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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:48 AM
Original message
92% of Americans Favor Public's Right To Know How Votes Are Counted
Originally posted at:
http://wedonotconsent.blogspot.com/2006/08/92-of-americ...

92% of Americans Favor Public's Right To Know How Votes Are Counted

By Dave Berman
8/20/06

A new Zogby poll will be released on Tuesday revealing 92% of Americans support transparency and verifiability in elections. The survey was commissioned by election protection attorney Paul Lehto (DUer Land Shark), currently representing San Diego voters in a challenge to the results of California's 50th district Congressional contest held on June 6. (Disclosure: Lehto wrote the Foreword to my book, We Do Not Consent).

The actual survey question and answers:
18. In some states, members of the public have the right to view the counting of votes and verify how that process is working. In other states, citizens are in effect barred from viewing vote counting even if they would like to view the process. Which of the following two statements are you more likely to agree with A or B?

Table 1.

Statement A: Citizens have the right to view and obtain information about how election officials count votes.
92%

Statement B: Citizens do not have the right to view and obtain information about how elections officials count votes.
6%

Neither/Not sure
2%
With numbers like these, according to a public statement by Lehto, "When it comes to anti-secret vote counting and pro-transparency, activists should be walking around like they are invincible and can't lose. Because they can't.... !!! The only way we can lose is by letting the subject change away from the transparency and anti-secret vote counting frames."

MORE...
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. And the other 8% believe that Elvis is still alive
Honest to God, who could be AGAINST this?
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. The support is incredibly wide and deep
See this thread for a little more about the demographic breakdowns

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Full Zogby results will be published Tuesday
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Now hold on a minute, I want open elections and I know for a fact
Elvis is driving an 18 wheeler cross country. The last time I seen him we were parked right next to each other at a truck stop in Amarillo Texas. We dropped his trailer and bob tailed his Peterbilt to a nice steak house where Elvis treated me to dinner. Elvis is still alive and a real nice guy.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Perhaps, but more likely they have a stake in the status quo.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. 8% vote for the good old days of Stalinist Russia.
And yes, hope to one day run into Elvis.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Wanna bet those 8% were ALL Republican partisans aware that the machines
favor them?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. guys, gals, whatever.... 3-4% undecided among that 8%
Edited on Sun Aug-20-06 04:17 PM by Land Shark
a certain percentage just confused.... some people like to be contrarian, the real opposition is quite small. The bottom line is that the visibility of the vote count and the access to information about the same is annihilating any thing else. If you articulate this line you get nearly 100% agreement from all sources. THIS IS THE FOUNDATION TO BUILD ON. And you still win in democracy even if you drop from 92% down to 50.1%
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
26. Is the mental illness rate really that high?
My guess is that 8% of this country just does not care.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Isn't there a plus or minus 4%
:shrug: I would bet 8% can't even read the poll let alone understand what it says.
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well, it's NONE of their business!!!
It's for the NeoConJobs to know
and for us to pay for.

#; )
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. What a brilliantly framed question.
From tinfoil to titanium!

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. K&R
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. Hmmm.
Perhaps a Hand Counted Paper Ballot Ballot Referendum would be an idea.

HCPBBR! (I love acronyms.) :D

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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Not for me, thanks
To me it is counterintuitive to say I reject these election conditions and the results they produce (as I have repeatedly done), and then to put my fate into that matrix.

This is an opportunity where we can withdraw complicity and Consent. We no longer have a basis for believing that a referendum would be honored, or another law followed or enforced. If we have the numbers to win that kind of a vote, fair and square--and I believe we do--then we need to start to see that more obviously.

Just as with the slew of statements that have come out saying "no basis for confidence" regarding CA-50, we need to take the next step and have groups and ideally communities (Berkeley, you're up) coming out with statements saying they reject the elections based on conditions, before they're even held. The best thing would be if a coalition of communities set this up and announced it jointly.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. Imagine all candidates of a given race, or ballot, saying that!

Sure, I'm not taking away from that.

But if the aim is HCPB, wouldn't we apply whatever pressure would most easily work?

A hypothetical jurisdiction, say one that already does hand-counts anyway, formalizing hand-counting could serve to model for others how (and why) to take that step (one among others) toward peaceful revolution.

Perhaps people in such jurisdictions, on the idea that they already really care about the transparency of the process, could help deliver needed attention and empowerment.

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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Strategery, son
I suppose I shouldn't make this out to be a one size fits all solution. Maybe in some towns a referendum would be a good strategy. But in general, I think it is something you do when you're more desperate, and a race would be expected to be much closer. When we have such a huge majority, we should have and exercise our clout.

We should not set up an opportunity for a tiny minority to wield *at least* equal time in the media, which may find its way to distort our message. And all of this so we can take a *chance* at winning in a rigged game.

