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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:40 PM
Original message
I am going to ask a controversial question......
and then put on my flame-retardant suit. I would love to hear serious answers as this is a serious question.
I was on another site and someone had this quote as their tagline.

"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."

As I am a confirmed agnostic, I can't confirm or deny the first part of this incalculable statement by the poster, however, my question stems from the latter part of the pronouncement. When was the last time an American Soldier actually died for MY freedom? In Iraq, they are regrettably dying for a presidential lie or at BEST in an ill conceived effort to prove their patriotism. Did the unfortunates who died in Vietnam die to keep American free? How about Korea? I suppose the argument could be made that WWII cost lives that were spent to keep American free from outside invaders.

Ok, enough from me. Tell me if I am completely off my rocker or convince me that our soldiers are actually dying to preserve my freedom.

Oh, and btw, did those 50-100K innocent civiians die for my freedom also?
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Monkeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Freedom what fricking freedom
I fought for the brother to the right and left off me in Nam. Bush has your freedoms in his signing statements
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Amen to the signing statements and freedom
And thank you for your service to what used to be America.
So sorry it means so little to so many now.
BHN
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. O, yes he does.
And I want those signing statements to stop.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. To paraphrase Patton,
"Soldiers don't die for freedom, they kill for freedom." Puts a slightly different spin on it, eh?
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well I would say WWII...
There is no doubt Hitler was bent on world domination...not that he could have actually conquered the U.S., but a Hitler dominated Europe would have been very bad not only for Europe of course, but for the U.S as well...

I suppose if you were an African American you might say the Civil War...
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. Except for the final solution how would Hitler's government
differ from Bush*'s? :shrug: and Bush* is not gone yet. Liberals may still be in store for a final solution...
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MoseyWalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
5. first, what's a "defining force"
and once I determine what that is, I have a multitude of historical individuals to choose from.

Who defines the "defining force"

I do. You do. It's called being an individual.
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idgiehkt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. bravo!
it's a strange phrase to start off with. thanks for breaking that meme in half, lol.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
6.  Soldiers don't choose where they go
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 11:52 PM by MadMaddie
and Soldiers don't analyze their orders.....Our military has a valid reason to exist but when you get greedy and traitorous leaders in power and they abuse the US military power soldiers are put in the middle....

our soldiers have no choice but to believe that they are fighting for our freedom and I think we have an obligation to support them and not the mission....because if they don't believe in what they are doing they will let down their guard and get killed.

If our soldiers were still all in Afghanistan I would say yes they are fighting for our freedom and were engaged in trying to kill the bastard who attacked America....

I don't think you are off your rocker....I think you have the right to ask the question.

No flame here!
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. The first part of the question: how about Mithras?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras

Mithras was the central savior god of Mithraism, a syncretic Hellenistic mystery religion of male initiates that developed in the Eastern Mediterranean in the 2nd and 1st centuries BCE and was practiced in the Roman Empire from the 1st century BCE to the 5th century CE. Parthian coins and documents bear a double date with a 64 year interval that represents Mithras' ascension to heaven, traditionally given as the equivalent of 208 BCE, 64 years after his birth. The Romanized Greek Plutarch says that in 67 BCE a large band of pirates in Ciliciaon the southeast coast of Anatolia were practicing "secret rites" of Mithras...
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
8. All American GIs died for their country.
The freedom part is questionable after WWII.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
9. Our troops died for the freedom to rape and murder a teenage girl in Iraq
Her name was Abeer. She was violated and shot to death by American soldiers, who then set her body on fire and killed her family.

Her name was Abeer. "Mission Accomplished," my ass.
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Democrats_win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
10. Like gay WW2 GIs who couldn't do ANYTHING let alone marry?
Freedom is not really possible for humans since we have certain basic food, housing and health needs. We barely have the freedoms gauranteed by the constitution. The wealthy have their own entanglements including lies and sins. Americans have their own special prison: the "free market" which makes your life worth less every day you live.
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
11. Well, Jesus didn't die for me... he's been dead for more than 2000 years
and how he lived and died is of no interest to me. He's merely an historical figure based mostly on myth and fantasy. How people have chosen to interpret his life as it affects theirs is up to them, and seems like a huge waste of time.

American GI's haven't died for any American's so-called freedoms in more than 60 years.

They've been dying for the organized profits and greed of the military industrial complex. They're just US taxpayer funded, bought and paid for murderers for hire in a global scheme of proliferation and profiteering.

I certainly wouldn't choose to serve under the command of the most criminal and corrupt regime on the planet today, nor would I encourage anyone to do so.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
14. at best, they're dying for our affluence
Edited on Fri Aug-11-06 12:09 AM by Cocoa
I think people in the back of their minds firmly believe that our imperialism is benefitting us all economically, and if we withdrew from the world we would become poorer.

