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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:58 PM
Original message
wonderfull / Red light traffic camera ticket
And I thought i would win with innocense and common sence and a worthy stop watch .

I went to court thinking somehow it would be similar to one day 25 years ago the last time I had a ticket that was more then the setup parking ticket .

Well let me tell you , in southern calif forget it . you walk through a scanner first well seconds after you are robbed for $5 to part , set fee , you see .

Then nothing is clearly marked but somehow you find the courtroom and meet the gullage court officer with her rant of power and horror . Then you find this is strictly an step you go through before you get an actual court date . Didn't matter the yellow light timed with best efforts on my part and my stop watch was less than 2 seconds before it blared red and shot the burred photo's . I was told is was measured in nano seconds , is there such a watch , I could not say .

The ticket was $350 , $100 for the said red light and $250 for a long list that I could not write down fast enough other than to shorten the list to simply say rip off . Where this money goes , who can say .

I got an extension which cost $35 to boot so you are robbed for being broke and jobless , punished .

I must say we do live in a police state or is it country , must be country . My wife and I felt we were stripped of all rights , i was told by the judge looked to her the light was correct and if I wanted to plee not guilty I could come back and discuss it with a computer light programmer and her could describe how I was ripped off for $350 because of a sham . And such a sham it is , now since I got this ticket i stop sharp on all yellow so please don't tailgate .

This will only cause accidents through panic , put a damn sign up in bold print , like the ones you see for just about everything else . (Run this light even if you dare to call green green and pay $350 real damn soon ) I have always been a careful driver and had respect , i have to say now i have lost all respect because laws are not laws for the real crime they are a theft racket and nothing less .

I would move right out of the US if I had the money to do it because this sort of thing is unwarrented when you have no possible way to even counter the stinking ticket .
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's a traffic ticket, not the end of America as we know it.
Consider it an expensive lesson learned.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. No , it is an step to big brother
Once you accept this as normal and then accept black box voting as normal then you may as well tell all others to run for their lives .
Even job interviews I have endured this past 5 months run you though heel for a simple job of low wage , a crap job .

beside this I did not run a red light , I know this , I would recall , this is the unfair part and I have absolutely now way of proving other wise . A lesson would be a reasonable warning if you had a good record as I do and then maybe a $50 fine . And people think they are going to get their vote counted this time around , right .
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. You weren't able to clear the intersection before the light
turned red, so yeah, you technically ran the red light. It's the way those cameras work - even if you're stuck suddenly in the intersection because of the vehicle in front of you.

Either take care around the red light camera intersections, or don't go through an intersection unless you can clear it before it changes. If you aren't certain, stop at yellow.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
100. Stop at yellow would be the correct thing to do, but four years
ago I stopped at yellow and got rear-ended.

A very real possibility in any city.
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #100
101. And the person doing the rear ending would be at fault.
Sometimes it sucks to obey the law. I once stopped for someone in a crosswalk - hell, she was 5 feet into the road and the crosswalk went across the equivalent of only one lane, so she was nearly halfway across. The person behind me didn't even slow down before hitting me, and they were going well within the limits of being able to stop in time.

Was I wrong to stop? I could see what was going to happen, but there was literally nowhere to go but into the pedestrian. As much as it sucked, my vehicle was rear ended.

Stopping at a yellow light is the same sort of thing. I know we all know the traffic laws- like the one that says if you follow too closely and hit someone you'll end up with the ticket, regardless of why you slammed into him/her. Same thing goes for clearing a green light -if you can't make it through the intersection on time, there isn't really a defense against not stopping.

Funny side story- I had that car up for sale at the time I was rear ended. The guy who rear ended me bought it from me a few weeks later, mostly because it survived the accident far better than his vehicle. Or maybe he just felt guilty.

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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #101
111. But I'm the one stuck with the back problem. nt
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
119. I thought the rule was that if you enter on the yellow then you are good
It's when you enter the intersection that counts.

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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #119
129. If you enter on the green, you're good.
According to our state's drivers manual, the yellow arrow means to stop.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #129
145. Maybe it depends on the state
I remember in California the rule was you were OK if you entered on the yellow. But maybe that was an informal drivers' rule. The intersections in Southern Cal. had a second or two all red to cover it (during which you could make a left turn if you had already entered the intersection to wait - often no way to ever make a left turn if it didn't work that way - for some reason they were against left turn arrows).
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #145
149. I think it is an informal rule.
And I think most police officers would allow it. But a red light camera wouldn't. I'm guessing people are a bit surprised when they find out what the state's admin rules really say.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #129
187. OK to enter on yellow in IL
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. You'd rather...
a police officer saw you run the red light and gave you a ticket personally?

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hey.
Don't run red lights.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
83. Sounds like good advice to me
LOL
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lgn19087 Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. So let me get this straight
You ran a red light, and you feel your rights were infringed because you got caught? I've gotten tickets before. Take it like a man/woman and pay the friggin ticket. If you want to challenge it, challenge it, but don't come on to a public message board and complain about police state because you got a ticket for running a red light.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lgn19087 Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Excellent
Because I call you on your whining and complaining about having to pay a traffic ticket that by all indications you deserved, I must now go "vote repug". Because, of course, anyone who would dare call you on your illegal driving practices MUST be a republican. Thousands of people every year pay their tickets -many of whom are in fact innocent- without complaining...myself included. You should think about joining our ranks.

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
179. "Thousands of people every year pay their tickets -many of whom are...
...in fact innocent- without complaining...myself included."

That's a good sheep, now go chew your cud until the next shearing. After all, we need you to keep silent and do as you are told until we are through with you. :eyes:
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. UM, I think the poster is saying he is the victim of a short yellow light.
Who the fuck are you to tell him what he can say on DU?
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Reckon Donating Member (729 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
35. I agree with blues90..
It's total bullshit. People should stand up and speak out anytime something is unjust.

lgn, you can stop your whinning and let bullshit walk on you if you like.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. How is a traffic ticket for running a light unjust?
Just curious. And, Ign wasn't whining, just expressing an opinion -- like you.

So, maybe you should stop your whining, too. Wah-Wah-Wah.
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Reckon Donating Member (729 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Read..
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 09:49 PM by Reckon
I told Ign to not whine and pay a bullshit ticket if he wants to. That's his right. But don't try and take away someone else's Right to challenge something they feel is unjust. It's a part of our Bill of Rights.

I know they sell remote traffic light changers and they are being used to write people tickets. In NY they were actually caught doing so. It's wrong!
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #42
115. What are remote traffic light changers?
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. I had a judge explain, in so many words, that they can't reduce fines
even for "questionable" tickets -- short of the picture being someone else behind the wheel -- because their "contract" with the providers of the traffic cameras won't let them. In other words, they need the fines to pay for the cameras! So it's a self-perpetuating loop...
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. You are right
This is what she said about the fines . She looked a my photo but a much lager one from what i gather because she described the car in front of me , this is not in the mailer ticket photo I got . she said on a 35 mph speed zone as this street has the yellow was to be 3.9 seconds . I timed that light a dozen times and i could not get past 1.7 seconds but to prove this there is no way because it's set in their book , they offer nothing as proof for you to offer , nothing . Since that day i have seen many people turn left at this same light stuck there . there were at least 30 people with tickets for the same light i got mine at . here in LA if you don't turn left on tellow you will either be there forever or someone will get out and murder you . THEY know this .
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #15
60. reminds me of Captain Kirk's court martial
His lawyer had a rant on how Kirk should get to face his accuser, and the accuser in his case, was a computer!!

One thing about yellow lights that I think is odd. Many times I stop for yellows and have to slam to a stop and think 'I should have kept going" many other times I go through very stale yellows and think "I should have stopped" but in alot of those cases there is a car about two car lengths behind me that also goes through it, like they think they can carry through on my wake or something. It makes me wonder, because if I should have stopped, and I admit that, they DEFINITELY should have stopped.
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meisje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. Wah Wah!!!!!!!!!! I ran a red light and got caught
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
89. the yellow light was timed short, making it impossible to pass
without the camera going off, timed at 1.7 secs by the poster who was told by the judge that it was supposed to be 3.9secs

But the poster has no recourse to prove that other than spending even more money. Many of these cameras around the country were found to have been used fraudulently. You'd think that would concern folks, but some here would rather ridicule this poster than offer anything helpful in response.

I'd like to know what recourse we have to this technology.
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Sapere aude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. I used to be against the cameras until the red light runners became so
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 07:34 PM by Sapere aude
numerous. I'm glad they get some attention from the law. It is very dangerous to go on a green light anymore. Yellow means slow down the light will turn red. It doesn't mean hurry up and try to beat the red light.

No sympathy from me. Next time slow down and prepare to stop on a yellow light. Then you won't have to pay a fine and and the other peoples lives won't be put at risk.

I ride a motorcycle most of the time to save gas. When I see the light turn yellow I come to a stop but I am so afraid the guy behind me wants to beat the light and will rear end me. I slow down but I have one eye on the car or truck behind me. People don't give a shit about the traffic laws anymore. It is all about "me and my life"!
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. yes
and i learned that the hard way 33 years ago when i tried to beat the yellow light and the person making the left turn in front of me in the opposite direction attempted to do the same. forehead meet windshield. i haven't had an accident since.

nuff said.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
36. Thank you
It is very dangerous to go on a green light anymore. Yellow means slow down the light will turn red. It doesn't mean hurry up and try to beat the red light.

I thought I was the only person who understood this concept.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. I always pause a second before starting across at a green light
And, I notice plenty of other people doing it, too... how sad is that?
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Dervill Crow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. After a light turns green, look both ways.
People from other states laugh at Portlanders who follow this rule, but it's saved me from a crash more than once.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #46
77. Me too
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #46
105. Yeah, pausing saved my vehicle (and maybe my life)
a few weeks ago. I was turning left from 52nd onto Woodstock and had the green arrow. I looked both ways, and from my right a car came barreling through the stop light. He was going far faster than the speed limit on Woodstock. He was also being followed by 4 Portland police cars. Had I not paused to look, the car would've been toast, and perhaps a kid or two and me.

Think he bit the dust down by the golf course. I had to make a stop along Woodstock for some groceries and by the time I headed down the hill by Reed College, the police had the road blocked at the intersection by the golf course.
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TheFriedPiper Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #39
97. It's VERY sad and it causes traffic backups
those extra seconds usually mean at least one less car makes it through the intersection.

Multiply that by 10000 idiots sitting at a green light and you have serious traffic problems.


My advice is: if you are too scared or unskilled to drive well, USE OTHER MEANS OF TRANSPORTATION!!!


