child goes to bed hungry somewhere in the world everytime you spend a dollar at Walmart."

Let's be honest, o-kay? Evertime we buy *anything* non-essential (regardless of where or who we buy it from) rather than donating that money directly to a charity or organization that will distribute it to where it is absolutely essential, someone in the world is going to feel the ripple effects from it and have x amount of fewer calories to eat today.

Every DVD, video game, television, stereo, etc. that we buy is directly and/or indirectly depriving someone somewhere of an additional amount of calories.

If I meet someone who lives with frugality and stoicism to the point the rest of us thinks them odd or bizarre, I'll listen to and accept their condemnation of me because *only* that person has a leg to stand on holding that position. Til then, I'll say to everyone else telling me how unrighteously and unfairly my spending habits are to "shut the F*ck up and go listen to your $100 non-essential stereo while you play a $60 non-essential video-game, 'cause that's $160 that could feed a lot of people..."

Sheesh.

[Deja Q]

153. We're already destroyed. Listen to Ben...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1983539

[mongo]

157. When Walmart is operating within the laws and regulations

of the US and states, is the problem really Wal-Mart, or our governments policies and laws?

I think you are attacking the wrong entity.

Walmart is only a symptom of our failed social system.

[mike_c]

182. very good point, and I agree completely....

Walmart epitomizes many of the the drawbacks of unregulated capitalism.

[Stardust]

171. Confessions of a WalMart junkie:

I used to live a block from Walmart and shopped there all the time. I justified shopping there by telling myself I was saving time (one-stop shopping) and money (money's tight with me, too). I moved to LA a while back and the nearest Walmart is quite a drive and not quite worth it. (LA does not encourage Walmarts.) Now, the few times I've made the effort, it kinda creeps me out. I have gradually broken my addiction to Walmart and don't miss it a bit. Shopping for essentials takes more time now but I feel like I've been set free. Honestly.

[Demit]

19. I don't think stereotypes spread by the Pukes are in any way our fault.

Nor are they going to disappear if we "just change our ways". Do YOU believe the stereotype that Democrats are all upper middle class latte drinkers? Sounds like you do. That's such a shame. I think maybe you haven't met enough Democrats, to see we come from all walks of life?

[porphyrian]

22. I wish they would offer affordable alternatives...

...instead of simply finger-pointing and blaming. I'm broke as fuck, myself, and I'd love to use a forum like this to solve these problems instead of merely ranting about them.

How about we start a list of things the average person can do to either shop responsibly AND affordably, or ways to save money on unnecessary things in order to be able to afford more expensive, but more responsible, shopping?

One thing I can think of to save money, just off the top of my head, is to buy and use those florescent bulbs that screw into sockets for regular bulbs. You know, the twisted up looking ones. They cost a little more to buy, but they last a whole lot longer, and they use a whole lot less energy with the same amount of light produced. A small thing, but it adds up.

Anyone else want to take a shot?

[ElboRuum]

39. I'd start a thread.

Look, I'm decently well off, but I know what it means to be strapped. Saving money is an art form, and there's a lot of clever shit you can do, from simple changing of habits to alternatives like the one you mentioned.

You should probably top post this.

[tblue37]

40. Northwest Airlines offered a whole pamphlet of

suggestions for the employees they plan to lay off. Among them--dumpster diving!

I'm not joking. They actually suggested that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

251. That list was so insulting to the employees of NWA that it

actually made the papers in England when I was visiting there.

[Nicole]

82. Here's some alternatives

right here on DU.

All of these forums have lots of info posted, some helpful links included. If you don't find what you need, ask & someone will more than likely know or help you find it.

Ways to save money: Frugal and Energy Efficient Living Group
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=353

Yet more ways to save money & doing it the blue way: Economic Activism and Progressive Living Group
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=255

Learn to grow your own food: Gardening Group
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=246

Learn to cook your own food: Cooking & Baking Group
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=236

Learn how to do home repairs: DIY, Home Improvement, & Crafts Group
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=287

You can read Skinner's welcome at the top of each forum to see if it interests you. :)

[NuttyFluffers]

101. Fluorescent bulbs save sooo much money!

if you are in a tight budget, and the place you are living in has you paying for electricity, and allows you to change the bulbs, it is positively IMPERATIVE that you switch to fluorescent bulbs. most of us have high use bulbs in the house and just a few of those regular socketed FL bulbs last roughly around 10 years and end up saving SOOOO much money. and they now have FL bulbs for even smaller sockets, such as those 10 watt faux candle bulbs. i had a fluorescent bulb from 1992 only die on me this year, that's 14 years of savings. i took that sucker from house, to dorm, to apartment, to house, to house, each time saving money. if a family can spare themselves even $10 in a month or 2 they'd be immediately served in buying FL bulbs. the savings can be so dramatic that it can pay for itself in a mere month or two.

another big one is the usage of electric hot water kettles. gas is often more expensive than electricity in most parts of the country now, and regular kettles end up being highly inefficient in heating up water (a necessity in a home). often people also end up spend time re-heating water that cools down too rapidly, too, most kettles being metal and radiating all that heat away faster. there's several companies that make electric hot water pitchers, so keep an eye out. not only is the hot water pitcher a device to heat up water, and it heats it up faster and cheaper, it also insulates the water like a thermos thus saving the precious energy you already spent heating it up, and atop that it's far safer which saves against trips to the clinic and horrible burns. savings upon savings upon savings. the only catch is the initial investment might be hard for some. often these electric kettles run around $40-60. but then, our family noticed a rapid savings which completely offset the cost. our electric kettle ended up paying for itself in roughly 2-3 months in our energy bill (use it for coffee, cooking all sorts of food, etc. you'll be surprised how people don't think of how often you spend energy to heat water). we've easily saved enough money now to repurchase the thing 4-5 times over; pretty much saved around $15-20 a month (gas is scary expensive here, and the gas kettle cooled too damn quickly).

oh, and when purchasing food, besides the ramen, buy some frozen or canned mixed vegetables. in fact, stores often have specials on frozen and canned stuff because it doesn't always move so fast. i've seen some real nice deals for mixed vegetables (3-4 packs/cans for a $1) just to get it off the shelves. 1/2 cup to a cup of that thrown into ramen provides much needed diversity and nourishment. actually, in my starving student days i ended up scrounging pretty much whole carts of canned, frozen, dried, and fresh produce to the tune of $25-30 (around 5-6 grocery bags), though this was 6 years ago and inflation has been pretty bad lately. but i found that as long as i have access to cheap onions, cabbage, dried beans, rice, etc. i'll regularly have access to healthy and not heavily processed food. also getting used to purchasing in season, buying it in bulk at that time, and preserving accordingly ends up with some nice savings.

[hunter]

126. Very nice post.

Just to bring up another agent of the evil empire besides Wal Mart, compact fluorescents are very inexpensive now at Home Depot, or at least they are in Northern California where some of the larger sizes are often subsidized by Pacific Gas & Electric.

The electric kettle suggestion is a good one too. Hot drinks and food can be made very inexpensively with these.

If you don't have electricity or gas, maybe because you live in a shack deep in the woods, the "Kelly Kettle" is the stick fired equivalent (but uninsulated).

[IronLionZion]

130. if you want to stay warm in winter

use electric blankets at night instead of turning the heat up. Heating your bed is cheaper than heating the whole house/apartment. Wear fleece and wool!

If you can drive, get your produce from the farmer's market NOT the organic grocery store. And get your non-perishable foods from the discount grocery store. If you can live without meat, you'll save a bundle right there but open-air markets can give you affordable meat. If you can't drive, get some friends together and share a taxi. Shopping by bus royally sucks.

When it's hot you can use wet washcloths or lightly spray mist on your clothes and self rather than crank up the A/C. Ice in front of a fan works nicely too.

