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If liquids are a danger in the air, why aren't they on a subway or train?

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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:39 PM
Original message
If liquids are a danger in the air, why aren't they on a subway or train?
Or in an elevator or automobile? What is the fascination with airplanes? How is this more an effective terror tool in the air with around 300 people, than it is in the aforementioned places, with many more people in harms way? Today's "terror threat" only underscores what I already knew. We are no safer today under this republican leadership than we were pre-9/11, or pre-2000, for that matter.

:rant:
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Just walk into a supermarket...
don't even have to buy them...Just mix 'em and walk out... Please make me safe Dubya....(in a whiny, begging Republican voice)
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. egg-zackly
and did this whiz bang hair gel chemistry stuff just start working this week? If I were an evil hair gel exploding terrist I'd just pitch a load of Dippity-Do out the window coming into Grand Central. Or the Lincoln tunnel. Hell, go for broke, throw some tooth whitening gel out with it.

I think every Proctor & Gamble employee should now be on the no-fly no-drive no-greyhoundbus no-train no-car no-pogo stick list.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Mr. Clean, Marge and all those laundryroom ladies pouring Whisk
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 06:51 PM by sfexpat2000
all over the place. And frankly, Mr. Clean has set my bells off from Day 1




:rofl:
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. LOL!
I think Mr. Clean shops in my mall. But I see the attraction. ;-)

:rofl:
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prodigal_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. Bigger symbols
Planes have always been a target for terrorism because they are big and dramatic, they are usually owned by countries, they are full of wealthy (by global standards) civilians and there is no way out of that metal tube once it is in the air, which adds to the general atmoshphere of fear. Plus, getting around the security gives a certain cache to anyone that can manage it.

All of the fear fear fear crap means nothing to those of us that live in densely populated areas. That's why we don't buy the paternalistic Homeland Security nonsense and tend to vote for liberals--we have witnessed that crumbling infrastructure and poverty pose a much greater physical risk to us on a daily basis than some vague notion of terrorism.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. "there is no way out of that metal tube once it is in the air"
I guess you've never been trapped in the subway "waiting for signals ahead" while going through the middle of the WTC. :-) I have. Nearly every day when I am on may to work in a high rise that is One World Financial Center. I understand what you are saying though, but I just hope they don't start placing these same restrictions on our public transportation. It's too darn hot down there waiting for a subway as it is. Without some form of liquid, you would be a candidate for dehydration. I'm just sayin...

To think of all that billions of dollars being misappropriated in Iraq fighting "al Qaeda" and the insurgency. God save us from ourselves.
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. and now the WHOLE WORLD knows how to make a cheap bomb
Fuck all the nukes, we are armed and dangerous.
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lindisfarne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. We've known this for decades. More than a century, actually.
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 07:13 PM by lindisfarne
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prodigal_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. Self-delete
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 06:51 PM by prodigal_green
duplicate post
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. TATP was used in the London bombings
the explosive is actually a crystal, but in this case it would be transported suspended in a liquid/gel. Supposedly it would ignite just as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Which makes this whole thing smell like political grandstanding.
It's great that they stopped this, don't get me wrong, it's just all so...fishy. :shrug:
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. why fishy?
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 07:32 PM by Snivi Yllom
-you can make it yourself

-it's untraceable

-it's undetecable to most airport detectors

-dogs can't smell it

seems like a good choice if you want to sneak it on
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. I guess that M15 or the CIA or whatever hadn't thought of this before.
And the new term for the enemy: Islamic fascist. It has a nice ring to it, don't you think? As if we pissing off 1/5 of the population isn't ringing the bell for more terroism. I guess fishy may have been the wrong word. It's all so damned conveniently timed for the runup to the election that I can help but wonder. After all, they've known about this for months.
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xkenx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
8. And the corollary to that is
that these characters arrested in England were not from Iraq, that infamous terror headquarters :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

Dems. response to the Repukes' claims about protecting us from terrorists should be "Just imagine the resources wasted in Iraq being applied to port, power plant, nuclear plant, chemical plant, hospital, subway, and train security and to hunting down the real terrorists."
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. They weren't from Iran or Palestine or Lebanon either.
They were associated with a state we call an ally now.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Wellthen, let's just bomb great Britain back to the stone age.
:nuke: They are harboring terraists :nuke:
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Jeroen Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. Well, a train doesn't fall 30,000 ft when you punch a hole in it.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. And The 'Punch A Hole' Is The Point
A small explosion, as these would apparently cause, on a train or bus kills a few people, injures a few more.

On an airplane, blow a hole in the skin, rapid decompression and loss of control have the potential to kill all the passengers.