Why should skilled drivers be required to slow down to the skill level of the lowest common denominator?


We need more driving training. High speed driving training and car handling.

I'm tired of slowing down for people that think more slowly than I.












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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #97
117. I'm not the one that needs any training
Those of us sitting at green lights aren't the idiots -- wtf do you think you have a right to say that? The IDIOTS are the idiots driv9ing fast to speed through the light, thus running the light, thus making US make sure the coast is clear. You advocated the OP doing just that. THAT'S the behavior we're talking about. It is dangerous, illegal, and selfish as hell.

I'm not scared or unskilled to drive, I don't think slowly when I driv e -- if I did, I would have been dead along time ago, I'm 41 and have never ever had a parking ticket, let alone a moving violation. Maybe YOU'RE the one who needs some driving skills and common sense banged into your head. Maybe YOU'RE the one who needs to learn to think quicker when driving -- just saying "Floor it -- must beat light" isn't thinking.

Geez.... talk about being part of the problem and not the solution -- and, the scary thing? YOU think you're right.
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TheFriedPiper Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #117
158. I look before I go, don't ASSume
I am a professionally trained driver with very very very good driving skills. It really isn't rocket science.

Why most people don't learn how to drive I don't know, but when people fuck up traffic due to their own lack of skill, it is a problem.


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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #39
128. Sad, but a good idea
A real tragedy happened here, because some jerk tried to speed through a yellow--which became red. The principal of a grade school was heading back to his school after an administrator's meeting at the middle school across town. He came to the busy intersection where his school is located. With a hundred or so kids on the playground watching, he started across the intersection on a green. A grain truck that was trying to catch the yellow hit him broadside and killed him instantly. Some of the kids said he had just waved to them. They were traumatized.

All because someone wouldn't slow down for a yellow light.

But there are too many jerks like that truck driver. So, I always pause.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #36
61. but what does green mean?
when you are zipping down the road at 50, 60 mph going towards a stale green it can suddenly turn yellow so I really hate stale greens. Do you slam on the brakes as soon as you see yellow, or can you make it? The answer is not so much the cameras, but longer yellows and delays between the east-west red and the north-south green and vice versa.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #36
91. Anybody remember the movie Starman W/ Jeff Bridges?
He told Karen Allen that he knew how to drive. When light is green go fast. When light is yellow, go faster.

I find myself being 1st at the light a hell of a lot of times. My wife is afraid that i'm going to get ass ended.
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TheFriedPiper Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #91
104. Driving faster would have saved this ticket
The OP SHOULD have been ticketed for driving 5mph!!!!


Driving that slow is DANGEROUS to people driving the speed limit.




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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #104
118. Give me a freaking break
Yeah, just what we need -- more people not thinking and just slamming a foot on the gas.
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TheFriedPiper Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #118
163. so you think 5mph in a 35mph is not dangerous?
stay to the right please!

no further!

further still!


ok, good, now stay parked there until you learn how to drive!



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Medium Baby Jesus Donating Member (592 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #118
219. How dare you question him!
He is a VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY good driver!!!1!!1
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #104
125. That's a whole nuther bitch
People driving to slow in fast lanes. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
37. Great post -- I'm with you 100% on every word
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
47. I used to be against red-light cameras, too...
...until this crazy ***** ran a red on a left turn and totaled the front end of my Prelude as I was coming off the green.

I was lucky my injuries were just a lot of muscle pain for a couple of weeks. My car was not so lucky.

Aside to the OP: You never did say: Are you guilty of running a red? If so, then you're lucky you got away with a $350 ticket, and not a corpse in your front seat. Take it like a man/woman, pay the goddamn ticket, and take a relatively inexpensive lesson to heart.

As I'm fond of saying: Next time, the life you save may be mine.
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Nobody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
239. The worst offenders in my city are the cops
When the photo ticket stoplights were first put up, they were turned on and notices sent to people's homes who got caught. The first month was just a warning notice, no fine. After that, tickets with fines were sent.

During that first month, most of the offenders were cops.

I don't like enforcement by photo. There are several reasons why the person the car is registered to might not be the one driving the car and running the light. The next example is one that actually happened but instead of a photo, it was a neighbor that spotted the plates.

Roommate's parked vehicle got smashed into by a drunk driver. A helpful neighbor got the plate number. Roommate reported the accident. Neighbor thought drunk by way of erratic driving. Cops ran the plates and found them to belong to X. Cops called X and X said he sold the car to Y. Cops called Y. Y said that he bought the car from X, didn't get a chance to transfer the title. Car was stolen when he popped in to grab something quickly, leaving the keys in the ignition.

(By the way, in Minneapolis it's illegal to be stupid enough to leave keys in the ignition when you're not in the car. Tell that to the hundreds of people who warm up their cars in the winter and are in the house waiting. I believe Y got fined for doing this.)

What did Roommate propose to do? Sue X for damages. Why X and not Z who stole the car and rammed the vehicle? Because X is still the legal owner of the car, and no one knows who Z is. Fortunately Roommate didn't do this. I thought that was unfair to X who had no control over Y not having transferred the title or Z stealing the car that now belonged to Y. The only person suffering no repercussions is Z, the car thief and destructive drunk driver.
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tandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. People have been killed by drivers running red lights.
If you drive the appropriate speed and pay attention, you should be able to either stop your car in time or make it through a yellow light BEFORE it turns red. These laws are there to save lives.



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lgn19087 Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Exactly
A good friend of mine was witness to a fatal accident where someone tried to run a short yellow light. Believe it or not, it's not part of the Repug's grand plan.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
180. And people have been killed stopping at yellow lights. What's
your point?
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mccoyn Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #180
201. The people stopping at yellow lights are at least obeying the law.
Its a little easier to predict what someone is going to do if they arn't making up their own rules.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #201
203. They're just as dead, if you asked them I'm sure they'd tell you they wish
they'd gone through.

It's rather like the idiots that talk about the great lawsuits they win, a settlement is poor compensation for living years with a disability, and/or in constant pain, or without being able to do what it is you love.
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mccoyn Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #203
207. Its the same issue.
Whether someone dies because one person broke the law and ran a red light or because another person broke the law and didn't stop when the person in front stopped its still a case of one person making up their own rules that leads to death. We shouldn't excuse one because of the other, people still die.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #207
211. I don't think anybody has suggested excusing anything, The issue is the
alleged malfunction of an un-American system designed to circumvent the legal requirements of the American justice system.

I also don't believe it is a case of people making up their own rules, it is a mistake that can lead to an accident. Nobody gets into an accident on purpose except insurance scammers, the price is just too high.
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tandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #180
208. Great. Lets just all ignore any yellow/red lights if it doesn't matter
anyway. What's your point?
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #208
210. My point is that there is a reason they are called accidents, and no
matter how many restrictions and penalties you place on people, they will still happen. Abridging individual rights won't stop people from dying in traffic accidents, and the red-light cameras don't reduce the number of incidents at all. So what is their real purpose?

Of course if you want to eliminate the driver altogether that would be a potential solution, but I'm pretty sure most people would have strong objections to that, good idea though it may be.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #180
225. every time I've run a *nearly* red light
I just happen to glance in my rearview and there's almost always someone on my ass (usually an SUV, and I have a tiny coupe). I think when it comes to light running etiquette its MUCH better to run a yellow light if you have not had time to check rear view and make sure someone is not tailgating you.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
16. You got a nudge and reminder of what a nightmare the courts
and justice system is. Best to avoid the whole thing at all costs. Slowing down & stopping at yellow
lights & driving the speed limit at all times will reduce your exposure to all that bullshit to practically nothing, & you will probably be safer too.
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TheFriedPiper Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #16
99. Slow DOES NOT EQUAL SAFE
If you drive slower than the traffic around you then YOU are the problem.

SPEED UP PEOPLE!!!!! LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO SIT BEHIND YOU IN TRAFFIC!


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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #99
120. Then ride your bike or take a bus
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 11:44 AM by LostinVA
Traffic laws are there for a reason: to protect us from drivers like yourself who think that driving through town is equivalent to driving on the Intrastate. Guess what, bucko? It isn't. If you can't handle it, and can't open laws that'll keep unsafe drivers from killing other people, turn off the damn car and walk. Driving isn't a right. If you don't want to earn the privilege, then leave the road clear for those of us who respect other people.

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #120
152. Driving at walking pace will impede other drivers
5mph is too slow to go across an intersection.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
17. I live near a busy intersection and I'm amazed
at how often people run the red. They put other drivers' lives at risk, not to mention the many times I cross at that light. People who run red lights need to be punished. If it takes a camera to do it, then that's fine by me.

I'm so tired of people thinking the law applies to everyone but them.

Pay the fine, and drive like a decent person.
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LifeDuringWartime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
197. Boston
Being a frequent pedestrian in Boston, I usually see at least half a dozen people run red lights every day. Sometime's it's hard to get a sense if the vehicle approaching the intersection is going to stop, even though the cross-walk light has already changed. If I'm walking by myself, I don't usually have problems. If I'm with a group, I feel like I have to babysit because it seems like nobody pays attention to the cars.
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. Sounds like a pebcac error, they're fairly common.
(sometimes spelled pebcak)
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
48. LOL!
You are a wonk! :thumbsup:
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #19
51. in this case, maybe not pebcac, but
PEBWAC
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
63. sorta looks like you jump right to rule #12
without any preliminaries.

Strike hard, strike first, no mercy!
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. LOL nt
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RogueBandit Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
20. You have my sympathy.
I have a real problem with the traffic cameras. First, where is the accuser? You are supposed to be able to face your accuser, aren't you? Or is that a myth from my childhood?

Mostly though I oppose the inability of Judges to actually make judgements. All they do anymore is make a mockery of fairness and balance by reading a prescription just like doctors do anymore. Yeah, I know that wasn't very grammatical but I'm ranting so what can I say?

If someone really runs a red light then I say let them have their day in court. If someone seems to have run a yellow light they better get more than their day in court...it is a gray area...where's the judges leeway?

But the real problem with traffic cameras is that they can follow a person around town. The cameras are high quality now, they can read faces and those faces can be compared.

In my town they are putting a fiber optic ring around town just for those cameras, at least that's what they say. I'm sure it's Homeland Security dollars and they plan on doing a lot more than they say. On top of that the fiber optic ring is only for the government...no internet access is planned so we're stuck with cable and dsl.

Rant, rant, rant...sympathy...rant, rant, rant...sympathy.

John
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Sapere aude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. In your town are you warned there is a camera at that intersection?
I remember seeing signs telling people that a certain intersection has a camera. That means the government putting up the camera is your accuser. Now if you know there is a camera and you drive through a red light you go to court or pay your fine. You could pay attention to the yellow light, the sign warning you of a camera and stop at the intersection. Of course you wouldn't have anything to rant about then.


