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what is "fat acceptance"/"fat liberation"?

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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 10:52 PM
Original message
what is "fat acceptance"/"fat liberation"?
:shrug:
I was at a progressive event today and besides all the usual suspects, I saw a bunch of "fat acceptance" groups...

Are they encouraging obesity -I don't get it? I mean I get the whole "anorexic media images" thing -I get all the stuff thats tied to maintream feminism.
But the people I met seemed to claim that there is NO connection between body weight and health :shrug:

What is this all about? They referred me to this blog:
http://www.bigfatblog.com

Apparently a fat liberation movement has been in action for years. I was completely taken by surprise. Thought the good folks here might know what this is all about :shrug:?
To be honest I thought it was a joke at first but apparently its not!
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nobody is encouraging obesity, it's uncomfortable.
However, when it happens, there is little we can do about it. 90% of people who lose weigt by any means including gastric surgeries will gain it back within five years, often increasing their weight in the process. We have no long term treatment and no cure for obesity.

The acceptance movement is meant to silence the busybodies who think they know more than anyone else does and who feel compelled to comment on a stranger's body type, usually in the most insulting manner you can possibly imagine.

It's called MANNERS, folks, and that's what this movement is all about.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. well thats not me
"comment on a stranger's body type, usually in the most insulting manner you can possibly imagine"

:)
But I talked to two of the people in charge and they really pushed the idea that body size has nothing to do with health. I have to say, I do find that a little hard to believe :shrug:.
They referred me to a ton of literature on the subject-I wanted to know if this is a legit. lefty movement or what??!!!
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Kickoutthejams23 Donating Member (354 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Oh it's legit... That doesn't mean you have to support them.
Edited on Sun Aug-20-06 11:34 PM by Kickoutthejams23
"The following message has no fat related puns or jokes. This has been done consciously despite the fact that the writer is often a snarky jerk"

I read the blog and they don't like fat jokes or comments (perhaps unintentional) about weight.

Examples include unfortunate jokes made about a gang of obese woman that stole devil dogs milk and other foodstuffs.

Patients forced to use zoo equipment because they can't fit on a regular cat-scan bed.

People and publications that claim that fat equals unhealthy

Announcements of new Layne Bryant store openings.

Needless to say this this is a movement that has grown in size the last few years. (Ah crap I was doing so well :evilfrown: )

Anyway IMHO the last thing we need is another rights group. Truth be told it's gotten a bit silly. They feel fat doesn't equal lazy. and there some truth to that but there are plenty of people of weight that are that way through personal decisions. I see overweight people at big box stores all the time riding around in those personal powered people movers and their baskets are not exactly filled with fruits and vegetables.

Their claims that fat is healthy is simply feel good bad science.

Society puts a lot of pressure on people to be thin and there may be good reason for that. Fat people cost society a lot of money in health care costs social, security payments etc. Perhaps health insurance should cost more for the obese the way car insurance costs more for bad drivers?

I feel they should be able to go through life without taunting or abuse the same as any American. But I draw the line at special treatment, rights and victim-hood.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The site did strike me as a little nutty !/nt
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SheWhoMustBeObeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Like any ideology, it has its extremists
One can be obese and not have diabetes, heart disease or other conditions that are attributed to obesity - even though the same conditions occur in people of average weight. One can be obese and active, participate in sports and all the other activities enjoyed by people of all sizes.

But just as extreme height takes its toll on the body's limitations, extreme girth eventually has an effect on aging joints and circulation. My impression of fat activists is that they are generally young enough not to have experienced the effects of aging on an obese physique.

On the other hand, people who are proactive about their health and wellbeing can maintain youthful healthiness far longer than those who are not, regardless of weight. One doesn't have to be thin to be involved in a wellness lifestyle. These activists would probably be living at the vanguard of personal wellness regardless of their size.





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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. Fat people who are active are in much better shape
than thin people who are sitting on their butts.

They're finding some very weird things in large scale studies being done. First, very thin people have a greater chance of dying from heart disease than overweight people, something I saw in clinical practice that was always a jaw dropper; that there is more risk for type II diabetes in the overweight, but if they escape it, they're about as healthy as anyone else.

Extreme thinness seems to be at least as much a risk to health as morbid obesity, and possibly much more so. Nobody out there will say that carrying 300+ pounds on a skeleton designed to carry under 200 pounds is a good idea. However, seeing the moderately overweight as some sort of walking healthcare time bomb is completely inaccurate.

Now if only clothing manufactures will stop designing for hat racks and start designing for real people, we'll be getting somewhere.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #24
55. thinness as a risk factor
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 01:22 AM by pitohui
i've had a number of my thin friends die in their 50s and it's a little scary

fat people get to ther 60s and 70s at least!

warpy do you think it is because most people who are thin in their 50s, it's because they smoke? that is what i tell myself anyway
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Kindigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Thin will become the next "anti"-campaign...
after they're done with the smokers.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. Who is "they?"
"They" sound evil. Are They the same They occupying Iraq, or is this the They who wants transparency in voting? Be more clear.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. An excuse not to exercise
I do it too. It goes like this: "I'm too tired to go to the gym today. No worries, I'll go tomorrow." I just haven't labelled this a movement. I still just call it procrastination.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. How ironic...LACK of movement is called a Movement!
:rofl:
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. ROFL
Oh, the movement is fast enough when the pie comes out...
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cracksquirrel Donating Member (251 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
101. Oh man...
I want to personally thank you for making that joke before I did! ^ ^
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
21. Can I join your procrastination movement?
Maybe tommorow? Or next week...Meh, Sounds like alot of paperwork. I'll get to it later.
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niallmac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. Interesting site.
I agree with their focus on prejudice in the media etc toward fat people. They don't seem
to shy away from the term 'fat' either instead of creating some politicaly correct jargon.
On the other hand there is an article about how flawed the Body Mass Index is. To that
I say fine, make a better reference for health professionals to use. I am not aware of any
other than the BMI.
One author reviews an article in which as the author says 'they go down that tired "eat less
exercise more path" again.'

So seems like the site is fighting prejudice (a good thing) and BS ing themselves all at the same time.

I don't have a problem with 'fat people' I just have a problem with creative science
to support a point of view. Controlling diabetes, hypertension, coronary artery disease
e.g. is a lot easier when that 'tired old' routine of diet and exercise is part of the program.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. Ummm... yeah, it's a movement...
of sorts, and there was a spate of TV appearances with them a while back. May still be some between the FatBuster and AbRoller commercials.

