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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:42 AM
Original message
MPs call for Canada to drop Hezbollah from terror list
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 08:20 AM by tuvor
BENT JBAIL, Lebanon - It would aid the cause of peace if Canada dropped Hezbollah from a list of banned terrorist organizations, according to two Canadian MPs now on a fact-finding mission to Lebanon.

When asked if he was in favour of Hezbollah being taken off the terror list, Etobicoke Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj said: ''Yes, I would be.'' He likened the situation in the Middle East to Northern Ireland, where ''if there wasn't the possibility for London to negotiate with the IRA, you'd still have bombings....

''Hezbollah has a political wing. They have members of parliament. They have two cabinet ministers. You want to encourage politicians in this military organization so that the centre of gravity shifts to them.''

New Democrat Peggy Nash, who represents the Toronto riding of Parkdale-High Park, said her discussions in Lebanon had led her to believe ''that it is just not helpful to label them a terrorist organization.

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/politics/story.html?i...

(Crossposted in Canada forum. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... )
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. That's a grotesque misrepresentation of the NI peace process.
The situations are very different, and the entire point was that we negotiated with Sinn Fein, the IRA's political wing, and never stopped considering the IRA a terrorist organisation. In fact, I believe these MPs have misunderstood their own country's position: most Western states do NOT regard the political wing of Hezbollah as a terrorist organisation, they specifically condemn the Hezbollah ESO, the particularly nasty part that operates (apparently) almost directly under control of the Iranian secret services. I know that this distinction is made in the UK and Australia, and I would be surprised if that was not the case in Canada as well.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. But the Neocons controlling the U.S. refuse to allow negotiations because
it will collapse the card house "war on terror" they have created -- thus, removing loaded terms from political parties will allow diplomacy to succeed (which the Neocons do not want to succeed).
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. No, I think the Canadian MPs are correct about their government's position
and the UK and Australia are unusual in defferentiating between Hizbollah and its ESO. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Designation_as_a... , with links to the relevant government websites.
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oc2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. That is the right course to take, Hezbollah is politcal movement, and we

Should see what it stands for, we may not agree on all of its platform, but in general it is extremely ignorant and stupid to label all people there as terrorists. although that is exactly what this right wing christo-zionist government wants to do, and the democratic party is not much better.

There is just too much money in the Democratic party from foreign organization like AIPAC, which the Democrats must stear clear of.
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
4. I'm sorry that's ridiculous
They might be helping the lebanese to rebuild, and have a political wing...but they also commit and engage in terrorist acts against Israel. Yes, they have denounced numerous other terrorist actions including the attack on the WTC (though not the Pentagon) on 9/11 and others...

However, they have actively engaged in murder, kidnapping, hijackings and bombings against innocent Israeli citizens, for the purpose of getting Israel out of Lebanon. What other definition of terrorism is there? They have tried to terrorize Israel into doing what they want by threatening their civilians. Just because Nasrallah has said that killing American's is wrong doesn't make him not a terrorist. He's said it's fine to kill Israelis. It's a terrorist organziation.

Also before people jump on me as some sort of Israeli PR Hack, I'll put out there that I'm an Arab and generally take the position of the other Arabs on most cases involving disputes between Israel, but I'm also non-violent. For the Israeli supporters out there...don't let it be said that there aren't any Arabs denouncing this as ridiculous. It is.

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Not according to most of the world....
Only 3 countries have them listed as a terrorist organization, without equivocation, and they are: the US, Israel and Canada. Even the UK separates out the armed melitia wing from the political wing. Canada should, at the very least, separate the two as well if not remove them entirely.