Check this out

http://www.answers.com/topic/traffic-light

In most countries there is also a yellow (or amber) light, which when on and not flashing means stop if able to do so safely.
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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. Here in AZ, I have never seen a sign to that effect.
Apparently, everyone must assume that every signal has a camera as there are no signs anywhere.

Big Brother IS watching you!
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #20
69. what is this?
Sympathy on DU? That and the low post count make ya an obvious troll :sarcasm: I was gonna say welcome to DU, but I see you have been here almost 9 months. Plus this would be a perfect place for my Star Trek anecdote (that I already posted after you made the same point).

You should post more often :yourock:
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
21. People assume that those cameras
are set up by the city but here in CA those cameras are set up by a private for profit company so can you really count on them being accurate(??) I doubt it (they want to make a profit). That being said you can't fight city hall so it's best to save yourself the agony and just pay the damn thing.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. That's what I was told
people told me looking at the photo i had to fight it , you are in the right so i took their advice and really found out the hard way that there is no way to fight these tickets because nothing you have is proof . They have got you right or WRONG .
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
22. What is so difficult to understand
I am paying the damn ticket. On their camera I was well past the cross walk whne the light changed to yellow going 5 mph , the yellow light was 1.7 seconds when I timed it . then the change to red at 5 mph across a wide 4 lane intersection it caught me on red past half over the cross walk on the other side .

I really thought i did not need to go into such great detail , apparently most people replying don't have these cameras to challenge . If I was caught before the crosswalk on the side I was on then yes I should get the ticket but I don't run red lights , pretty simple and if a real live cop were there then in this incident i would not have been ticketed , real simple , you are fighting a machine someone everyone should trust set all up just right ,well sorry , I don't have that uch faith in things of this nature and wiil do anything I can and have since then to avoid all traffic lights as much as humanly possible , since this happened once it coud happen again under the same circumstances .

For these who feel this is whining sorry you are way off base , wait until the camera lights infect your life . I am well aware of how to avoid accidents and the harm and damage that can result from them . I have not had one accident in my life because I keep my eyes open and don't play with cell phones or radio knobs while driving . I don;t want to be injured either or need to buy another car .
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Here's the thing...
if any part of your car is in the intersection when the light turns red, you've ran the red light.

You screwed up. You should be able to admit that. You should pay the fine without complaint. You shouldn't be whining about how horrible the government is for making you obey traffic laws. You shouldn't be talking about how wonderful a driver you are. And you shouldn't be rude to other DUers that are pointing this out.
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. So, are you saying the traffic lights can never be deffective?...
.....Or not timed correctly?

If the light is defective or timed wrong, how many people will bother to fight it? How many people will receive tickets they didn't deserve before the city repairs the light(if ever). 500? 100? Will the city go back and refund everyone who received a ticket they didn't deserve? I doubt it.

My problem with these cameras is they are being put up as a revenue generation system. At least that's what's going on in Chicago, where I live. Da Mayor isn't even trying to hide the fact that they are putting them up because the city needs money. Our mayor wants to turn Chicago residents in to walking fine-bots.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. No.
I'm saying traffic lights/cameras are less likely to be defective than the OP.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
53. You must live in a low traffic area then
And look back through the posts , I start off with what happened and describe my thoughts , did I invite or provoke rudeness ? No I did not , why is it that if someone expresses their thought's there are always people that feel inclined to jump in with insane and often rude comments ? If I came across a topic or post that does not really invite my rude comments I just move onto a topic I feel I may have a discussion about in a civil open minded manner . This is called communication something we lack much of in society today also it is one major reason this country is so divided and screwed up .
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #53
127. Fortunately, yes.
However, when I am in high traffic areas, I don't run red light.

As for rudeness, you're the one who told somebody else to "go vote repug" when they criticized you for running a red light. So I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #24
65. are we reading the same thread?
clearly I missed his post that got deleted, but it looks to me like far more DUers are being rude to the OP.

Maybe you should stop whining about OPers who are rude or whining. (telling somebody to stop whining is pretty rude IMO and logically isn't your complaint about his/her whining, also whining?)

This thread is also the first time I have heard that definition of running a red light. I figure if my car is in the intersection when the light is still yellow then I am good. The exception being very stale yellows. If a light does not have a flashing "don't walk" sign then a driver really has no way of knowing when the light will turn yellow.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #24
103. Judgmental, are we? nt
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Sapere aude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Do I understand you correctly? You entered a intersection on the green
light. While you were in the intersection the light turned yellow for 1.7 seconds and then turned red before you got out of the intersection while you were driving 5 MPH. If so I was wondering why you were going 5MPH, was there a lot of traffic in front of you to slow you down? if this is what happened then you could not avoid what happened to you and I am out of line.
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lgn19087 Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. "Wait until the camera lights infect your life"
There are a lot of things that could infect my life...SARS, the Plague, Terra Terra Terra, the list goes on...

but cameras at traffic lights put in place to prevent people from doing actions that sometimes cost lives isn't one of them.

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name not needed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #22
59. Of course it's not whining
whine Pronunciation Key (hwn, wn)
v. whined, whining, whines
v. intr.

1. To utter a plaintive, high-pitched, protracted sound, as in pain, fear, supplication, or complaint.
2. To complain or protest in a childish fashion.
3. To produce a sustained noise of relatively high pitch: jet engines whining.

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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #22
122. Have you seen those license plate lenses that distort the plate?
You can read the plate clearly when facing it direct, but not at angles. Some states they are illegal. A friend of mine has one on his car. It's easier to just stop on yellow.
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LifeDuringWartime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
198. Am I understanding this correctly?
You entered an intersection on a yellow light at 5 MPH?

:wtf:
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
27. Can you say revenue enhancement?
I knew you could. You are simply the victim of a system that is designed (with a very short yellow) to entrap people and, hence, earn more money for the city in which this occurred. These cameras are unfair because there is no way to dispute it, even though they may well be innaccurate.
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
28. Those devices are very controversial
The company that installs the equipment does so for free with the agreement that they get to split the revenue from the tickets the device generates. It turns out that the lights controlled by the speed radar camera only stayed yellow for four seconds, unlike the other yellow lights that lasted for five seconds. I believe there was a court case that forced the company and offending communities to return a lot of the money that this Gestapo machine generated. I don't have a link, but this is a new story and it should be available with a simple Google search.
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meldroc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #28
146. Yep, I've seen this story too.
The company's that install red-light and speed cameras are playing games to increase revenue, and they've been busted for it on a few occasions.

What I would do if I wanted to fight city hall, is I'd go out to that intersection with a video camera, and videotape the light in question, so there's no controversy on the exact duration with the yellow. It'd be interesting if the light was programmed so 3 times out of 4, it'd have a normal 5 second yellow, but 1 time out of 4, it had a 1.5 second yellow, and snapped pictures mercilessly.
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hpot Donating Member (359 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
31. Buy this book
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 08:09 PM by hpot
Be prepared if you ever decide to fight a ticket in the future. This book is very informative and applicable to other states. Last time I received a speeding ticket (Florida) the officer did not show up at court and it was dismissed. - He probably didn't want to bother with all the paperwork I requested under discovery. :evilgrin:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1413301878/sr=8-1/qid=...

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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #31
235. Unfortunately, in order for most cities to use these devices
they have to change the laws so the ticket is the legal equivalent of a parking ticket - the violation belongs to the owner of the car and no officer is required to attend a court hearing - all they have to do is establish that the vehicle was in violation of the law (photo of car in intersection with red light/photo of car with reading from speed monitor). The minimal good news is that even when the devices are used to enforce speeding laws no points are assessed against the vehicle owner's license (since they don't have to/can't prove it was the owner driving - I got one of these wonderful tickets for speeding when someone else was driving the car registered to me).

Lots of challenges are being raised - dunno where they will end up. In our neck of the woods (NE Ohio) they are about 5 weeks behind in mailing these tickets, so at $125 a pop you could rack up over $6000 in fines related to an intersection you pass twice daily before you realize you've been shot. Heck of a deterrent 5 weeks after the act and for the five weeks thereafter while you wait to see how bad the damage is - traffic is nice and slow through the one intersection monitored by the camera - but in the mean time, quite a revenue generator!

Personally, if the point is deterrence of speeding/red light violations, there are more effective means (like timing the lights so you can actually make it through the main drag without having to stop at red lights when you are going the speed limit - and so that you have to stop at reds if you are speeding.)
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
33. I live in Hollywood, too. It's very simple:
If there's a camera at an intersection, do not, under any circumstances, try to turn on yellow. I do not understand why this is difficult for some people.

The red light cameras are very easy to spot; when I pull into a left turn lane, the first thing I do is look for one of the cameras. If I see one, I stop on yellow. Period. I won't even pull into the intersection to wait if there's a red light camera there.

Those of you not from LA might want to know about a local "custom" for turning left at intersections (and, fortunately, I was tipped off to this by a friend before I moved here, who warned me not to jump right out as soon as the light turns green). It's general practice that 2-3 cars make their left on yellow--often even after the light has turned red. Everybody is, for the most part, very cool about it, and it actually HELPS with traffic flow. The red light cameras have put a real damper on that, and you've got to keep your eyes peeled for them before accepting your fellow drivers' hospitality about getting through that left turn.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #33
54. Exactly
If you toss out the long time left turn on yellow you will never make the turn since the next light will be the same thing all over again and there you sit until someone gets out in the car behind and moves you . Now if LA would place the loooooooong over due left turn arrows then we would not have a problem and would save a great deal of fuel and time and fenders but no , what do they provide , red light cameras and place you on edge as a sitting duck for the money train and a rape of a ticket for never endangering a soul .
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. If you know turning left will be a problem there, try making 3 rights.
We've got an intersection near where I live that sounds similar. It's technically legal to turn left, but a real pain in traffic, so I just drive up one more block, hang a right, repeat, repeat, and get where I'm going just fine without obstructing traffic or running any red lights.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #54
62. But you're not a "sitting duck," and that was my point.
Those red light cameras are VERY easy to spot--the big wooden boxes, painted blue or beige, with the hole cut out for the camera lens. If you see one of those at your intersection, simply don't take a chance of turning on yellow.

You can see the cameras. Don't try to make the turn unless you can do it on green. It's that simple.
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mccoyn Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #33
124. That would be legal in Michigan.
At least up to a point. We can drive into the intersection to wait for the opposing traffic to clear. If it hasn't cleared by the time the light turns red we can make the left turn to clear the intersection. The crossroads traffic has to wait.