This does tell us a lot about the nature of the threat. Essentially amateurs, not the 'SPECTRE' like threat to the survival of the 'homeland' the administration would have us believe.

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Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
33. Don't forget about the loss of lives when the big tube falls down.
n/t
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. That is true.
It just blows them to pieces inside the narrow tube in which they are encased. I don't see the difference really. It's still a terror threat. :shrug:
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
15. It is fear X 2
Most people have a certain amount of fear of flying anyway, so anything to do with planes is double scary. Works for terrorists and fear-mongering governments.
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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. Working people ride the subway and the bus.
No blonde haired blue eyed rich white girls to mourn, alas.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
21. There are all sorts of incredibly dangerous chemical binaries.
Poisons and explosives.

Google "incompatible materials"
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Will you write me in Gitmo when they come for me?
:-) Just kidding. I'll give that a google. Thanks.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
22. Less safe.
The amount of hatred in the world has increased significantly in the past 6 years. This administration is partly responsible for that. They have made US citizens more of a target of hatred than at any previous time in our nation's history. You can tell a tree by its fruit.

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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. "You can tell a tree by its fruit."
They are beautiful!!!! Good work. Thanks, I needed that. :hug:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I have some
nice colors coming out this week. Red, pink, purple, peach, yellow, and green. None of them argue with each other based on color, ethnic background, or religious or political beliefs.

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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. It's such a disciplined art form, gardening.
Some famous artist, I can't recall who, said "gardening is like life - ever-changing." I always thought was wonderfully apt.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. In the past week
I've spent a considerable amount of time in the woods and on some trails my sons made for me through the fields. I've been spending time on a project that involves reading through some old copies of National Geographic. I'm reminded that friend Harvey Arden, a now retired senior writer for N.G. has a new book coming out soon. There is a discussion he has with a Haudenosaunee elder, who tells him about the significance of every individual flower. Participating in the universal garden is art indeed.

The below picture is a very old section of a Revolutionary War era turnpike that helped bring people from east of the Hudson to west of the Ft Stanwix Treaty line. The people who traveled it were looking to build a nation, based upon the Constitution. I walk on it and think about how this country needs to get back on that road.

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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Such a wonderful story. To walk on that land.
When we were in the Shawnee National Forest in So. Illinois a few years ago, I felt the same way. That there is something that we have lost. We are a nation of needs, not wants. It's part of the "me" mentality that has gotten us where we are. Thankfully, there are still vestiges of hope within many of us. There's still a chance. :-)
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
23. Who said they aren't?
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 07:49 PM by AZBlue
But as a target, airplanes are more attractive because of several reasons:

- There's no alternative. If you're scared to go on the subway to go to work, you can walk or drive or carpool or take the bus or bike. You can't choose one of those alternatives if you, say, are traveling from Miami to Portland. So the personal fear is greater and the economy is crippled to a greater extent if plane travel is down.
- You've got more time to carry out your plan on a plane.
- The casualty count is usually higher.
- It's a better "photo op" to have a plane blow up than a train derail.
- At least in the US, few cities have decent mass transit. Everyone has an airport near them.
- The airline industry is so tied into our culture and economy. In the US, our whole economy is hurt when the airlines are struggling. It has repercussions far beyond the travel industry. Even psychologically, air travel permeates more than trains. (Did you know that if there's a plane crash in the US, all airline advertising is pulled for at least 24 hours because it's such a huge blow to us mentally?)
- (and I'm just hypothesizing on this one): planes are associated more with capitalism, upper/middle classes and waste. Trains are seen as the working-man's form of transportation. From that line of thought, it's more anti-Western (ie, anti-American) to blow up a plane?

And, no, we are no safer now than we ever were. Perhaps in even more danger actually.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Good points. All of them.
Thanks AZ!
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Actually Dateline had an interesting reason too
(and not one I had thought of because it's kind of technical)

It takes a much smaller amount of explosive to do a lot of damage on a plane because of the pressurization - a small bomb can rip a huge hole on both sides of the plane and cause the body of the plane to expand and swell. Yikes!
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. I am now not looking forward to that trip abroad next year.
But maybe by then things will have relaxed bit.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Yeah, I know what you mean - but...
...I do think the phrase "if you let them stop you, they've already won" is valid. Plus, one good thing to come of the newest plot is that people will be vigilent again, like they were after 9/11. I think that after 9/11 and especially with these "reminders" it could never go down again like that - we didn't know that day what we know today and I for one will stand up and point out anything odd that I see. I think everyone will.
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
31. I've always wondered why the terrorists
don't attack a bunch of malls, can you imagine the terror that would spread in the USA. :scared: It would really hurt the economy and have people constantly in a lather. :scared: :scared: :scared:
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