I'm biting my tongure here-- chewing it into a bloody stump, actually-- because this has been the subject of some really hefty (oops!) flamewars on DU in the not so distant past.

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PBass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. "I was at a progressive event today and besides all the usual suspects..."
I have to admit that I hate going to a rally, and it turns out to be a big hodge podge of other groups there flying their own (way way off topic) banners.

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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
10. no, not encouraging obesity
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 12:16 AM by Skittles
I think it has more to do with not endangering one's health by yo-yo dieting - focusing on being healthy instead of being thin - and stopping discrimination and ridicule.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
12. As an overweight person....
I can tell you firsthand what it's like to be looked down upon by friends and acquaintances, to go into a job interview as #1 on their list and suddenly move down to the bottom of the list once they see you, to have strangers stare at you anyplace you go. It's not just the media, folks. It's people, individuals, and I'm sure some of them are the people here at DU.

I'm not even that heavy - I'm overweight, but not one of those riding around in motorized carts as one person listed here as an example of "those lazy fat people" (I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of the post). Yeah, I've seen those people in stores too, but they are the minority, not the majority and not a viable excuse for the discrimination that occurs. Many overweight people are that way because of medical issues. Either they have a condition that causes them to gain the weight or they are on medication that does (as I am). Many others are depressed - a mental not physical cause, but a medical condition nonetheless and one that's an epidemic in our country.

Almost no one overeats just because they want to or are lazy - they have a need to - overeating is against our biological make-up and there's always a reason for it. And, here's something you may not know - not all overweight people overeat. My mother, for example, has metabolism problems and despite the fact that she eats all healthy foods in small regulated portions, she is twice her normal weight - and this will never change.

Does there need to be a movement? Unfortunately, yes. I don't agree with promotion of the idea that it's not unhealthy to be overweight. But, I think there needs to be an education of the American public as to why people are overweight. It would lower the incidence of abuse, intolerance and prejudice of the overweight. It would also educate some who are overweight about possible reasons behind their situation and some of the solutions out there for them.
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dogfacedboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. As a formerly over weight person, I say boo hoo hoo!
In February of this year, I went in for a physical exam, and was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes.
I was prescribed medication, told to go on a healthy diet, and told to exercise more. At the time I weighed 257lbs(I'm a 6'2", 47 yo male). My diet is nothing more than that little 'food pyramid',
and I consume 2000 calories per day. In fact, it's the diet everyone should be living by. I go to the local YMCA 2- 3 times a week for a one hour workout each time. I take my meds as directed. I went for another check-up on August 14th. I now weigh 198lbs, my blood sugar levels are 'normal', and my blood pressure has even gone down a bit(my BP wasn't an issue, but this still made the Doc happy). The Doc says that if everything looks this good in 6 more months, He's going to take me off the meds for a test run without them. Most importantly, I feel great! I'm in the best shape I've ever been in. I didn't even know that I didn't feel good until I made these changes.

Personally, I didn't really have any 'body image issues'. I knew all along that I needed to get into better shape. Deep down inside, we all know we need to take better care of ourselves. My whole point here is this: If I can do it, anyone can. I'm not an extremely motivated person in this area, yet I've met with success as far as the changes I neede to make.

Instead of forming a pity party, everyone just needs to move around more, and eat right.
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AndreaCG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. You sound like a particularly obnoxious ex-smoker
Except the ex-smoker at least is not polluting the air and contributing to second hand smoke anymore like active smokers do. My fat won't give you a heart attack.

And if you READ the above comments you would see that there are different reasons people are overweight. Some is genetic and very difficult if not impossible to control.

Good luck in keeping the weight off. I hope you can find it in your heart to be less judgmental of those who don't.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. As AZblue has said, some people are overweight because of
medical conditions, and some because of meds that cause weight gain.
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. I had a doctor tell me that diabetes was less of an on / off
condition and more of a range of impairment. He really described the disease in a different way than I had heard it described elsewhere. He said that anyone who is more than 30 pounds overweight is in an insulin-resistant state. My father was diagnosed as borderline diabetic and he avoided medication with diet and exercise. So your story is one more for that collection.

But I also wanted to share something else with you. There are people with metabolic issues which lead to weight gain inspite of very low calorie intake:

One of Atkinsons most memorable patients was Janet S., a bright, funny 25-year-old who weighed 348 pounds when she finally made her way to U.C.L.A. in 1975. In exchange for agreeing to be hospitalized for three months so scientists could study them, Janet and the other obese research subjects (30 in all) each received a free intestinal bypass. During the three months of presurgical study, the dietitian on the research team calculated how many calories it should take for a 5-foot-6-inch woman like Janet to maintain a weight of 348. They fed her exactly that many calories no more, no less. She dutifully ate what she was told, and she gained 12 pounds in two weeks almost a pound a day.

I dont think Id ever gained that much weight that quickly, recalled Janet, who asked me not to use her full name because she didnt want people to know how fat she had once been. The doctors accused her of sneaking snacks into the hospital. But I told them, Im gaining weight because youre feeding me a tremendous amount of food!

The experience with Janet was an early inkling that traditional ideas about obesity were incomplete. Researchers and public-health officials have long understood that to maintain a given weight, energy in (calories consumed) must equal energy out (calories expended). But then they learned that genes were important, too, and that for some people, like Janet, this formula was tilted in a direction that led to weight gain. Since the discovery of the first obesity gene in 1994, scientists have found about 50 genes involved in obesity. Some of them determine how individuals lay down fat and metabolize energy stores. Others regulate how much people want to eat in the first place, how they know when theyve had enough and how likely they are to use up calories through activities ranging from fidgeting to running marathons. People like Janet, who can get fat on very little fuel, may be genetically programmed to survive in harsher environments. When the human species got its start, it was an advantage to be efficient. Today, when food is plentiful, it is a hazard.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/13/magazine/13obesity.ht...

That article goes on to talk at length about viral theories. But what is clear so far is that there are people who are far less able to influence their body size due to factors we are only beginning to understand.


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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #14
50. You just proved my point.
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 01:12 AM by AZBlue
About abuse and prejudice against overweight people.

Thank you.
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Ex Lion Tamer Donating Member (445 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
104. Congratulations!
I have a very good friend who, over the last two years, has done the same thing. The change is remarkable.

