Sunday School Teacher Let Go For Being Female

[Greylyn58]

Woman Taught Sunday School For 54 Years


WATERTOWN, N.Y. -- The pastor of a church that has stopped letting women teach Sunday school said that won't affect his decisions as a city councilman in upstate New York.

Rev. Timothy LaBouf dismissed a female Sunday School teacher this month, saying a woman can perform any job -- outside the church.

The First Baptist Church in Watertown dismissed Mary Lambert Aug. 9 after adopting what it called a literal interpretation of the Bible.

The reverend recently dismissed Lambert, who had taught Sunday school for 54 years, citing the biblical advice of the apostle Paul: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."

snip...

http://www.wsoctv.com/family/9708083/detail.html


I'm sure this sort of disgusting behavior has been going on for some time, but I do have to wonder if it isn't becoming more prevalent and talked about in the MSM thanks to Bush and his so-called religious stances(fake though they are) The way women are being treated since he and the neo-cons came to power has allowed it to grow and take root. This woman has taught in her church for 54 years without so much as a peep from anyone and Now all of a sudden it is wrong??!!!

EXCUSE ME!!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again...church leaders who act this way are not believers. They are as bad as the KKK, White Surpremist and all other religions who quote cherry-picked passages from the Bible or other religious texts to fit their own twisted beliefs.

[AspenRose]

1. "Advice of the Apostle Paul"

NOT the words of Christ himself....big difference.

PS I am proud of the fact that the methodist church I currently attend has a female pastor.

[immoderate]

2. Excuse me too.

I'm not a believer and I wouldn't act that way. It's only believers that can do that.

--IMM

[noamnety]

11. And me.

This idea that if you're sexist, you must secretly be an atheist is offensive. Being a Christian means you believe in Christ/God. It doesn't exempt you from being racist or sexist.

Atheists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. all have some people that are bigots, and some that aren't. Please stop categorizing people with crap morals as atheists by default.

[undeterred]

3. Years ago I was leading a bible study in a conservative church

I went and talked to the minister about going to seminary, and he told me he didn't think a woman should be in charge of a church. I had been an active member for two years. Job security, I guess. I walked out and never went back. He can keep his silent mousey women.

[kurth]

4. Silent mousey women let them molest little kids

Lou Beres, longtime leader of the Oregon Christian Coalition, told police that he had sexually touched three underage girls years ago, according to a newly released report from the Gresham Police Department.

Beres denied allegations of sexual molestation when they first came to light in The Oregonian last October. Gresham police last fall investigated allegations Beres had molested underage family members, but Multnomah County District Attorney Michael Shrunk said the allegations occurred so long ago that Beres couldn't face charges under the statute of limitations.

In March, Beres, 70, was sued in Multnomah County Circuit Court for $2.1 million by a relative who said he molested her repeatedly between 1963 and 1966.

http://www.oregonlive.com/metro/oregonian/index.ssf?/ba...

[donsu]

5. kick

nt

[Greylyn58]

36. I don't blame you for walking out

That kind of attitude and some of the pettiness I saw creeping into the church I attended is what made me leave.

[undeterred]

39. In my bible study group there were 3 other women

one was a CPA, another was a doctor, and a third was finishing a PhD in education. So I thought great, women are allowed to becomes leaders anywhere except church, or if in church, they can assume some forms of leadership as long as they are not paid for it.

The first time I walked into a liberal church there was a black woman preaching to a racially integrated congregation, and I knew I was in a place where they "got" it.

[Greylyn58]

40. I've become more of a spiritual person

over the years and don't go to church anymore.

Maybe one day I will find a more liberal place to worship...one that treats everyone with equality, but for now I just don't think much of organized religion.

[undeterred]

41. I ended up with the least organized religion

Quakers/ Society of Friends

No dogma, nobody excluded, really wonderful people.

[donco6]

6. Lots of churches believe this.

And not only whacko fundies (although perhaps any church that practices it is de facto "whacko.")

Lots of evangelical churches believe that "women should not be in authority over men." Some go so far as to teach that this precludes women from working outside the home at all. Others draw the line at church, where they restrict women from teaching, but they can still be songleaders and other "nonteaching" roles (which is interesting - how do you divide "teaching" from "nonteaching" roles?)

In contrast, it's interesting that churches you might see as fundamentalist not only allow women to teach, but they are often led by women. These are the charismatic churches - Assembly of God, Foursquare Gospel, . . . anything that believes in speaking in tongues. They are not really fundamentalist, though they would emphatically insist that they believe the "whole Gospel" - i.e., if you don't believe in the Gifts of the Spirit, you're not believing the "whole Gospel."