A simple candle will help control your spicy cooking smells better than any type of hood fan over your stove. A candle can help control the smell in your bathroom too instead of using that fan.

You can save tons of money every day by simply thinking about each and every time you spend money and analyze the costs and benefits. You have to make it a habit and get into that mindset. What is most convenient also tends to be most expensive.

Coupons work.

[Quantess]

221. A productive, idea generating thread. Sounds great!

I have lots of cost-cutting ideas honed out of necessity, and I'm sure others do, too!

However, most people would rather argue, and maintain the aura of hopelessness. They'd just say "no, a lot of poor people can't do that because of X."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

24. Has Nothing To Do With Them Being Better Off. They're Just Falsely

self righteous and nauseously preachy. I've seen some of them here myself but I doubt many of them are well off. They seem to just have this inner need to give themselves reason to believe they are better than others somehow. But pay them no mind, for they are not.

Though sometimes they try to speak loudly and make themselves appear large in number, in reality there are far more here who are tolerant of all of our individualities and choices than there are those who offer the false preachings and empty guilt.

Don't sweat it. :)

[SammyWinstonJack]

164. !

:thumbsup:

[peacetalksforall]

25. Here's a link from this AM. Two for one - learn about Hezbocrat and

read a thread about buying at Wal-Mart.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1968806

[ms liberty]

67. Wow...

I posted on that thread this morning, and it got removed! That's never happened to me before!

I wonder why? I was less rude than the person I was answering, I didn't cuss them or anything. And I've seen much worse here over the years! Maybe I struck a nerve.

[mike_c]

89. don't feel bad....

I had a post removed above in this thread that said-- civilly, if I recall-- that Walmart exploits workers and is no friend of the poor. Go figure.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

134. Same thing here

As far as I know I didn't break a single rule either. I always try and respect the rules... My first deleted post was for pointing out that some people don't have choices on where they shop? Freaky. LOL

We're like sisters now. :)

[nealmhughes]

26. Don't worry, unless we are with BushCo at the executive level,

we shall all be peons soon, save impeachment.

[hyphenate]

27. There are many of us

here who aren't exactly living high off the hog. I get by right now through the grace of a friend in letting me live in his house second floor apartment for nothing, and on a monthly disability check of just about $1000 a month.

I see no shame in going to Wal-mart or any other store. I go where I can afford to go, and that's it. I would shop more at my Target, but for expensive items, I can only go to Wal-mart because Target doesn't have lay-a-ways and I need to go that route for things beyond my ordinary expenses each month.

Yes, there are some here who don't understand what it's like to be poor or underprivileged, but I know I tend to ignore them when they start with their rants. The fact that they aren't acquainted with some aspects of poverty is plain to see, and I only hope that someday they will have the wisdom to understand their own lack of empathy toward the poverty-driven liberals among us, myself included.

As a matter of fact, I was recently lamenting that when I was growing up, we lived in the inner city, and now the inner city has become the yuppie haven and many low income families have been tossed out of it, and many people no longer have refuge in what was one of the few places in which we could live. People who have no ability to live in the places we all counted on as our one main home end up with no place else to go. And cities, like my hometown of Boston, is no longer a place where families can go who haven't got very much to begin with.

Shopping at Wal-mart is one of the few places we can count on, and I feel no shame in that, personally. I DO tend to discount people who can't understand that, because liberals are supposed to know and understand that we ALL come from a wide variety of backgrounds, from poor to rich, from high school dropouts to Ph.Ds. If someone says they're a liberal and then goes on to discount someone's opinion based on their shopping habits, they aren't true liberals and should be shown the door as much as any wolf in sheep's clothing that comes here.

[tinfoil tiaras]

36. Amen

I would never consider myself poor (hell, i go to a VERY pricey private school), but I see poor people everyday, on the streets, downtown, etc. And I know that they pretty much have no other place to go exept for Wal Mart and other big stores like that. I'ts just ridiculous to think that you're superior to someone b/c of the place you get your damn groceries...:wtf:

[driver8]

96. Excellent post. n/t

[ElboRuum]

29. Just so you know...

"the stereotype of us Dems as upper-middle class latte-drinkers" won't ever disappear. It's too damn valuable to Republicans. I would think it obvious by now that the truth is simply a minor inconvenience to them.

[IronLionZion]

138. Just because Republicans use it

doesn't mean it isn't true. It would be great if Dems would start bashing corporate conservatives for looking down on their fundy base.

Quite a few rich repubs have told me that the reliable Dem base of "poor urban minorities" are the dumbest and most gullible people in America and without them we wouldn't be much of a party. Wal-mart doesn't usually locate in inner cities. They prefer the suburbs and rural areas so they can build a big store with a big parking lot on the edge of town and everyone can drive to it.

[alittlelark]

31. My sis has very limited means yet manages to avoid chains

She has the advantage of living in a big city (alb). Farmers markets, farm vendors, the local co-op, thrift stores, craigs list.... Her kids are doing fine.

It is possible for 80 or so % of us (geographically) to avoid the chains. It is difficult if one is in the 20% however.



I do not diss those that shop at those chains..... I just hope they see it as the last option.

[OzarkDem]

47. Good for her, but it may not work for others

Please save your criticism for GOP'ers.

[alittlelark]

72. If you read my post you would realize there is NO criticism

.....did you read it?

[LostinVA]

246. The poster wasn't criticizing ANYONE -- the opposite, in fact

[spacelady]

33. Oh Hell, shopping at Wal-Mart doesn't make you a Commie, Joe.

The OP is correct, they have the best prices & sometimes the ONLY prices in the area. Would you rather have people waste GAS driving to the Acceptable Stores??

[CelticWinter]

34. I hate walmart with passion

but for right now I have to buy certain things there. My cat food and litter which is anywhere from 2-3 dollars cheaper on the cat food and at least 2 on the litter and when you buy 40 lbs of food and 90 lbs of litter it all adds up. The money I save there I spend at the local markets. Right now I have to take the good with the bad...but its not a forever thing and the day will come when I can tell wallys world to take a flying leap on a rolling donut to the moon :-)

[countingbluecars]

37. I think you should do

what you need to do to make ends meet. Personally I find that staying out of Wal-mart and other mega-stores saves money in the long run. I buy groceries at the grocery store and avoid the temptations of the mega-stores when possible.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[countingbluecars]

46. Horseshit.

[Raffi Ella]

48. hahaha.OMG.

so,how long you been waiting for an excuse to post that here at D.U. my 'friend'?


:nopity:

[spacelady]

49. Who are you talking to? The ghost of Sam Walton? What!?

Help Me! Somebody! Mashed potatoes, gravy & Cranberry Sauce!
WHOOOhooo!

[OzarkDem]

45. I agree wholeheartedly

some people can be very insulting and condescending. I'm sure they don't intend to, but that's the way it is. I'm not poor and I'm offended by it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

52. here, here.

[ClassWarrior]

57. Here's a simple, compassionate solution.

If you need to shop at WalMart to get by, why not distribute a few pieces of literature from http://walmartwatch.com around the store while you're there?

Think of them as "coupons" for the savings you're getting.

:evilgrin:

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

104. No comment on this from the dividers??

This is a win-win solution, but nary a peep. Hmmmmmm...

NGU.

[U4ikLefty]

181. Nah, you will get this line from the WalMart-defenders:

"if you litter the store with those flyers, the poor widdle Wal Mart employee will have to work unpaid overtime to pick them up."

Anything they can do to paint us as bullies...a common tactic used by the GOP.

[IronLionZion]

136. Good call

and I'd put them in other corporate chains too. Thank you for not telling me to go shop at Costco or Target.

Sometimes we need to show the obvious differences, in order to resolve them and unite. I'm more of a green tea liberal myself (I don't like lattes), and waiting for someone to say I support the corporate commies in China.

