Do we have a Shadow Government?

[Junkdrawer]

Seems to me THAT'S the central question of the day. We can argue until we're blue in the face over "conspiracy theories" and it wouldn't mean squat unless there were conspirators. And unless we know who these guys are, how would we ever get our country back even if we did prove that a given incident were, say, a false flag attack?

As for what I believe, a while back, Octafish recommended this book:




Distinguished investigative reporter Joseph Trento has written the most authoritative indictment of CIA splinter groups, two generations of Bush family involvement in illegal financial networks, and the funding of the agents of terror. Prelude to Terror reveals the history of a corrupt group of spymasters — led by Ted Shackley — who were fired when Jimmy Carter became president, but who maintained their intelligence portfolio and used it to create a private intelligence network. After this rogue group helped engineer Carter’s defeat in 1980 and allied with George H.W. Bush, these former CIA men planned and conducted what became the Iran-Contra scandal and, through the Saudis, allied the U.S. with extreme elements in Islam. The CIA’s number-one front man, Edwin P. Wilson, was framed by Shackley and his cohorts so that Wilson’s operations could be taken over. For the first time the story of how CIA director George H. W. Bush was recruited into this network, and brought it into the bosom of the Saudi royal family, is told in detail, as well as how this group’s manipulation of the CIA bureaucracy allowed Osama bin Laden’s fundraising to thrive as al Qaeda flourished under Saudi and CIA protection.


I just bought a copy for a good friend. I highly recommend it.

[MrCoffee]

1. No. Please report for reeducation.

[IChing]

5. He needs to burn that book before he reports in though

Shadow Government? Ridiculous.

;-)

[ryanus]

9. Which is easier...

A. Spending millions trying to convince people that they should change their minds about something that you want to do.
B. Spending millions trying to convince people that what you did is actually the same thing as what they wanted.

I think the modus operandi of almost politicians now is to say they will do what the people want them to do, and then once elected try to explain that you are doing that, even when you are doing the opposite. Hope that makes sense.

Frankly, I'd be surprised if we didn't have a shadow government, because that seems like a much easier way to move the country where you want it to go than by actually trying to change people's opinions.

Also, in self-governed societies like ours, we would get pretty upset if someone tried to usurp power and did stuff we didn't like. But if we all think that person gained power legitimately, we accept it (we may complain, but we don't revolt). Controlling self-governed societies is totally the way to go. Outright control is too much effort, and dangerous. The Soviet Union figured that out. Plus everyone thinks that self-governed societies are...self-governed. No one would believe any crazy theories suggesting otherwise.

Another thing. It used to be that nations were the richest organizations. That not necessarily true anymore. So what would happen if a frenchman, say, a few hunder years ago, had more money than the king of France? I would expect the frenchman to become a pretty powerful political force, maybe even more than the king. And if he's smart, he'd keep the king in power while the rich controlled what actually happened. Rome and Persia figured this out with their colonies. Now we have corporations and inidividuals with more money than governments. I can't imagine some of them haven't figured that out how to use that power undetected.

[Junkdrawer]

20. Kinda like: Easier to get forgiveness than permission...

except these guys never say they're sorry.

Some say that there were two American coup d'etats in my lifetime:

The Assassination of JFK and 9/11.

Funny how any theory challenging the Official explanations of either are put down as "Conspiracy Theories".

[Swamp Rat]

2. k&r

[Jazzgirl]

43. How do you do that???!!??!!!!

n/t

[AntiFascist]

3. Ann Coulter says you should be deported...

in fact she says anyone who argues against the concept of "Islamo-fascism" should be.

But isn't she just the epitomy of a Hitlerian master-race wetdream herself, wanting to literally bash liberals in the head and hating gays so much? I'll bet every straight neo-Nazi must fantasize about her.

[Cleita]

4. A local poli-sci professor said so back in 2004 before

the election that year, and he named the PNAC as it. His exact words were, "The Bush administration is the front for a shadow government known and the Project For A New American Century."

I asked him if he was a DUer, but he said he had never been to DU. It seems he came to this conclusion separately from us. It seems to be true and it's not so secret anymore since many PNACers now hold prominent positions in the Bush administration.

It looks like that book will tie more covert groups to the PNAC.

[Junkdrawer]

7. I think that PNAC is a think tank/lobby group that argues the positions...

of the Shadow Government; the "brains" if you will. The book I cite reveals the "muscle". To find the head of the Shadow Government itself, follow the money.

