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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:22 PM
Original message
How would you recommend we stop terrorism?
I already forsee the standard answers: get rid of bush, don't practice terrorism ourselves, eat more fiber, etc.

But terrorism has been around for a bit. The USS cole, first WTC attack, Oklahoma city - why did mcveigh do it, did we make him mad or piss in his wheaties or something?

You're in charge. There are people out there, who for whatever reason (foreign and domestic) want to kill a lot of people. Maybe they are nut cases, maybe out for revenge, religious wack jobs, anarchists, etc and so on.
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JAYJDF Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Funny, we can't even stop US gangs, why
would we be able to absolutely stop every insane person from performing a terrorist act? We divert all the money wasted in Iraq and put it towards real homeland security. Borders and all if we're serious.
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Live by the golden rule
something these fundie fatheads seem to have skipped.
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Blackthorn Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
82. Spot on.
Cutting Israel off would also be a good start.
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respublicus Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #82
119. 99% of the terrorism is fabricated by Western "intelligence" agencies
The way to stop terrorism is for 99% of people to catch onto that!
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #119
143. Damn, I want to know what you're smoking.
Take a deep breath, and take off the tin-foil hat...
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. For starters I wouldn't let them get away with it for FIVE FUCKING
YEARS and still be alive and at large.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. Stop washing your hair until Bin Laden is caught.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Did I just warp into
freeperville and not realize it? :puke:
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fuzzypolitics Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. Regardless, do you think it will work? n/t
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. How can you see the screen with that hood over your head?
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fuzzypolitics Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. I cut holes in the front :)
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 08:45 PM by fuzzypolitics
I do appreciate the personal attack. Thanks.

See more at: http://fuzzy.blog-city.com
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. For a nice person like you - anytime.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. Wow. That would require opposable thumbs.
Well done.

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fuzzypolitics Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. Thumbs? That's plural. I manage with just one...
But the one I have left works pretty well :)

See more at: http://fuzzy.blog-city.com
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #60
72. Ha ha. Fuzzy.blog. Fat chance pal. I wouldn't waste a click.
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fuzzypolitics Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. No one's asking you to. It's still a free country n/t
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #76
120. heh heh heh, you might be wrong there.
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Dubya, is that you?
You thought we were gonna ask you about the pigs!

:rofl:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. Don't tax the man. He's on vacashun.
:rofl:
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
38. and what "Muslim terrorists" have we "caught," exactly?
How about McVeigh?

Simple solutions for simple-minded people. For some, the world is black and white, us and them, "christian" and muslim, ad nauseum.
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Wheezy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
46. What about the Christian Terrorists?
Wrap 'em in tortillas or something? Sheesh.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #46
96. gay porn mags :) (nt)
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Wheezy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #96
124. That's much funnier. :) n/t
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FearofFutility Donating Member (764 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
94. OK.......
I hereby withdraw my welcome that I extended to you on another thread.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #94
118. I always miss the good stuff.
:-(
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. make it a law enforcement priority
make it a foreign policy priority to attack the root causes--poverty, dislocation, disenfranchisement
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. A winner. Thank you for your participation. Give this person
a cigar.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Send the police after them?
We arrested, tried and convicted the people who set bombs off in the WTC back in 1993. I remember reading that they were cheering loudly from their jail cells in 2001.

No deterrent there, IMO.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. with the bush cabal in charge
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 08:40 PM by leftofthedial
they ignored the kinds of warnings that allowed us to catch terrorists prior to the coup of 2000.

your statement is nonsensical. when you don't use law enforcement to detect and apprehend terrorists, and your foreign policy antagonizes terrorist organizations, it doesn't work as a deterrent, therefore it doesn't work? WTF?
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. Surely you don't think 9-11 was planned after Bush came to office?
It had been in the works for many years.

What I am saying is that police work is mostly reactive and insufficient to address the threat. And what are Al Qaeda's foreign policy demands, anyway? That we look away while fundamentalist Sharia law consumes the entire Middle East, a la the Taliban? How do you appease that?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #39
54. yeah. uh huh.
what's your solution?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #39
93. your solution?
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #93
97. I don't really have one.
I think the cause of terrorism is Islamic Fundamentalism. I don't know how one would defang or deflate the extremist practicioners of that religion, but doing so is the answer to their terrorism.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #97
104. what about christian fundamentalism?
what about jewish fundamentalism?

what about neoconservative political fundamentalism?

rising fundamentalism is global phenomenon. I think you are close to identifying the problem, but it is bigger than just Islam.

The foreign policy component of my suggestion was intended by me specifically to help to cut off the sources of fundamentalism--poverty, dislocation (physical and cultural), and ignorance. Perhaps we are in violent agreement.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. Indeed, fundamentalism is bad in all its stripes.
But right now, the scariest and most dangerous one looks to me like the Islamic variety.

I fully agree with you about foreign policy and addressing our past sins, but I just don't know what it will take to convice such unreasonable people (the fundamentalist leaders). I am really at a loss.
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #97
108. "Terrorism=Islamic Fundamentalism" is too easy.
Sorry, not calling you an Islamophobe at all, I just thought this article excerpt was relavent...

Every religion has the potential to be abused by some and Islam is no exception. However, what Islamophobes would have us believe about this particular religion is that one splotch is representative of the entire spectrum. One needs only apply this to Christianity, the most familiar religion in the West, to recognize the flaws in this narrow-minded approach.

The Holy Bible contains numerous verses that can be interpreted in such a way that makes it appear that Christianity advocates murder, intolerance, slavery, misogyny, and a long list of other evils. Consider the following passages:

* Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)
* But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay before me. (Luke 19:27)
* And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel. And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor. (Numbers 25:4-5)
* Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. (Deuteronomy 12:2-3)
* If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; , of the gods of the people which round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the end of the earth even unto the end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)

Removed from their textual and historical contexts, these kinds of passages project a startlingly violent and oppressive picture of Christianity that is completely at odds with the general perception of the religion in the West. Imagine, now, if these and other similar Biblical passages were accompanied almost exclusively with images of the Crusaders, the Inquisition, the Third Reich, the Ku Klux Klan, David Koresh, the Westboro Baptists, abortion clinic bombers, and many other Christian extremists. And also, what if, these images were mixed with talking points and a steady stream of sound bites laden with some of Adolf Hitler's hateful declarations:

* oday I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. (Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Ch. 2)
* My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. (Munich Speech, April 12, 1922)

With a lens fixated on these types of Christians, and coupled with an antagonistic, literal, and selective interpretation of the Bible, one would naturally develop a rather skewed impression of Christianity, no matter how fair and balanced the presentation would be purported to be.