And I have no doubt that he will remain a healthy weight: he's made a lifestyle change just as you have.

Keep it up.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. With all the medical issues, depression, metabolism, and needs
It's a wonder that anyone is overweight anymore from eating too much and not exercising enough!

No, no. There is never anything one can do about anything. One is merely a passive ball pushed around the cosmos by forces outside one's control. This little fairy tale is especially useful when engaging in the huge calorie burning activity known as fucking whining.
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AndreaCG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. I wonder why you post here
You have all the compassion of a Republican.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. Blah blah blah
It's predictable and childish to compare anyone who doesn't agree with you to the Republican boogeyman.

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Kickoutthejams23 Donating Member (354 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. He makes a point however crude.
I am also am tired who claim "forces beyond their control" People blame all sorts of things for their obesity from childhood molestation to McDonald's. My first reaction is sympathy and you poor dearism, but my life experience has shown me that more often than not the only thing that interrupts their excuses is the Twinkies they are stuffing into their mouths.

There are thousands of people on Social Security disability due to weight and weight related diseases. What percentage of them do you think use all this Government funded free time to exercise and get back top health so they can rejoin society. And what percentage sit on the couch watching Springer eating Doritoes bemoaning their unavoidable fate.

I am a progressive because I feel that adults should be treated as such. I have no problem being told by someone who is stout that "I'm happy with who I am. I'm okay being fat." Heck I smoke, can't handle alcohol, and could lose a few pounds myself. But when you claim that a healthy diet and exercise won't help you because your "special" I am going to call you on your S*$t.

I have never met a fat Vegan. (I'm sure there are a few but they are rare)

And to be more direct when one looks at Concentration Camp photos there wasn't one tubby jew in the back claiming "No matter what I do I can't lose an ounce" :nopity: :sarcasm:
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #35
52. And you just proved my point too!
About abuse and prejudice against overweight people.

Thank you.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #52
69. It's very easy to run around saying that everybody who disagrees
with you has "proved" your "point."

It's a remarkably lazy way to argue in public, but it does have the advantage of being easy, I guess.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
85. You're big on 'personal responsibility', aren't you?
I've read your posts on another thread about welfare moms having lots of kids.

Being angry at individual people, or even groups which don't have power is a waste of time and falls right into the Repuke trap. Our efforts are far better spent tackling the big money wasters in this country, i.e. repukes and their cronies: corporate welfare, Halliburton, oil companies, and the ultra-rich who are making out like bandits while the majority of Americans suffer.

You know, life isn't as easy as you think. Someday you may face a problem you can't solve with 'determination' or 'willpower'. I hope that when that happens, the people around you are more sensitive and compassionate than you are.
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Kickoutthejams23 Donating Member (354 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #85
106. When it comes to eating or having kids... yeah.
The problem isn't the abstract. It is the people you meet in real life. I'm 6' 2" and 225 pounds. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would consider me fat. (and rightfully so) There are people that are obese for medical reasons. I am not one of them (I'm obese due to a conspiracy by the Prime Rib and Sour Cream industries.) People who are obese due to medical conditions are generally woman over 35 under 5' 7"" and under 225 pounds. Anyone tipping the scales above 300 pounds didn't get that way solely because of a medical condition. The protest myself and other posters have is not against obese people. It is against the victimhood this group is trying to embrace. The false concept that they have no control over their own weight. And the very dangerous concept that morbid obesity is healthy. This isn't opinion this is science. There is grey areas to be sure but if you are carrying an extra 100 pounds of fat you will pay the price medically. Even if you control very little in your life you should be responsible for what you put into your own body.


As for babies. If I get a woman pregnant I believe that it is my responsibility to provide both emotionally and financially for that child. That is my personal responsibility. And yes I'm big on that. If all the men in this country took personal responsibility for their own children we wouldn't need many of the programs we have now.

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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #20
51. You just proved my point.
About abuse and prejudice against overweight people.

Thank you.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #51
68. Keep belieiving that, if it makes you feel better
:eyes:
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
59. FWIW...
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 05:20 AM by skids
I'm one thin guy who doesn't think obese people are loads of crap. Even if I did, I wouldn't go around on the Internet yelling that at them and belittling their problems. The fact is that many of my best friends are obese, and I know full well from those long term friendships exactly how many factors weigh on the obese and trap them into the cycles they reside in.

IIRC, my friends, by the way, think "fat acceptance" is an utter load of crap and often embark on diets, but end up rebounding eventually. I guess that might come as a surprise to the numerous folks here who obviously have no grasp of the challenged you face. (Here's a clue folks -- if you want to get a glimmer of what it feels like, put on 3 sweaters in the summer, watch a really depressing movie or two -- maybe take some melatonin and a non-non-drowsy allergy pill to amplify the depression, and then walk around for the rest of the day carrying a 75 pound bag of sugar under each arm. See how much "willpower" you have at the end of the day.)

Here's a bright side for you: you've got a built-in test of character. Me, I have to dress down and keep my hair mangy to ward off snobs, assholes, and piss ants. You, you can be confident that of the people that respond positively to you, a large portion of them are genuinely good souls. Screw the rest, take it from me they are not worth knowing.

I wish you the best luck in beating back your problems, and if you ever meet me, I won't look at you funny. Unless your T-shirt is way too small. ;-)


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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
13. I'm not too worried or perplexed about physical variations
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 12:46 AM by John Q. Citizen
within a population. It's the Freedom for Dumb shits Brigade and the Ignorance is Bliss Lobby that I can't understand.

Of course companies like McDonald's seem to be implicated in both sectors, so maybe there is a reason for it.

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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:41 AM
Response to Original message
15. I just love the fact that certain department store chains now list size 10
as a PLUS size (anybody remember when it used to be size 20?)
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Kindigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I used to be a ten.....
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 06:51 AM by dragndust
now I'm a size five, and I didn't have to do a thing.

My point above (#4) turned into a non-point when I realized I was too tired to write. I'm a 5'8, 40 something, size 5, with 3 kids. I have been called a "tramp" twice in the past month by two very large 20 somethings.

I can only think of one reason...the same reason a non-smoker thinks they can tell a smoker "you stink", and get away with it.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
22. A rationalization.
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 09:20 AM by Tesha
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
23. With few exceptions, people
who so desire can lose excess weight. Is it harder for some people than for others? You bet.