All these divisions in Christianity are ripe for exploitation, but no one seems to even know about them.

[Greylyn58]

15. You are right about the exploitation

with Bush and his crowd leading the way backwards. If we have to endure much more of this type of crap, women will have their lives pushed back 500 years in just 6 years thanks to them.

I was raised in the church(Assoc Reformed Presbyterian Church)but as I got older and became more aware, I realized how badly any organized religion or faith can be twisted. It's sad, but history is full of this unfortunate fact and I'm afraid the neo-cons are really into exploiting religion for their own perverted causes.

[FormerDem06]

22. Our church holds that....

Women may teach anywhere they want, they may serve on any committee they want, they just may not hold one of the two Pastor positions. We practice Church Disclipline and pastoral counseling, and the belief (and in some ways I support it) is that a man who struggles with issues such as pornography addiction, alcoholism or sexual issues is less likely to go and sit down with a female pastor to discuss these issues.

We also say that if a female needs counseling, the Pastor's wife must be present at all times (and in some cases, the pastor may leave the session depending on the nature of the conversation). There are TONS of women in leadership positions in our church, but for those reasons listed above, we have two male, married pastors.

From that aspect I support it, but in other aspects I don't.

[Greylyn58]

27. I can understand some of what you stated

It's the same with doctors. Some men or women have problems relating health issues to a male or female doctor and might need one of the same sex to talk to. So it can be the same with spiritual problems.

I do think however, if a woman is qualified, she shouldn't be prevented from guiding a church as its spiritual leader. I think having a male and female pastor would speak volumes about any church.

Just my opinion.

[Maat]

7. Yes, ONE (not all) of the Baptist Church administrative bodies ..

the Southern Baptist Convention .. pretty much epitomizes the Radical Religious Right.

To prove my point, please go review the history of their 'church resolutions;' as pretty much the culmination of a rightwing takeover that began around 1979, the SBC started pushing the following ideas in the mid- to late-1990's: (1) women must 'submit' to their husbands; and (2) women must never be allowed to be pastors - or lead men - in the Church.

If one googles Richard Land, Albert Mohler, and the Ethics and Liberty Commission of the SBC, one will find loads of material related to this topic.

I research the RRR, and, one day, I listened to Al Mohler on 'Family' radio; he went on and on celebrating "the return of the patriarchy." It was disgusting; I could only take a few minutes of it.

[atreides1]

8. I wonder

If he plans to apply the literal biblical interpretation to everything regarding his church?






Jefferson once wrote that "Paul was the first corrupter of the teachings of Jesus."

[Greylyn58]

9. I think Jefferson was Right On

with that statement.

I've always believed he was. He twisted so much of Jesus' teaching.

[texastoast]

10. Oh, FUCK those people

And you are right, we are tumbling back to the days of:

Nigger jokes are okay
The glass ceiling for women just got three feet thicker
Ultra conservative ways of dressing (bye-bye business casual)

Because deep down, lots of white men just prefer it like that.

[NoAmericanTaliban]

12. Looks like the Christo-Fascist have another thing in common with

with the Islamic-Fascist. They both believe in the suppression of women. Women should serve men. After all, women are 'unclean'.

[slampoet]

13. This jerk doesn't even know how to interpret the King James Bible!!!

The passage reads "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."

I says NOTHING about a woman's authority over Children. Children are not Men.

[Maat]

24. True; however ..

any intelligent woman should just plain walk out of a church that does not permit a woman to be pastor. Progressives (this being a progressive board and all) should NOT be giving money to these churches - not one thin dime, in my opinion.

[Initech]

14. Is there a way we could systematically expidite these people?

I'm referring to the so-called "morals and values" crowd. Argh, every article I read like this pisses me off to no end.

[gratuitous]

16. {Yawn} Another sexist pig hiding behind the Bible

Ecclesiastes 1 : 9.

[shadowknows69]

17. Believe it or not

I have a Two part video interview I did with this guy. He also used to contribute to my website occasionally. Anyone want to see the press releases he sent me?