:hi:

[buddysmellgood]

60. Can't you buy Ramen noodles elsewhere? You're spewing divisive crap.

Excuse me now, I have to go boating.

[spacelady]

63. Who cares where people shop? The divisive crap is where to

go boating. My boat is bigger than Wal-mart.

[Raffi Ella]

78. "You're spewing divisive crap"

I would've taken this post seriously had she left the Republican smear of Democrats out of it... :thumbsdown:

[LaPera]

61. I would never insult...it makes no fucking difference to me, who has bucks

and who doesn't...I learned long ago about money and about the people who lust after it - I was poor enough, maybe lucky enough, perhaps intelligent enough and definitely sensitive enough, to recognize the realness from the bullshit... growing up in SF as I did...at a time as Carlos Santana, who had been in every town across this country and every country in the world said..."If you weren't in San Francisco in the sixties, you missed it!". Many places were amazing then, but not quite like SF...still, many had the chance there and missed it, maybe they weren't equipped to care...it was different and enlightening in SF than anywhere else I'd ever been...still it passed right by many people who were here right there during it all, and didn't see it, nor get it, passed them right by.... many of my friends included.... they saw it all I suppose as just style, fad or fashion...and the bucks became the most important thing in their life and still is......I wanted real. I needed more than that so I looked and found more, my soul perhaps needed more, in that exact time and place that changed me... the phoniness, image, and the bullshit was all around, still is, but there also were a lot of true people, real people trying....each day recognising what was real, as well as recognizing the games, the bullshit and the egos... still, one can't get completely away from it all, so it becomes how and where is best to achieve some sort of positive place in ones mind to make it easier...getting away physically is what's worked for me..always good therapy...Now I live further north in a very liberal area...I help when I can & when I feel I should and sometimes don't really feel like it...much easier to enjoy the sunny days here on the ocean with a organic sweet bud, music in the air...so I must force myself to get off my ass because even that gets old very quickly....Since I am in a liberal area on the coast where people with no money drift up and down the coast, because the weather is mild all year long here, also means there's many who need help... And I do help, I give and I listen and do favors and I love it...I'm doing well in my life now financially...but that can be gone tomorrow...I try very hard not to make judgements.... ever though I do get angry and frustrated when I read about the ignorance and greed and hate...yet full circle I was able & lucky enough to see and hold on to my peace, (not always, but mostly) it was there for whomever was able to open up...though I still do have a hard time understanding shopping at Wal-Mart...Perhaps that's where I need to understand and learn. Maybe because we don't have one anywhere in our county, voted them out twice, when they wanted to move in...But I know I would personally look for other options, there always there. Knowing I have much to learn... I'll keep trying...But I don't put down.... just suggest!

[Midlodemocrat]

65. I've never seen this.

I have, however, seen DUers reach out to other DUers in need.

[AnnieBW]

68. "Hezbocrats"

If your only choice is to shop at Wal-Mart, then fine. That's your only choice. But remember what their top executives think of people like us. They compared us to Hezbollah. I choose not to support people that do that. Your mileage may vary.

[fed-up]

70. Odin- I think I recognize you as a pot stirrer, try putting some rice in

your pot instead of ramen, and you will get more bang for your buck

here are some links to the nutritional content of rice and the nutritional content of top ramen, why spend money on cardboard???

As a single mother for the past almost 18 years we have been through our good and bad times, good was when we could go to mcdonalds once every six months (wouldn't go there now though). I also ran a family day care and learned how to serve nutritious meals at low cost. Most of the rest of the world manages to survive on rice and beans and beans and rice and those combos got us through many a tough time.

My son is now a college student and I made sure to teach him how to buy only the basic whole foods when money was tight. Popcorn is also a good filler for hungry tummies, and is better nutrition wise than top ramen.

All About Rice
Rice Nutrition Facts
Rice Data Center
http://www.pechsiam.com/allabout_nutrition.htm

Top ramen nutrition facts (from label)
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-B00001-01c20KX.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/ramen
Health concerns of instant ramen

Instant ramen has often been criticized for its potential health risks. Some of these claims are justified, while others could be made against any diet that contains too much of a particular food.

A single serving of instant ramen is high in carbohydrates and low in fiber, vitamins and minerals. Instant ramen is typically fried, which makes it high in saturated fat. A popular college urban legend states that a student gave himself scurvy by living on nothing but ramen for an entire year. <1>

Ramen broth, especially that of instant ramen, contains monosodium glutamate (MSG) and a high amount of sodium, usually in excess of 60% of the U.S. Recommended Dietary Allowance. The noodles themselves contain little sodium, so one can avoid drinking the soup if a low-sodium diet is recommended for health reasons. The fact that instant ramen noodles are usually fried (sometimes in hydrogenated vegetable fat, i.e., trans fat) and thus have a high fat content is another concern.

The most recent controversy surrounds dioxin and other hormone-like substances that could theoretically be extracted from the packaging and glues used to pack the instant noodles. As hot water is added, it was reasoned that harmful substances could seep into the soup. After a series of studies were conducted, this concern was found to be baseless, unless the packaging had been cooked in a pressure cooker for an extended period of time.

[alcibiades_mystery]

73. Hmmmm

Let me ask you a question: Are you willing to allow any criticism of Walmart or processed foods?

It seems to me that you identify with these two structures that you're "forced" to enter into.

Do you take any criticism of them as a personal criticism?

I will tell you this: I will never stop critiquing Walmart or the disgusting and poisonous food culture constituted by processed foods. Why? Because I feel that the first contributes mightily to oppression of the working class, while the second is monstrously unhealthy and poisons that same group. Poisons, both. I like Ice Cube's take on this:

Fresh out of school cause I was a high school grad
gots to get a job cuz I was a high school dad
Wish I got paid like I was rappin' to the nation
but thats not likely, so here's my application
Pass it to the man at AT&T
Cuz when I was in school I got the a. e. e.
But there's no s. e. for this youngsta
I didn't have no money so now I have to hunch the
Back like a slave, thats what be happenin
but whitey says there's no room for the African
Always knew that I would clock G's
but welcome to McDonalds can I take your order please
Gotta sell ya food that might give you cancer
cuz my baby doesn't take no for an answer

This is a much more astute and conscious understanding of the situation than your post, because it can separate the structural conditions of poverty from the personal situations that it forces people into. In other words, just because the narrator has to work at McDonald's and probably provide poisonous food to his child doesn't mean that he identifies with the Company, and screams like hell when it is criticized. He knows that the Company is fucking him too. Now, I agree that many Whole Foods fanatics don't understand the class dimensions of health in our society, and I agree that some people are too flippant about their boycotts of Walmart when they aren't forced to shop there for structural socio-economic of geographical reasons. Yes. But I hope you don't mean to bar al;l criticisms of these entities, because they are bad, and they are killing you.

[Marie26]

74. Hear Hear! nt

[RB TexLa]

75. Hey! what's wrong with drinking lattes?

[IronLionZion]

137. It's all that milk

it doesn't sit well in my stomach after eating anything. :silly:

[smalll]

269. What's wrong with drinking lattes?

Oh nothing. Except, well ... I Don't Drink them With You!

[progmom]

271. ...

:spray:

[upi402]

80. good point OP, but one begats the next

If people boycotted WalMart, buy American, and buy UNION - WalMart would be starved out, and workers would not.