Religion has the potential for great good but when in the wrong hands, it also has the potential for great evil. When Islamophobes conflate Osamaism with Islam and simply blame the religion, one of the consequences is shutting down discussion of the social, political, and economic reasons and motivations behind many of the conflicts taking place around the world today.


full: http://www.amperspective.com/html/the_struggle_against....
http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/33820

(bold/emphasis mine)

Why don't we point to Hitler's Catholicism... an extreme fundamentalist Catholicism... as the cause of his aggression?
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #108
144. But that's not what I said.
I said Islamic terrorism is caused by Islamic fundamentalism. Regardless of whether or not I agree with that article that Hitler was motivated in any way by Catholicism (I don't, by the way), my point is not that terrorism is confined to Islamists, as it clearly isn't.

But at the moment, Islamic terrorism rightly appears to be the most dangerous, and the most pressing to address. Addressing it means targeting fundamentalism, and I wish I knew how.
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Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. This might actually work :) How far-sighted and thoughtful - nice n/t
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. i didn't know osama bin laden was poor or disenfranchised
it's interesting how it's always the fault of the poor that we have terror

i'm not aware of any poor person who funded a terror attack, but that's just me and no doubt i'm terribly ill informed somehow
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
59. OBL flew one of the 9-11 planes?
I'll be damned!
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. he provided funds and training
the actual hijackers appeared to be middle class students

i'm not aware that ANY poor person was involved at any time
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #62
73. why do you assume the "poor" in question have to be the actors?
these middle class people are outraged in part over the treatment of other muslims by former colonial powers, the US and their Israeli allies.

most suicide bombers (you do consider them to be terrorists?) are poor. To carry out an international plot like the one in the mythical 9-11 bombing story requires that the actors be plausibly in place. It is unlikely that a poor, dislocated Palestinian, for example, would plausibly be in the US to study.

Your argument that since all terrorists are not poor then poverty has no role in international terrorism is illogical.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #73
84. my argument is stop blaming the poor
it is completely unjust, illogical, and unproven

no poor person is hijacking your airplane today, most of the truly poor have never even stepped foot on an airplane

sheesh

talk about "facts not in evidence"

i am sick of the poor being blamed every time the issue of terror comes up, the truth is if everyone was poor we'd be too busy scrabbling for food, water, and medicines to stay alive to be worried about political games
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #84
90. I did not blame the poor
I said make fighting poverty a foreign policy priority. Or would you rather that we work to create more poverty?

sheesh
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #90
113. It's not a matter of saying that poverty isn't
something worth trying to dispose of.

It's a question of whether or not disposing of poverty would eradicate terrorism.

Little evidence for that proposition.

But eliminating poverty is still a thoroughly meritorious goal.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #40
79. BTW, he is not as rich as most believe
He is reported to have been disowned by his family and has been disenfranchised by the Saudis.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #40
83. do you think these things would not work?
why?
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AusGail Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
56. You hit the nail right on the head.
Somehow Bush's policy of invading Iraq when 19 of the 9/11 terrorists came from Saudi Arabia just didn't seem to work. If people are treated badly for any length of time they will eventually retaliate by which ever means possible.

A good start would be to create fair trade throughout the world, not free trade.

Stop supplying WMD's to selected countries

Treat the UN with respect...First move - Get rid of that moron that has a face only a mother could love - Bolton.

I feel that the first step to getting this Universe back on the right footing was by getting rid of Lieberman. Its still a long walk, but every long walk starts with a first step.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #56
75. knock on wood that this first step
is the first in a long, successful journey
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
9. McVeigh was fucked up when he came home from the Gulf War
He was better off not going to war, imho.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. as we all are,
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thats just it, you can't stop terrorists.
Regardless of how fair and balanced mankind makes the world you will always have a few that will hate whatever it is they decide to hate. They will turn to acts of violence against innocents because they seek attention to their cause. When words fail, violence gets reaction. Look at the anti war movement of the late 60's and how the weathermen who started out as pacifists turned to violence after Kent State and the feeling their words weren't working fast enough to end the war.
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. I agree.
I don't think you could ever really stop violence, terra-ists. No country will ever be able to eliminate them.

I guess the best thing you can do is to control it.

Same with another War-The War on Drugs. It will never end, could never be stopped. Controlling it is the only option (although I feel we should just legalize all drugs and get it off the streets, where so much more violence and death occurs.
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tnlefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
88. But even with the 'war on drugs' the spraying that causes lose of crops,
illness, etc. and the bloodshed that goes along with it without any plan to give the people an alternative just breeds resentment and anger. Perhaps if more people read John Perkins book, Confessions of an Economic Hitman, and got a more broad-spectrum picture of what is done in the name of multi-national corporations more of a sense of understanding could start.

I remember watching a documentary relating to the indigenous people of Columbia and they used coca leaves for nutrition. One of the tribal elders stated, "leave it to the white man to find a way to make it wicked."

Perhaps returning to the Golden Rule is what is in order and the sooner the better, IMHO.
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #88
110. We can live by the Golden Rule
all we want but others still won't. It won't do any good if we live by it but everyone else doesn't.
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
53. Good points.
and I always like a Weatherman refrence.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
65. You are right, you cant stop terrorists....
you said " Regardless of how fair and balanced mankind makes the world you will always have a few that will hate whatever it is they decide to hate. They will turn to acts of violence against innocents because they seek attention to their cause. When words fail, violence gets reaction. "
Do you realize that you just described the chimp and his regime?
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #65
81. It goes for anyone that replaces bombs for words.
Violence is the last resort of the desperate. When someone turns to violence to get his/her way, they have lost the fight. Remember independence was not won by the gun alone. No war has been won by guns alone, there were always someone behind the fighting trying to work a compromise an end to the fighting. GW inc. seem to have never learned that fact in life.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
141. good writing.
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Rick Myers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
11. Terror has existed thru history
And, historically, the first combatant to use terror ends up winning the conflict. Intel is the biggest asset in fighting terror, but throwing money at it is a foolish thing to do.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. Talk to them and find out the reason for hating us and then work on that
no problem is so big it can't be solved you just have to make an effort to understand the whys. war in itself is an admission of failure, nothing more.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Let's say a big reason is that your liberalism....
...deeply offends and threatens their religious beliefs. They don't want their daughters leaping around semi-nude in mini-skirts like Britney Spears, and won't accept your tolerance toward homosexuality.

What then?
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
106. as if that is a reason to kill, I don't think so. try again
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #106
126. It may not be to you, but it sure is to some fundamentalists.
To deny that is to stick your head in the sand.
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Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
15. Terrorism is a method - you will never wipe it out completely
You can, however, disrupt "organized terror" via police-type operations, and stop the proliferation and need for so-called "terrorist training camps" (which are mostly madrases in Pakistan) by giving people a real education, real opportunity, a reason to value their own lives, and therefore view yours as also having value. It's an extremely complicated issue that really can't be settled with firearms. IMO

The foregoing is strictly my personal opinion. If said opinion differs with yours please understand that the poster in no way intended to offend your sensibilities and preemptively apologizes for any mental anguish you may have experienced
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
19. Terrorism in some form has been around forever.
I don't expect we will ever be able to get rid of it, which is why the "war on terror" is such a ridiculous concept. You can't have a war on a *method*, which is what terrorism is -- it's a method of fighting against a more powerful perceived enemy by attacking their civilian targets. It has been used for centuries and will never go away. It will also be impossible to prevent all such attacks, no matter what measures are taken, unless we are willing to live in a completely controlled, totalitarian society. Maybe not even then.