[shadowknows69]

18. The official church line:

FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH
207 STATE STREET
WATERTOWN, NEW YORK 13601

August 19, 2006



For Immediate Release




The Board of the First Baptist Church is saddened that a private church matter has once again been aired in the public arena. In September of 2006 First Baptist Church will offer Sunday school classes at 9:30 a.m. for all age groups. To meet the vibrant growth of our congregation the Board has made various changes. As a church we believe that God has a special role for both men and women within the church setting. Currently 55% of the Diaconate Board members of First Baptist Church are women. Additionally, by September, 87% of all Sunday School teaching positions will be filled by female educators. We believe that organizing our church in accordance with the teaching of scripture will enable us to continue to reach out to our community in the name of our loving Savior Jesus Christ.

In the specific case of Ms. Lambert the Board’s decision to remove her from a teaching position was multifaceted and the scriptural rules concerning women teaching men in a church setting was only a small aspect of that decision. Christian courtesy motivates us to refrain from making any public accusations against her.

The Board remains grateful for our growing, vibrant membership and welcomes everyone to our Church. We wholly stand by our mission to establish a dynamic spirit-filled fellowship for all ages, based on Biblical principles, whose witness is to the saving power of Jesus Christ, and whose effect is a “Lighthouse on the Square” that touches spiritual needs worldwide in God’s name.

The Diaconate Board supports our Pastor and his continuing efforts to preach the Gospel, administer the ordinances, watch over the membership, promote the interests of the Church, organize and develop its strengths with the best possible service and remains grateful for his continuing efforts.



Very truly yours,

Diaconate Board, First Baptist Church

[shadowknows69]

19. Long one but this is his personal release explaining it

TIMOTHY R. LABOUF
1141 STATE STREET
WATERTOWN, NY 13601

August 19, 2006

For Immediate Release

Ladies and gentlemen,

Over the course of the last several years as a Watertown City Councilmember I have had the distinct honor to speak with many of you about a variety of different issues. As a Councilmember I have been dedicated to listening to you and your points of view so that I could make decisions that would be in your best interests and bring about the best possible results for this community that we all love. I believe that together we have accomplished some great things and I firmly believe that our best days still lie ahead. I remain humbled and honored by the great trust that you have placed in me. It is a trust that I take very seriously and it is a trust that I do not want to jeopardize.

For the last several days I have remained silent about the decision that our board at the First Baptist church made, which I work for and in concert with, to relieve a member of our church from teaching an adult class and the rational behind that decision. I know that my silence has been a source of frustration to some of you and many of you must have been thinking, “Why isn’t he speaking?” Others of you probably thought, “He has never been shy in front of the cameras before, why now?” I would have probably thought the same things if I were in your shoes so I’d like to explain the best I can to you the reasons for my initial silence.

The meeting in which our Board made this decision took place on the evening of Wednesday, August 9th at 6:30 p.m. On Thursday, August 10th the letter was mailed to Ms. Lambert. When I arrived home on the evening of Monday August 14th there was a message on my home answering machine from John Moore of Newswatch50 requesting that I call him at home or on his cell phone. I thought it was a bit late to phone him at home so my intention was to call him the following day. My initial thought was that he was calling in regard to a City issue. Well, the following morning, Tuesday, August 15th I was saddened to learn via the Newswatch50 website that once again a private church matter was made public by Ms. Lambert. The media inquiries as you can imagine became increasing more intense by the hour and our board felt that it important to call a special meeting to formulate a public response. Many of you know what it is like trying to get people’s schedules to coordinate for meetings and so the board decided that Friday evening at 7:00 p.m. would provide the greatest opportunity for Board members to attend. As frustrating as the waiting has been I felt it appropriate to first confer with our Board before making a public comment out of respect to them and their positions and to obtain guidance from them in regard to commenting on this issue to ensure that I would not create additional confusion and pain in our community. I think we can all agree that there has been enough of that. I want you to know that waiting to comment this long has been extremely difficult for me also. I know that you can appreciate that and I am grateful for your understanding. Our special Board meeting took place tonight, Friday August 19, 2006 at 7:00 p.m. at which time the Board prepared a statement for the public that I am confident will be made available to you. At this point I am now prepared to be transparent with you about this issue and how it relates to my role at the First Baptist Church and on the Watertown City Council.