I do not ever make fun of obese people nor do I think it's acceptable. But I also feel it's wearing blinders to think you can be obese and be very healthy.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
46. It's just not true for women over 35.
I spent every last penny I had on 25 sessions with a personal trainer and a nutritionist, as I've gained 40 pounds in the past 6 years WHILE DIETING AND EXERCISING. I was supposed to lose about 20 pounds of fat and gain 9 pounds of muscle. I lost 5 pounds of fat and gained 6 pounds of muscle. I am still the exact same dress size.

Am I still going to work out and eat right even though it has little to no effect on my appearance? Yes. Do I understand why people get frustrated. Yes. I have spent the past 10 years on popular (Atkins, South Beach) and even extreme diets (one year I fasted so many times that by the end of the year, I calculated that I almost did not eat for 3 months).

It is extremely difficult for many women over 35 to lose weight, especially after a lifetime of dieting. Do you think that all the young skinny girls are just more moral and less gluttenous than older women? No. Metabolic rates change and there is little you can do about it except stay healthy for your body type.

If we focused on HEALTH rather than WEIGHT, it'd make a lot more sense.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
25. These people are in denial about thier weight problem.
And before I am bashed for hating fat people, I AM a fat person.
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JitterbugPerfume Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
29. I resent them
I went through a serious depression and gained a lot of weight. I have worked like a demon to get it down to an acceptable weight for my self esteem ,as well as my health. I do not judge over weight people (being one myself) but I sure as hell will not accept it
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
30. It's about letting people be what they want
the fact is, people that are fat are people that are fat. That's it. There isn't anything else to it. Yet it has become the ultimate insult lately to be called fat and it implies every negative stereotype in the book for some people.

Fine. I'm fat. Accept it. That's what it means.
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Throd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
32. Eat less, move more. n/t
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #32
84. Um, if it were as simple as that...
we wouldn't have a multi-billion dollar diet industry in this country.

Being overweight, like everything else in life, is very complicated and can't be reduced to one diet, or one exercise plan, or one slogan.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
33. "Fat Liberation" = Opening Your Belt
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Conan_The_Barbarian Donating Member (404 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #33
65. YES!
best comment made so far!
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
36. Mandatory sex with "overweight" (fat) people; BBWs in Vogue!
In the name of the "I am a victim" strain of advanced political correctness, all people will be required to find overweight people attractive, and further will be required to fulfill a quota of sex acts with overweight people in order to physically express "acceptance."
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TimeChaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. You know, it's fine if you don't find me attractive
But really, if a person's overweight, why do people think they're entitled to inform them how fat and ugly you find them? That's just bad manners.


I've dropped quite a few pant sizes, become more active, started eating more veggies, but I'll never really be thin. In a world were the most 'beautiful' stars look like meth addicts, it's hard enough to deal with without assholes reminding me anytime I'm out somewhere.

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JitterbugPerfume Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. that a picture of you?
you are very beautiful
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. See, this is what I don't get - the double standard and the hypocrisy
You don't want people to bash overweight people or tell them they are ugly (which is a valid point), but in the next breath you bash thin people as looking like "meth addicts".
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TimeChaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Sorry about that
I was thinking about the picture my sister showed me of Nicole Richie today. That is just an unhealthy as someone 100-200 pounds overweight.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #49
56. nicole richey is ill
that young lady has an eating disorder and i hope she gets help before she kills herself, seriously

that is not "just as unhealthy," it is much more unhealthy

young women w. eating disorders have died in their twenties, even in their teens, even the most obese person does not die of being "fat" in the way the anorexic dies of starvation, in their 60s, 70s, or 80s, yeah, their weight may contribute to the development of a disease that causes them to die -- it may or it may not

but let's get real, most of us are going to die in our 60s, 70s, and 80s even if we are lauren hutton

if we were not so looksist (there is probably a more modern word for this but i don't know it) we would acknowledge what common sense and science tells us -- being too thin kills way younger than being too fat!

getting old sucks fat or thin, yeah, if you are fat, it is hell on the joints, but guess what, being thin and having brittle bones/teeth ain't the shits either

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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. very nice
nt
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. How about the thin, perfect, muscular people who can't get a date?
Or those with disabilities?

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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #39
72. Why should ANYONE not get a date because of their looks?
Really, should people want to spend their lives with a mannequin? Do people that are overweight or ugly 'deserve' to be alone, as if they are doing something wrong and are offensive to other people? BULLSHIT! We're way too looks-obsessed in this culture, and we value reality too little.
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Kickoutthejams23 Donating Member (354 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. It's is a strange hardwired part of our evolution.
Sure much of it is cultural. But I assure you there is plenty of science to back up the fact that attractive people are more desirable mates. (Nothing inspires scientists to do research that an excuse to invite over hot chicks for "study")
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Perhaps, but
Attractiveness varies wildly from society to society and throughout history. What we have today is a kind of mass hypnosis by advertizing, telling people that a certain set of standards is more 'attractive' than others, and it a fairly new phenomenon.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. What a bizarre question.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #77
95. It's only bizarre if you're looks-obsessed and shallow.
Edited on Wed Aug-23-06 11:39 AM by EstimatedProphet
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #95
98. Hmmm... nope - it's bizarre any way you cut it.
Don't get me wrong - I can understand why a lot of people would greatly prefer that looks not be a criterion by which one's sexual attractiveness is judged. Lord knows I'd get a lot more play if that wasn't a criterion - lol!

But, really - it's just asinine. Maybe everybody should just be blinded, so there wouldn't be any "good looking" people any more? Sheesh.

People just need to get over the fact that some - through no (or little) virtue of their own, are good looking, and, all else being equal, more attractive, than others.

Do what you can for yourself, and just let it go, jealous whiny people. No need to knock other people and other abilities, just because they aren't yours.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #98
102. No, what I am talking about is the assumption that
because someone is fat/ugly/otherwise unattractive, they somehow deserve to be alone, as if what they are is an offense to other people. I see that attitude a lot, and it's really a self-absorbed way of liiking at relationships. Granted, most of the people that think that way aren't really capable of a lasting relationship anyway...
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. Oh. Ok. That's very different from what I responded to....
.. which was the claim that looks shouldn't rule a person out from getting a date. What I responded to, I still find bizarre. The last thing you said, not so much.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. I may not have been clear. Sorry.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. I think there is a difference between
seeking a bit of respect and mandatory sex etc.

My main problem with the people I spoke to was this-I got why they felt society discriminated against them etc, but they were pushing the NO correlation between weight and health very aggressively.