And there will always be people with an axe to grind. Right now it's Al Qaeda and the like, but there are also extremists of other stripes -- such as white supremacists, people who bomb abortion clinics, and crazy people with their own agendas. I think it's fair to say that the right wingers' kill-them-all philosophy is absurd because we can't kill them all. There will always be others.

Seems that the only possibility of reducing the risk of being blown up by angry fanatics might be to give known hostile groups fewer reasons to want to come after us. Maybe if our deeply flawed foreign policy wasn't so conducive to provoking hostility and hate, there wouldn't be so many people willing to kill themselves to kill us. Some might say that altering our foreign policy so as to piss off fewer potential terrorists is just appeasement. I say, so what? Isn't one of the main reasons for having a foreign policy keeping the nation reasonably safe?

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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #19
145. I don't see it as appeasement
Edited on Fri Aug-11-06 12:21 AM by OnionPatch
We need to start conducting our foreign policy with honor in all situations so that these groups have no *valid* reason to be angry at us. That's not appeasement, it's morality. You're right that there will still be a few with an axe to grind, but they won't be able to drum up near the support and sympathy. Not even close. And the world would be back on our side again. Fighting terrorism would then be a matter of law enforcement and security measures.
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Jeanette in FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
20. All you need is love
Everybody.

Allyou need is love

All you need is love, love

Love is all you need

Love is all you need

Love is all you need

She loves you, yeah yeah yeah

She loves you, yeah yeah yeah
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
21. Use honest public diplomacy
If an honest person replacing bush in the presidency, were to get on television to make an appeal, it
would be heard by the terrorist intimately. so, make them a deal they can't refuse. By appealing in
public, in a spirit of openness, declaring a freedom of information for all public records of past administrations,
and opening the lies to be inspected, i plan to open the debate in every human heart what it means to be
free, and to ask each person to join us all here on earth to give it a go wishing each other well.

Time to close a lot of miitary bases and collapse and empire, to be replaced by a series of referee-colour cards,
like those used by referees during soccer matches. If a country got a yellow card, we would open extensive
cooparation to that country as it would be borderline red-card. If a country reached red-card, all financial
transactions in and out of said coutnry would be blockaded until they cam to see reason.

But for non-state actors, we would open up listening channels to engage all peoples in real conversation,
as a diplomatic exercise, and to get the state department doing its job... And with this open converation,
convert the subversive militarist evils of today in to an open request for cooperation and honest dealing
in future, given respect and the realization that we both stand to benefit, me, the american asshole white
richworld hollow hearted urban cynical burnout, and you, the other human being... and we are open on all
channels.

The military budget needs be cut by 50% and with those savings, universal preventive healthcare provided to
all persons planetwide... as a leap of goodwill and investment of venture humanism.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. This means sanctions:
all financial transactions in and out of said coutnry would be blockaded until they cam to see reason.


Sanctions starve children, while the leaders often remain in opulence. Acceptable?
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
68. we need a stick
I agree with your concern, yet we need to achieve a mechanism of "no no, bad dog", or the dogs
are gonna chase the sheep. I'm sure a dilligent negotiator could find a position with every
nation where the bad-dog mechanism not be used. The purpose of a good system is not to use it,
but to "use" it, meta. War does not punish a dog, it makes it viscious... then the dog bites.

Love melts a dogs heart and it will be your friend for life. Then, we need to learn how to
love our neighbors, really, that they really love us, and then we will never have wars as we
will be standing amongst friends.

Madelline allbright was framed previously by bush1. Had i been in charge, saddam never would have
invaded kuwait, as we would have been on the ball and stopped that whole thing before it happened.

The problem here, is that people are not on the ball, they are derelict in their duty, but we
accept very low standards these days, too low, set by the corporate media, that our defenders
are only there to apologize for not defending.
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Jeanette in FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
52. Imagine that.
Oh, my, I remember when I was as idealistic.

I love your message, you must be young, my friend. At 51, I have seen too much of what my "country" has done in our name.

Perhaps, your generation will carry that message. Lord knows we tried. And only speaking for myself, I still believe.

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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #52
98. having to believe
I have to believe, you see. I am only 43, a mere tot. ;-) Fat in the wrong places, with wrinkles
and odd habits... but i'll be dead, man, when i don't feel that way, as then my life will be given
up, all the love i've every lived for and all the passion i feel for anyone who is not free getting
free, for all persons discovering their enlightenment and the brilliant cooperation of spirits that
our life is really about.

Oh, i feel so responsible for this disgrace, for being part of it, and even hercules could not
reverse the tide, not king canute hizzelf, against the rising tide of the ignorant mob, degenerating
our cohesion from love to balance-of-power and now to projeny/survival, ticking down 2 chakras in
1 lifetime, the assemblage of this earth has fallen indeed.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
24. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. You're suggesting death squads.
I believe that's the parlance of our times, anyway.
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Poppyseedman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
47. I was thinking more of total liquidation squads
I realize it is pretty radical what I suggested, but some people simply understand only one thing

A painful terrible death visited upon their life and their person

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fuzzypolitics Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. Works for me... n/t
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
58. oh right, continue the ridiculous so-called war on terror
--in other words, become terrorists ourselves.
this is so not the right solution.
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Poppyseedman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #58
74. No, terrorist use terror as a tool to instill fear into a population.
I'm talking about sending a message to a select few, as many as that may be, not an entire population, who simply are not going to respond to talks, negotiation or reason.

Make their decision so painful to continue in terrorism and those who wish to follow in their footsteps so afraid they will change
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
71. your post is a joke right?
"erase from the face of the earth" LOL
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Poppyseedman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #71
92. No, I'm dead serious
To believe certain people will refrain from terrorism simply by talking with them, singing with them, laughing with them, appeasement, asking nicely with a cherry on top, changing your behavior, bribery, sexual favors, etc, etc, etc, etc is very myopic

Sometimes fear is the only thing that people understand.
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #92
115. killers are killers. Their causes may differ and they may use different
rationale to justify their actions. Pulling the trigger is the easy way out - you are admitting defeat.