What this amounts to in busy intersections is that when the oncoming traffic stops at the yellow light a few people make the left turn knowing that the last one, who gets caught in the red isn't actually breaking the law.

Until a week ago I thought this was the law around the country, but we happened to be talking about it at work and it sounds like it isn't.
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #124
154. I got one in Redford for proceeding on a red (that was actually yellow)
What I really did was keep a Redford cop from getting back to the station while his bag of sliders was still hot. He had to wait an extra 3 seconds to turn out of the White Castle parking lot.

I had a witness that I couldn't use for professional reasons, or I would have taken it to court. He gave me a no-points ticket, so I just paid it.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
34. I'm sick of almost getting hit by red light runners or drivers wanting
to beat the light. Some people get stuck in the intersection, but when I watch them, guess what? 99% of them are stuck because they moved into the intersection on a yellow light. If the light isn't green, I stop. I don't give a damn when people honk behind me -- I would have been cutting it close, but those tools would have run a red light.

I love the stoplight cameras -- they have decreased intersection accidents by a huge amount in our area.
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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. So, you like Big Brother?
There is no accuser who has to face you in court.

Next, you'll be saying it's ok for the gov't to listen in on phone conversations. Basically, it's the same thing...faceless accusers.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #44
78. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
40. I'm perplexed
are you saying you had a stop-watch and a camera *while* you were going through a stop-light?

did i misunderstand, because it seems odd.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
41. bummer
The cops gotta shake you down somehow, or how else are you gonna know about war
unless we take some out on you.

You committed no crime, cameras are not human eyes, and not a "witness", not
appropriate. They can't take in to account mitigating circumstances like
left turning behind a slow-waiter.

The cops live to fuck people. Probably you don't have a rich car, and
were not dressed in a suit... they like to fuck with people who can't afford
to fight back. A little investment in a plot of ground in rural canada might
just be a nice camping spot if the shit goes down...
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
227. I heard about those too.
Those red-light cameras that are specially designed to target only cars with blue book values of less than $3,500. Truly diabolical.
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
45. Having been broadsided by a red light runner, I'm all for them.
Red light cameras, that is, not red light runners...

It sounds like an expensive lesson, plase be more careful in the future.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
49. Well, Maybe You'll Like My Idea Then.
I've tried to pitch it to townships before without success, but I've heard many people complain throughout my life about not knowing how long the yellow is or when they should or shouldn't slam on their brakes to stop or if they are too close to the intersection to have stopping considered an option.

My idea is that for every traffic light there should be a yellow line across the lane at the appropriate distance away from the light based on the speed limit of the road and the duration of the yellow. This would be a line that indicates if you are driving the speed limit, based on the length of the light, that if you are at or before the line you have time to and must stop, but if you are past the line than at the speed of the road you would have sufficient time to cross safely prior to changing to red.

I always figured this timing line would be a real easy way for someone to know whether they were making a decision to go based on innocence or go based on knowing they should stop but trying to beat it.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #49
95. That sounds like a reasonable idea
though you have to decide what to do about changed stopping distances in the wet, etc. From what I can gather from the OP's later posts, it wouldn't have actually made a difference in this case, because he had already entered the junction when the light turned yellow, but has the habit of crossing junctions at 5mph in case someone does something unexpected. At the 3.9 seconds he says the judge said a yellow light should last in a 35mph zone, that means he'd cover 28.6 feet - less than the width of most junctions, I'd say.

Having done some further calculations which I won't bore people with, I have shown, to myself at least, that a speed of under 13mph won't get you across a junction of width 50 feet with a 4 second yellow light, even if you don't have the space to stop before the junction.

So the moral of the story is (not aimed at you, OMC, but at everyone, especially the OP):

If you approach and cross traffic lights that are in a 35mpg zone, at less than 13mph, you will get caught in the junction. You should aim to travel at least that fast when the traffic allows.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #49
113. Yellows could have a countdown
This is a newer innovation with pedestrian walk signals. Once the sign changes from "Walk" to flashing "Don't Walk" a countdown timer is displayed so that pedestrians caught in the crosswalk know whether they need to run or turn back in order to clear the intersection before the solid "Don't Walk" sign appears and traffic resumes.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
50. I want to address everyone here however
There is too much and it's not so black and white .

Look let me try at least to explain in as civil of a manner as I can . I am not here to boast about my good driving record however due to the fact that a persona word is no longer any good in court and you are forced to deal with a machine as the soul evidence and a machine that I have absolutely no possible way to relate to .

It then becomes cut and dried . I certainly stop before a light becomes red . Given this intersection at any given time and since I live 5 blocks from this intersection I go through it hundreds of time per year . I am familar with the traffic and the way this intersection is abused . This camera is only used for the traffic going north and south , east and west are not set up with a camera . Once you enter any intersection you naturally look at the light before you reach it , now your focus is on the cars who attempt to make a right on red in front of you and the people at the crosswalk , if the light is green when as in this case I was past the crosswalk and the light was green . i was going 5 mph because always without fail someone grabs the opportunity to make that mad right on red and there goes your foot on the brake meanwhile the yellow does it's 1.8 second flicker and the camera has got you on the red . This is it , I did not run the light , i was not in a rush but I was caught before I made it throught the entire intersection . To make matters worse the east /west traffic always without fail crowd the intersection and their light goes red and the north /south is green and we go no where . This is common at this crossing .

Add to this the next light a block north also has a camera only for north / south . the next block south has one for only and oddly the east west traffic . All of these intersections and streets are bordered by stores a plenty . all fairly new bringing in many many more cars . they were not long ago single shops stores now they are large multi=level with their own huge driveways . Yet one of these intersections has a left turn arrow .

As far as controlling or preventing accidents here , the least and very rare are accidents at intersections , most are caused by lane changes or rear end collisions or someone turning out onto a main street without enough time to make it or someone slamming on the brakes to make a turn into one of the super store abominations all jambed into an area with not the road to allow for all the additional traffic .

There are more accidents on the corner I live without lights but instead stop signs and speeding fools who feel it is cool to fly down the side streets making their way to work in one big hurry .

So these cameras do nothing to prevent a thing , they are an unbeatable way to generate funds without any effort involved . I have yet to see speeding lane changers on the freeway get a ticket where the real bad accidents accure . I have seen all sorts of traffic law breaking and there is nothing in place to prevent this so give me a break about saving lives at intersections with cameras as a deterent . You can get rear ended real damn quick slamming on your brakes to prevent a camera ticket simply because you now know you can get nabbed for not really running red light . If anything will cause an injury this mindset of the fear of $350 certainly will and now this is what I have to deal with .

There will always be traffic accidents and I won't call them accidents , most are lack of paying attention of out right wreakless diving or today someone so intent on a cell phone call they forget they are going 75 mph . I have come real close to being rear ended trying to play the light to be safe from a ticket many times since I got this damn ticket but when a light is green and I am past the crosswalk I have not run the red light period . Look at the rules of the road books .

For some here to say I am whining or deserve what I got because of wreakless driven , I say to you , you do not have one single idea of what you are talking about .
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. what are you, sixteen?
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #50
55. Wreakless divers suck.
They should dive to inflict vengeance upon the waters instead :think:

Um, what were we talking about again? :silly:
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #50
66. you just blew your whole argument.
you drive the intersection hundreds of times a year, but until you got caught, you failed to notice the short yellow?

just because you were past the crosswalk means nothing, you don't have all the time in the world to clear the intersection at your leisure. the law is clear, you do not enter the intersection unless you have ample time to clear the intersection. many of us bend the rules as you appear to have done, and sometimes we pay the price. is it fair? no. life ain't fair. what do you want, the entire membership of DU to go on a crusade against traffic cameras while much greater issues need our attention? as much as your situation sucks, it's really not of national concern. we've got a war to stop, we've got a president to impeach, we've got illegal warrantless spying to stop. sorry, but i don't think they are using traffic cameras to weed out political dissidents.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. yet so many on DU
seem to have time to go on a mini-crusade against the OP. Must take them away from their JonBenet threads.
Yet, traffic fines are on of the biggest screw jobs on working people. Is it equal justice for me and Bill Gates to pay a $300 fine? Yet it becomes revenue for local governments as they lose other revenue because of Bush's tax cuts for Bill Gates. It sounds like a scam and an injustice to me, but I fought my seat belt tickets and have more contempt for traffic court "justice".
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #68
75. What do you want, a sliding scale?
You should pay less than Bill Gates for running a red and endangering the lives of everyone else on the road?

Yeah, it is equal justice for you and Bill Gates to pay a $300 fine for the same infraction. You want it any other way? I sure don't. In this case, the rule and the consequence are the same for everyone.

You do have the nugget of an idea nobody's yet mentioned to the OP: Don't like the system? FIGHT IT. Hit up your city council/county supervisors/state legislators to get a law (that you think is unjust) changed. But if you don't fight to change it, then you can't complain about it when it catches you.

There is such a thing as believing in and abiding by the spirit of the law, whether or not you agree with that law. If you don't agree with it, then do something about it. But even if you fail to change it, you are nevertheless obligated to live by it.

Congrats on fighting your seat belt tickets -- whether or you won or not. That is exactly what I'm talking about: You did something about it.

Back to red-light cameras: If they deter just one person from killing me or one of my loved ones, so be it.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #75
139. hmm, have to respond to this
For many people $300 is a lot of money - perhaps even impossible to come by. If a person is unable to pay the ticket and they will potentially lose their car and/or license - causing all sorts of further problems. It might take months (or longer) to get over the setback. Oh, and if they *can't* pay it - it will cost even MORE (that makes sense, not.)

If you are Bill Gates you've made $300 in a nanosecond so the ticket is a complete non-issue in your life.

The *effect* of the ticket is in-equal justice. I think people should at least be able to do some community service or something if they are unable to pay.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #139
206. I have a remedy for this
Don't run red lights. No matter what your income level.
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #139
209. I can't argue with that...
...but (you knew there's be a "but") it would be equally unjust to fine Gates more, simply because he has more, or to fine Joe Blow less, because he has less, for the same infraction. That would definitely amount to penalizing the rich simply for being rich.

My point (which I'm sure you get, but I'll say it anyway) is that, in this case at least, the rule and the penalty are the same for everyone.

Yes, of course, Gates or anyone else with money and/or connections might worm out of it -- but then we're getting into purely hypothetical territory. And no, the law does not treat everyone equally; rich, white people get away with murder (literally) all the time, Mel Gibson got out of jail time with a plea bargain, Limbaugh got off scot-free, etc., etc. But we're talking about a cut-and-dried moving violation, and, unless the courts have a secret cadre of Photoshoppers working on photos from red-light cameras, it's pretty difficult to deny that's your license plate, and your face, in the picture.