What would be better is to see our large majority acting much more visibly, stating much more clearly, and demanding much more emphatically that our local decision makers to our bidding or be gone.

The choice you are suggesting we put to a vote is not one that needs to be subjected to a vote (literally, by law, of course the Supes can choose to make the changes we seek). And since we should have enough strength to compel local leaders to act, this will be a cheaper, quicker and more potent play to make.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. I agree one size may not fit all.
One of those small towns in NH that hand count could make it law, not regulation or happenstance if the case may be.

In Yuba Cty, CA, perhaps citizens could persuade their BoE to require Hand Counts. But once in place, perhaps a law passed would serve as insurance against a future BoE changing the regs.

These two ideas seem potent and important, too.

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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. BOE, then law, makes good sense
Getting the change made from the bench, so to speak, before cementing in law seems like a good way to go.

A broader point here, and this is familiar to you, Wilms, but perhaps new to others...our local city and county governments are basically being held hostage by state and federal regulations and mandates. The state and feds are harming communities, individuals and families, and the local government must choose to continue being a conduit for this, or wake up and join the people in municipal civil disobedience. The point is that we have to present this choice very clearly so local leaders can see no way around speaking out.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
9. K&R!!(nt)
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agentkgb Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
13. What's Wrong with the 8%?
Maybe 8 in 100 people would prefer not to vote at all? Why bother to vote, we could just have election officials decide which is the best candidate without our input (wait,they did it that way the last two elections).
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. there are up to 4% (half) of that 8% that are undecided
and only a minuscule portion actually against. Of those against, some are confused, some are contrarian for contrarian-ness's sake, some read something into the question that isn't there, but most of all "TRUST THE POLLWORKERS OR THE ELECTIONS OFFICIALS".

Clearly placing opposition to transparency at even 8% is way too high given the undecideds, and if you could further analyze it, you might find out that the only folks left against transparency are a certain faction of election officials themselves led by ken Blackwell and their supports, less than 1% of the population, but a powerful 1% well beyond their numbers.

The key here is to KNOW that when you talk transparency and anti-secret vote counting, YOU ARE WINNING.
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agentkgb Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Good point.
But still, it's hard to see how people can be undecided. I want to know my vote counted.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
17. I would like to see all election results proven...
I would like to be given a receipt with my election choices and a unique reference number. Then I would like to be able to view either online or at the county my unique ref nbr and my choices to insure my vote is tabulated correctly. Then I would like the ability to download the results and count the votes myself.

Notwithstanding secret ballot issues (which back in the old day it was a privilege to shout out who you voted for), etc, this is the only means to insure our democracy.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. In a sense, if some or all people really NEED the secret ballot
freedom's on the run, a bit, don't you think? In true freedom one should be able to shout one's choices from the rooftop without fear of retaliation or consequence...

the secret ballot (i.e. not allowable to connect voter with ballot after cast) makes the voting system radically UNauditable, because you can't go back to the "source document" i.e. the voter....

I'm not trying to end the secret ballot folks, but I'm saying the auditability and fairness of the system hangs by a veritable thread because it's impossible to do a true audit, so the rest of the chain of custody has to be FLAWLESS and robust, particularly in electronic situations they have to run the table of checks and balances so to speak in order to have a prayer of a reliable system....(and those checks and balances have to be there in the first place)
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I really agree with that.

I was recently wondering how "free" we are given that some people probably really do need secret voting.

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
35. If you mean you can't track individual ballots without tracking voters...
...that may not be true. But you won't like the solution because it involves a little cryptography.

I don't think auditing is really a problem because all you really need to audit is the vote count -- not the individual ballots, right? You can know that every ballot is exactly what each voter intended it to be and still get the count wrong, can't you?
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
21. Kick.(nt)
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
25. Kick (eom)
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
27. Has this been sent to Lou Dobbs, Kieth Olbermann and
Catherine Crier?

Certainly they will be "among the few, the brave, and the proud" to report on it?
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Land Shark said...
Zogby has a huge (~35,000) media contact list that this will be blasted to.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Great! I can't imagine that lou and Kieth won't cover it in some way.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
31. Kick.n/t
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
32. Then why arn't those 92% on the streets DEMANDING fair elections?
Talk is cheap, the average American may talk the talk but when it comes to making an effort Joe Six-Pack would rather watch American Idol.
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. How many people have you lead into the streets?
We know many among our enormous majority have not yet activated. News like this will help bring them out. Do you work with a local election protection group? If there are none near you, can you start one? Start might mean taking the info in the OP (and the several related posts and press releases floating around) and creating your own local press release. Make the news. Do you blog? Ever address your local government during their public meetings? Talk can be cheap, or it can get you someplace you want to go. Do you want to talk about who's not helping as if that were the problem or do you want to talk to people who you can persuade to do things differently?
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
34. The full version of this OP is now at OpEdNews.com
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