Why should terra-ists be afraid of death if they don't have a chance for a decent life? If you give someone a reason not to kill someone , not to waste someone else's life along with their own, well then you have done something useful.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #92
125. You are so wrong, poppyseedman
To a Nazi, the French Resistance were terrorists, and Jean Moulin was an Osama Bin Laden. The Third Reich followed your advice, capturing Moulin and brutally torturing him to death. The Nazis threatened to kill 10 Frenchmen for every 1 German killed by the Resistance, and they made good on their threats. They also tortured many others, but not to extract information -- that is not why States torture (including the U.S.). The intent was to terrorize an oppressed population into acquiescence, into submission. The Nazis intended to instill extreme fear in the occupied population in order to break their will to resist.

Well, we all know how well that worked for the Fuhrur and his Reich.

    Hatred ever kills, love never dies such is the vast difference between the two. What is obtained by love is retained for all time. What is obtained by hatred proves a burden in reality for it increases hatred.
    -- Mohandas K Gandhi
A couple of decades ago (I lift this from Noam Chomsky), "the former head of Israeli military intelligence, Yehoshaphat Harkabi, made a point that still holds true. 'To offer an honorable solution to the Palestinians respecting their right to self-determination: that is the solution of the problem of terrorism,' he said. 'When the swamp disappears, there will be no more mosquitoes.'"

As long as we hegemonically maintain a global system of disparity and inequality, of various degress of oppression for the majority of the world's citizens, a small number of desparate people will gravitate to sociopathic demagogues like Adolph Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, and George W Bush. We can swat at the resulting mosquitoes from now until the end of time, but as long as we leave the swamps of oppression in place we will be buzzed anew in every generation.

In Yehoshaphat's words is the answer to terrorism. Stop the madness, stop realpolitik attempts to maintain our systems of disparity by force and intrigue. Sure, troublesome sociopaths will still emerge, but they will have much trouble recruiting from peoples who feel they've received a fair shake in life. An isolated sociopath is easier to defend against than a movement they inspire, fueled by our own unjust actions. Don't invade Iraq. Don't prop up oppressive regimes like the House of Saud for our own economic advantage. Don't train Central American security forces on the art of the death squad at School of the Americas. Don't encourage policies that surrender the public commons to private greed. Don't, in short, engage in imperialism and oppression -- then, and only then, will we win the "War on Terror".
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
25. stop fighting an asymmetric war with the same 'jolly green giant' that...
fought & lost the vietnam war for starters
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
26. It's very easy. Stop oppressing people and the oppressed
will not become terrorists. If you take everything from a group of people, including any hope they have for the future, you will breed terrorists. It's been that way through history.

Read up on Irish history from their oppression by the British 800 years ago up to the last century and you will have a well document history of the making and eventually ending of Irish terrorism.
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
29. There has to be economic opportunity and security. Social
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 08:46 PM by bluerum
problems, health care, financial vitality, housing, MINIMUM WAGE*, energy policy, education - it all fits together.

When economies are clicking on all cylinders and people feel secure, really secure - not the republican big brother will take care of you type of secure. People, all people will have fewer reasons to bomb their neighbors.

In a word - economic opportunity. Ok, that's two words. Here are two more: minimum wage. Two more: triple it. Three more: sliding tax scale. The more you take from society the more you should put back.

on edit: sp. :dunce:
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
31. Kill everybody who isn't rich?
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
45. Osama Bin Ladin is a billionaire.
Wealth seems irrelevent to this discussion.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #48
61. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
86. osama is not a billionaire
that is propaganda.

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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #86
95. Fine. Then counter my assertion without smearing me, if you would.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. That doesn't make me a fucking freeper.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #95
100. I hope no one here is a fucking freeper
cheers to you. :toast:
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #100
109. lol. Ditto.
I've been a proud Democrat (and a proud American) for a long time. Fuck the freepers and their stupid little flag pins.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #109
116. well said.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. His family is....
Besides, if you are comfy rich, you are most likely not going to strap explosives around yourself.

It would be much harder to recruit the haves than the have nots for certain death.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #51
67. That sounds like an argument for economic globalisation.
It's what the neocons are saying.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #67
77. I'm a Socialist, So kill me.
:toast:
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #77
89. Well, I have a hard time differentiating between a socialist..
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 09:03 PM by cigsandcoffee
...global revolution and a capitalist global revolution. Either one replaces existing cultures and reshapes them in a different image that's favored by the expansionists.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #67
128. Actually, neo-liberals are the proponents...
...of globalization. The neo-con holds a much more conservative position, i.e. advance and enforce economic hegemony through the barrel of a gun.
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #51
105. You do know that most terrorists come from upper class families didn't you
Theres 3 things Islamic terrorists got going on. Their religious leaders tell them that by committing suicide it will give them instant acceptance into the after life. Their belief system that has been feed to them since birth means obedience to religious leaders. Then the third thing, sexual repression, males are limited to the amount of contact they have to females. Wealth means little to terrorists as they see themselves as working for the glory of Allah.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #105
112. Do you have a link to that...
Or maybe their recruitment roster?
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. It was on a PBS show about the ME.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #105
134. That is not true
Wait, yes, George W Bush was born with a silver spoon up his... well, you get my point. However, I'd sure like to see you support that assertion -- i.e., "most terrorists come from upper class families".

Well, first (mrcheerful) you equate "terrorists" with Muslims working for the glory of God. Don't forget our Christian glory workers like Timothy McVeigh. The McVeigh family fortune, wasn't that a string of HMO's designed to deny people needed healthcare for family profit? Wait, was that Cat Killer Frist? I often get my "upper class" families mixed up.

Then there's the Symbionese Liberation Army. Sure, they kidnapped Patty Hearst, but how about the rest of this "terrorist" organization? Was it Yolanda and Teko Harris that founded a national burger chain? Bo Little's family created the great steel monopolies at the start of the industrial age? Which SLA founding member careened around our nation's posh country clubs before going urban guerrilla?

While I don't disagree with you that a craven desire for money is not what motivates someone to sacrifice all for their beliefs (albeit in many cases mis-guided, delusional beliefs). It is something else. Often a hunger for justice, sometimes just a desire for control. Sometimes just for a feeling of being part of something bigger than themselves. But it would be news to me if "most terrorists come from upper class families", and I would like to see your evidence for that (and I hope it's more than the various MSM propoganda we get about OBL's merry clan).
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #134
158. It was on one of the PBS programs abut the middle east.
Remember what sets the Muslim jihads apart from other terrorists is their education. Education is not something most of the lower class has an opportunity of receiving in the middle east. Remember the key word is most of the lower class, not all. We americans take it for granted that the middle east is back wards and full of uneducated people. It wasn't always that way, Baghdad once had universities that were on par with those in the states and Europe. Education takes money. Remember the terrorists that pulled off the 9/11 had above normal educations, they took flight lessons on flying commercial aircraft. America needs to wake up to the fact that we are dealing with people that are just as educated as we are and they know how to apply that education to wards terror attacks.
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
32. You CANT stop terrorism.
You can only curb and control it to a certain extent. The whole point of terrorism is to attack what can not be protected. And there are always a handful of lunitics in the world. Wither its aircraft or just shooting up the office terrorsim is not something you stop.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
33. investigate, arrest, prosecute, convict, strict sentencing
possibly even a death penalty to cut down on a motive for terrorists kidnapping others to exchange for their people who have already been captured