[Cleita]

12. I think you are right.n/t

[CJCRANE]

6. The Shadow Government

has stepped out into the light.

Torture, extraordinary rendition, warrantless wiretapping etc - "black ops" as official policy.

[Junkdrawer]

11. That's one of my biggest fears. Too many more years of this madness...

and all the honest Ray McGovern / Valerie Plame types will have been forced out - if they haven't been already.

[bananarepublican]

46. I'd also recommend "Rule by Secrecy" by Jim Marrs. n/t

[leftofthedial]

8. always have had

at least since they killed Lincoln

sometimes they are more active than other times

the string of idiot repukes they keep installing as "president" are stupid by design. This gives the real power much more leeway.

[snot]

58. AGREED.

I actually think that's why they're so leery of McCain, who otherwise looks like their best candidate -- but he might be a bit too smart and independent (though he seems to be toeing the line lately).

[many a good man]

10. Sounds like a good read.

What confuses me is that Ray McCarthy thinks GHWB was a good director.

shadow government

[Lars39]

13. Yes we do...links:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5619850

Links to Moyers:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2397496401234089687&q=The+Secret+Government&hl=en

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/02/AR2006060201410.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2473253

[IChing]

15. Thanks for providing the links to DUers

I know we have had many more discussions on this matter.

[Lars39]

17. I'll keep foraging in my bookmarks.

Maybe go look in the old DU archives.

[hootinholler]

70. Octafish has a DU journal now. n/r

[oscar111]

16. SHADOW GOV. misdefined: Real meaning is party out of power

right?

dont EU nations have the opposition parties set up a shadow government with someone in each post, to criticize those in power?

[rman]

45. Not mis-defined, just a different use of the same word,

for a different purpose.

Yet another definition is that it's a parallel government that can take over control in case something bad happens to the official government (ie nuke on Capitol Hill).

But in the context presented in this thread "shadow government" is a force comprised of circles of power that are involved in such operation as overthrowing leftist foreign governments, illegal arms deals (ie Iran hostage situation), narcotics trade (ie CIA/financing of Nicaragua contras), and false-flag terrorist attacks (ie RAF/Bader-Meinhof/operation Gladio).

[AntiFascist]

19. Definitely check out the Octafish journal, especially this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5027094

[Lars39]

21. Thanks!

[Junkdrawer]

23. Thanks. I have to go to a bookstore tonight. I'll look for the Moyers...

book "Secret Government" while I'm there.

[AntiFascist]

30. Here's "The Secret Government" documentary....

viewable online at Video Google:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8536707153900925247&q=the+Secret+Government

[Junkdrawer]

32. SEE THE MOYERS 1988 VIDEO. CHILLING. A MUST WATCH!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8536707153900925247&q=the+Secret+Government

The end was spooky accurate - no pun intended.

[Junkdrawer]

28. Your links to Moyer's PBS special is dead. Here's a Google Video link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2397496401234089687&q=The+Secret+Government&hl=en

[Lars39]

29. Thanks!

:blush: :hi:

[Rex]

14. IMO, we've had a 'shadow government' since the Civil War.

Question is, who exactly runs it now?

[MrSlayer]

18. Yes and we always have.

The whole political process is a sham in this country. The same families and corporations that are running things now, have been running them since the beginning, a lot of them came over from Europe where they were doing the same things. Political parties don't really matter, they are both run by the same people.

[Joanne98]

22. Yes. But the timeline is difficult. 50 yrs or so.

I watched "Why We Fight" last night. A GOOD movie.

[Triana]

24. Is the Carlyle Group mentioned

in this book at all? I have to wonder about the configuration of those tentacles.

[Junkdrawer]

26. He talks a lot about the Saudis, but I don't remember the Carlyle Group...

in particular. It's not in the index. The book itself focuses on the post-Vietnam to the Reagan/Bush era with some discussion of 9/11. It's mostly history, as the name implies: Prelude.

[Richard Steele]

25. Maybe you should ask Dick Cheney's staff.

Oh, wait, you can't...because no one knows who they are.

The names of the folks who work at the VP's office are
a SECRET. And no one in the MSM seems to find that
situation ODD enough to report upon.

[Junkdrawer]

27. Betcha there are alot of middle men between Cheney and...

the real government in that office.

I've always seen Cheney and Rumsfeld as managers.

