Why is Israel still killing civilians with impunity?

[bigtree]

Is it retaliation for Hizbollah's rockets? Are the attacks mere reprisals?

Or are they defensive? If this is defense, what do we expect will be the result of their continued assaults on populated areas of Lebanon? They don't seem to be having any significant effect on the ability of Hizbollah combatants to launch rockets into Israel.


Israel pounds Lebanon as US presses for UN resolution

12 minutes ago

BEIRUT (AFP) - Israeli planes blasted targets far into the north of Lebanon killing 12 civilians as diplomats struggled for a UN resolution to end the fighting.

Eleven civilians were killed and 15 wounded in a dawn raid on a bridge in the northern Akkar plain close to the Syrian border, security officials said.

Several of those killed had gone to the bridge to inspect damage when the Israeli aircraft returned for a second bombing.

Israeli fighter-bombers also carried out repeated strikes on Beirut's Shiite southern suburbs, a Hezbollah stronghold. One civilian was killed in a raid on a road near the eastern city of Baalbek, officials said Friday.

The Israeli air force said it had hit more than 130 targets in Lebanon in the 24 hours to Friday morning.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060811/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflict

[seriousstan]

1. 5..4...3....2....1 Off to the dungeon with you

G,bye

[Beelzebud]

2. Get ready.

Everytime I've questioned Israel's actions in Lebanon, I've been called a neo-nazi, an anti-semite, and a number of other bullshit names.

To some, Israel can do no wrong. Ever.

[jseankil]

3. The Israel government has no plan

They think if they keep bombing they don't need to face this fact.

[MrCoffee]

5. Oh come on...

No government would ever start a relentless bombing campaign without a clear vision and plan for ending the hostilities.

[tabasco]

8. LMAO!

I hope that was humor.

[bigtree]

9. How much of this campaign is political, how much is prudent?

that's an equation that is a typical calculation at this point in a quagmire.

[jseankil]

10. Someone skipped over chaper 2 of Rumsfeld's Art of War.

;)

[paparush]

22. I totally agree...they've had this plan drawn up for years...Logistics are

a bitch and do not happen spur of the moment...except of course for our *ahem* 'rolling start' in Iraq.

[bigtree]

6. I wonder how much of the campaign is political cover at this point

divorced from any real pursuit of Hizbollah. I can imagine a situation where the Cabinet is approving a continued assault just to find some 'victory' they can point to to justify the campaign to the Israeli citizens who must be getting nervous with all of the Israeli deaths (soldiers and civilians) mounting.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[malaise]

7. LBC America showed

what was left of the boat and lots of smoke. It was clearly destroyed and sinking. How Israel can deny this, only they know. This time there is video and pictures. Will soon find a link.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14258758/
<snip>
Israeli boat reportedly hit
Hezbollah TV reported Friday that guerrillas destroyed an Israeli gunboat off the coast of Tyre, killing or wounding the crew of 12.

The Israeli army denied the Hezbollah claim. Israeli vessels have been enforcing a blockade of the Lebanese coast since fighting began 30 days ago.

Another link - no pix yet.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2006/08/11/1747505-ap.html

[deaniac21]

11. This is the way they view it in Israel.

[jseankil]

12. the ratio for killing innocents to terrorists is so off the mark though

for every terrorist killed 8 innocents have to die? What does Israel hope to accomplish in doing this?

[bigtree]

13. What I don't understand in that equation is that the Lebanese

child is still at risk from Israel's strident decision to fire anyway, despite the risk of harming that Lebanese child. It is hypocricy to be so concerned about the innocent lives of Israeli children, and prosecute their campaign with such disregard for the lives of the Lebanese children. It is a weak argument to point to what Hizbollah is doing as a standard from which to judge Israel's actions.

[jseankil]

15. Oh you mean saying "we didn't intend to kill any innocents" isn't enough

I thought as long as you say you didn't mean to harm innocents it's okay if you do and then blame the terrorists for doing so.

[bigtree]

23. the protocols are specific about the warnings as well

they don't release the combatant from the obligations under the other provisions protecting civilians:

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/93.htm

Article 57: Precautions in Attack

1. In the conduct of military operations, constant care shall be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects.
2. With respect to attacks, the following precautions shall be taken:
1. those who plan or decide upon an attack shall:
1. do everything feasible to verify that the objectives to be attacked are neither civilians nor civilian objects and are not subject to special protection but are military objectives within the meaning of paragraph 2 of Article 52 and that it is not prohibited by the provisions of this Protocol to attack them;

2. take all feasible precautions in the choice of means and methods of attack with a view to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects;

3. refrain from deciding to launch any attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated;

2. an attack shall be canceled or suspended if it becomes apparent that the objective is not a military one or is subject to special protection or that the attack may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated;

3. effective advance warning shall be given of attacks which may affect the civilian population, unless circumstances do not pemmit.