as far as airport, random testing of bags/liquids fine, denial of hydration and lotions to pax not fine and will end in somebody dying of DVT or another illness related to lack of hydration which will get the airline sued for plenty

we best fight terror by hunting down terrorists, not by ruining somebody's eye sight by seizing a needed eye fluid or killing some older person whose requests for water went unserved because of unexpected turbulence
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
44. We did that in 1993.
They sent more.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #44
69. so your answer is to give up and say "oh woe"
i think several years of their little plans being disrupted was worth it to the people who didn't get blown up at LAX and worth it to the people who didn't get blown up in bojinka

it's too bad that * doesn't make investigations a priority but apparently neither do any number of DUers

if we can't agree that crime and conspiracy should be investigated, then we're fecking hopeless
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #69
80. By all means, investigate, try and convict.
I just don't think that will begin to address the cause of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism. The cause is Islamic fundamentalism itself, and I don't know how to moderate (or de-fang) the exttreme practitioners of that religion. But do that, and you've solved the rpoblem.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
36. What is terrorism? Who are the terrorists?
Is an Iraqi man who's family was killed by our soldiers at some Baghdad checkpoint and now wishes to seek revenge for his wife and childrens deaths a terrorist?

I need some clarification on things like that before I can answer your question.

Don
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
55. Well, I think that may qualify
He is seeking out justice against a person who did not themselves committ the act.

Punishing by proxy as it were.

Let's say my son was killed by Iraqi goverment and I go kill some iraqi's who had nothing to do with it. I would call that a terrorist act.

If I am in a country that is oppressed by another country and I start killing it's people (not soldiers) I think that would be terrorism. If I targeted the military and some civilians near there were killed, and such was not my intention, I don't think that is terrorism though.

It's all about intent and victim. If you intend to kill innocent people to get back at your loss, that to me is wrong and would be classified as terrorism.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #55
99. What about the man who was photographed being forced to give oral sex...
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 09:08 PM by NNN0LHI
...to another man at Abu Ghraib Prison? Or the Iraqi boy who was anally raped there? He a terrorist too if he wants revenge for that? Or the ones who had chemical lights jammed up their anus at Abu Ghraib? More terrorists for wanting revenge for that stuff?

I just want to be sure here.

Don

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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #99
153. If you were raped, who would you kill?
Some folks on a bus?

If my wife went to Lebanon and was raped would it be just for me to bomb a mall full of people there for revenge?

I just want to be sure here as well - If I am wronged killing anyone I can is justified?
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Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #55
129. So by that standard
we're terrorists. We attacked Afghanistan and Iraq to get back at the Saudis, Egyptian, Kuwaiti, et al, members of al-Qaeda, who were financed by Saudi Arabia and Pakistan (our allies). Terrorism is a method by which people with no political representation attempt (rightly or wrongly) to get attention and recourse. You can't destroy "terrorism" any more than they can destroy "freedom".
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #129
135. By the standard the poster uses my father is a terrorist
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 11:21 PM by NNN0LHI
He served in the navy on a ship in an American battle group in the Pacific during WW 2 after the USA was attacked by Japan at Pearl Harbor.

He assisted as much as one person could in helping to kill 100's of thousands of completely innocent Japanese people who lived in Tokyo which was firebombed to the ground along with many other cities. And that is not even counting the two cities full of human beings we completely flattened with the atom bombs.

Some of the babies who were certainly killed were only minutes out of their mothers womb and were as innocent as one can be. Yet we still burned them up with abandon because the leaders of Japan attacked our country.

But we don't call that terrorism for some reason.

Don
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Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #135
136. War is terror - at least for those caught in it. Your father was doing
what he thought was right, though. He didn't intend to kill innocents, to be sure. I don't believe you can end terrorism with bombs - you can only create more. I think we also need to refuse to be "terrorized", and that would go a long way toward stopping this insanity.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #55
140. "Punishing by proxy as it were"
You mean, like bombing Lebanonese citizens for the purported crimes of Hezbollah? Or invading Iraq because our leader told us they were led by Saddam Bin Laden? So Israel and the United States are "terrorists"?

You would conclude, then, that the French Resistance were terrorists because, when they set off a bomb in a resturant frequented by Nazi soldiers, innocent citizens were also killed. Would you then, like poopyseedman, be forced to agree that the French Resistance should've been wiped off the face of the earth? Or, referring back to my first paragraph, the United States and Israel should be so vanquished?

The U.S. and Israel punishes by proxy all the time. In fact, an interesting turn of events under Bush is we've dropped some of the pretense of proxy when we round up everday citizens and torture them in places like Abu Graib. Beforehand, we'd train proxy torturers at Ft. Benning (SOA). Our CIA and military would follow their students back to their home countries to "encourage" the local security forces in their brutal suppression of their people, all for trans-national corporate profit, of course (how dare they clamor for schools and hospitals when there's trans-national corporate money to be made!).

I think the term "terrorist" has been drained of all real meaning today. Instead, it has become a tool of the propagandist working for the State in its effort to repress any discussion of cause and justice. Same with the word "conspiracy theorist" -- just empty words, now, sand in the eyes of the general public while our elites continue with their self-serving agenda.

This does not mean the world isn't a dangerous place. It is. And there are many evil men out there who are not American. And we need to defend ourselves against them. But not in this way, not by exercise of the Bush Doctrine -- that just perpetuates and multiplies the problem.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #140
149. The sooner we all learn the truth of your words the better off we will be
Real good post.

Don
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #149
155. as noted below, see my other post on this:
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #140
154. See my other post on this:
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #154
161. Good post, straight
You know, it won't be long now until we reach the point where George W Bush will have killed more innocent Americans than Osama Bin Laden killed on 9-11 (assuming for the moment that OBL had anything to do with it -- probable as it is, GWB has presented scant evidence to the U.S. public).

In Bush's case he kills every American soldier who, out of love of country or dire economic need, volunteered for our armed services assuming he or she would only be sent in harms way to protect our Constitution, our freedom, and our lives, only to find themselves in Iraq based on craven lies.