And secondly they seemed to be ok with making judgements about other people based on how they look :shrug:? I was questioning the scientific basis of what they were saying gently and one of them said "you should really try not dieting and starving all the time" or something like that.
It kinda pissed me off-I have never dieted in my life. I eat a reasonably healthy diet, exercise and have always been small-boned. It was rather nasty of her to assume I am some person with an eating disorder obsessed with models etc. x(.
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conflictgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. You're right, those kinds of comments are wrong
I think it's a backlash against the fat-bashing that overweight people face every day, but that doesn't make it right.

I know some people who are extremely thin, who eat more food than I do. I don't blame them for being naturally thin. I do wish that more people didn't look at me, at 25 pounds overweight, and assume that I'm constantly pigging out and never get off the couch.

It would be nice if everyone could respect people who fell at both ends of the spectrum. Of course some thin people starve themselves, and some obese people never exercise and live on HoHos and Big Macs. But I think the truth is that most people have a "setpoint weight" from which it's difficult to budge (which is not to say overweight people can't lose weight - it is to say that even with diet and exercise, not everyone can be thin), and I think there are a number of factors that scientists don't even yet understand.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. I hear ya
and I mean I realise its not symmetric at all. Fat bashing is bound to be way more prevalent than thin-bashing.
And I wasn't too miffed...its just, it makes their case a little bit harder for them to make, if they genuinely think all thin people barf all the time. I mean this is an idea that even among lefties, is going to be a hard one to make. So they need to be sure the presentation is as easy to digest as possible :).
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #36
64. Your post says a lot about you.

In the name of not knowing the meaning of "There but for fortune go I," may you and some of the other--ahem, less than compassionate posters here end up one day on SSRI's, steroid, or other meds that cause weight gain and then remember your cruel words.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #36
76. lol! It does *seem*, at times, as though that's really...
... what they're after... Talking about "standards of beauty" and what-not...
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. You are the only one who got the joke. Sad.
Everyone wants to be beautiful. But few of us are, at least according to the "ideal" of beauty promulgated by the media. But you can't really blame the media. Its a pure mammal animal male thing, guys want sexually fertile young women.

Demanding "acceptance" is spitting in the wind, trying to hold back the tide. There are lots more people than the overweight who have to deal with the fact that they are not conventionally attractive. There are the dorky, the short, those with bad skin, bad hair, the just plain ugly.

You cannot demand that the world "accept" you or respect you. Too bad, painful but true. What you can do is find the person who does think you are beautiful. Noone else's opinion matters once you've found that.

I am far from perfect. I accept that and don't go around whining that everyone has to "accept" me.
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conflictgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
41. I think the people who argue that "fat is healthy" are on the extremes
The reason for that movement is because there are people, like a former doctor of mine, who told me when I weighed 138 pounds that I was "obese" and that if I didn't lose weight, I was going to die. At 170 pounds, shortly after having a baby, I had a different doctor recommend the bariatric surgery. (I did end up losing weight on my own.) The reason for that movement is because there are websites like The Superficial where they show a picture of Kelly Clarkson or Scarlett Johanson in a bikini and call women of that size beached whales, or worse.

I don't think most people in the movement are arguing that obesity is healthy. However, when even here at DU there are people who still think it all comes down to "eat less and move more," I think that shows that there is a lot of progress that needs to be made.

I'm about 25 pounds overweight right now. I do cardio exercise 3 times a week and rarely consume more than 1400 calories a day. But I'm not losing weight. I have PCOS, which is associated with weight gain around the middle and researchers aren't exactly sure what causes it or how to fix it. They used to think birth control pills would fix it, so I was on those for a few years. That's when my weight gain really started. Now I'm on an anti-diabetes medication, because that's what current researchers think will help. I'm not continuing to gain weight, but I'm not losing it either. Most people consuming 1400 calories a day and exercising 3 times a week will lose weight. Yes, I might lose weight if I could exercise more than 3 times a week. But it doesn't explain why I know many people who don't exercise at all and consume more calories, and they're at their so-called ideal weight. Other factors are at play and I don't think anyone has really figured out what they are, certainly not the self-appointed experts on DU. What happens when you genetically modify the food supply? Why do some people get syndromes that affect metabolism, such as PCOS, and not others? When 1 in 4 people have taken antidepressants at one point (I need to find a cite for that) and many of those medications are associated with weight gain, is it possible to prevent the weight gain associated with such medications? Does the metabolism return to normal when people stop taking those meds? Nobody has all the answers to those and many other questions.

I don't necessarily agree with all the people in the fat acceptance movement. Some do take it too far. But when people say that weight loss comes down to "eat less, move more," there's obviously still work to be done.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
44. Some thoughts.
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 06:07 PM by Donald Ian Rankin
:-There are many more people in America who would be healthier if they were fatter than there are who would be healthier if they were thinner.

:-The average American is fatter than the average member of most other cultures.

:-The average American's lifestyle involves, in general, eating more (and more unhealthy) food and exercising less than most other cultures (on a personal note, when I visited my American relatives I was struck by the fact that they often used their cars for trips where most British people would have walked).

:-The modern American ideal of female beauty is not much fatter than thinner than is unhealthy, or in some cases unhealthily thin.

:-Whether the media have created this situation, or whether they've simply giving people what they want to see, if debateable.

:-Being fat is met not merely with concern, but often with contempt and ridicule.

:-Most fat characters portrayed on film or television are 2-dimensional comic steryotypes; mostly fairly contemptible ones. I know of no example of a serious film with a fat romantic lead.

:-The behaviours most people associate with being fat - eating a lot and not getting much exercise - are ones that most people disapprove of, rightly or wrongly.

:-The amount of food one can eat and the amount of exercise one needs not to become unhealthily overweight varies a lot from person to person, depending on metabolism. My mother remains thin (bordering on problematically so if she wants to do things like swim in cold water), more or less no matter how much she eats.

:-If shown two people, it is by no means possible to assume that the fatter one lives the less healthy lifestyle. There will be a correlation, but by no means a perfect one.

:-There are very few unhealthily overweight people for whom doing more and eating less would not pay dividends.

:-Most fat people have, understandably, a vested interest in their problem not being a result of doing too little and/or eating too much, but rather being some medical condition beyond their control. As such, suggesting changing this as a remedy is likely to cause offence.

:-Likewise, overweight people will, on average, attribute their weight to metabolism rather than lifestyle more than is actually the case, although of course this will not be the case for all individuals.