3. When a choice is possible between several military objectives for obtaining a similar military advantage, the objective to be selected shall be that the attack on which may be expected to cause the least danger to civilian lives and to civilian objects.

4. In the conduct of military operations at sea or in the air, each Party to the conflict shall, in conformity with its rights and duties under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, take all reasonable precautions to avoid losses of civilian lives and damage to civilian objects

5. No provision of this article may be construed as authorizing any attacks against the civilian population, civilians or civilian objects.

[mtice]

14. Why are people still posting

anti-Semitic rants with impunity?

Where was your concern over the past six plus decades when fanatical Muslims were killing Jews with impunity?

*crickets*

[jseankil]

16. Sir, please point out the anti-Semitic rant in this thread.

Because I don't see one. Please cut and paste the anti-Semitic rant in this thread.

[mtice]

17. Here you go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1886083&mesg_id=1886083

[jseankil]

19. What exactly is anti-Semitic about the thread sir, can you explain?

Throwing such lables at someone is a personal attack, if you can't explain what's anti-Semitic about a post then don't accuse someone of it.

Sorry but the fact is that Israel has killed 8+ innocents for every 1 terrorist killed. Sorry if you find such facts as anti-Semitic because if you do then I assume you find Israelis actions to be anti-Semitic since thats what the statements are based off of.

[bigtree]

21. I expressed concern. You can't smear me with that racism.

I'm anti-violence, period. If that doesn't cover it then I don't know how to help you.

By 'impunity', I mean without sanction, without accountability to the laws that govern such engagements which impact civilians. No one has a vehicle, I suppose, to mount an effective challenge to the assaults.

What I don't understand, mtice, is why the lives of the innocent Lebanese civilians are not given the same importance as those Israelis who have been slaughtered underneath Hizbollah's rocket attacks. I'm not convinced that Israel's targets were of a military nature whose value was sufficient to outweigh the innocent lives lost. That's what the law proscribes for such engagements, despite the concern about military targets. The law is clear that the fact of civilians being used as 'human shields' does not release Israel from their responsibility to protect civilian lives as outlined in the Protocol.

Long-winded way to say that Innocent lives should always be balanced against the value of the target. In that equation, the innocent lives should not be sacrificed for dubious or uncertain objectives. I think the evidence of Hizbollah's continued ability to launch rockets into Israel should give pause to those who still believe their objective of stifiling Hizbollah can still be achieved through airstrikes on these populated areas. The cost of innocent Lebanese civilian lives is too high a price to be paid for such uncertain objectives.

That's not anti-semitism friend. Enough with the smear.

[leftchick]

18. because bolton and gillerman are blocking all efforts for a ceasefire

even the Russian one put forth last night for a 72 hour humanitarian ceasfire was rejected out of hand. They are fucking war criminals.

:grr:

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

20. Been going on for forty years---because they can. Might makes right.

[bigtree]

24. those with the most force certainly do dictate events

doesn't make it 'right', of course

[bigtree]

25. UN rights body condemns Israel for "massive violations of human rights"

Fri Aug 11, 2006

UN rights body condemns Israel over Lebanon

GENEVA (Reuters) - The United Nations new Human Rights Council on Friday voted by a big majority to condemn Israel for its current military assault in Lebanon and for "massive violations of human rights" there.

A total of 27 members -- including Russia, China, India and Latin American states on the new 47-nation Council -- voted for the text while 11 -- seven European Union members, Canada, Japan, Romania and Ukraine -- voted no.

Eight others -- including Switzerland, South Korea, Nigeria and Philippines -- abstained.

Earlier, countries critical of the resolution -- including Israel itself -- rejected the text as one-sided and unbalanced for focussing on Israeli actions and making no reference to Hizbollah rocket attacks on Israeli population centres.