People rarely win wars, governments rarely lose them. People get killed. Governments molt and regroup, hydra-headed. They first use flags to shrink-wrap peoples' minds and suffocate real thought, and then as ceremonial shrouds to cloak the mangled corpses of the willing dead.
-- Arundhati Roy

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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #55
157. Then the Israelis are guilty of terrorism by your definition...right???
Because they are targeting civilians in southern Lebanon.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
57. revenge seekers are pre meditated murderers for sure
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 08:50 PM by pitohui
tit for tat and an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind

i don't really care abt your motive, if you are blowing up innocent people on an airplane, you don't belong on my planet

if you specifically hunt down and kill the specific soldiers who killed your wife/kids, it is POSSIBLE that is a crime of passion or manslaughter, not terror, and you should be sentenced accordingly -- any judge or jury would be understanding of the difference -- but you still need to pay a price -- either we are a society of laws or we are not

the people who flew into the wtc, the people who blew up the madrid or london trains, the people who planned to blow up the jets today -- no one is saying they are victimized iraqis

you are the only one making that claim or that comparison

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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
42. A few hundred 50-megatonne bombs.
Jacketed with cobalt-thorium G. Detonated over the earth's major population centres. Like Stalin said: 'no man, no problem.' That or some other form of human extinction is the only way we'll ever end terrorism (ie, use of violence or coercive threat of same to achieve political goals).
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wurzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
43. If I was "God". I would
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 08:49 PM by wurzel
Tell the Israelis they must leave the West bank completely. Get rid of the "settlers". "You get to keep what you have so don't whine. It's a bargain!" Then I'd tell the Palestinians that I know it isn't just, but you will get the West Bank and Gaza in toto. That's the best you can get." Then I'd get the Arabs and the West, bash their collective heads, and tell them, "You must contribute some of those obscene oil profits and give it to the Palestians to create an economy for them." But I'm not God. Thank God!
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
63. Why do you dismiss the most common sense, wisest, best answers?
Get rid of Bush.

Stop terrorizing everybody.

And, yeah, improve our health, change our consumer habits, detach from the oil and war profiteers, and other sensible polices, to build real strength at home, and a peaceful and just economy in a peaceful and just world.

You just knock all this over--and say, NOW what are you going to do with the wackos?

Well, maybe we'll have FEWER wackos, if 1, 2 and 3 are accomplished.

What do you want, a police manual?

Terrorist cells are not now--and have never been--a big problem. Good police work is the answer, of course. War isn't. And the more peace and justice you have, the fewer terrorist cells you'll have to deal with.

If people have enough to eat, and dignity and self-determination, and if they feel they have a chance at the redressing of any grievances, they usually are not motivated to commit "terrorist" acts. If they are shoved around, and stomped on, and their land stolen, and their democracies destroyed (Iran!), and fatcat sheiks who lord it over them and steal all their wealth, are seen holding hands with US president, and they see no hope anywhere, a lot more of them might just become fanatical and suicidal than would normally be the case among any given peoples.

Further, I would say that our secret government--the one that CREATED Al Qaeda and FUNDED Osama bin Laden--is way, way out of control. God knows what shit they're stirring up now, with more of these Bushite criminals in action, and the Bush Cartel in charge.

Be just with other people. Be peaceful in your intent. Stop lying. Stop stealing from others in the name of "freedom." Stop sicking global corporate predators upon the world in the name of "democracy." And you will likely see a lot less "terrorism" and a lot more cooperation, prosperity, fairness, honesty, friendliness and good government all around.

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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #63
78. well let me explain it to you this way
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 08:59 PM by pitohui
you said -- Be just with other people. Be peaceful in your intent. Stop lying. Stop stealing from others in the name of "freedom." Stop sicking global corporate predators upon the world in the name of "democracy." And you will likely see a lot less "terrorism" and a lot more cooperation, prosperity, fairness, honesty, friendliness and good government all around.


i say --
if you are not being just w. other people, if you are being warlike in your intent, if you are lying, if you are stealing, if you are siccing corporate predators upon the world...KNOCK IT OFF!

but as for me i am already just w. other people, i am already peaceful in my intent, i don't lie and steal, and i have no power even to sic a pit bull on somebody much less a global corporate predator...and ya know what? i have done all this, and there are still bad guys out there! imagine that

after a certain point, unless you are a total ostrich, you have to accept that some fraction of people are pure evil and we have no alternative but to do good police/prosecutorial work to put a stop to their little games

it's easy to say "there will always be terror as long as there are poor people," the poor are a cheap and easy target for the poor will always be with us, so they provide a ready-made excuse

even tho we have no proof that any poor person ever has planned, executed, and funded a terror plot w.out help from the rich and/or middle class
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
64. End poverty and ignorance.
There is no reason for either today.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:52 PM
Original message
Stop Meddling in other Countries
And get rid of corporate influence in Washington DC. That's how....
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
66. Ask the IRA
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
70. Stop calling them terrorists and call them what they are - criminals.
Treat it as crime, not as a "war". War on Drugs has escalated the problem 100X (not to mention that the real big money in drugs in under government control). Same with the War on Terror.

But there are 2 another key components to this GWOT that need to be addressed in the equation: oil and religion. Get us off an oil based energy strategy and the problem of terrorism would go away. Declaring war/occupation on the most secular and modern society in the ME has marginalized moderation and rewarded religious fundementalism. We have radicaized the ME states.

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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
85. You can't defeat a tactic but...
... regarding the extreme RW bastardization of Islam, the first step would be to admit to and understand the West's own involvement in creating and encouraging this form of religious extremism.

Greg Palast makes some very interesting points about the fall of Mossadegh in Iran (how declassified documents demonstrate the CIA's role in convincing conservative Islamic groups that democracy is "unislamic" when there are Islamic concepts that encourage democracy) and Big Oil's role in shaping the Middle East (listen to Palast explain the creation of the Iraqi state).

Watch Palast here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-36410438307779...

Additionally, I highly recommend a series of five articles by Brian Whitaker, Middle East Editor of the Guardian, on "Democracy & the Middle East." In each of his articles, he tackles a topic that needs to be solved for democracy to work. The Colonialist legacy, the problem of sitting on a valuable resource, Israel/Palestine, and the bastardization of Islam.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,...
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ptolle Donating Member (423 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #85
142. one more recommendation
As long as we're recommending background reading I have to throw in Devil's Game: How the US Helped Unleash Fundamentalist Islam by Robert Dreyfuss. Excellent piece of scholarship and good writing. It will clear up a lot of misconceptions, but caveat it will PYO at the same time. Definitely worth the time.
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #85
159. And another...
As in our desperate attacks on anything "left" our government is still using the flawed policy of covertly fusing religion with state, disregarding the fact that there exists no singular "World of Islam".

The Ghosts of the Cold War
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HH11Aa01.html


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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
87. MAKE ECONOMIC OPPRESSION, ANYWHERE, A FELONY!!
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 09:04 PM by Just Me
A felony with a 40 year sentence attached, minimum. That's all.

OH,...and when the corporacrats CAN'T economically oppress a country, including its own, because their is a populist leader that just says, "NO", make it LAW that whenever the U.S. military and all U.S. "security" corporations are used to exact that oppression, A LIFE SENTENCE FELONY if they go after that leader or its supporters.