First let me address this issue in regard to how it applies to my role at First Baptist Church and some of the history that led up to the Board’s decision. As most of you are aware when I arrived at First Baptist Church the congregation was dwindling and the church was headed for eventual closure. In a short period of time we began to see tremendous growth in the church which made me and many others feel thankful and blessed. In a short period of time classrooms that did not have children in them for a number of years were filling up with children, other parts of the building that had not been used in years were now needing to be utilized as a result of our growth. New members began stepping up willing to serve on boards and in various areas within the church. Changes began to be made to maximize our growth and meet the needs of the growing congregation. The majority of our membership was genuinely excited about the growth and new hope for the future of the church, however, as you recall there were some who were unhappy with new members joining the church, changes that were being made and my performance in general as pastor. As a result a small group decided to forgo the mechanisms that we have in place for dealing with conflicts or disagreements within the church and elected to hire a local attorney and aired their grievances in a letter to the Watertown Daily Times.

The Board passed a resolution on May 21st 2006 reprimanding those individuals and their actions, encouraged them to avail themselves to our in house mechanisms for expressing concerns and complaints rather than utilizing the local media and acknowledged many of their actions as detrimental to the health and vitality of the church. Since the May 21st resolution the Board has been aware that several of those individuals continued to engage in activities the Board viewed as detrimental to the church family. As stated in the Board’s August 19th press release the reasons for this most recent decision was, “multifaceted and the scriptural rules concerning women teaching men in a church setting was only a small aspect of that decision. Christian courtesy motivates us to refrain from making any public accusations against her.”

We had originally intended to include the various multifaceted reasons for the dismissal in our corresponds however after legal review it was recommended that we refrain from including issues that could be construed as slander and stick with “spiritual issues” that govern a church, which the courts have historically stayed out of. With threats of lawsuits in the past we wanted to try hard to not go down that road again. I am sure you can understand why we would desire to exercise caution. As Pastor of the First Baptist Church I take very seriously my responsibilities to watch over the congregation and I also take very seriously proclaiming scripture as the truth and applicable for all situations of life and containing the blueprints for how we should structure our church corporately. I believe based on the consistent teaching of scripture that there are qualifications for both men and women teaching spiritual matters within the church. These qualifications do not mean that one is superior or more important than another it only means that God has a special plan for each of us in accomplishing His work within the church setting. I believe that as a Pastor I will ultimately stand before God and give an account of how I proclaimed and enforced His word within the church setting especially. Now I am fully aware that not everyone ascribes to my view of the scriptures but I would never vilify them for having a different religious view and I would hope that if you do hold a different view that you would extend to me the same courtesy. I want you to know that my desire is to not hurt anyone or to belittle anyone but only to ensure that the scripture is upheld in our church and not compromised. Now having said all of this I am heartbroken that this situation has created pain in the lives of many in our community and I am truly sorry for that. I also think that it is unfortunate that this situation within our church came to a head the way that it did and that we were not able to work through it more effectively within our church and that it became a public debate. I am also sorry for that however I will remain prayerful that the various discussions will lead to spiritual growth for many.

Many have drawn conclusions as to how this issue applies to my role as a Watertown City Councilmember. My belief is that the qualifications for both men and women teaching spiritual matters in a church setting end at the church door, period. Now let me explain my position of the role of women in society especially because that is where many of the discussions have centered and some false accusations have been made that need correction. I believe that a woman can perform any job and fulfill any responsibility that she desires to. Growing up I was primarily educated by the Sisters of Saint Joseph and I like to believe that they did a really good job; at least they did the best they could with the pupil in me they had to work with. I have fond memories of their instructions and they have my genuine and enduring gratitude.

As you are aware we have a female city manager, Mary Corriveau. Each year the council is required to complete a comprehensive review of the City Manager’s performance and if you will recall typically it has been I who has given her some of the highest accolades. If I felt any other way than believing that women can perform any job and fulfill and responsibility that they desire to certainly those views would have been reflected in my review. I believe the Mary Corriveau is one of the best City Managers that we have had and I am thankful for her hard work and dedication to our community. In addition to Mary Corriveau we have a number of female employees that serve in various capacities in our city. I can tell you that they are good, dedicated employees who put in long hours to the benefit of the City of Watertown and I am grateful for their service.

I have a number of female acquaintances and friends that work in our business community, in the military and in other professional situations that I have always treated with respect and with the utmost regards. I have supported many of them in their professional endeavors and will continue to conduct myself in the same manner.

In my heart I know that each of you know me and that I have continually proven to you over the years that we have been together that I treat both men and woman as equals and that I work hard to be fair with all to the best of my ability and try to conduct my affairs with character and integrity.

For those of you who have given me the benefit of the doubt and have stood by me I am truly grateful for your support and friendship. For those of you who have had doubts I certainly understand and I sincerely hope that this correspondence has clarified things for you and if further clarification is needed please don’t hesitate to contact me and I would be happy to give further explanation.