[earth mom]

31. K & R!

:kick:

[Junkdrawer]

33. SEE THE MOYERS 1988 VIDEO. CHILLING. A MUST WATCH!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2397496401234089687&q=The+Secret+Government&hl=en

[libnnc]

59. thank you thank you thank you for posting that link

Watched it and it has been bookmarked.

Ho-lee shit. That's all I can say.

[H2O Man]

34. Yes.

Without question, we do. There are a number of other good books that document this. Among them is Senator Byrd's "Losing America." I could list many others.

[bobthedrummer]

35. Yes, a criminal/fascist ideology (getting much closer to totalitarian)

was installed here and became dominant via "loyalty" to BFEE.
That's reality.

[Junkdrawer]

36. .

[burythehatchet]

37. Version 2006 was formed during the Ford administration.

[Odin2005]

38. I don't beleive in a "shadow government" in the strict sense. However...

...the Neocons have been acting in a shadow government-like fasion in that they are feeding our politicians with BS from behind the scenes in order to fool them into beleiving Straussian "useful myths". This started in the Ford years when they tried to refute Kissinger's pragmantic Realpolitic diplomacy by making up BS about the USSR being much stronger then they really were. They hit the jackpot during the Reagan years when they got a Neocon in charge of the CIA in order to make Ronnie beleive thier BS about the USSR.

Clinton winning in '92 was a result of the Neocons biggest screwup, they built up the Religious right too fast and so scared moderate Republicans into voting for Clinton and Perot. Whitewater and related BS was part of the Neocon plan to fix thier mistake.

9/11 was an godsend for the Neocons (I don't beleive in MIHOP or LIHOP) because it gave them a replacement boogyman for the USSR.

[Octafish]

39. Continuity Of Government left out Democrats.

That was some coincidence. Same goes for foreign policy, which is one of the things that gets me the most about the Trento book.

When Carter was President, many in the CIA (and many agents who'd been sacked by DCI Stansfield Turner) openly backed Bush in the 1980 election. When Bush lost the nomination to Reagan, the CIA continued to back Bush. Later, when Carter was out of power, these turds all came out from under their rock and continued to shaft We the People and the rest of the world. Nice.

Trento also refers to the Safari Club. That was the name for the organization that funded certain parts of the upper CIA hierarchy. Saudi Arabia and other countries kept the money flowing to fight the democratically elected "commie" government of Nicargua when the U.S. Congress said, "No." This ties in with the Secret Government because, IMFO, no matter who's in the White House, the foreign policy is controlled by the War Party.

Thanks for remembering, Junkdrawer. It is so gratifying to see so many DUers give a damn. You've made me want to fight these traitors even more.

[bobthedrummer]

41. You aren't alone Octafish-this isn't theoretical, nor coincidence.

DU is still an open source battleground thanks to the efforts of many in this "war"/"counter-revolution".
:patriot:

[mod mom]

62. I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but fair elections have

diverted much of my attention as of late: was the assassination attempt on Reagan, a bfee hit gone bad?

[zulchzulu]

40. Oliver North called it "Rex Alpha" in the Iran-Contra hearings...

If you don't think there is a shadow government, I surely admire your childlike innocence.

[bobthedrummer]

42. Datadump: financial history on some of the shadow government

US tilts to Iraq
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/index.htm

Iraq, Iran, Howard Teicher statements etc.
http://www.populist.com/02.17.burns.html

UAE and BCCI
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=490176&mesg_id=490176

[Jed Dilligan]

44. Confused by the term

Social scientists use the term "shadow state" to refer to privatized formerly governmental services, especially social services.

I think "men in the shadows" are behind a lot of the headlines. But people who get close to them, get dead. I have a IJ friend who decided to change course when he was a few puzzle-pieces away from following five other journalists to the grave... I'm really glad my friend is alive and I'm not sure what he would have accomplished had he gone further. Just another three line news story about a suicide or a drug overdose on the part of some unknown scribbler.

edit for wrong word, I should really preview these posts.

[magellan]

47. OMG that's scary

And I don't doubt these people are cold-blooded killers. But after reading this entire thread I don't understand: why are we discussing this as if there were a way to stop them? IS there a way? Somehow I suspect that even if every American had proof it was true they'd shrug and turn Idol back on....

[Jed Dilligan]

49. I think most people already suspect it,

hence, a lot of the apathy. For years and years I was apolitical/anti-political because I thought everything happened behind the scenes and partisans were just deluded cheerleaders.