Yes! Make those f*ckers FELONS.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
91. Here's my plan.
1) A two state solution in Israel. A thriving Palestinian state next to a thriving Israel.
2) Invest in alternative fuel.
3) Let nations keep their own resources.
4) Fix our own country and butt out. No more wars of liberation.
5) Stop trying to Westernize and Christianize them.

There have been Islamic fundamentalists for hundreds of years. They aren't imperalists and the majority of people in any nation just want to live their own lives in peace. Radicalism would be discouraged.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #91
102. Excellent plan
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
101. Terrorism is murder
And I don't see murder, whether it's for love, money, or ideology, going away any time soon.

However, you can stop "terrorism" as such by stopping the terror.

1. Remind Americans that we all die, and a few of us, sadly, will die sooner than we thought, whether from terrorism or too many Big Macs
2. Remind Americans that we had thousands of Soviet ICBMs pointed at us for 4 decades and we didn't resort to this kind of snivelling
3. Remind Americans that we need more police back on the street, which means we all have to dig a little deeper and pay some damn taxes (seriously, people, just pay the damn taxes. Is it *that* hard?)
4. Finally, remind Americans to reach down, check that they still have testicles and/or ovaries, and grow the $*%& up instead of crying to daddy every time somebody threatens us
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
103. Thanks to all for replies so far
Hard to keep up with em all!

The theme I see, a good one, is let's get countries to work together for common goals and the good of each other, over the good for just one. Do what is best for yourself, AND each other (ala a beautiful mind).

Peace is harder to achieve than war it seems, a sad thing indeed.
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #103
111. Please look into the Palast vid and Whitaker articles I posted...
... I know they might be too time consuming but I really believe they're worth the time. Don't worry, you don't have to write me a report/essay back. No homework. :) ... just a recommendation to look into them.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
117. They don't hate our freedoms, they just hate. We need to stop hatred.
That is how we will stop terrorism.

We will not build a continually higher damn, we will attempt to remove the water from behind the damn.

Unfortunately, no one will trust us when we go around the world and try to preach about real democracy and real freedom. (Not the false label applied to the tyranny that was the invasion of Iraq.)
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #117
133. who are 'they'??? many of 'them' are 'us' if
you ask me-

And who says 'they' hate us? other than this administration??? Its easy to say what others think- its harder to know what is true, and trustworthy.

Hatred is not the opposite of love, it is a part of being 'connected'- the opposite of love, the thing that will really destroy us all- is apathy- it is the ability to hear that Darfur is happening, to see what our fellow human beings are living through, and turn the page, or turn the channel, and not be deeply disturbed- disturbed enough to DO something about it-

We see so much of the suffering that exists in this world thanks to technology- yet we feel unable to change things, and numb our minds with unimportant things- while people suffer and die all over this world, and we piss and moan about the price of gas, the infringement on our 'rights' the newest scandal in this 'hellywood' society..... politics, policies, possessions, prestiege.... all the while people are dying for want of the very basics....


sorry to dump on you- we care so much about 'being safe' but neglect those who die by the thousands every day.... not in a blaze of glory on a plane, not in some big media event but slowly, somtimes silently slipping almost unnoticed out of the circle of life on this sad weary earth.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
121. You can't get rid of terrorism.
You can protect your citizens. You can give terrorists no reason to attack. Beyond that, precious little except to intercept and stop them through law enforcement and covert methods. You certainly can't get rid of it by doing what they accuse you of doing such as attacking and taking over countries or exploiting countries for economic gain.
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mystique Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. ^^^
Exactly. It's like we ask how can we stop criminals ??? We can't...
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
123. There are some loons for which no
remedy apart from hoping to catch them before they kill people works. Sporadic "terrorism"--McVeigh wasn't terrorism, IMHO--that amounts to revenge attacks.

Then there's terrorism in the sense of some terrorist group. They have an ideology and a purpose. Weathermen, Bader-Meinhoff, IRA (real or otherwise), AQ, whatever: they usually want power, or decide that others' deaths is worth their goal. They're insane, in some sense, but imminently rational: The group matters, the goal matters, the ideology matters, not individuals. Sacrifice the individuals for the sake of the greater good. This is fine rhetoric in wartime, where most of the individuals have some say over their deaths, and believe the cause just enough. But sacrificing bystanders ... ay,there's the rub. Complicating matters is that the ideologies are diverse; what applies to one doesn't apply to the other. Terrorism is a tactic, not a goal.

Such movements need not be organized into a group. Once the ideology and purpose are widespread enough, individuals can act. It looks like a conspiracy; but there's no need for one. The actions, the terrorism, is emanent. It lives in the message, as one of the few possible courses of action. All that's required is that the conditions apply, and action be required. Some people will choose that particular course.

One can fight them by rounding up their members--but then what? If they haven't killed, they'll be free in short order. If they have killed, they've killed innocents--not by their lights, but who cares? One can fight them by limiting resources, confiscating their funds or restricting access. These all deal with tactics. To defeat Germany in WWII, to defeat the Islamic invaders in France and Vienna, to defeat the Horde in Central Europe stopping the flow of bullets, swords, and arrows wasn't sufficient. It's easy enough to regroup, to find new supplies, and new sub-tactics.

To defeat them, you must defeat the ideology; if that's not possible, you eliminate the preachers. The ideologues. You discredit them. Humiliate them. Shame them so they become pariahs. Show that their ideas are groundless, illogical, contradict whatever the appropriate laws are--but for that you have to convince others that your set of laws are better in some sense.

That is simply not possible. Fellow travellers shame those defending themselves against an aggressive faith because they're fools and either can't break free of a fallacy, or because they're afraid. Either way, it's as much an error to respect their arguments. Fallacious arguments, however heartfelt, are simply foolishness; they must be addressed in culturally relevant terms, but to respect them is idiocy. To respect them lest they take offense and hurl some epithet is to say we must surely fundamentalists in their kooky pronouncements. Either way, they hurl and epithet and take offense. Both are just as wrong.
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
127. Stop funding right-wing terrorist nations and allowing them free rein
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 10:44 PM by LaPera
to do as they please---Which allows the BushCo thieves excuses to methodically invade, wage war and control the regions oil flow.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
130. the same way we stop death-
recognizing the fact that it will always exist- minimizing aggrivating factors- (like not being an arrogant, offensive, self-righteous, opinionated, and 'partisan' world monster power)-

And learning to live life as if every day was 'the last day' and as if every person on earth was 'you'.

People want to hurt others because they are in NEED- It may not seem like it, but that is the motivation behind every unkind and terrible action. When we live life as if 'we' were 'them' then there will be far less people who need to seek revenge, power, the essentials of life, a sense of being valued, of being accepted, of being treated as equal, of having an equal portion of hope.


religious 'wackjobs', those seeking revenge, and those with an agenda which involves having power 'over' others are people who have been used, made afraid, dis-empowered, and mis-treated- The best way to fight this, is to live life as equal runners in this human race.


imho-
peace
blu
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
131. We get our troops out of their countries, stop bombing their people,
stop stealing their land and resources and give back the stuff we've already stolen.