This has certainly been a learning experience for me and from the bottom of my heart I thank you for your understanding and continued trust as we move forward together to accomplish positive goals for our community.

Very truly yours,


Timothy R. LaBouf

[shadowknows69]

20. If someone has some large server space I could upload video to

I could post my interview with him.

[Bill McBlueState]

21. No, they definitely ARE believers.

They're following what it says in the Bible about women not speaking in church. Churches that allow women to speak are "cherry-picking" by ignoring that particular verse. And of course, all believers have to cherry-pick. The Bible has too many contradictions and inconsistencies not to be cherry-picked.

You don't get to shove these miscreants off on the rest of us.

[Generic Other]

23. And why didn't his God see fit to strike her with lightning in 54 years?

Seems like the pastor should consider whipping her in the stocks as well. Shame on her for putting herself above a man.

The sad thing is that women CHOOSE this lifestyle. Kinky if you ask me.

[NoAmericanTaliban]

26. Don't some Christo-Fascist still believe in stoning sinners

I don't mean in the fun way either. If they want to believe in the ol school bible - then they should believe in all of it. They just want to pick & choose their sins. I know adultery & divorce are sins, but the Baptist seem to almost have a monopoly on that. Oh, silly me - I almost forgot that when men commit those crimes it not a sin - at least as long as they are republicans.

[Greylyn58]

33. That bothers me, too

when women allow themselves to treated as less than the men around them. To me, it's nothing short of abuse. Mental abuse.

[qanda]

25. I visited a church that was like that

They people seemed so nice until they told me that women could not teach anyone but the children. I told them they had lost their minds. My mother is a pastor and so I wasn't having it. Apparently, there are many churches that practice this and far too many women who are willing to go along with it.

[IronLionZion]

29. I was pleasantly surprised when I saw women pastors

when I occasionaly went to Protestant churches with friends. I'm Catholic and we don't have women priests. The good thing about churches and religions is that you can usually find one you can agree with...or just start your own!

[Triana]

28. One word: Taliban (n/t)

[Nikki Stone 1]

38. You beat me to it

nt

[Cleita]

30. I can't disagree with you, but maybe the way to handle this

is for the congregation to back up the teacher and pressure the pastor to rescind his decision. If he doesn't see the light, boycott the church. If appealing to his sense of right and wrong doesn't work, then maybe the empty collection plates will.

[warrens]

31. Since when does one of the capos speak for la famiglia?

Jeez, I always thought Paul was a normal human. Since when does he get to say what goes?

(Anyone who believes in a literal sense every word in a book that was written by a bunch of religious fanatics 2000 years ago, then rewritten by a pack of fascists every couple of centuries since then really has mental problems anyway.)

[Skarbrowe]

32. This crap makes me physically ill. Why do women fall for this

garbage. I have family that spouted out this bile to me. I would join any "resistance" necessary to fight this brain dead belief if it ever became some sick law of the land. WOMEN! You give life. You make babies! If anyone or anything should be worshiped it should be you. Personally, I'm fine with men and women being equal and loving each other as partners in experiencing life on earth. We are all human with none being better or closer to any "God" than any other human. After making a serious attempt to respect religions all over the world, I just get fed up with this male power trip fantasy of keeping women down. It's repulsive.


Bad subject for me. Ha!

edited for many errors made out of being p'od.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

34. an easy answer

all organized religions suck

[Greylyn58]

35. I don't know if I agree that all

organized religion suck, but I think a large majority does.

That's one of the reasons I don't go to church anymore. I became fed-up with the politics and petty fights that I've been witnessed to just in my church. I've also heard the stories of what has occurred in other churches.

It's very sad.

[lukasahero]

37. Shouldn't the question be: why do men behave like this?

What did "women" fall for? This woman was a teacher for 54 years. I'm guessing that means she's not exactly in fighting shape so what do you think she should do to exact revenge over this?

Also, this here particular woman responding to your post, don't make babies. Perhaps you could consider valuing us for something we offer more than that - our time, our talents, our skills and our humanity. And yeah, I know you're female (per your profile) but check out your own words: "WOMEN! You give life. You make babies!" Just saying, not all of us do, or want to. We still deserve to be valued.

Oh and yeah, although you didn't offer such in your post and no one will ever call you on it, here's the requisite disclaimer needed here whenever speaking of the male part of the population: of course I meant "some men".