You're right: The effect of the ticket is inequal. In a perfect world, we could all work off our wrongs (or opt for driving school -- which is still available in many states, last I heard -- in lieu of a fine and points off your license). In the end, 'though, we're all subject to the same rules the moment we get behind the wheel.

And yes, I am a major hard-ass about the rules of the road. As much as I'd love to break the land speed record, and as much as I detest using a seatbelt, making full stops at stop signs, and using my turn indicator 100 feet in advance, I do what I'm supposed to anyway, because I should.

I understand that a lot of cops are jerks who just want to get their quotas filled before the end of the month -- but I also know that traffic law is not some completely arbitrary system set up solely to suck money out of us and make our lives miserable. Most traffic laws really do exist in order to keep us from killing ourselves or somebody else -- and if I break one of those laws, I would be just as deserving of a $300 ticket -- and I would be in a serious jam trying to come up with three C-notes myself.

But: I knew the rules when I got behind the wheel.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #209
217. okay, but why use money as the 'punishment' at all
How does paying $300 make someone a better driver? It just means that people like Bill Gates, to whom $300 is like a penny in your change jar, can ignore traffic laws if they want to. Perhaps insurance agencies should charge people with *higher* credit scores more money ;-)

Seriously, I wasn't suggesting that wealthy people should pay larger fines, but that there should be other options for people who can't afford the ticket. Like classes or community service. I have some real-life examples of things like a burned out tail light - not a driving hazard like running a red light, which escalated into lost licenses because of an inability to pay the ticket. Stuff like that is just class warfare imo.
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #217
236. It doesn't make anyone a better driver.
But, again, if it deters even one person from doing something incredibly risky and life-threatening, then so be it. We all know the potential consequences of taking risks behind the wheel -- but sometimes, the only thing that gets through to a person is a monetary loss.

I hear you re community service/classes -- I would prefer classes, say of the variety my generation was subjected to in high school driver's training; having to watch footage of real corpses, in real burned-out cars, that would give George Romero nightmares, did a lot to curb my teenage enthusiasm for taking my own life in my hands.
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Crabby Appleton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #75
223. Traffic fine based on income
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #66
116. If you would read you would see the light was green
not red when I was past the middle of the intersection , am I supposed to back up ? Once you are at the point I was you can't really see the light anymore . The yellow light is way to short and the point being if you entered on green it's yellow to red in 1.8 seconds so are you suggesting one should fly through the intersection at 55 in hopes of beating the red ? Maybe you need photo's to get the full picutre .
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #116
153. You say you were driving at 5mph
That is too slow - it'a a fast walking pace. If you drove at, say 15mph - a decent cycling speed - you'd be able to cross the intersection in time.
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don954 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #50
67. if you thought you were truly innocent of the charge
why didn't you request a Jury Trial? In every state Ive been in its still my right to do so... Then you can present evidence and let the 12 judge it.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #67
230. in traffic court? you don't have any right to a jury for that
i went to a friend who requested a trial, there was no jury, the same judge heard all of the cases that had already made up his mind anyway
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #50
110. So the choice is, get rear-ended or get a ticket.
Talk about being between the devil and the deep blue sea.

"You can get rear ended real damn quick slamming on your brakes to prevent a camera ticket simply because you now know you can get nabbed for not really running red light . "

Other thing regarding some of the posts here, the vast majority of drivers believe that the way they drive is perfect and everyone else should drive exactly as they do. :shrug:

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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #50
162. In NYC it's called 'blocking the box'
And it's a ticket plus 2 points if a cop sees you do it, camera or not. the issue in NYC is not so much accident prevention, but keeping the intersection clear of traffic to stop traffic jams when some idiot gets caught halfway across the intersection and blocks perpendicular traffic.
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
56. You have my deepest sympathy. And you are right about accidents
The state of VA apparently stopped red light cameras in some areas because rear-end accidents at intersections greatly increased.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #56
80. Which they shouldn't have done -- they rewarded the bad drivers
They wanted the driver in front of them to beat the light so they could run a red light. So, that makes at least TWO people running a light. I've almost had people smash into my back end for this reason. Screw them. If they hit me, they'll have their ass sued by my insurance company.

We have red light cameras, and they have changed one of the worst intersection in the WHOLE state to one of the safest.
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #80
200. Where is the worst intersection in VA?
I disagree with you, BTW. I was rear ended by a speeding twenty-something and spent a couple of years recovering. Let them pass me, go through the intersection and get hit.
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ghostsofgiants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
58. Okay, I don't care either way about your ticket...
My real issue here is you saying "an step." At first I thought it was a typo. But then you typed it again. The letter S is not a vowel. Please keep this in mind in the future.

</grammar police>
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Reckon Donating Member (729 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #58
70. You're "an" animal.. Ve vill be vatching U...... n/t
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #58
71. That's The Only Thing That Tripped Your Meter??
Mine nearly had a fucking meltdown trying to read the OP's posts! "Wreakless" is the one that's close to giving me a permanent twitch.
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ghostsofgiants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. I didn't actually read the whole thing, to be honest...
I stopped caring after the first "an step."
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. Smart Move
My brain hurts now.
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likesmountains 52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #72
107. I quit at " wonderfull"
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #71
196. No kidding
This rant is basically incomprehensible. "Well let me tell you , in southern calif forget it . you walk through a scanner first well seconds after you are robbed for $5 to part , set fee , you see ." Huh?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #58
81. I can't understand what "an step" means....
Seriously -- what is the OP saying?
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Frank Cannon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #81
238. I gave up reading after the first paragraph of the OP
I'm certainly no GSP Nazi, but come on...
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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 04:11 AM
Response to Original message
74. If you decide to go to court over this, please let me know.
I'm in SoCal too & I gotta see it. Youre gonna defend
yourself, I fondly hope?
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RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
76. I had one of those red light tickets not too long ago.
And I'm expecting another one any day now. Last week, the light turned red on me just as I went through it and I am sure the camera got me. Just pay the ticket and get over it. It is only $70 here in Georgia and it doesn't go against your license.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
79. Very telling the responses here,
I'm sorry for your misfortune friend, and quite frankly I find camera lights to be but another illegal, unconstitutional intrusion into our lives. The concept of confronting one's accuser has gone out the window in this case, opening up ever more possiblities of a slippery slope. In addition, most of these red light camera systems are contracted out to a private company who gets a cut of the fine money. And then there are the little shennanigans that are going on since these cameras have been installed. A couple of the most common are shortening up the yellow light to catch more people, or worse yet, having a police officer remotely control the light, switching it quickly in order to pop people.

And then there is the whole concept of creeping surveillance in our life. One can easily be tracked with red light and traffic monitoring cameras, and they're becoming ever more ubiquitous everyday. Cameras in stores, camera at stop lights, cameras on the street corner, and the sheeple just go baaa! I'm more than willing to bet than when they start putting cameras in our houses, the majority of people will welcome it.

Look, I realize that there is a problem with people running red lights. I got T-boned by somebody running a red light. But the answer isn't to turn our roads and highways into surveillance areas, the answer is for the police to do their damn job, stake our lights, and bust people in person, not by remote control.

There are also some problems with red light cameras, as noted here <http://www.highwayrobbery.net /> And it seems that judging from the plethora of articles out there, red light cameras fail to lower the accident rate, and in fact increase it in many cases<http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=red+light+cameras+redu... > So what's the point then? Yeah, that's right, providing another revenue stream for private corporations, the state, and enable the creeping cameras to infect our society even more.

And sadly, judging from the responses here, the propaganda is being catapaulted very well. Don't buy the conventional wisdom people, do your own research and your own thinking. Do you really want these things in your life. A system that is unconstitutional, illegally operated, and actually more harmful to society? I know I don't.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #79
84. There aren't enough cops to "stake lights"
Thanks to Junior.

I'd rather the cops be off taking care of criminals. And yeah, I really do want red light cameras in my life. Just like I want bank teller cameras, and security cameras around the non-public entrances where I work. I also don't mind going through metal detectors at courthouses. Certain things have nothing to do with "Big Brother," but are legitimate safety issues.

I'm aware of the faults of some red light camera systems, but they are still more dispassionate and more accurate than some subjective cop pissed off at the fight he had with his wife that morning. I haven't bought any propaganda. I've seen how people's driving has deteriorated over the years -- the roads are full of people who don't give a damn about anyone but themselves, and are sitting behind a huge and dangerous weapon with that attitude. If they themselves can't and won't police their CRIMINAL and DANGEROUS behavior, maybe a few $100 tickets will.

In my town, they had the same guy get ELEVEN tickets from one intersection then first week they put up the camera... and he was running a hard red every time. And that's only one intersection. So, how many people's lives was he putting in danger every day?

I'll say it again: most people who dislike these cameras are people who abuse traffic laws.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. And all the good sheeple go baa, baa, bah bah, baa baa.
Nice little bit of insinuation with your last sentence. Hey, just for the record, I've been ticketless for over twenty years, and the only accidents that I've been in were the fault of the other person, and that has been twice in thirty years. I'm a *very* safe driver, so I think you need to provide some evidence to back up your generalization there.

A question for you, since you have learned to stop worrying and love the camera, will you welcome one into your house? How about on light pole in front? In your backyard? What is the cut off point where you will say enough is enough? Amazing isn't it, how back in the days of fewer cameras, there were also fewer crimes committed.

And if you don't have enough cops to stake out dangerous lights, perhaps it is time that you hired some more police. Or perhaps take them off of crimes that are a waste of time, like catching those dangerous kids on the corner firing up a joint :shrug:

And you are really convinced that a system that is specifically designed to be a revenue enhancer is somehow better than a real life police officer :crazy: Thanks, but no thanks. I'll take any cop, any day, because police have been trained to follow the law, not programmed to enhance a revenue stream.

And pay no attention to that link I provided, that shows that these red light cameras, contrary to popular sales pitches, actually *increases* accidents. No, no, that can't be right. They make people feel safe, and secure, and force them to slam on their brakes as soon as the light turns yellow, thus forcing those behind them to slam in their rear end :eyes:

Look you may welcome increasing cameras in your life, but frankly I find it unconstitutional and abhorent. I also think that it is a slippery slope to total monitoring and total control. Do you realize that pretty soon, if not already, government and private companies will be tracking every movement you make via your cell phone. And that there is a distinct possiblity that they will start issuing speeding tickets based on this new technology? Are you down with that, since it will make you *feel* safer? We are quickly entering an Orwellian world, and just like Orwell foretold, most of the sheeple welcome it with open arms.