:-Nevertheless, for most, although not all, overweight people, it is probably the best approach.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
45. What I hear is a lot of people here saying is that many
overweight people are overweight or obsese, because of health conditions or medecine. My question in simply is: Why are there so many more overweight people now than there ever were in the past? I can accept that a minority of people are fat because of medical problems, but almost EVERY overweight person says it. I go to other countries and I don't see this trend at all. Theres a reaon there are more fat people in the U.S. than in other countries, and its not because more people in the united states have glandular problems.

Which is not to say that fat people have control over their problem. I'd have to say most of them don't. Evolution is evolution, and most of us have a propensity to eat and eat and eat....its how our bodies are built. For some of us, its a lot harder to overcome that problem. Its definitely not fair that some people have faster metabolisms, and some have slower. Its also not cool that we should use phsycial appearance to discriminate.

That being said, accepting some imperfection in oneself is important. No one is perfect. Fat acceptance groups are important, because you can't be truly happy if you don't accept who you are. Not only that, but its even harder to lose weight (if you want to lose weight) if your depressed....accepting your faults and limitations is one of the first steps in trying to achieve a goal. Its important however, that just because you accept something, it doesn't mean that you can't work towards improvement. I have many faults...I recognize them, and I accept them...but I also try to change and improve myself.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #45
54. I was thinking about the same thing last night.
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 01:21 AM by AZBlue
I think there's a couple of reasons - some are:

(1) It's far cheaper to buy a big mac meal than a healthy dinner.
(2) We don't address depression here as other countries do. Plus, we anesthetize and play denial with the everyday stresses of life, while other countries address them and deal with them. A common way to anesthetize ourselves is through food - it's in our media and everyday culture.
(3) Along the lines of #2 above, we also over-medicate ourselves, unlike other countries - and some of those medications affect our bodies to such extent as to change our metabolisms.
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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #54
60. With respect to point #1
Only if you are expecting to have it served to you. Fast food healthy food is harder (and more expensive) to come by. But if we were willing to resist the need for instant gratification,a A nutritious meal of beans, rice, and salsa with a helping or two of vegetables or fruit and a glass of water made at home, for example, can be made for less than $2.00, and if you shop carefully for less than $1.00.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #60
70. It depends on what kind of diet you need.
That would work for some body types, you are absolutely right. Unfortunately, I need a high percentage of protein in my meals and the protein in the beans wouldn't be enough. (I would actually prefer a vegetarian diet, but can't unless I want to OD on tofu.) Once you add in the chicken or beef I would need, the cost increases dramatically. And, I've seen several studies that say that the high-carb foods we all love are the reasons for the increases in obesity - many of us who are overweight need the lower carb lifestyles to maintain lower weight.
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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #70
79. It's been a long time since I bought chicken,
since my daughter has been allergic for 11+ years....but my recollection is that it is pretty cheap if you buy whole chickens and cut it up yourself (or even, generally, if you buy the less sought after pieces). When I last did serious chicken shopping it was between $.50 and $1.00/lb for whole chicken, and generally under $1.00/lb for thighs. Buy them on sale, chop, and freeze.

The protein difference between meats and vegetarian is not as large as you might think, though. A serving of kidney beans has 15 g of protein, as opposed to 21 grams for a serving of chicken (and tofu is only 10 grams/serving).

As far as carbs go, a lot of fiber lives in things which are relatively carb heavy. A healthy GI system needs lots of fiber. The processed carbs (white bread, e.g.) certainly provide little value other than empty calories (and perhaps all those injected vitamins), but well chosen carbs (whole grains, beans, brown rice, etc.) are not the enemy.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #54
61. Healthy food is WAY cheaper
Ever since I have made a decision to try to make my diet healthier, I have been spending a lot less money. Vegetable are really cheap, as is fruit. Here is what I bought for 20 bucks the other day

4 peaches, 4 nectarines, broccoli (A LOT), romaine lettuce, lean ground beef, 0% milk, asparagus, and garlic. I may have even bought some more (I can't remember any more). How much food does 20 bucks by you at McDonals? Hell, I could have made my own burgers, with garlic-friend asparagus, and fruit for desert for 5 people. How much does it cost for 5 people to eat frozen dinners or McDonalds?

I agree with your other 2 points, however.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #61
66. Most don't consider vegetarian meals.
most think of chicken, fish, and lean meats when they think healthy. Those aren't really cheaper. For example, the fattiest type of ground beef with extra fat is cheaper than the lean ground beef, and cheaper than ground turkey.
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tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #61
82. A bag of grapes cost me $10 the other day.
Seriously, it did, LOL.
I think, in addition to the cost (which people could discuss all day, either way), it's that no one knows how to plan healthy meals and are less willing to take the time to do the cooking.

Tonight, after working all day I wanted to eat, not cook (speaking of which, women working outside the home may have something to do with it too LOL!). I drove to McD's, got some, ate it, moved on with my life.

Don't do that every day. :)
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #61
86. Not true.
There are so many factors that go into how a person eats. In many poor neighborhoods, there just isn't a choice of healthy fresh food, and if you don't have a car, taking a bus to a good grocery store is just one thing too many.

And fresh food takes more energy and knowledge to prepare; if you are working two full time minimum wage jobs to just get by, you're not about to peel and slice peaches, trim and steam broccoli, wash and shred lettuce, trim and cook asparagus, and form and shape hamburger patties when you can make a 36 cent box of mac & cheese.