[InvisibleTouch]

83. My only problem is when someone HAS the choice...

...and consciously decides not to make it. I know people who decry the evils of Wal-Mart, but then shop there because it's cheaper - not because they're poor, quite to the contrary, but because they're stingy. And then they bitch about Wal-Mart destroying communities. It's not the shopping itself that aggravates me, it's the hypocrisy. It's having the choice, and blowing it off. That's a very different matter than shopping at the cheapest store because you simply can't afford to do otherwise. I've got no problem with that - or even with an honest admission that you're just looking for the lowest price, as long as you don't then get on your high horse about Wal-Mart type stores in general. ("you" generic, in this case, not addressing any particular poster)

[midnight]

86. Thanks for reminding some of us to be more thoughtful.

We not only need to think about what we say here, but more importantly what we say when we walk away from here. I hope all get a healthful meal and don't have to struggle so much. Once I said to a close friend that everyone deserves healthy food, water, and a place to work out. It should not be a luxury for the few. Of course that thinking goes against capitalism.

[Art_from_Ark]

87. Sometimes there is no real choice

Take the example of Rogers, Arkansas, Wal-Mart's hometown. In the 1960s, there were 6 supermarkets in the town of 8,000 population, including 5 that were within walking distance of the downtown area. Wal-Mart was still a mom-and-pop operation that shared space with one of these supermarkets. In the downtown area you could shop at two five-and-dime stores, three shoe stores, three pharmacies, three auto parts stores, four clothing stores, two or three jewelry stores, a home interior store, and various other shops. Today, the downtown area looks nice but is in decline (despite what the local newspaper says) and most shops seem to go out of business in a couple of years. In a town of nearly 50,000 population now, there is only one supermarket left, and it appears to be struggling. Wal-Mart is a couple of miles from downtown, so the people who lived close to downtown to be close to everything now find themselves with few choices and much inconvenience if they don't have transportation. They certainly can't jaunt off to Fayetteville, 20 miles away, to go shopping at Target or the co-op, or hurry off to the new shopping complex out in the middle of nowhere.

[spinbaby]

97. Sometimes Wal-Mart takes away your choices

I live in a small city that has a poor population that often lacks transportation. When you're too poor to own a car and there is next to no public transportation, you shop where you can walk. This town used to have two pretty fair groceries in town. They competed with each other and the poor in town walked to get their groceries. Then the Wal-Mart moved in just outside of town. One of the groceries closed down. The other grocery suddenly became much more expensive. Many poor were left with a choice of shopping at the very expensive grocery or walking two miles along busy roads with no sidewalks to get their groceries at Wal-Mart. Those who need the Wal-Mart the most are the very ones who have the most trouble getting there, and they find that they no longer have a decent grocery in town. I can't say that Wal-Mart has helped us, but I certainly don't blame anyone for shopping there.

[Solon]

91. Ramen Noodles are about 10 cents no matter WHERE you go...

so I don't really see your point. And yes, I DO know about that, I had some for lunch yesterday. Wal-Mart, on average, isn't any cheaper than any other place you shop that's a big box retailer.

[FILAM23]

144. You are correct

Wal_MArt isn't any cheaper then other big box retailers.
Nor are they any worse. Having worked for various retailers
both big box and Mom and Pop type I can say there is no difference.
As far as pay and benefits Wal-Mart is about in the middle of the pack.
The only critizism I have for Wal-Mart is the way they fight unions.
Changing subjects my POV on unions is that everyone should be able to
join a union but no one should be forced to join (so called "closed shop" rules)
Having worked for a closed union shop in the past I would take umemployment
before I'd ever do so again. But that is my personal choice, a choice everyone
should have.

[rman]

98. unsubstantiated accusations

re "classism by some of the more well off DUers"

[MadHound]

99. Everybody's circumstances are different

Yet even when I was poor, which was a large portion of my adult life, or even homeless, I managed to stay out of WalMart. I also managed to eat fairly healthy in general because I always grew at least some of my own food. Growing one's food is the cheap, yet healthy way of getting fresh produce. And frankly, any urban area over 50,000 people has cheap alternatives to shopping at WalMart. Dollar General, KMart, etc. Pleading poverty isn't an excuse for a person to let go of their core values and beliefs.

That being said, everybody's circumstances are different:shrug:

[DarkTirade]

100. For me the 'WalMart' issue isn't so much a matter of price as it is time

I work the night shift. The only time I really have to stop by the grocery store is usually after work. And the only thing open right then is WalMart unfortunately.
Although, since I work a crappy night shift job, I can't really afford much better anyhow.

[Kip Humphrey]

105. Challenge to well-off DUers

Get off your wallet and give to one or more DUers who need it - perhaps a deserving DUer who you enjoy or who's views you support and who struggles to make ends meet. Even a small monthly stipend can make a big difference to someone without. If you're a wealthy suspicious type, assume payment of someone's electric bill or rent. Share your wealth.

[Atman]

111. Yeah...share your wealth...with strangers on a message board!

Oh, btw everybody -- I need a few bucks, too. Really! Just send me money, trust me...I'll buy fresh veggies with it! Honest!

Kip, many people (most people I know, anyway) have money because they don't just give it away to the Cause du jour. Donating to charity, volunteering, buying supplies for the kids' school, or dropping off a box of stuff to the Community Kitchen -- these are the types of giving that you'll find many of us do readily. But let me offer this little case in point, about our kid's friends in elementary school. They lived on the other side of the neighborhood; dad was a mechanic, mom worked for her uncle's carpet store a few days a week, cash under the table. They drove ancient, rusty cars, lived in a tiny, messy Cape-style house with three boys...and they ate CRAP. Because that is a) what mom knew how to make, and b) it was all they could afford on a mechanic's salary. At the time, I was making a six figure income from my creative consulting business. We'd shop at the wholesale club and come home and break open the bulk packs and bring them "extras" every couple of weeks. We did this after seeing their kids come to our house and ravage every piece of fresh fruit in our fridge. They never got any fresh fruit at home, they told us. Mom was one of those daily menu people...Wednesday was ALWAYS spaghetti. Friday was ALWAYS frozen pizza. Anything CHEAP. It never altered, and it was pretty clear the kids weren't likin' it. So we tried to have them over for dinner as often as possible, or offer to bring a covered dish over, and hang out with them. But you have to imagine, while the kids loved it, while it made us feel like we were helping, it really undermined dad, who felt our generousity was an indictment of his crappy job. He may not have had a lot, but dammit, he bought his family a house and kept them fed! We backed off, and fortunately remained friends. But let it be lesson. People don't necessarily want such a blatant hand-out, and some can be quite offended by it.

Oh...I recently ran into one of the folks from the old neighborhood -- despite their relative poverty, all three boys managed to go at least to Community College and mom had long since been kicked out of the house. Seems her under-the-table money was going to Vodka, not helping out the kids.

It's always something!

[Midlodemocrat]

114. And what makes you think well off DUers haven't already done that?

[conflictgirl]

175. That's a really great idea!

And I see below that someone said that some DU'ers already do that, which is fabulous.

I used to participate at a parenting board for many years, and when we moved back to Michigan, I was very unexpectedly pregnant after my husband had a vasectomy and he was unemployed for almost 6 months. I will never forget it - I got a knock on the door one day and the UPS driver dropped off 3 boxes of food from Diamond Organics (edited to clarify in case it wasn't obvious, the box was from someone online who sent it to me as a surprise).

Our fortune has risen and fallen in the time since, but in the times when we had it to spare, I've always passed on the good deed to others. Even when I didn't have cash, I still did things like donating baby clothes to friends in need or giving them a place to stay.

I firmly believe that when you do something like that for others, it perpetuates something like good karma. That's why I've always done it when I had the chance. Plus I'm trying to live in accordance with what I want my government to do - if I want the government to have a safety net for people, I need to provide one to the extent that I can, too.

[Khayembii Communique]

107. Your Definition of "Class" is False

Class is not determined by income, but by one's relation to the means of production. The belief that class is determined by income is a typical middle-class analysis of capitalism. You have to realize that it is completely false and that it completely muddles the way that capitalism works.

[Saphire]

108. thank your for this post...from those of us who are having a hard

time financially. I don't make much money, and have to live within my means. If that means I have to buy from Wal-Mart, then I just have to. I am tired of the better off's telling me that I'm basicly lazy for not having a better job. I work hard for the money I get, live within my means and I'm not in any debt.