[dkofos]

60. Thanks to the repugs we do

All we have to do is take the house, senate,and presidency.

With the Patriot act laws we could arrest and lock these treasonous bastards
up and never let them go to trial.

[The Backlash Cometh]

48. All politics are local. There are so many secrets at the local level

that it would turn your hair white. Think about how many corrupt developers and politicians have used government to screw things up, and how the public may have ineptly responded to try to fix them. The public gets sued, then suddenly you have a town secret that no one dares speak of.

You think this is fiction? Think again. If it happened in my area, it's probably happening all over the U.S. So, yes, we do have shadow governments, because I don't believe for one minute that the FBI or other authorities are unaware of these things. Yet, they do nothing, and in doing nothing, they condone it.

[Lars39]

50. Like this?

300 more civil cases uncovered in Broward Co., FL court (secret docket)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2463178

[The Backlash Cometh]

61. It's depressing. And I bet if I look deep enough, I'll find as many

old guard Florida Democrats pulling these strings and Republican good ole boys.

The public's worst quandry is in believing that the government will be an advocate for public causes. They just use the public when they need a loud noise to shut down a dissenter who is sniffing too hard in their Garden of Evil.

[Ripley]

65. Outstanding!!

Description: Garden of Evil. And YES it slithers in both parties. But Oopsy, we aren't allowed to point that out are we?

[FourScore]

51. The movie "Syriana"

was the most deft in portraying the shadow government and how it works that I have ever seen. However, the movie had so many componenets to it, the shadow government was only one part. Great film! Clooney sure deserved the Oscar. ("Syriana" is also based on a true story about a CIA operative -- "See No Evil" by Bob Baer.)

[FourScore]

52. What do you know about the author?

What else has he written? What sort of credentials does he have? I'm interested now. I used to think the whole shadow government was bunk. But it sure starts to make sense if one starts to consider LIHOP or MIHOP theories. Personally, I don't think the Bush Administration is smart enough to pull off LIHOP or MIHOP unless a shadow gov't were doing it for them.

[Junkdrawer]

53. I've only heard good things. A lot of old spooks talk to him...

Here's a bio...

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtrento.htm

[FourScore]

55. Hmm...

interesting link.

[AntiFascist]

63. After watching Syriana it should become more obvious....

we have former oil executives in the highest positions of our government, directly involved in steering our foreign policy. I would also suggest reading Bill White's interview to the CBC which is available online:

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/white.pdf

it gives a fairly concise history of the Bush family's dealings with the Saudis, from the viewpoint of one who was directly involved. Keep in mind that he has a vendetta against Bush Jr. which is why he has disclosed much of this information.

When Bush I was director of the CIA he privatized part of their resources for use by the Saudis and helped to train the Saudi defenses. Even back then, they realized that there would be an uprising against the Saudi Royals, but if you read more of documents at the CBC site you might also realize that money was provided to al-Qaeda in order to shift their focus toward the U.S. This probably gave the neocons some meat to sink their teeth into in establishing a real enemey to be fought while "liberating" the rest of the world.

[KansDem]

54. Well, SOMEone or SOMEthing is writing Bush's copy....

I (tried to) read his latest "signing statement" on another thread today. Couldn't make hide nor hair of it. I believe the only thing on those statements that could be attributed to Bush is his signature.

[Earth_First]

56. G8/WTO, Carlyle, PNAC, Bilderberg...

All groups in a succession of secretiveness more powerful than the next which are affecting global politics no matter HOW you vote. Bilderberg has been meeting for 50 years now, just recently having their 50th year meeting in Ottawa, Canada. Put it this way: the Bilderberg Group had documented the Iraq war invasion/occupation plans WELL in advance of the Downing Street Memo...

[FourScore]

57. What are your sources for that

interested tidbit? ("the Bilderberg Group had documented the Iraq war invasion/occupation plans WELL in advance of the Downing Street Memo...")

[Earth_First]

68. It's well known that Richard Perle, a fellow PNACer...

has been a habitual attendee of the Bilderber Group conferences, who was advising Goldman Sachs International, another regular attendee of the Bilderberg conferences, in 2003 when Perle was forced to resign from the Pentagon after offering the investment firm on how it might benefit financially from a war in Iraq in early 2000 after the Bush administration had stolen office.

Let me find some 'mainstream' sources in order to back up this information tomorrow morning, it's late and I've been on a 17 hour day with my daughter and wife.