"The United Nations Deputy Secretary-General, Mark Malloch Brown, contested characterisations of the Lebanese militia as a terrorist organisation in the mould of al-Qaeda<19> and stated that the United States and the international community must respect Hezbollah as a political party, not a terrorist organization <20>. The United States, Canada and Israel consider Hezbollah a terrorist organization, claiming that the organization initiates attacks against civilians and ideologically supports such attacks by other similar organizations. The United Kingdom, Australia and the Netherlands officially list only the External Security Organization of Hezbollah (ESO) as a proscribed organisation.<21><22><23>. The European Union does not list Hezbollah as a 'terrorist organization',<24> but does list Imad Mugniyah,<25> who is widely believed to be heading the international branch of the Hezbollah. Along with most other countries Russia does not list Hezbollah as a terrorist organization<26>, but it does list other radical Islamic Shi'a groups, such as Islamic Jihad,<27> as well as al-Qaeda. (See Designation As A Terrorist Organization.)"

http://www.answers.com/topic/hezbollah



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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Russia doesn't list them because they're not targeted
Russia only lists groups as terrorist organizations if they themselves are one of the targets of said groups. Since Hezbollah claims to only attack Israel, or Israeli insterests, Russia won't list them as a terrorist group.

I can't speak for the rest, however to separate out the political wing from the terrorist wing seems absurd to me. By all indications they're very closely connected and are truly one organization. Whether it's the relief wing, or the terrorist wing, or the political wing...They get their funding and orders from the same place.

If there was a branch of Al Qaeda that recieved it's funding from Al Qaeda and it's orders from Osama bin Laden himself, and they used that money and orders to form a political party in Iraq called the "Al Qaeda Party", what would people say to that? It's the same thing essentially.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. They don't target the U.S. either.
And before you start recounting CNN's history of the 1983 bombing, perhaps you didn't know that CNN conveniently omitted the fact that they repeatedly denied any involvement while another group has repeatedly claimed responsbility for it.
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. I realize that
Nasrallah has openly condemmed any attacks on american civilians, including the WTC 9/11 attack (but not the Pentagon attack). He's spoken about it on a few occasions.

The difference is that the U.S. doesn't limit it's list of terrorist organizations to ones that specifically attack us, but ones that attack anyone using terrorist means.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. No, if that were the case, the list would be filled with non-Muslim groups
and non-Arab groups. The definition is far less well-defined than that -- in fact, it is probably a secret how they (who? someone?) determine who is "terrorist" -- but something the world sees through like a bright shining lie.
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gula Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. And just what business does Israel have to be in
Lebanon?

"However, they have actively engaged in murder, kidnapping, hijackings and bombings against innocent Israeli citizens, for the purpose of getting Israel out of Lebanon."
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. They don't
That's not the point though.

I'm not on Israel's side here, but I'm not on Hezbollah's either. Hezbollah fighting Israeli soldiers inside Lebanon is not terrorism. Sending suicide bombers into Israel to specifically kill civilians is.
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gula Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. As is the killing of innocent Lebanese/Palestinians
by Israel.
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. So...I'm sorry...
Are you saying that an organization that sends people to kill civilians is a terrorist organization, or not?
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gula Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. They both are
Israel commits war crimes, Hezbollah commits terrorist acts: end result of both unforgiveable death and destruction.
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. So do you agree that Hezbollah should be listed as a terrorist org?
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gula Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Answer in my post 11
"splitting the political from the militant wing of both Hetzbollah and Hamas would appear the logical option"
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Do governments count too, or not?
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I would say they do
If a government sponsors or actively engages in acts which specifically target civilians with the goal of creating fear and terror by killing or hurting them, then I would say they should also be labeled a terrorist organization.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Agreed -- even when they do so behind the canard of "human shields" or
the bizarre lie that, in its war against a civlian population, the "enemy" is hiding amongst civilians.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. How about Likud?
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boolean Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Stop believing the media
Did you watch that video of the interview of George Galloway? It was posted a few weeks ago.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
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gula Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
11. Why can't I shake the feeling that the real question underlying
this whole question is: do our gouvernments really want democracy in the ME or do they want Israeli supremacy.

If the former then splitting the political from the militant wing of both Hetzbollah and Hamas would appear the logical option. Support the former especially the legitimately elected members of parliament and condemn the latter. I utterly fail to see how kidnapping Hamas parliamentarians is going to help Israel in any way.

If it is the latter, I have no answer.

Sooner or later ALL of these parties will have to find an accomodation or the bloodshed will go on for generations.
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