[TheFriedPiper]

109. o pleese, stop making excuses for supporting WalMart's evil practices

[Atman]

115. They have a point, though.

It may be tough to understand, especially if you live in a nice suburban area with a shopping strip. I have no fewer than six major super-store super markets within five miles in any direction from my house. Two Stop & Shops, two Shaw's (Albertsons), and a very nice locally owned chain, Big Y. Plus, slightly farther off we have access to a Trader Joes, Wild Oats and Whole Foods. At the end of my street we have a small "boutique" grocery, with an old-fashioned butcher shop and gourmet prepared foods. I have more choices than I can know what to do with.

But have you ever driven across upstate New York? Wal Marts have literally killed entire villages. I used to have a client in Oneata, NY, and forgot my dress shoes one day on the way to a meeting. I pull off an exit where I had seen a mall on previous trips. It was just a strip mall, but had JC Penny and some smaller outlets. But when I actually pulled up to it, every store in the stip was out of business. I drove a bit further to a new Wal Mart (this was about six or seven years ago) which was massive. The biggest store I'd ever seen. Full-size McDonalds, Taco Bell and Pizza Hut inside the store, a full size Sears auto store inside the store, a super-sized grocery department inside...you literally couldn't see across the store it was so massive.

And it had literally sucked in every single customer in the village to the point where there were no other choices for them. When you're in upstate New York, it ain't like just jumping in the mini van and running out for a gallon of milk. Many of these ultra rural areas really don't have anything but a Wal Mart, because Wal Mart has killed off all competitors, and has become the employer AND shopping source. The company store.

Choices are only good if you have them to make. But even then, Wal Mart DOES sell healthy food! You just have to actually buy it.

[kiki]

112. To rephrase John Lennon:

Poor people are the of the world.

[LWolf]

116. Suggesting that

there are other places to get necessities at low cost than Walmart is not evidence of classism.

I suggested just that in a recent thread; is this thread in response to that one? Just for the record:

I come from poor working people. I lived in more than a dozen run-down apts, not counting the times we had to stay with others to keep a roof over our heads, growing up with my single working mom. As a young woman, I sometimes lived in cars or tents. With my 2 young kids. There was a time when I fed my toddler, myself, and my unborn child from church potlucks and soup kitchens. I DON'T NEED TO BE TOLD BY ANYONE THAT CRITICISM OF WALMART SPRINGS FROM CLASSISM OR PRIVELEGE.

[lectrobyte]

118. Is that the sound of a straw man falling?

[Bridget Burke]

119. We need a list of communities where WalMart is the ONLY option.

Not just where it's the "most convenient" for one-stop shopping. Are the "down & outs" only able to afford dial-up connections to DU?

Lose the Republican talking points about "latte-drinking" liberals & make some good suggestions about better options that Ramen.

All too many of my coworkers make more money than I do--but they still park their SUV's at WalMart every weekend.

[ourbluenation]

125. well said Brid...where I live I can drive an hour away to be a "better"

consumer because I live in podunk usa and the big city is 60 miles out. Or, I can save the gas, wear and tear on the environment and my car, time, etc, and shop at wally world here at home. I choose the latter and anyone who has a problem with it can kiss my big irish ass.

[ClassWarrior]

132. Fine, then get up off your "big irish ass" and earn your discount.

If you need to shop at WalMart to get by, why not distribute a few pieces of literature from http://walmartwatch.com around the store while you're there?

Think of them as "coupons" for the savings you're getting.

NGU.

[ourbluenation]

168. I love that website...I also drop little union comments to the employees

they all wanna join one. that's clear to me.

[LWolf]

209. A question:

I don't kiss ANYONE'S ass, but I have a sincere question.

I've never seen a town, large or small, with a Walmart that didn't also have a Target, KMart, 99cent store, dollar store, thrift stores, etc. within close proximity to the walmart.

I live in what used to be a small town; we've grown so rapidly that I don't know how "rural" we are anymore, although people still ride their horses down the highway that cuts through downtown, and you can still see cows and other livestock in people's pastures within a mile from downtown.

We have a walmart. We also have a dollar store, a couple of thrift stores, another local discount store (name escapes me, but there is a green shamrock on the sign), a Fred Mayer, a small warehouse for local stuff, and a local farmer's market a couple of times a week. The town 14 miles south has another walmart, but also has a target, a bimart, a costco, etc..

In my previous town, 900 miles away, the walmarts shared parking lot space with 99cent stores and other discount stores, with Targets and Kmarts within a block.

Are there really places where Walmart is the only choice?

[ourbluenation]

216. We had a k mart too - it closed. eom

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[L A Woman]

140. you seem pretty ignorant yourself

there are an awful lot of places in this country where the only options are expensive smaller shops - and WalMart. my sister lives in such a place and she has no other choice.

you just said you have two other options. so it's not really a sacrifice for you NOT to shop at WalMart now, is it?

do you pat yourself on the back when you poop, too?

genius.

[AngryAmish]

121. I was discussing this in the member's lounge at my country club yesterday

[lonestarnot]

122. I'd rather get a food box at a local handout that has ramen noodles

than buy food at Walmart.

[upi402]

169. I see 99% of WalMarters with cell phones.

So this is a strawaman argument

[ovidsen]

191. So?? A cell phone's cheaper than a land line. n/t

[upi402]

226. cell phone service and/or the phones are more $, yes

folks shopping at walmart are not starved looking, generally. pretty obese often.

99% don't head in back to the dumpster after buying their chinese tv.

[boolean]

123. Since when is processed food cheap??

Processed foods are typically more expensive than other food.

[nemo137]

128. Really? Next time you're at the store, check something out.

Look at the price tags on, say, a loaf of wonderbread and a loaf of really nice 9-grain bread. Then take a look at the ingnredients. I'm willing to bet a fairly significant amount of money that the wonderbread is cheaper, and has more artificial ingredients.

[Quantess]

174. Does anyone buy potatoes anymore?

A bag of real potatoes?
A bag of carrots?
A clump of celery?

It's all very affordable.

Add some bouillon and water(6 large cubes of which can be bought for $1 to $1.50), and you have soup! And leftover bouillon cubes for the next batch of soup.

But nooo, "I'm so poor I have to eat Hot Pockets and Stouffer's Mac & Cheese! I'm so poor I have to eat bologna and processed cheese sandwiches!" I'm not buying that. Potatoes and rice are cheap and far more nutritious than most processed foods. They take work and time to prepare. So, it's not that someone is too poor to eat right, it's that they are too lazy to prepare a good meal from scratch. The only good excuse is that they don't have access to a stove, or they are seriously cooking-challenged.

[mongo]

183. Hard to find time to make soup

When everyone in the family has too jobs just to pay the bills.

Eating on the run goes with the territory.

[kilgore65]

188. Potatoes have gotten expensive around here...

$3.75 for a 1lb bag at Kroger... outragous.... but it reflects the increased cost of fuel to truck them in from Idaho I suppose....

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

202. I find that hard to believe.

Here potatoes are $2.99/5lbs and $3.99/5lbs organic. And that is the HOME DELIVERY supermarket prices. It's cheaper at the store and the cost of living in NJ is far higher than in MS.

[laundry_queen]

218. I think you exaggerate.

Dh just bought some 'designer' baby potatoes today, $5 for a 5lbs bag. And I'm in a northern community in Canada. US food is much cheaper.

[LostinVA]

249. There are way cheaper than that n/t

[datasuspect]

257. in 2005

i was getting 5 pound bags of potatoes for .98 in chicago.

3.75 for 1 lb.?

that seems obscene.