But in fact a narrow elite benefits greatly from our wars, and the rest of us pay for it.
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idgiehkt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
15. this just screams "ungrateful!" at you before you can even
start thinking about it. It just makes me want to say to whoever is saying it"f*ck you and the white horse you rode in on" before I even formulate a real response
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papercut Donating Member (80 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
16. When was the last time an American Soldier actually died for MY freedom?
1945 or thereabouts.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
17. BRING THEM HOME!!!
:grr:

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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. Thank you Swamp Rat for keeping
your eye on the ball... Bring them home now should be the only thing we are concerned with... Bring our troops home now....
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
18. They are not
This crap is an attempt to guilt you into support of a useless war. Or a war for imperialism. Right wingers try to play you. They feel so superior. They know they are lying, they just think they can gain an advantage and they know you are honest and sincere and so try to play the guilt card.

Not one of those poor effing soldiers died to protect our freedom. They only died in the cause of empire, the ambitions of the PNAC. These liars try to USE their deaths to their own advantage.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
19. sigh
the soldier may very well be making a greater sacrifice than jesus, the soldier is not the son of god, when he dies he is dead forever, no soldier ever arose on the third day and said, "hey, kids, just joking, it's all better now"

it is the soldier's job to serve where he is sent, since he can't know all of the strategic reasons behind why he might be sent to korea or iraqnam or whatever

it is not our duty to crap on the soldier or her sacrifice, it is our duty to crap on "leaders" who use soldiers to inflate profits at halliburton or exxon mobil

your question is unanswerable in one sense, perhaps vietnam or another stupid war DID accomplish something, if only tell the "commies" that we're crazy maniacs who need to be stepped around cautiously, we can't know the alternative universes, we can't know that the soldiers who died in vietnam didn't help prevent a nuclear war by causing our opponent to handle us more gingerly

for the record, i'm opposed to the wars in korea, iraq, vietnam, grenada, panama -- i support the invasion of afghanistan since their leader harbored those who attacked us -- but we can't say out of hand that these wars did NOTHING and the soldiers died for nothing

it may be that if, say, we had not done that stupid action in korea, things would be worse -- or things would be better -- i don't have enough military strategy to know nor does the average private

the soldier follows orders and is willing to put his life/limb/sanity on the line for me

"greater love hath no man than this"

don't crap on the soldier, ain't their job to argue

crap on bad leaders

as i say, to my mind, the soldier's sacrifice is greater than christ's, because the soldier is not going to rise again
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. good point about the religious aspect of the statement
I don't see how death is a sacrifice when you know you're coming back. Even if it hurt a lot.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
20. No man (or woman) can give you freedom. It is an inalienable right.
And governments cannot give you freedom, only take it away.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
21. I don't know if anyone will see this since
its written the following day, but thank you for all your responses. I cruise around alot of forums, and this is the ONLY one I feel comfortable enough with to truly convey my feelings. Discounting the trolls, I feel like I am with family when I am at DU. What a fantastic bunch of like minded progressive people we have here. I am looking forward to the day when progressives like you guys have the REAL power again to change the world for the better. And I am confident that we are, in fact, changing it even now.....FOR THE BETTER!
Thanks again for all your support.
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
22. Don't tell the French. n/t
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
23. It's a cliche
Pounded into us since childhood. The soldiers fight & die for our freedom. They need us to believe this, because they need recruits. Fighting for freedom sounds noble & honorable. Fighting for oil contracts & political games - not so much.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
26. I have two combat tours in the infantry.
I can assure you that neither time was I defending your freedom.

Why does the US have to be the policeman of the world? I thought republicans were supposed to be against that type of thing. Stay out of foreign entanglements and all that.

I think we should work closely with and support the UN to try and solve problems, but not do it unilaterally, like the Bush corporate cabal. Of course, their objective has nothing to do with solving problems. The republicans only want to make the rich richer.

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Said another Veteran to me:
It's good to die for your country, but to die just to steal another country's oil ain't no good.
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Blue Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
27. It isn't about soldiers and freedom at all...
Its about Christian Nationalism. It's all a marketing package. They tap in to America's need to be the good guy, and they the use Christ's image to represent good, and the GI who willingly volunteers his life for his country as the poster boy for freedom - even though you're right about GI's not having to give their lives or our freedom since WWII. Christian Nationalists just want to wrap the cross in the flag, and boil everything down to good vs. evil and make everything appear black and white (Never mind that Jesus would run them out of the temples for being Pharisees).
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
28. Some day in August 1945
Since then they've died mostly for multinational corporations' property.
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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
30. This is John Wayne and Audie Murphy
and a generation that's had too many jingoistic films passed along to it.

The real offense here is "offered to." Even in those films, only the sociopaths said "I'm joining to die for my country." They were the ones who ended up single-handedly charging a machine gun nest or falling on a hand grenade and gloriously, bloodlessly dying to dramatic music and the stunned expressions of their comrades.

"Offered to die"? Hardly. Joined out of some youthful sense of patriotism, perhaps, or simple revenge or, more likely, they were drafted and had no choice. In any case, no one offers to die. They may offer to fight, certainly, but death is something we all try to avoid.

So let the chickenhawks talk about "dying for our freedoms." They need such platitudes to support their pogo-stick patriotism, as they dismiss American military deaths with "They volunteered they knew what they were getting into."

Some of us know better.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
32. They haven't.
While our military has been busy, and many soldiers have died, since I was born in 1960, I can't think of any military action that actually involved defending my freedom.

Defending corporate/empire interests, yes. My freedom, no. As a matter of fact, this latest cluster of military actions have been about reducing my freedoms through fear.
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