And that doesn't even take into account illnesses like depression, which are as debilitating as end-stage heart disease. No one who is worrying about being homeless is going to have the energy or even the inclination to eat healthy.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #45
57. two reasons
Why are there so many more overweight people now than there ever were in the past?

i know the answer to that, and you do too, if you think about it

one reason is because people live longer today and normal people gain weight with age

reason number two is because we have more medicines available today -- and a great many medicines have side effect of weight gain, most SSRIs (modern anti-depressants do, a friend gained 100 pounds on prozac and no he can't quit it, he was unable to work w.out it, better to be fat than to have no life and no hope forever), all steroids do and steroids are true wonder drugs that treat everything from horrible rashes to keeping some weight on cancer patients so they just don't vomit themselves to death during chemotherapy

our attitude toward overweight is sick, i've told the story before, but i had a friend, a dancer, who got hodgkin's disease in his 30s, the disease was cured, but because he was slim he was given steroids to take so that he wouldn't freakin die of the chemotherapy and radiation

after he was in remission my friend considered suicide because he was "fat"!!!!!! this is what our society has become, this is what we internalize, that it is better to be dead than to be 30 pounds over some B.S. ideal weight

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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #57
62. Your post makes a lot of sense.
Thank you for your response.
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conflictgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #45
58. I honestly think a lot of it is our food
There are chemicals and hormones that are allowed for use in our food that are illegal in other Westernized countries. There have been very few tests on the effects of these ingredients on our health. If you read Michael Pollan's "The Omnivore's Diet" you read about how corn is in absolutely everything, because it's cheap and subsidized. I am very vigilant about trying to get high fructose corn syrup out of my family's diet, and it is SO hard to avoid. I have a family history of diabetes, which may make me predisposed to be more vulnerable to foods that contain even small amounts of HFCS. But many of these ingredients in our food are chemically synthesized to the point that they don't even resemble food in its natural state, so it's unsurprising that our bodies might not know how to handle them. Even look at McDonalds food for example - a hamburger isn't health food for anyone, but the beef cows were given specific cheap diets to fatten them up faster - why would anyone think that if the ingredients for our food were fed diets to fatten them up, that eating the food they produce in turn wouldn't fatten us up as well?

OF COURSE there are problems of eating too much and exercising too little. Our country is not designed for public transportation in most cities, our society in general is working longer hours than ever with fewer vacations and many of those jobs are entirely sedentary. Portion sizes have gotten bigger and many studies have been done that demonstrate that most people will eat more food when their portion size is increased. In most cities in this country you have to really go out of your way to get exercise. I believe that is why wealthier people are more likely to be thinner - they can afford to hire people to help them with some of their tasks, they can afford better food, and in many cases have more time.

Of course everyone is responsible for themselves and there are many, many people who are just making excuses. But when you look at the fact that the overweight and obesity epidemic is such a huge problem and it developed fairly recently, I think it's clear that something else is going on. Two-thirds of the American public is now overweight, and if I remember correctly, the statistic was much much lower 10 years ago. I highly doubt that in the past ten years, two-thirds of American adults just became exceptionally slothful. Something else is going on.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #58
63. There definitely is something up
but a large part of it is simply our access to food...its so much easier to over-eat. That being said, subsidized corn is a biiiig problem. HFCS is no doubt a culprit...as is the amount of sugary carbonated drinks. I agree with your assessment, however.

Thank you for your response :)
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #58
71. Excellent points.
"why would anyone think that if the ingredients for our food were fed diets to fatten them up, that eating the food they produce in turn wouldn't fatten us up as well?" They have done studies and proved that not only do the growth hormones cause children to mature and develop at an early age but they also cause obesity in adults (we can't grow up any more, so we have to grow out).

"Of course everyone is responsible for themselves and there are many, many people who are just making excuses." Very true. I tried to get the point across earlier but I see now I didn't do a good job - I'm not making excuses for myself. I know why this has happened to me, but I also joined a gym last month, go five times a week, and started a diet from my doctor. I am working to change what's happened. What bothers me is the (1) automatic assumption (by some here on this very thread) that I must be lazy since I'm overweight and (2) the prejudice against fat people. I've been in good shape most of my life and was blessed with an attractive figure - I saw some of the prejudice through what my mom's gone through, but I had NO IDEA about it really until I went through it myself. I'm actually writing a book on the experience. It's been quite an eye-opener for me!

Something else is going on. Indeed!

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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #58
78. Why do you "highly doubt" that?
That "slothfulness" has exhibited itself in other ways, generally speaking: Americans getting stupider (lazy re: education), voted for worse politicians (lazy re: civic responsibilities), cheating is rampant (lazy re: integrity), and so forth.

In any case, given what you say, what's wrong with the following, EMPIRICALLY BASED solution-procedure:

(1) People do everything within their own person power to lessen obesity. (You claim to acknowledge "problems of eating too much and exercising too little", and claim that "everyone is responsible for themselves and there are many, many people who are just making excuses"

(2) Once (1) is achieved, take stock of the situation. Is there still an "obesity epidemic" (or whatever one wants to call it)?

If so,

(3a) Look into "culinary conspiracy theories".

If not,

(3b) Celebrate with a nice big steak - woohoo!
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conflictgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Right, I forgot, ALL of those things are caused by the individual
Everything was better 10 years ago and suddenly everyone changed and those changes caused them to get fat! Wow, amazing! The collective American society was so motivated and had such integrity 10 years ago and suddenly just changed *poof* and got lazy. I wonder what caused that?

Getting 'stupider' (wow, that word choice is really a good indicator that you're an expert on the subject of education) must mean people are just too lazy to educate themselves, rather than the fact that schools are notoriously underfunded in most parts of the country and the ignorant NCLB regulations require teachers to teach to the test. Of course! Since the quality of one's education is all up to the individual, why have schools at all? And electing the wrong politician MUST be because of laziness about civic responsibility, and have nothing to do with really elaborate media manipulation and campaigns that are carefully crafted to obfuscate the real issues - to say nothing of potential voter fraud, but I'm guessing you'd say that if election fraud happened, it was the individual's responsibility for being too lazy to prevent it.

Almost every social problem has multiple causes. It is possible to acknowledge that eating too much and exercising too little plays a part in the relatively recent dramatic increase in the number of overweight people. That doesn't mean that other factors can't be in play as well.

Bye, have a nice day! :hi:
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #58
96. yes and water also
Edited on Wed Aug-23-06 12:17 PM by pitohui
they are finding metabolites of drugs known to cause weight gain such as female hormones from birth control pills and SSRI's like prozac in water supplies

my hunch is that some people are much more sensitive to these tiny trace amounts and this is why they gain weight and/or can't lose weight

this is just my speculation but it will be interesting to see what researchers learn from further study of

on another note, smoking tobacco does speed up the metabolism a little, and spin it as they will, there is no ignoring that many people who stop smoking gain weight -- so as america shifts from a society of majority smokers to majority non-smokers it was always going to be the case that americans got heavier


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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #45
89. Everyone has a reason why it's not their fault...
... no matter what the "it" is - just god PLEASE don't let it be my fault.