[Pathwalker]

238. I do. Potatoes, carrots AND celery.

I make most everything from scratch. Which is why a LOT of people like to eat at my house. Rice - not so much, and even less now that the US rice supply has been contaminated. As for noodles - nothing beats homemade noodles - NOTHING.

[diamidue]

266. I make my own noodles sometimes, too. Good & cheap

but kind of time consuming. Add a little spinach and ricotta cheese and you have great ravioli. I just dug up my first batch of potatoes - kind of small, but they will work well in soup. I eat lots of organic brown rice - topped with simple curries or covered with spicy black beans; or stir-fried with ginger & garlic & left-over vegetables; thick lentil stew topped with warm mashed potatoes and a dot of butter on top. yum. Oatmeal with cinnamon & raisins; egg tacos with parmesan dusted on the corn tortilla; roasted vegetables with rosemary and olive oil; fish on sale; lots of green salads; vegetable pot pies; spagetti, etc. I could go on and on. None of these costs much & none are hard to make.
Never settle for packaged, processed crap.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

253. The problem is that a generation has grown up not learning how to

cook from scratch.

A person isn't BORN knowing what to do with a sack of fresh vegetables. Just about any combo of vegetables can be turned into a soup or a stir-fry or a topping for pasta, but a person isn't going to know that unless he or she has been explicitly taught.

If I were education czarina, I'd make cooking classes mandatory for both boys and girls.

Years ago, when I lived in New Haven, the New Haven Food Co-op, run by a bunch of lefties and located in an ethnically mixed neighborhood, held classes on cooking cheap but nutritious meals. They consciously recruited the black and Latino families that lived in the area.

I don't know if they're still doing it, but it's the kind of thing that needs to happen nationwide.

[datasuspect]

256. beans, potatoes, rice

carrots, other root vegetables, celery, stuff like that is plenty cheap.

use meat as a flavoring instead of an entree and you can eat very well for under 20/week. and NO RAMEN!!!!!

[datasuspect]

255. in our locally owned market here

.59 will get a loaf of store brand wheat (blech, but cheap).

my preference, the big sliced bread with nuts and berries and all that good shit, almost 3.00.

go figure.

[LostinVA]

247. You are 100% correct

There was a great thread about this over the weekend.

[lumberjack_jeff]

124. This is manifested in many ways

The "how can you be so thoughtless as to shop at WalMart" meme is just one.

From estate taxes; "how much estate income should be exempt from tax? $5m? $10m?" to Immigration; "wages won't drop from the effect of millions of immigrants if you all just organize. Besides, wages are only lost by those who are poorly educated." to income distribution; "$250,000 per year is middle income - if you live here in my fancy neighborhood".

The thing that is good about wealthy DU'ers is that they usually have enough empathy to understand that their experience may not be everyone's, but everyone, no matter how empathetic, is a product of their experiences.

I feel strongly that populism is the way to retake power. Our current laundry list of causes are cargo for that vehicle, not stand-alone vehicles. That sentence may seem like a non-sequitur, but it's not. My concern is that public policy is crafted (by both parties) to not offend those who have the resources to complain.

What would help us poor folks, is to set up the conditions where we can prosper: 1) limit the size of the immigrant workforce to a size at which the economy can support, 2) protect social security by pointing out that our surplus social security taxes are insurance premiums the benefits to which we're entitled (which is not a bad word). 3) Universal health insurance now. There are lots of people who've gotten rich at the expense of the needs of the poor, they have the resources to object. Our claim is the greater.

[Kickoutthejams23]

127. There is some classism involved.

I know Repukes who refuse to shop at Walmart because of the customer base. "It's like Disneyworld for White Trash" is one of their favorite quotes. Those consumers don't hear this country club banter from the right. What the hear is the quite public protest from the left. Often by people in DK t-shirts driving mom's volvo and asking why can't they shop at Whole Foods like a "normal" person.

That is why the elitist barb sticks to one side and not the other.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kickoutthejams23]

133. I'm hardly a troll.

And it isn't always a stereotype. If the people protesting Walmart are better dressed, drive better cars, and lets face it are younger, thinner, better looking, and dare I say it whiter than the customers going in. It can and will appear as elitist.

[ClassWarrior]

135. Yeah, you keep pushing that meme.

NGU.

[IronLionZion]

129. You mean you don't drive your Prius to Costco?

And have lots of free time for anti-war protests? What you actually work more than 40 hours a week? Every week!?!?! OMG! :sarcasm:

Elitism blows, but it's in every political party. We all know how the corporate conservatives feel about the fundy hordes they have to pander to.

[Kickoutthejams23]

141. Here is the problem

Walmart Protesters






Walmart Shoppers







That can be the image out there. I don't think it is correct. But image is important in any fight.

But Do I think some people protest Walmart stores because they don't want "those people" in their neighborhood. Yobetcha

Separating those of us that have serious issues with Walmart to those who don't want poor people and traffic in their neighborhood isn't always easy for the general uninformed public.

Thats the point I was making in my previous post.

[Quantess]

184. I don't see any problem with the first two photos.

"But Do I think some people protest Walmart stores because they don't want "those people" in their neighborhood. Yobetcha"

Wal Mart doesn't usually try to put stores in places where "those people" don't already live.
Other concerns are: traffic congestion, the ugly-store factor, the tearing-up and paving-over of nature, concern for smaller stores, and last but not least: Wal Mart's policies and practices.

The mayor of my town successfully stopped Wal Mart from building on an already congested area of town. The traffic jams outside a WalMart at that location would be a nightmare. They had to widen the road there anyway, even without a Walmart.

I wrote her a letter thanking my mayor for preventing the WalMart store, saying that, although our town is full of potential Wal Mart shoppers, our town is a really aesthetically pleasing, rustic, and historical place that deserves more respect than to have a Wal Mart store put in it.

If it's "elitist" to want to maintain the dignity and beauty of your home town, and not have to sit in traffic jams, then go ahead and call me an elitist.

[carolinayellowdog]

142. Cluelessness about income distribution and living costs

What I've seen several times here when personal finance is discussed, I attribute to ignorance rather than malice. People who say that they can barely get by on 75k, and anyone making under 50k is living in poverty; or who make generalizations about real estate prices based on a very unrepresentative (expensive) locality. Last year I bought a lovely old brick house, in good condition and in a good neighborhood, for under $25,000. Sometimes when I see DUers from more prosperous parts of the country talk about personal finance, I think we're not living in the same universe.

[McCamy Taylor]

146. Be fair. There is classism everywhere including here.

[etherealtruth]

154. "ain't" that the truth ....n/t

[McCamy Taylor]

147. That said, the compassionate response is please try ethnic foods

that are low cost and healthy. Rice and beans cost less than fast food and are much healthier. Indigenous people around the world live off them as staples. I lived off them in college. If you want to buy them at Wal-mart, go right ahead. However, there are cheaper stores. Places were Southeast Asians shop and Mexican-Americans shop are often very low priced.

Buying prepared foods is a waste of money. Buy ingredients and prepare your own in bulk, that will save money and give better nutrition and flavor.

[laundry_queen]

220. Absolutely.

For instance, my uncle introduced me to dahl (he loves to cook and show everyone his food of heritage). All you need is 1/2 bag of $1.28 split yellow peas (or you could buy actual 'dahl' but split peas are everywhere), an onion, a teeny bit of oil, some cumin and curry and voila. Get a $5 22lb bag of flour and you will have roti to dip in your dahl for many dahl meals to come. (roti - flour oil water). My uncle puts spinach in his dahl for veggies. (1lb bag, $5, can be frozen, usually a couple handfuls will do for the dahl, lots of spinach left). I personally like to have green beans as a side dish ($.78/can). Not the 'most healthy' meal out there, but much better than fake mac 'n cheese or ramen noodles. Very filling too because of the fiber.