Diplomats said some of the Latin American states and Russia -- which had earlier voiced concern that the resolution ignored Hizbollah and its role in sparking the conflict -- seemed to have been won over by a late change in the text.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-08-11T170841Z_01_L11807745_RTRUKOC_0_UK-MIDEAST-LEBANON-RIGHTS.xml&src=rss


11 August 2006

Statement by Ms. Louise Arbour, United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights

On the Occasion of the 2nd Special Session of the Human Rights Council

Geneva , 11 August 2006

Mr. President,
Distinguished Members of the Human Rights Council,
Excellencies,
Ladies and Gentlemen

I am grateful for this opportunity to address the second special session of the Human Rights Council . The accumulated and increasing toll of civilian deaths and injuries in Lebanon and Israel , the massive displacement of populations and the destruction of civilian infrastructure in Lebanon require the intervention of this Council to impress upon the parties to the conflict the urgent need to comply with their obligations under international human rights and humanitarian law.

Nearly a month from its beginning and worsening by the day, this crisis demands a firm and meaningful response from this Council. Such response should meet the requirements of the high mandate bestowed upon this body and the hopes of the people whose protection depends on its deliberations. It is imperative that we devote all our efforts to an immediate cessation of the hostilities, to save lives, and ensure justice for the victims and accountability for violations of human rights and international humanitarian law.

Mr. President,

The most basic human right is the right to life: under no circumstances can anyone be arbitrarily deprived of his or her life. I, and many others, have repeatedly reminded all parties to the conflict that in carrying out military operations, they must distinguish at all times between civilians and combatants. Civilians must never be the object of a direct intentional attack. The anticipated incidental loss of civilian life and damage to civilian property must always be proportionate to the pursuit of a concrete and direct military objective. Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited and civilians must not be used to shield military objectives from attack.

While effective advance warning of attacks which may affect civilian populations must be given, compliance with this legal obligation does not relieve the parties from their other obligations under international law regarding the protection of civilians. These are some of the fundamental principles that all belligerents must adhere to.

When these legal obligations regulating the conduct of hostilities are violated, personal criminal responsibility may ensue, particularly for those in position of command and control.

Thus, I reminded all belligerents that war crimes and crimes against humanity may be committed even by those who believe, accurately or not, that their combat is a just one and their cause a worthy pursuit.

Yet, a lmost on a daily basis, i nformation from the field indicates an alarming pattern in the scale and choice of targets by all sides in the conflict. The deaths of hundreds of civilians in documented and corroborated incidents, involving either random or targeted attacks on civilian vehicles or buildings, strongly suggest the indiscriminate use of force.

On 30 July, the world was shocked by the Israeli attack on the residential building in Qana that killed scores of civilians, including a large number of children, who had sought shelter there. Hundreds of people have died in Lebanon , while the survivors have endured and continue to endure large-scale destruction of critical infrastructure and utter devastation. But, to date, Israeli attacks affecting civilians continue unabated.

Also unrelenting is Hezbollah’s indiscriminate shelling of densely populated centers in Northern Israel which has brought death and destruction. There have also been repeated allegations of Hezbollah’s systematic use of civilians as human shields.

Mr. President,

There is a clear and urgent need to bring clarity to a situation in which facts and allegations are now given the same credit but without the benefit of systematic, independent, thorough and credible scrutiny.

There have been pressing calls for a comprehensive, high-level inquiry into reports of serious violations of human rights law and international humanitarian law in Israel and Lebanon to be led by internationally renowned experts. The independence, impartiality and objectivity of such an inquiry must be guaranteed not only by the credibility of the panel members, but also by the scope and methodology of their mandate. Within a human rights framework, the inquiry should be primarily concerned with the plight of the victims. It should address all violations by all parties, and lay the foundation for possible measures of reparation and accountability.

Mr. President,

Distinguished Members of the Human Rights Council,

After the destruction of the last bridge over the Litani River , I am particularly concerned by the humanitarian situation of the population remaining in the south of Lebanon . They are in dire need of food, water, and medical assistance, which humanitarian workers are no longer able to deliver.

The plight of displaced persons in the war zone and of refugees in neighbouring countries is also of grave concern. Their right to food, to health, to adequate housing, the right of their children to education must be respected.

The magnitude of the suffering of civilians under attack demands a full-scale commitment and concerted, decisive action by the international community as a whole. As far as this Council is concerned, its intervention should be directed to the people whose fundamental rights have been and continue to be violated, to those who have suffered the loss of family and friends, who have been injured and displaced, who now endure hunger and severe deprivation because of the destruction of their possessions. The Council’s commitment to exposing all human rights violations and to addressing the calls of all victims for reparation and justice will help those affected by this conflict to start rebuilding their shattered lives.

http://www.ohchr.org/english/press/media.htm