Like Franklin said, those who are willing to sacrifice their civil liberties for a greater sense of security deserve neither.
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #84
126. Hey, why worry if you have nothing to hide?
Where have I heard that before?

It's amazing. John Dean's authoritarian personalities reside in DU too.
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #79
87. I'm not seeing the "illegal" and "unconstitutional" part. It's not like
you can't go to court and fight it, or they're putting a camera on your driveway or something. We've had them here at least four years, and I'm all for them.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. Let's see here
The unconstitutional part comes from the fact that you cannot confront your accuser in a court of law. How does one confront a machine? Sure, you can do massive research, bring in expert testimony, but quite frankly most people cannot afford that, so they mumble and grumble and pay the ticket. Yet there are major flaws with red light cameras, as my first link above shows. And as my second link above points out, it seems that red light cameras are actually *causing* more accidents than they prevent, as people abruptly slam on their brakes and are promptly rear ended. Oh, and then there are some fourth amendment issues involved here. But again, who is going to make a federal case out of a hundred dollar fine.

And while you may not want a camera at the end of your driveway, that is exactly where this slippery slope is leading. In fact many major cities are starting to put cameras in various residential areas, and as we keep speeding down that slope, pretty soon there will be a camera in your front room. For your safety of course :eyes:

And then there is the fact that red light cameras are really nothing more than a revenue generator for the city and its affiliated private corporation. Thus, rules are broken to enhance revenue, namely the yellow light is being shortened, sometimes dramatically. The OP timed his light at 1.7 seconds, most standard times on a yellow light are three-four seconds. Yet it is quite common to knock down the camera equipped lights to three seconds or less. <http://itzlaw.com/bb-news/home/bb-news/newswt.php ><http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/news/bay-area-city-must-re... ><http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/12/eveningnews/m... > In fact this is done even on roads that have speed limits of 45 and above, thus insuring a revenue cash cow<http://www.hwysafety.com/fhwa_redlight601_letter.htm > And like I showed earlier, contrary to the stated purpose of minimizing accidents, these cameras are actually causing more accidents as people slam on their brakes in order to not get ticketed.

Sorry, but these cameras are a bad idea. They are not reducing accidents, instead they are increasing them. They aren't designed for safety, but instead as a revenue generator, as shown by the shortening of the yellow lights. And they are one more landmark as we go down that slippery slope to total surveillance and total control. Today, it's a red light camera, or one at the end of the block. Tommorrow it is a camera at the end of your driveway, peering into your windows. And the day after, well hell, the camera will be in your front room.
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. I sense that you are obviously motivated on this issue.

I'd suggest any or all of these:

Get a license plate blocker shield.

Have all your friends and neighbors write in to complain about these.

Lobby your city/county/other gov to have these removed, or better yet, run for office on this platform.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. Interesting suggestions, but I'll go you one better
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 10:05 AM by MadHound
I've moved out into the middle of nowhere, in a county that can't afford to put up cameras on every light pole. Cameras weren't the reason that we moved to a rural area from an urban area, but not having to worry about them is definetly a side benefit. The two nearest towns aren't going to start putting up cameras anytime soon either. However the urban area that I moved from is busily installing them, and other than writing LTTEs(which I have), there isn't much I can do, living in a different county and all. As far as plate blockers go, first off they're illegal, and secondly, the ones I've seen don't do a very good job.

So, I write my local and state officials, LTTEs, etc. There are much more important issues that I give the majority of my attention to, but I also pay attention to our creeping security state. If it continues, then you won't be able to go to the bathroom without a camera recording it, and it will hit urban areas first. Like I said, our mostly rural county can't afford such niceties, which in my eyes is a blessing.

I think what really burns me on this issue is that people so willingly accept these intrusions, all in the name of safety and security, even though the safety and security are nothing but illusions, as I've shown above. But people continue to allow these sorts of intrusions into their lives with nary a peep. I never thought that a 1984 scenario would come to pass, that the people would rise up in righteous outrage at the abuses inflicted upon them. But sadly, instead the people are acting like sheep, content in their illusion of safety and security, and the police state continues to grow exponentially.
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #92
93. Too funny, I'm debating this with someone who doesn't even
live where they have them. Stats from highwayrobbery.net to the contrary, from what I can see of the cities I live in, folks do seem to be stopping more for red lights, and I'm still in favor of them. Like I posted earlier, I've only been T-boned once, but if it had been on the driver's side instead of the passenger's side, you'd be reading posts from lectrobyte's ghost instead of lectrobyte.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #93
98. LOL indeed,
However considering that I work in that city which employes them, yes, they do indeed have a direct impact on me, five days a week. And even sometimes on weekends when my wife and I go to town for some fun. Don't make assumptions friend, it makes you look foolish.

And I'm glad that you can so casually throw away stats and facts like that, but instead of basing policy on subjective, emotionally swayed anecdotal evidence, I would prefer to base policy on facts, stats and reality. And frankly the reality in this case, backed up by the stats, states that red light cameras are causing more accidents than they're preventing. Sure, they might prevent you from getting T-Boned, but that will be cold comfort to the motorist behind you as they slam into your rear end and die, all because city engineers shortened the yellow light time in order to up the revenue generated, thus forcing you to slam on your brakes.

And you never answered my question about whether or not you would like a camera at the end of your driveway, or inside your house. That is, after all, where this slippery slope is leading. And besides, it will supposedly be for "your own safety" :eyes:
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #98
133. Facts and statistics have a liberal bias. He/she knows what her gut says.
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #133
148. I'd continue, but you lost me on getting killed when stopping for
a yellow light. Happy Motoring!
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #148
242. Yeah, just ignore those stats that I linked to,
The ones showing that yes indeed, red light cameras do indeed cause an increase in accidents, mostly rear enders. Yeah, ignore that and the fact that rear end accidents can, and do, kill people. I guess facts that go against your arguement are not worthy of consideration in your eyes. Wish I could live in that sort of fantasy land. However fantasy can only take you so far, and most people have to deal with reality, facts, every once in awhile.
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #242
243. OK, you got me. I can't resist hitting "my du" and see if I have
replies. I looked at highwayrobbery.net, and it just looked like a big mess of stuff. I followed your yahoo search, and saw a story from one of our local stations here.

http://www.wral.com/news/7118927/detail.html

Quoting one paragraph:

Allen said the city installed the cameras to cut down on dangerous, high-speed side collisions. An N.C. State study released last February shows that side crashes have decreased by 42 percent at Raleigh's 12 red-light camera intersections. The study showed a 7 percent increase in rear-end crashes.


I'd take a rear end bump over a broadside any day, and given those numbers, it seems like a much better trade off: Perhaps someone will be killed by the seven percent more rear end crashes, but how many have been saved by the 42 percent less side-impact crashes?

My perception is that they've helped the intersections that I deal with. And the stats seem to reflect that. Sorry the cameras bother you. If folks utilized more care and common sense, they'd be unncecessary, but I'm probably dreaming on that point.
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #133
245. and the stats seem to support the fact that while they might
Edited on Wed Aug-23-06 01:17 PM by lectrobyte
increase rear-end collisions, they do cut down on broadside accidents. See my post 243, below.
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mccoyn Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #98
205. Will you drop the slippery slope argument.
"And you never answered my question about whether or not you would like a camera at the end of your driveway, or inside your house. That is, after all, where this slippery slope is leading."

They are using cameras in public places to monitor the use of dangerous machinery in a situation that has killed people in the past. Thats a far cry from inside my house, but your argument is that it is automatic. It does not immediately follow that cameras at intersections will lead to cameras in houses. All your other arguments are sound and you would convince me if you weren't so insistent on this one weak argument.

Just to show you how weak it is: Do you want people to get away with driving 100 mph through the city? Because if we don't enforce red light violations that is, after all, where this slippery slope is leading.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #205
229. Slippery slope arguments kick ass.
They're a very effective way of dodging the issue at hand.

If Big Brother wants to tell you where it's OK to park, what's to stop the government from telling you WHAT TO THINK!?!?!?
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #205
240. Let me take your words, alter them a bit, and then see
If my slippery slope arguement appeals to you.

Your original quote: "They are using cameras in public places to monitor the use of dangerous machinery in a situation that has killed people in the past."

OK, now let's alter it so that it is an arguement for a camera at the end of your driveway: "They are using cameras in public places to monitor the activity of dangerous people in a neighborhood that has had people killed in the past." I've already heard this sort of rationalization many times already to argue the use of cameras in residential areas. In fact some of those arguements have come from people here on DU, in almost those exact words

Now then, let's take it to the next level, a camera in your home: "They are using cameras in private homes to monitor the use of dangerous individuals in a situation where they have caused harm in the past." This is what's coming, and something that the authoritarians in our society are already calling for. More specifically, they are making this arguements in regards to pedophiles and sex offenders, the one category of criminal that people on all sides of the political spectrum feel justified in taking away their rights. However it would be one short step from monitoring sex offenders to monitoring other former criminals(after all, the arguement can, and probably will be made that people who commit property and drug crimes have a higher recividism rate, and thus should be monitored). And after we're done monitoring criminals, well hey, we might as well put a camera or two in every home, after all, as the freepers and other authoritarian folks love to say, if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to worry about :eyes:

You may not buy the slippery slope arguement, but I've been alive to see it in operation in way too many instances. Piss testing comes to mind. At first it was for high risk jobs, now it has gotten to the point where you have to pee in a cup to attend high school, work at a convience store, and many other mundane circumstances where it isn't called for.

So perhaps that is why I consider it automatic, because I've seen the US go head first down other slippery slopes. So sue me for having little faith in the people of this country to prostest these sorts of actions, and even less faith that our government will refrain from going down those paths. Hopefully I will be proved wrong, but sadly, I doubt that I will be.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #79
228. Creeping surveillence?
You have the expectation of privacy in a busy traffic intersection?
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #228
241. Damn, I guess I'm just one of those onery old farts
Who finds it despicable, in a 1984 sort of way, that this country has gone from no cameras spying on people to having cameras in every building and on every corner, all within forty years. If you had told Americans back then that we were going to have our every movement not only tracked, but filmed for posterity, this country would have been up in arms. But now, people just shrug it off, even though there is no evidence that cameras have deterred crime.