I also want to say:
We have a Wal-mart and it's the first time we've lived where there is one. Honestly, their grocery prices are not that cheap. Only their junk is cheap if it's on sale. The rest is the same as in the rest of town, sometimes more. I doubt my town is unique.

[Le Taz Hot]

151. A lot of the people

you are accusing of being "better off DUers" are actually in the same boat you are (or have been) and are just trying to convey to you what works for them (me included). Yes, making food from scratch IS cheaper. Example: One cheap loaf of bread is about 89 cents. I can make it in the breadmaker I got at a yard sale for less that 50 cents. I WALK to the farmers market and I TAKE THE BUS or CARPOOL to most places I want to go. Nobody's bashing you, we're just trying to help out. Now, if your purpose is to whine about your situation as opposed to taking into consideration the pointers (from hard experience) people are trying to give you, then that's a WHOLE other topic, isn't it?

[LostinVA]

248. Thanks -- I don't make very much money

And live in a quite expensive part of Virginia. Not as bad as NOVA, but closeish.

And, I eat healthy because I buy real food and make stuff from scratch. What I "save" I use to buy organic dairy, and sometimes vegetables and fruit and meat. It's doable... but it means taking some time to do it.

[eridani]

270. Cheaper, but more time consuming

Time is something that people working two or three crap jobs don't have enough of either.

[Blue-Jay]

158. Horseshit. It doesn't cost more to eat healthy food.

[Shakespeare]

159. Indeed.

I think we just covered that exhaustively on another thread. Tried, anyway.

:hide:

[pitohui]

162. in the reality based world it does

as the other poster points out, we just discussed this in another thread

the people who claimed you could eat healthy food just as cheaply appeared never to have gone shopping or cooking in the real world and compared it dollar for dollar and penny for penny to such items available to the dirt poor as ramen noodles (transfats all the time for 10 cents or 20 cents a meal) or the 99 cent meals at wendy's, rally's, and burger king (99 cents obviously)

it costs me more than 10 cents to heat up my stove and more than 99 cents to put the food on it

there was a day when cooking and eating healthy food was cheaper, but we're only showing our age when we continue to live in the 70s

today's realities are the prices and foods we must eat today

[Shakespeare]

163. Hey, I'm dirt poor RIGHT NOW.

And I'm managing to put together decent, healthy meals.

And no, I really don't want to go through this all over again. But I assure you, I'm not living in the 70s.

Here, I'll define "dirt poor" as it applies to me at the moment: the state has my unemployment benefits screwed up, and I've had no cash for a month. I have NO money in my checking account. No "cushion" in savings. I literally have n-o m-o-n-e-y right now. I pawned some stuff and got about $40 that has covered my food (and the cats' food) for the past three weeks (and has my meals covered for the next two weeks). It's not as impossible as some people suggest. It's not fun, at ALL, but it's not impossible.

[conflictgirl]

176. Not to mention that a lot of people don't even know HOW to cook

I had some years at home with the kids in which we were poor and I deliberately scouted around online asking for tips to make cheap food, and I learned how to make beans and lentils and all kinds of cheap food. But I had to seek it out and learn how to do it, and stick with it through many failed attempts.

It is NOT common knowledge how to prepare these foods. Many of us didn't grow up eating that way.

[L A Woman]

198. Sadly, it is MUCH cheaper to eat poorly

Mac & Cheese, a buck. Feeds 4.

Fresh fish, 3 bucks per fillet (at least). Feeds 1.

Cheap microwave dinners, a buck each.

Fresh fruits and vegetables are outrageous these days and obviously have a short shelf life.

High fat ground beef, two bucks a pound, 70 fat grams in the package.

Extra lean ground turkey, seven bucks a pound. 5 fat grams in the package.

Also actual cooking takes more time than a lot of working families have.

I am very lucky to only have myself to feed, so I can eat well. If I had kids, I'd be screwed.

[fishwax]

229. I don't know why that's even a point of contention

It is so much cheaper (and easier) to eat poorly than it is to eat healthy, as all the examples you provide indicate.

Yes, it's possible to eat healthy on a limited budget, if you have the time, know-how, and space available. But it is cheaper (as well as easier--no small consideration for someone working two jobs and raising a couple of kids) to eat crap.

[dipsydoodle]

161. "upper-middle class latte-drinkers"

You gotta laugh at that expression even though this is serious subject. I hope you're not classing me as one of those just cos I've got a decent espresso machine an ex-girlfriend bought me for Xmas 6 years ago.

It's different here in the UK . The supermarkets have not all been moved out of town - not were I live anyway. As a result I can easily avoid Walmart / Asda - I just go to Sainsburys instead as they face each other across a road. I can also walk to the supermarket if I feel like it - we don't all have to bear the cost of increased fuel charges for such routine things. One day maybe you'll get local shopping centres back too - in general we never lost them.

[Moochy]

193. There is no Classism in America

We banished that phenomenon when we defeated those silly communists. :proudpatriot:
All anyone needs are bootstraps! :sarcasm:

Oh, and Fuck Wal-Mart, If you are eating there you are likely poisoning yourself with processed foods.
Here kids, have a 10 pack of beef sticks and 8 pack of pizza flavored pringles!

Flamebait!

[sweetheart]

200. The narratives of class warfare

How do you supress the majority of people? The british learned over
long history of empire how to divide populations and supress them, and
in our new media world, we divide the population against itself, that
people kill each other instead of recognizing the enemy.

So, indeeed, classism is a narrative we are immersed in like fish,
strong judgements about higher and lower, of becoming homeless as if
it is a sin, or a sign from god, a profound voice telling you your
economic worth is somehow converted in to spiritual chips with god.
And woven in are the religious puritain narratives, the misogyny
narrative, self image narratives in seeming righteous, and the
survival fear all persons feel in keeping themselves and their
families off the street.

None of the stories on DU is unique, we are a collection of narratives
given voice where there are 100,000 more for every opinion, and all,
repeating the subconscious drama's of our generation, fighting with
each other, a prison population at war as gangs, whilst the guards
have a chuckle at their artful disposal of their opposition.

[petronius]

201. What's wrong with being classy?

:shrug:

(/Spinal Tap rip off joke)

[SeaBob]

211. being classy

Being "classy" does not include showing disrespect for others less fortunate than your self

[petronius]

235. You're quite right - classy and classism are unrelated

I take it you've never seen Spinal Tap? My post was a joking reference to a well-known line in a movie; nothing more, nothing less.

[Vinca]

204. Sorry, Odin2005. I admit I responded to a thread about the Walmart

executive calling us Hezbollacrats and said the way to protest was simple: don't shop there. That doesn't make me a rich, elite DUer. It makes me a fast problem solver. I'm on the bottom rung of the ladder, just above mac and cheese in a box, just below health insurance. I feel your pain.

[meisje]

208. This thread is so gauche!

[SeaBob]

210. WAL-Mart

Hear Hear!! Well said, and thanks for pointing that out. We have enough problem with out attacking each other. Attack the Wal- Mart corporation not its patron's. most of whom have no other real viable choice

[FooFootheSnoo]

213. I can't see how I'm helping workers

by shopping at any of the other big box stores or supermarkets. I'm a working class gal myself. I've worked at Publix and Target.
Publix starts most of their employees (except corporate employees which requires a college degree) off at $6/per hour. That's less than Walmart pays. One thing Publix does well is promote from within. Their assistant department managers can make up to $35,000 per year, store managers can make up to $120,000. But, their managers routinely work 11 hour days. That's the schedule. They work 6a-6p(or noon to close) with an hour lunch break. That's 5 days a week. Since the managers are salaried, they don't get paid overtime. I had a friend that was "promoted" to full time employment. She had 3 kids at home. She got a raise up to $7/hr (which was more than most, the manager told her to keep such a big "raise" hush hush). She was put in the stocking department. On the days the truck came in she worked 13 hour days. All the stocking employees had to work like that. In addition, every employee was expected to be available every weekend. If I wanted a weekend off, I had to request it. In all fairness, Publix does have a good profit sharing program and does give raises if employees do well on evaluations. The work atmosphere is not unpleasant and breaks are frequent. But, it's not a worker's paradise either.
I've never worked for WalMart, but I doubt Target is any better to their employees. At the time I worked for them they had a big safety program going because they had the most on the job injuries of the big-box type stores. Pay was $7/per hour. There was the usual "you get benefits if you work 40 hours a week, but we don't want to risk you getting one minute of overtime, so we're going to work you 37.5 hours a week denying you a chance to earn a little extra money and insurance". When the manager hired me, I told her I could only take the job if given daytime work. She said, "ok" and then proceeded to schedule me for all evenings. I repeatedly told her I needed the days shift, but she blew me off.
I don't like WalMart, but how is shopping at Target, Publix, Winn-Dixie, Albertson's, K-Mart, etc. going to help workers? Those other places are just as bad in different ways.