There is no other way.
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
132. It doesn't stop, but it does grow or shrink in intensity
pretty much in direct proportion to inequity, powerlessness and Empire building.

The more you educate, feed, and empower people the less they are willing to blow themselves and others up for obscure ends.

So nothing stops it...and given how deep a hole we've dug not much is going to reduce it in the near term future.

But we can begin to reverse the damage...just like the national debt. It isn't going away tomorrow...but we can examine our spending and income and begin to work our way out.

Can anyone think of a massive military action in history that has eliminated terrorism? We've had people calling other people terrorists for thousands of years...so which Empire successfully ended it?

Can anyone think of a culture that eliminated terrorism by stripping its own people of their basic rights or dignity?

Maybe I just suck at history and can't point out the obvious. On the other hand...
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
137. I would make it my goal to find Osama Bin Laden and I mean
tomorrow, when I wake up and the Sun shines. I want to see two super agents standing at the end of my bed with OBL in shackles. We'd eat breakfast and have a little talk. That's where I'd start.
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
138. Diplomacy.
Oh, and destroying PNAC.

Just my two-part solution. Kind of simple.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
139. We can't stop it but we can lessen the existence of it by
not invading countries to "free" them when they actually don't want anything to do with us.
- By realizing that democracy is indeed a great thing but not everyone wants it.
- By not trying to make every other country another U.S.
- By realizing that US citizens make up only 4.6% of the world's population and therefore maybe we should stop a minute and find out what's going on with the other 95.4%.
- By using common sense and the taxpayers' money to sew up the many loose holes in our "national security" instead of settling daddy's scores or helping our buds get richer
- By deciding we want to work with, not dominate or control, the other countries in the world.
- By learning about other ways of life, other cultures and other belief systems, including learning who our enemy is and why they are our enemy
- By figuring out that we should respect and allow the differences between peoples, not try to eradicate or hate them.
- By actually considering who we train and support militarily today because tomorrow they will use that knowledge against us
- By letting other countries choose how they want to live and leave them alone to let them live it.
- By putting our actions behind our words and when we say we will support a group or country in overthrowing a brutal dictator, actually sticking around to do it and not allow mass slaughters to take place instead.
- By using our position of power in this world to help others and make their lives better (in this country and elsewhere) instead of coercing them and taking advantage of them.

Hardly an all inclusive list, but it's a good start...
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
146. 1. Creat a viable Palestinian state.
2. Pull ALL US troops out of the middle east.
3. Quit supporting despots like Mubarak, Musharrif, the Oil Sheiks of the Persian Gulf, and the king of Saudi Arabia.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
147. All religious extremism is problematic
Edited on Fri Aug-11-06 12:33 AM by fujiyama
but Islamic fundamentalism and the terrorism that resides from it is proving to be a global crisis on a scale much greater than the others. On that front, there is only so much we can do to calm paranoia and anger in the Muslim world. Though it wouldn't hurt to stop invading countries in the middle east and fight wars only when absolutely necessary...and a more sensible policy regarding Israel would be much needed.

Defeating poverty is vital and it's also important to find a way to further secular education and encourage rational thought.

Some other ways to decrease global violence is cut military aid to several countries around the world (including Israel and Pakistan among others), strengthen global coalitions to cut the spread of small arms and other weapons, and of course restrict the power of corporations and resist the idea that US foreign policy should further corporate interests.


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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
148. Stop looking at the middle east through the eyes of Israel. Broker
a real peace for the middle east.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
150. Yeah, a lot of those people who want to kill other people are
American and Israeli.

Oh, please. The way around terrorism is to quit pretending one culture is superior to another, one race superior to another.

When we get over ourselves, we might learn to deal with people.

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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #150
156. That is fine and dandy
But how do we convince others of the same?

I keep hearing talk we are making terrorists - but only a small percentage of people in the areas brought up become such. To me those people are defective - and to think we are making folks in the ME terrorists tells me that we think most folks there are not capable of sorting out right from wrong.

Tim McVeigh does not fit that mould. Others do not either. There are some fanatics in this world who hate others, seek approval from their leaders and peers, and will do stupid crap to get such (ala suicide via planes/bombs).

We do need to prevent future attacks by whackos - first though we need to recognize that there are some out there (locally and foreign). How do we prevent attacks (police wise, new laws, etc and so on) and how do we engage people of such a nature and get them to change their views?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
151. A genuinely sovereign and genuinely independent state of Palestine

with East Jerusalem as its capital and based on the internationally recognized border between Israel and the occupied territories; based on equality and international law

It will not stop all terrorism, of course. But it will significantly reduce the popular support for terrorism in the Arab and Muslim world.

" It was that an Arab community in a state of terror facing a ruthless Israeli army whose path to victory was paved not only by its exploits against the regular Arab armies, but also by the intimidation, and at times atrocities and massacres, it perpetuated against the civilian Arab community. A panic-stricken Arab community was uprooted under the impact of massacres that would be carved into the Arabs monument of grief and hatred" - - Former Israeli Foreign Minister, Shlomo Ben-Ami

From Scars of War, Wounds of Peace: The Israeli-Arab Tragedy, page 42
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
152. The world will never be completely free of terrorism
To believe that the world could ever be completely free of terrorism is to approach the problem the wrong way. There will always be some people who use terrorism as a tool for various reasons: 1) political or religious extremists (Tim McVeigh, or fundamentalists), 2) mentally disturbed individuals (the unibomber), and 3) agent provocateurs working covertly on behalf of a government.


Dismantling our Bill of Rights to protect us from someone like McVeigh or the unibomber would likely not have stopped them from their actions. Bombing and killing tens of thousands of innocent citizens to prevent religious fundamentalism in a secular nation has not worked, in fact it has had the opposite effect of radicalizing moderate people. Removing civil liberties from innocents and military actions against innocents only punishes those who are not the problem.

The list of simple and effective security measures that the US has failed to take post 911 is mind numbing. Airline & port cargo is still not screened, our nuclear & chemical plants still have not been made to increase their security, national security assets are owned by foreign governments, and the list goes on. These security measures should be addressed, and law enforcement should track and apprehend those who are found to be terrorists within the limits of the Constitution and international law.

If you are looking for guarentees that there will never be another terrorists attack, then you're looking for utopia. Now I don't have a problem with people seeking a perfect world, but when it comes at the destruction of our Constitution, Bill of Rights, international law, and our values, that's where I get off the bus.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 04:43 AM
Response to Original message
160. You don't. You reduce it.
With six billion of us, any random alienated whackjob can go off at any time. That crazy Korean took out 130+ people in a Seoul subway a few years back just by lighting off about a quart of gasoline in a milk carton. No organizational connections--just nutz.
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