But, since cameras were introduced slowly, gradually, people didn't notice, and even welcomed the arguements that they would make society safer. And here we are, forty years later, with cameras encroaching into residential neighborhoods. Yes, it is creeping surveillance, and the next place it is going to creep is onto the light pole across from your house, and then after that, right on into your house. But hey, if you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to worry about, right? :sarcasm:
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
82. Stop your whining
In addition to being one of the most incoherent posts I've ever tried to "read," this is also a juvenile complaint. You broke the law. Slow down when you see a yellow and maybe you won't be putting people's lives in danger. I'm glad you were punished; maybe it will save somebody's life from your illegal driving later on. Three cheers for the judge, for not putting up with your whining bullshit.
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #82
132. What a load of shit coming from someone who thinks it's hip......
....to spray-paint vandalize people's homes. Mr. Law and order now.

I know the post is a little difficult to read, especially when you are on a high horse, but the point she was trying to make is that the yellow-light interval was less than half the legally prescribed time of 3.9 seconds.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #132
134. LOL
Spray paint never killed a person, though, right? Douchebags running red lights have. Next issue.

:rofl:
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #134
135. "You broke the law" Your quote, Mr. Law and Order.
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 12:24 PM by Kingshakabobo
Maybe you should go turn your self in now that you are with the law and order gang.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #135
142. I have a project for you
Go find anywhere I said that people should NOT be punished for writing graffiti. In fact, I say the opposite. They should be. That's part of the game. If someone came on and whined that they had to pay a fine or do a stretch over graffiti, I'd tell them to stop whining, too. You play, you pay. If you get caught, tough luck. The whining, incoherent OP should take that to heart.

Cheers.
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #142
161. Oh, now breaking the law is a game. Gotcha, Mr. Law and Order..
I have a project for you. Why don't you re-read the Op's posts and TRY and understand that he is trying to say that the yellow light is mis-timed. I know it's hard for the intentionally obtuse that would rather throw snarky comments at fellow DUers. I know it's hard for the "big brother will keep me safe, warm and fuzzy" gang to understand that these traffic lights are for revenue enhancement - not your safety.

I live in Chicago where our Mayor has made NO bones about the fact that the cameras ARE for revenue enhancement. That, and the new rules that have recently been implemented about paying parking meters on Sunday. Are they interested in collecting quarters? Nope. Just the fines that go along with the extended meter hours. Now we have parking enforcement swarming the neighborhood on Sundays too. That, AND the fact that they just hired 40 new health-code enforcement officers to prowl the city. Why did they hire health-code enforcement officers you say? Does chicago have an epidemic of people dropping dead from food poisoning? No. They made very public remarks that they need to "gin up" some violation revenue.

Of course, now that you are part of the law and order gang, I suppose your answer will be don't violate health codes and parking meters. Gotcha. I personally don't feel the courts and police should be used as revenue enhancement tools.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #161
174. Blah blah blah
I'm not so much for law and order as I am against whining. You can keep calling me "Mr. Law and Order" all ya want, but that's the scope of it.

As for big brother and revenue enhancement, that's neither here nor there.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
86. If the real purpose of these cameras...
was to discourage people from running red lights they would post large signs to warn drivers. Since they do not, the purpose is obviously to raise money ... well of course if anyone should get killed they'll have a picture as evidence too. Phuckers!
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #86
108. We have large signs posted before the cams and at the cams in NC. n/t
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #86
136. Yellow lights are there to warn people not to run red lights
Now you want a sign warning you that the law is being enforced?
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #86
150. isn't it the job of the traffic light
to protect the public. The cameras are designed to help enforce and make that protection effective. Why should there be a sign. Does that mean that if there isn't a sign its okay to run a red light?
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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #150
232. The job of law enforcement is to protect laws
Why is that job given to cameras?

When your phone is tapped with no warrant, would you be saying the same?
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #232
237. what happens in the privacy of one's home and on a public street
are different, eh?
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TheFriedPiper Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
94. Drive faster, that way you'll make it through
j/k

Although, and I'm not saying this is you, there are a LOT of people that drive just under the speed limit while I'm behind them, but then run the red light and leave me sitting at it.

Of course, those are the same people that drive slowly in the left lane, who think it is their responsibility to slow other people down.

The Declaration of Independance says I have the right to the pursuit of happiness, it says nothing about at what rate I can pursue said happiness.

Speed limits are anti-American!


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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #94
96. No joke - see thread #95
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 10:23 AM by muriel_volestrangler
You need to approach lights with a 4 second delay going at least at 13mph if you want to get across them in time.

In the UK driving test, you can be failed for driving too slowly, as well as too fast.
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
102. Figure out this California traffic law regarding yellow lights
Automated Enforcement Systems: Minimum Yellow Light Change Interval

21455.7. (a) At an intersection at which there is an automated enforcement system in operation, the minimum yellow light change interval shall be established in accordance with the Traffic Manual of the Department of Transportation.

(b) For purposes of subdivision (a), the minimum yellow light change intervals relating to designated approach speeds provided in the Traffic Manual of the Department of Transportation are mandatory minimum yellow light intervals.

(c) A yellow light change interval may exceed the minimum interval established pursuant to
subdivision (a).



:shrug: :rofl:
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #102
106. We have fake intersection cameras here too. Guess they are cheaper n/t
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #102
109. It just means that they set the light signal interval
as a function of the approaching speed of the vehicle. A car travelling in a 25 mph zone will have to slow down a bit when turning. How slow depends on the curve through the intersection.

It is just math, with a little legalese thrown in for good measure.
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
112. Just ignore the ticket
Unless you are handed the ticket by a cop you are under no obligation to appear. How does the courts even know you got the ticket? It's sent regular mail by a private company. Unless you sign for it how do they know you got it? It could have been lost in the mail. This is just a government scam hoping you are ignorant about the laws. They can't prove you got the ticket until you show up in court. Don't fall for it.
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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #112
114. And I'm sure Lawyer Timmy will give you more shining legal advice
when they drop a warrant on your ass. (Just in case the
OP doesn't know you're being funny, Timmy).
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #114
140. I am NOT kidding
Unless you sign for it it is NOT a binding agreement. You did not swear to appear by signature. Ignore the ticket.
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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #140
147. Sorry for giving you the benefit of the doubt.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #112
123. Ignore the ticket and you'll have a bench warrant out on you
And, you'll wind up in cuffs with an even bigger fine, and a little time in jail. OOOOH. Fun.

Out of curiosity: where did you get your JD?
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #123
141. Tell me, Perry Mason.......
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 12:30 PM by Timmy5835
....How do you get a bench warrant from a machine?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #141
151. A judge would issue that warrant.
Based upon the OP's failure to pay a ticket, which was given to him when a machine took a photograph of the OP running a red light.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #141
181. Doesn't matter what you say, you're wrong
Be as snide as you want... you're wrong. Call a lawyer, call the Court, call a cop. They'll tell you the same thing.

No reason for ad hominen attacks... oh wait, yes there is. Because you know you're wrong, and that's the only defense you have. BECAUSE YOU'RE WRONG.

Got that, Hamilton Burger?
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #141
199. okay timothy wendell holmes
Here's a link to the California traffic laws http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/vctoc.htm
You should give them a read before you start offering your "legal" advice and opinion. You'd learn something. Such as, California expressly, by law, allows some of the functions of operating redlight cameras to be contracted out, but responsibility ultimately rests with the govt (sec 21455.5). That notice given by mail is presumed to be complete (ie. delivery is presumed) four days after the notice is placed in the mail,postage prepaid (sec 22-23); and that ignoring a notice of appear mailed regarding a redlight violation detected by an automated enforcement system (camera) can lead to serious consequences (sec. 40518).

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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #123
157. Answer me this......
You mean to tell me these counties have all this money to pay all the deputy's to serve these warrants? You're not even thinking, are you?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #157
160. No.
They simply enter it into the computer and the next time Blue90 gets pulled over he gets a free ride to jail.
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Crabby Appleton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #112
138. The problem is
"They can't prove you got the ticket until you show up in court."

They will arrange for that at your inconvenience.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #138
143. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #143
183. Wrong yet again, Hamilton Burger
I've received court summons to appear as a witness before -- it was left in a little Tyvek bag on my doorknob. I never signed for a thing.

BENCH WARRANT.

Kinda like thr insults for a newbie, huh?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #138
144. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #112
222. Ms. Francesca Cisneros believed as you did...
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
121. I can't even understand this post. nt
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
130. It's obvious some get it and some don't
Those who have a brain still in tact shows there are still thinkers left , most however are of the new breed of brainwashed masses who are the sort who are willing to give away all their rights and then finally when the reality hits them in the head then they begin to clammor and moan , when it's far too late . These are the people who must feel the NSA is the proper agency and are in full agreement . Do the thinkers a huge favor post your names and areas you live so others can avoid you entirely .

It makes alot of sense to think these cameras are put in place to save your lives if you are a complete idiot . Then you must believe bush is keeping you safer as well ,right ? Why not offer proof of the number of lives saved by these cameras since you are the ones who brought this up . See if you can find where all the money generated off these lights ends up . Don't take my word for anything find out for yourself then come online and make your insane ,child like comments . The really sad part is other people have to share this planet with mindless reactionary fools such as yourselves , all ready to judge without stopping to ever think first . This is what makes it so very easy for your rights to be taken away simply because you accept everything at face value just because someone said something is proper and right does not mean it is .
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. Nah. Most of us know that going through an intersection
when the light is about to turn red is not legal. Pay the ticket and follow the rules of the road.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #130
137. So running red lights and putting lives at risk
is the "progressive" thing to do? Well, then, I'm a proud reactionary. :eyes:
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #130
159. I don't particularly care where the money ends up.
I'd hope it ends up buying more machines for more intersections. Or general road maintenance, and stuff like that. But if it doesn't, that's fine too.

The point is, it's punishment for you running the red light and to keep you from doing it again.

Comparing you breaking the law in public to the NSA spying on non-criminal people minding their own business is ludicrous. It's the sort of mindlessness and brainlessness you just accused other people of having.
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #159
164. Why don't you try this
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 01:12 PM by Timmy5835
By letting a machine in essence arrest you, you are giving the machine the same rights as a human. If that doesn't chill you I suggest you move to China or some other dictatorship. 1984 here we come.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #164
166. The machine arrests you now?
That's odd, I thought it just takes pictures of you breaking the law.

LOL.
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #166
167. Hey Bornaginhooligan.....
We you get a ticket you are technically arrested.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #167
168. My goodness me.
Does that mean when I get arrested I'm technically convicted?
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #168
173. You got that right
Real justice only comes if you got the money.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #173
177. LOL
Or obey the traffic laws in the first place.
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #177
213. Are you DENCE or what???????
This has very little to do with traffic laws and a lot to do with Big Brother. Where will these private or public cameras end? In your bathroom perhaps?
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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #213
216. "Are you DENCE or what???????"
That belongs on a sign.
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WI Independent Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #159
190. But that is the problem...
Some red light cameras are set up on a contract with a private firm that gets all or part of the fine. In some cases, they find they aren't generating the expected revenue, so they reduce the yellow light time. It's not about public safety, it's about corporate profits. Do some googling... there are proven cases of this.