[Dover]

64. Ted Shakley - The "Blond Ghost"

Theodore (Ted) Shackley was born in 1927. His mother was a Polish immigrant and he spent much of his childhood living with his grandmother. Shackley was raised in West Palm Beach, Florida and in October, 1945, joined the United States Army. After basic training he was sent to Germany where he was part of the Allied occupation force. As a result of his knowledge of the Polish language he was recruited into the U.S. Army Counter Intelligence Corp. In 1947 he was sent to study at the University of Maryland.

Shackley returned to Germany in 1951 as a 2nd Lieutenant. As a member of Army Counter Intelligence Corp he was involved in recruiting Polish agents. He was also recruited by the Central Intelligence Agency. By 1953 he was working for William Harvey at the CIA Berlin Station.

Shackley, whose nickname was the "Blond Ghost" (because he hated to be photographed) became involved in CIA's Black Operations. This involved a policy that was later to become known as Executive Action (a plan to remove unfriendly foreign leaders from power). This including a coup d'état that overthrew the Guatemalan government of Jacobo Arbenz in 1954 after he introduced land reforms and nationalized the United Fruit Company.

After the Bay of Pigs disaster President John F. Kennedy created a committee (SGA) charged with overthrowing Castro's government. The SGA, chaired by Robert F. Kennedy (Attorney General), included John McCone (CIA Director), McGeorge Bundy (National Security Adviser), Alexis Johnson (State Department), Roswell Gilpatric (Defence Department), General Lyman Lemnitzer (Joint Chiefs of Staff) and General Maxwell Taylor. Although not officially members, Dean Rusk (Secretary of State) and Robert S. McNamara (Secretary of Defence) also attended meetings.

At a meeting of this committee at the White House on 4th November, 1961, it was decided to call this covert action program for sabotage and subversion against Cuba, Operation Mongoose. Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy also decided that General Edward Lansdale (Staff Member of the President's Committee on Military Assistance) should be placed in charge of the operation. One of Lansdale's first decisions was to appoint William Harvey as head of Task Force W. Harvey's brief was to organize a broad range of activities that would help to bring down Castro's government.

In early 1962 Harvey brought Ted Shackley into the project as deputy chief of JM/WAVE. In April, 1962, Shackley was involved in delivering supplies to Johnny Roselli as part of the plan to assassinate Fidel Castro. Later that year he became head of the station. In doing so, he gained control over Operation 40 or what some now called Shackley’s Secret Team. Shackley was also responsible for gathering intelligence and recruiting spies in Cuba. Most of the anti-Castro Cubans that the CIA managed to infiltrate into Cuba were captured and either imprisoned or executed.

In the winter of 1962 Eddie Bayo claimed that two officers in the Red Army based in Cuba wanted to defect to the United States. Bayo added that these men wanted to pass on details about atomic warheads and missiles that were still in Cuba despite the agreement that followed the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Bayo's story was eventually taken up by several members of the anti-Castro community including William Pawley, Gerry P. Hemming, John Martino, Felipe Vidal Santiago and Frank Sturgis. Pawley became convinced that it was vitally important to help get these Soviet officers out of Cuba.

William Pawley contacted Shackley at JM WAVE. Shackley decided to help Pawley organize what became known as Operation Tilt. He also assigned Rip Robertson, a fellow member of the CIA in Miami, to help with the operation. David Morales, another CIA agent, also became involved in this attempt to bring out these two Soviet officers.

In June, 1963, a small group, including William Pawley, Eddie Bayo, Rip Robertson, John Martino, and Richard Billings, a journalist working for Life Magazine, secretly arrived in Cuba. They were unsuccessful in their attempts to find these Soviet officers and they were forced to return to Miami. Bayo remained behind and it was rumoured that he had been captured and executed.

In the autumn of 1963 Ted Shackley and Carl E. Jenkins were using members of Operation 40 in their attempts to try and kill Fidel Castro. According to the interview he gave in 2005, Gene Wheaton claims it was Jenkins who redirected this team to kill John F. Kennedy.

...cont'd

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKshackley.htm

[Dover]

66. Most "Conspiracy Theories" seem mild next to the real deal.

They are truly capable of any evil one could possibly imagine in their darkest nightmares.

[Dover]

67. **

[AZBlue]

69. We've had a shadow government almost as long as we've had a government

Thanks for the book recommendation! Sounds interesting.