[CollegeDUer]

214. I usually don't diss the underclass

Or what they do because they are uneducated or underprivileged or desperate. I actually more often than not go after the yuppie-set that keeps up Wal-Mart and the corporate chains.

[BlueIris]

224. "(T)he underclass"? Oh, sweet Lord.

Honey, you do realize what year it is, correct? You're aware that it isn't 1963, 1895, or anything earlier than that...right?

[BlooInBloo]

265. Sheesh - what word do YOU prefer to use?

Or would you just rather not speak of the "underprivileged", "poor", "destitute" or WHATEVER at all?

Sheesh.

[Touchdown]

227. If you are that poor, assistance is available.

If you are THAT POOR, then you wouldn't be surfing and posting your outrage on the internet with a energy consuming computer with a $15+ a month isp.
That is...unless you found a library that hasn't blocked DU yet.;)

As was said above. Wal-Mart is not the poor person's friend. They have an entire ad campaign to get you to believe this, but it's no more true thatn their "Bring it home to the USA" cammpaign that was just as laughable a few years ago. Shopping there only ensures that more people will have lower wages, if any wages in the future. It's the company store syndrome. The more you shop there, the poorer American workers get.

And for everybody else who's talking about them selling affordable goods, BZZ WRONG. Much of their prices are artificially low, circumventing the "free market principles" libertarians espouse by offshoring work and cutting salaries. They are guilty of supporting starvation wages in the migrant worker Southwest, to their own employeees who they don't pay enough to have health care, to $4 A WEEK for making those artificially low products in China. Does anyone here REALLY thing that a 20" TV REALLY costs only $60? Yes it does, when near slaves built it.

Why not think about being paid a correct salary so that you can pay what a head of lettuce is REALLY worth?

[BlueIris]

228. I don't know what else to post except...holy shit.

I weep for you, friend. I will pray you find enough enlightenment, cultural literacy, and actual information about poverty in America and elsewhere to come down off your sad, sorry piece of moral high ground here and stop ignorantly and unjustifiably lecturing those who aren't living the way you perceive they ought to, even if they are "THAT POOR." Again, holy shit. I'm not sure if you realize how obvious it is to many of us here that you've never lived anything like the way the slaves you feign such compassion for have been forced to. Or how much of an elitist jerk it makes you appear to be, despite your self-aggrandizing claims to the contrary. "Assistance is available." Yeah, you know so much about what is available and what isn't and for whom, and how "easy" it is to live the proverbial socially conscious lifestyle we'd all love to enjoy on said assistance.

Sad.

Really, really sad.

[Touchdown]

230. Maybe I wasn't very clear on this.

Those Ramen noodles the OP is complaining about us "elitists" talking down to him is being bought at a store where they regularly fire workers who lose their hands and feet in the machines when making shoes for that very same store. I can have compassion for someone who needs to scrimp to sustain himself. Can he when he buys a pair of shoes that ensure that insafe factory remains operational? Who's the real elitist here?

Elitist jerk? THE MAN IS TALKING ABOUT STARVING ON A COMPUTER MESSAGE BOARD! The last I looked all the equipment necessary for that costs money, money that now will not buy food. I'm not making any judgements, just pointing out an expense that can be eliminated.

It's not about affordablity of products or food. It's about living wages, so that we can pay what those products are really worth. Corporate profits skyrocket with low wages, and artifically cheap goods perpetuate the cycle. The answer is to demand a living wage, no matter what you do for a living. Accepting the rigged game of the oligarchs only ensures the rest of us will fall. Companies will still make a profit, just not as fast. The rich will still get richer, just not as lightening fast.

No need to pray for me. God died on Dec 12, 2000. I hope that you find enlightenment about what the world's real power brokers are doing to the rest of us...as your own words show your elitism "...Actual information about poverty in America..." clearly shows that you care nothing of how the rest of the world serves us, and our insatiable appetite for cheap shit!

You have no place to lecture me on anything Madame.

[Nikia]

232. Cheap shoes are sold at places other than Walmart

I have been thinking about taking up running again. We recently went to a non Walmart chain store where they were selling a variety of well known running shoe brands. I bought a pair of shoes for $40. I started running 14 years ago and bought similiar pair of running shoes for around $80.
In a way it makes me feel bad because I know that the company didn't cut their price in half from 14 years ago out of the goodness of their heart. They were able to save a lot of money despite the increasing costs of fuel, machinery, and raw materials because they probably are employing more poverty laborers. Even those brands who use less slave labor probably have lowered or stagnated wages at their U.S. or other first world plants. While perhaps not as extreme as my example, it seems that the price of most clothing and shoes has not increased as fast as inflation in the recent past. Our cheap fashions are purchased with the blood of third world workers and the job and wage losses of U.S. workers. I am not proud, but most of us are guilty. Most of would not hesitate to buy the cheaper shoes.
People who buy things at Walmart need their quarters and dollars more so the price differential doesn't need to be great for them to want to go there. It also saves them time, gas money if they have a car, and more time if they don't to buy almost everything they need at one store for a lower price.

[datasuspect]

260. i've checked email

at the state unemployment office, the library, hospitals, churches, other people's houses, etc.

just because the person is talking about starving on an internet discussion board really doesn't mean very much.

you don't have to own a computer or pay connection fees to have internet access.

[snooper2]

237. more bullshit...

I assume this ties back to the eat healthy fast food thread...

Well, last night my girlfriend and I had a pork sirlion roast, it was $3.67 cents 1.71 pounds.

It's pretty easy.....so, instead of wasting gas and going to McCrackfoods...

You grab a skillet, sear both sides with a little oil. Pre-heat the oven to 325. Put the roast in the pot, add some potatoes, some onion, (I added some cauliflower that was questioned :) ), through in your favorite spices, and bake for 55 minutes for each pound.

Wow that was good, and for around $6.50 total, including the Garlic Bread that was $1.00 at Albertsons. and guess what, we have some great leftovers for tonight.
(Oh, and I am having some ramen noodles for lunch lol)


lazy people eat crappy is the bottom line...

[David Zephyr]

252. I agree.

Poor people, and I was know a lot about this because I lived on the streets for nearly 5 years, don't have the luxury of deciding what to eat because they are too busy trying to stave off hunger on a daily basis.

Poor people do not have the luxury to "be informed" about where to shop and what to buy. This applies to the working poor who are so damned busy trying to keep a roof over their head and are so damned tired from working at shitty jobs that they hardly have time to keep up with the NYT's best selling list.

Rather than bashing the poor, we'd all be better by helping them register to vote and taking them to the polls on election day.

Well said!

[DrunkenMaster]

261. what freaking garbage

You are using class warfare to belittle individuals who speak out against corporate monopolies, producers of unhealthy, planet-destroying food products and useless consumer goods.

Catch a clue.