I don't know if the original poster was caught in one of these scams... and it sure sounds like he/she was taken by it.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #130
188. Obeying traffic laws does NOT equal giving your rights away
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 01:44 PM by LostinVA
Oh boy...

Intersections employing these lights DO have the number of accidents drop -- usually quite sharply.

Show us where they DON'T stop accidents -- I ain't proving a negative.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #130
202. if you want proof of how the cameras save lives, try these
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
155. I am amazed just how stupid some of you are
Why not tell what your definition of running a red light is . Mine is if the light is red and I see it is red and then i just go right through it then yes I was definetly in the wrong .

I did pay the ticket plead no contest simply because i realized there is no way on earth anything I could possibly use to prove other wise would not count . However the light was green when I entered the intersection , many of you seem to feel this is running a red light . Based on this it is a damn good thing none of you are in law enforcement of in control of anything that effects anyone life . I did go to court and paid the ticket , what part do you not get ? if you feel these cameras are the best thing since sliced bread and will be the cure all of traffic accidents then keep on trucking , I hope these lights flood into your local drive zone and then come back here when you are told your own eyes are no longer reliable and all common sense means nothing , become robots if you like you certaily deserve it .
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #155
165. LOL.
Well see, that's the problem.

I consider "running the red light" to be passing through an intersection on a red light whether you see the red light or not.

It's like running over a kid and then saying you didn't really run over the kid because you didn't see him. Ha ha ha!
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mccoyn Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #165
171. I hope your not in law enforcement.
I usually close my eyes when approaching a light so I don't have to stop if its red.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #171
175. LOL.
It's not as funny, but I notice when you're crossing through a crosswalk and the oncoming driver refuses to yield to you, often they'll suddenly pretend to not see you. They'll quickly turn their heads the other way and so on. Sometimes they'll even speed up. Bastards.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #155
172. you got caught in the box
stop complaining
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #155
178. Jeez-us
Get a hold of yourself.

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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
156. "since I got this ticket i stop sharp on all yellow"
There's your problem.

You did not stop on yellow but tried to beat the light and got caught. Luckily for you, it was only a ticket, and not an accident.

You only have yourself to blame, but the point of the ticket is apparently has had it's effect, and you will now be more careful at intersections. The camera has a purpose to help prevent this:
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
169. A.) California is a police state and has been for decades.
B.) Traffic tickets and parking tickets are two of the most popular "taxes" imposed on the residents of "The Golden State". Don't even waste your time or money trying, they will get their money, no matter the evidence or lack thereof.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
170. Photo-Lights and Photo-Speedtraps are fascist
In my opinion.

Seriously - why don't we just mount cameras in everyones home to make sure they don't break any laws....
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #170
176. Guess what?????
That's where it maybe going.
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #176
182. The "Red light" cameras are really just part of the issue
The issue is losing more of my human rights to machines and the government. Do you think this will stop at red light cameras? The State will push as far as they can and the next thing you know, you have little or no rights and you NEVER get them back. You want to make the streets safer? Simple, hire more Cops, don't take my rights away. Red light cameras are just the beginning.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #182
184. I'd rather have a camera.
It's cheaper than having an extra cop stake out that intersection 24/7.
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #184
185. Then prepare for........
1984
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #185
186. Did you even read 1984?
Seems out of your grade level.
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #186
189. Why are you on THIS board??????
Rush is on.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #189
191. Really? I wouldn't know.
But there's a guy who likes to committ crimes and weasel out of them because he thinks the law doesn't apply to him...
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #191
193. This has VERY little to do with common crimes......
....and more to do with human rights and how much the State can monitor you. Haven't you been paying attention?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #193
194. It happened in public, right?
Last I checked, the government can "monitor" you committing crimes in public.
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #194
214. For now.......
.....Maybe.
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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #194
234. Have your phones been tapped?
A vehement NO? Or, I have no idea if they have?

Monitoring can take place at any time without your knowledge. Are you comfortable with that?
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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #186
233. Have you ever read 1984?
What would Winston Smith do?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #184
215. I understand the point
And I'm sure cities didn't intend on being fascist with these, but it's an intrusion nonetheless...

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #170
192. Because we would have to change the name of the country to
Great Britain, and that would defeat the purpose of fighting that war so long ago.
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WI Independent Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
195. A symtom of a much bigger issue...
The privatization of government functions with the incentives geared to make the problem worse, not better.

A lot of these cameras are set up with a private firm and paid for by the tickets generated. The incentive to the private company is to generate more tickets, NOT make the intersection safer. The easiest way to generate more tickets is to reduce the yellow light time. This actually make the intersection more dangerous.... but, what the heck, the company and the government are both making lots of money! From the info provided by the original poster, that sounds like what may have happened here.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. What is the incentive of a private prison, paid per inmate, regarding repeat offenders? Think about it...

And of course we all know how well Haliburton is working for us!
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
204. This thread reminds me of this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... It's a little hard to tell which one is the parody! :)
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
212. There are ways to defeat them.
First, the spray on photoblockers really do work. They make your plates far more reflective, creating glare that makes the plates hard to read. For nightime photos taken with a flash, they're impossible to read. The problem? Finding the real deal can be tough. There's a lot of scammers on the Internet who will sell you repackaged hairspray or something like that KNOWING that you won't do anything once you find out the scam.

A newer trick is to put a thin sheet of smart glass between your plate and license frame. Smart glass turns white when an electric current is applied to it, effectively obscuring whatever is behind it. Wire it up to a button behind the steering wheel, and whenever you get to one of those intersections, just hit the thing. Your plates will be obscured and they can't send you a ticket.

Of course, both of these tricks are illegal as hell. It's very hard to get caught with the spray (they look fairly normal to the naked eye), but if a cop sees you hit the smart glass button, or if they DO catch you with the spray, you can face serious charges. Some people just get fined for obscuring their plates, but there have been a few cases where people have been charged with everything from "obstruction of justice" to "interfering with a police investigation" and "evasion". Depends on your local cops and DA.

Yes, I do have the spray on my plates. I have to pass through two camera equipped intersections every day...one of which is a known scam (impossible to get through the intersection before the light turns red if you enter as, or just after, it turns yellow).
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RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #212
244. Please PM me as to where I can buy the spray.
I have already had one ticket and am expecting another one soon, as the light turned on me just as I started to make the turn.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
218. I'm surprised how many on DU are jumping on you
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 07:09 PM by RamboLiberal
Personally I can see the point of these cameras, but I don't like the idea of more big brother in my life and my inability to defend myself in court against my accuser. Wait till they roll out the speed cameras as well.

I find traffic tickets in general too often used as a method of revenue making for local and state governments. But it is a kind of Catch 22 since we need to keep the roads safe, but too often we find local and state officials putting too low a speed limit, putting in stop signs just cause some ninny had an accident there 20 years ago and complained, some traffic signals put in just cause of overdevelopment and then not taken out when that development dies, etc. And local govts and states that use the police to make a small fortune off the backs of tax paying motorists with this hidden tax.

And don't think these cameras are not a scam in many cases setup just to roll in the money. I think you have a legitimate complaint about the short yellow. Wish more here on DU would do some research on this issue. I sympathize with you blues90.

Hope all you ripping blues90 get caught someday by one of these unfair setups and have to come back for a mea culpa.

And btw, it's been at least 25+ years since I've had a traffic ticket for a red light violation when I tried to squeeze a yellow. And I'm one who hesitates a second when light turns green to check no one runs the light. I drive defensively, but I also want the option of not trying to stop for a short yellow if I think I'm going to get rear-ended by the idiot behind me or if road conditions warrant that I may skid the car trying to make a quick stop.

If they ever put red light cameras in my area - Pittsburgh, PA - they would make a fortune on just the Pittsburgh Left.

Read this from the WPost:

The District's red-light cameras have generated more than 500,000 violations and $32 million in fines over the past six years. City officials credit them with making busy roads safer.

But a Washington Post analysis of crash statistics shows that the number of accidents has gone up at intersections with the cameras. The increase is the same or worse than at traffic signals without the devices.

Three outside traffic specialists independently reviewed the data and said they were surprised by the results. Their conclusion: The cameras do not appear to be making any difference in preventing injuries or collisions.

"The data are very clear," said Dick Raub, a traffic consultant and a former senior researcher at Northwestern University's Center for Public Safety. "They are not performing any better than intersections without cameras."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

I suggest all do some reading at National Motorist Association Site. http://www.motorists.org/issues/enforce/articles.html

Don't think these camera firms aren't the same thing as other big Govt contractors like Halliburton and Bechtel which we all rail against. And don't think big money is not greasing the skids in the pockets of state and local politicians.

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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #218
220. Ding ding ding. 32 million dollars! That's the ticket. A tax on the poor.
Now, if the juveniles that post the "stop whining" comments and baby pictures would pull their heads out of their asses for a second, they would get it that these cameras are nothing but another regressive tax. Take a look down at city hall and see who is in traffic court and parking enforcement court either to have their licenses un-suspended or Denver-boots removed. It ain't rich folk. hint: mostly minorities.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #220
221. I'd be all for Progressive Traffic Fines
One of Finland's richest men has been fined a record 170,000 Euros ($217,000) for speeding through the center of the capital, police said.

Jussi Salonoja, 27, heir to his family's sausage business, was caught driving 50 mph in a 25 mph zone last week.

Finnish traffic fines are pegged to the offender's income. According to tax data, Salonoja's 2002 earnings were close to 7 million Euros.

Imagine that kind of system here. It could be scaled way down, say $3,000 for a rich person, $300 for a middle-income person and $30 for a poor person for each violation involving speeding, running a red light, blocking an intersection, ignoring a crosswalk or parking illegally in a curb lane during rush hour. Think that might bring any more compliance and downtown gridlock relief?

http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/20...
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
224. If you don't like red light tickets, then stop running red lights.
Or am I missing something?

Are you saying it's your god-given right to run red lights whenever you goddamn please?

Or are you saying that you did not, in fact run a red light? Despite what the picture says?

I just don't get what the issue is.
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #224
226. You are missing something. nt
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #224
231. you're way late to the party
it has been an ongoing scandal that the private companies running these scam cameras set the timer so that you can't possibly clear the intersection before the light changes from yellow to red

the point is not safety, the point is theft

even msnbc.com has discussed this issue before, and they are no hotbed of progressive or conspiracy reporting, agreed?

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