And you raise a good point - it's nigh impossible to improve oneself, if one doesn't think it's within one's ability. And blaming someone/something else places obesity outside one's ability. It's the nadir of pessimism.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
53. it is no joke
many people cannot, realistically, change their weight, and they need to be accepted as valid human beings even if they are fat and they stay fat

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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #53
67. Oh I wasn't mocking it at all
I was just curious-not having come across it before and thought people here are more likely to have heard about it :).
The only problem I had with it-and I say this as a person whose knowledge about medicine is confined to the generic articles in mainstream news sources...I am in the sciences but not directly related to medicine-some of the health stuff seemed a little counter-intuitive.

I fully fully support the anti-discrimination stuff. The no-correlation between your habits and your weight, well I am still skeptical, but then as I said I don't know enough so I should probably reserve judgement.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
75. I'm liberating my fat.
It's time it moves on and tastes freedom. That's not what you meant, is it?
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athena Donating Member (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
83. Read "The Obesity Myth" by Paul Campos.
There is no scientific evidence that conclusively shows that being overweight is unhealthy. Many large-scale studies have failed to find any link between weight and various diseases. What studies show is that:
  • being slightly underweight is more dangerous than being "obese";
  • yo-yo dieting is more dangerous than being steadily "overweight" or "obese";
  • not exercising is clearly unhealthy.

The diet industry funds nearly all diet research and is responsible for the false perception that being "overweight" or "obese" (by their definitions) is dangerous. It also gives thin people who don't exercise a false sense of health. Read The Obesity Myth to find out more.

I'm amazed at the level of prejudice displayed here against overweight people. I'm 5.4" and weigh 115 lbs. I don't exercise, and I practically live on junk food. I'm physically in very bad shape compared to my boyfriend, who is supposedly "obese" but eats much healthier and swims 3-4 times a week. I can't gain weight, and he can't lose it. It's not as simple as "eat less and exercise" because metabolism is not independent of diet.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. Thank you for a well-reasoned post.
I'm astounded at the lack of compassion here. Fat is a very complicated issue. There are too many people who have the attitude "if I can do (fill in the blank), so can everybody else", which I see often in rich white people.

The world isn't that simple, and everybody is different.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #83
94. I didn't know this
"being slightly underweight is more dangerous than being "obese""

I have a doc who is extremely thin and he thinks everyone else should be the same way he is.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #94
99. anorexia/bulimia actually affects the vision somehow
if your abnormally thin doctor is a victim of an eating disorder then he quite simply can't see a normal body of healthy weight as anything other than "bloated" and "obese"

if you cannot change doctors for insurance reasons then to be honest i would consider taking his advice on nutrition/weight w. a strong dash of salt

he simply might not be able to see you as you really are -- he doesn't see himself as he really is either



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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
88. I have a question I wonder if someone can answer.
I'm not trying to be a jerk. I have a lot of sympathy for people who struggle with their weight. I had my own minor struggle in high school.

Anyway, doesn't historic evidence from extreme situations such as famines and wars (concentration camps), etc., show that if people are severely deprived of calories they will waste down to skin and bones? There seem to be few if any exceptions. And doesn't that disprove most genetic/metabolic explanations of obesity in some way? What I'm saying is, if someone cuts calories down to very, very little over a prolonged time, isn't it almost inevitable that that person will lose significant weight? ... Thanks for any input.
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conflictgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. Yes, that is true
Edited on Wed Aug-23-06 12:42 AM by conflictgirl
When deprived of significant enough food for a long enough period of time, people will lose a lot of weight. There are some problems with that, however. There will be negative effects on health from having calories go that low for that long of a period of time - damage to the heart, damage to the liver and kidneys, osteoporosis, women will not have enough body fat to menstruate or reproduce, and vitamin deficiencies that can themselves cause other health conditions. The body will also start to "cannibalize" itself, taking vitamins, minerals, fat, etc from bones and tissues to maintain its own life processes. The other big problem is that you have to maintain that low caloric intake indefinitely for the weight to stay off. If you start eating more calories, you'll gain the weight back. But there's also a problem with this that is experienced by a lot of people (particularly women) who have been yo-yo dieters for many years. If you lose weight, particularly if it gets to a starvation level (which I believe is less than 1200 calories for women and 1800 calories for men): your body will start to conserve the calories in an effort to stay alive if your calories drop below that, believing that you are in "famine mode." In other words, no weight loss. Many popular diet books recommend that women go even lower than 1200 calories per day. As anyone who has tried to be on a very low-calorie diet knows, it's incredibly difficult to maintain on any kind of permanent basis.

Obviously there are millions of Americans who aren't anywhere near starvation-level caloric intake and could benefit from cutting their calories by 500 to 1000 calories per day. But if their metabolism has been screwed up enough by yo-yo dieting in the past, reducing their caloric intake by 500-1000 calories a day may not result in significant weight loss. I find that if I consume 1200-1400 calories a day, I maintain my weight where it is - at 25 pounds overweight. Which is what I'm doing now, actually. I don't lose weight until my calories drop to about 800 a day, which happened a few years ago when I got really sick for many months when doctors couldn't figure out what was wrong. I lost 25 pounds by dropping my calories to 800 a day, but I also started losing my hair and my periods stopped. And as soon as I started eating on the low end of a normal amount of calories, the weight came back extremely quickly.

Obviously drastically reducing calories will result in weight loss, but won't necessarily result in HEALTH.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #90
97. Thanks for the info.
:hi:
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
91. The responses in this thread showing it's okay to make jokes about fat
people is likely why fat people feel they need to give each other a hug, and say that they love each other just as they are.

Some prejudices are still accepted. Fat people are lazy, etc. Don't put a fat person at the reception desk as no one wants to look at the pig. It'll be bad for business.

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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
92. I have heard of that for years as fat people deal with so much
horrible discrimination.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
93. It means that 'fat' people have a right to exist
Edited on Wed Aug-23-06 01:06 AM by kineta
that they have a right to be treated with the same dignity as any other person. that they have as much right to their sexuality as any other person. and so on.

no it's not an encouragement of obesity.
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TheFriedPiper Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
100. I've lost 51 lbs since April 1st. I look better, but mostly I FEEL better
From 225 to 174 (I'm 5'9")

I did it the old fashioned way:

I ate healthy (no radical diet)

I worked out 5 times a week for 30-60 minutes.


It's no big secret formula: burn more calories than you take in and you lose weight

My matabolism is up, my energy is up, and I feel better about myself.

This group may have its heart in the right place, but they are doing their members a disservice by encouraging them to 'accept' being fat instead of doing something about it.
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