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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:43 PM
Original message
Concentrated peroxide = rocket fuel...Gatorade bottle = container.
1. Concentrated peroxide is ROCKET FUEL. Incredibly dangerous. The shit at the store is 3% solution. The concentrated stuff launches missiles and rockets.

2. The Gatorade bottle was the CONTAINER.

CONCENTRATED PEROXIDE (i.e. ROCKET FUEL) within a CONTAINER.

This isn't magical thinking, folks.

(lather, rinse, repeat)
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. So, they actually had some of this, right?
Right?

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MrModerate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. And the likely success rate getting the peroxide from . . .
The terrorist den to the cabin of the plane? 5 percent? 10?
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. and how does concentrated peroxide react to plastic containers?
How is rocket fuel stored? In plastic containers too? What kind of chemical reactions occur when it is exposed to various surfaces?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. This I don't know
But I have seen half a dozen threads scoffing at the idea that peroxide is dangerous. It is.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. some googling...
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
90. From Your Link.... and Thanks
However, since no additive will prevent decomposition if excessive contamination occurs, the best practice is to prevent contamination through proper handling. All handling procedures must, therefore, be directed towards maintaining the same degree of purity and freedom from contamination as is maintained during the manufacturing process:



* Storage of hydrogen peroxide should be restricted to its original shipping container or to properly designed containers made of compatible materials which have been thoroughly passivated.

* Hydrogen peroxide that has been removed from the original shipping container should not be returned to it.

* All containers must be properly vented, and preferably stored away from sources of direct heat and combustible materials.

* Adequate ventilation and ample water supply for thorough flushing of accidental spillage on personnel and property should be provided.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. And the magical 'Islamic fascists' actually had all this, right?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Not the point
Lots here scoff at the idea that peroxide is dangerous. It is.

That's all I'm saying.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. That's not the point
whether or not peroxide is dangerous. Any chemical in a highly concentrated form is dangerous.

What does that have to do with whether or not today's terra scare was a real threat, a political ploy, or just another group of al Ciada wannabes? A lot of young boys and men fantasize about blowing things up. Fortunately, most of them find more appropriate ways to express themselves.

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. thank you for
making the point.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
78. You could drown in peroxide, too
doesn't make the terrorist threat really a threat.
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. boxcutters are cheaper and more effective
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
97. And boxcutters paralyze the air defense too. Don't know about h2o2. nt
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Jara sang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
8. This should be moved to the 9/11 conspiracy corral.
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Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. Why? n/t
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Jara sang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory.
Gatorade and peroxide. Do you know how unstable that concoction would be? It would blow up as they transported it to the airport.
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Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. OIC okay n/t
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #21
66. Nobody ever said that all terrorists are smart. n/t
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. Oh Will. Won't You Ever Learn?
Paranoia trumps reason. Even here at the "reality based" DU.

Some will never accept the reality of this plot. It is all Karl. He controls everything.

You know that by now.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Yep.
That about sums it up. It's all a rovian plot to support Lieberman.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
63. Or a Rovian plot to keep the GOP/Neocons in power...n/t
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. No, it's not all Karl.
But why were Democrats on the intelligence committees not privy to this? Why if they were watching these "Islamic fascists" for two weeks did they raise the threat level to RED only today? These aren't fair questions?
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. All Fair Questions. Let Me Try To Answer Them.
My understanding is that very few people in our government knew about this. According to another story linked here on anopther thread they did not tell most American officials until last night, fearing leaks.

As to raising the teror threat level, I assume they did not raise it for the same reason they did not make arrests earlier, they were watching the suspects trying to get to as many connected folks as possible. Raising the terror threat is like publishing on the front page that the Brits were onto them. Secret investigations remain secret until tey are ready to make arrests. Basic police work. And apparently effective.

Reasonable responses?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Reasonable responses.
On the other hand, I cannot poo-poo the opinions of people who, having been frightened by one terror warning after the other, are at least skeptical of the official story.
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
52. Skeptical is one thing.
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 06:16 PM by DistressedAmerican
off the deep end specualation without facts is another.

Hell, I had the exact same reaction on hearing the news. I was just as skeptical as anyone.

However, when people start in with "it pushed Lamont off the front page. KARL!" that is a whole different thing. Asking questions is valid. Jumping to unsupported conclusions cased on nothing but skepticism and correlation in time between this news event and that is flawed logic and not valid.

Hope that makes sense.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. I understand that they wanted to ensnare as many people as possible
but if they've known about this for months, they was no reason for them to "let it ride" to the point where the plotters were ready to acutally board the planes.

:headbang:
rocknation
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
51. They were not ready to board the planes.
The arrests were triggered by the alleged plotters looking up flights online. No one was ready to get on a plane. They did not even have tiackets yet.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #51
58. All the MORE reason not to shut down the airports
Edited on Fri Aug-11-06 09:42 AM by rocknation
especially if they'd been investigating the plot for months. It denigrates the shutdown from a reasonable precaution to a media-diverting overreaction.

:headbang:
rocknation
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
65. That, and apparently the Brits got scared that...
Chimp and Dick were about to blow the lid off of it, for their own selfish purposes. No surprises there.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #65
77. Now THAT'S a story I can believe
These criminals can't be trusted with sensitive information when there are political points to be scored. (See Plame, Valerie)
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
73. Of course, they are reasonable points
Edited on Fri Aug-11-06 10:53 AM by Zodiak Ironfist
At this point, I believe the plot was real, although none of us have any idea how far along this plot was other than there were 20 people possibly connected. They had their group together and had some idea of what they were going to do and when they went to look for tickets, they were busted. Their plan involved some kind of liquid chemical to make an explosion.

That is all we know. It says nothing about how far along the plot was or its feasibility. But, yeah, it was real, and thanks to the British police for the good work.

The Karl Rove part comes from this question: Is the hype generated from this plot proportional to the threat? That is Karl Rove's province, and I am afraid that considering how little information is known to the public, we are left only with a 5 year track record of over-hyping terror threats. Was this a "thought-crime"? Did these guys have any of the material they needed? Is there any physical evidence that they funny-intended to carry out this plot rather than flirt with it?

So, the plot was real, the threat level is unknown, and the media reaction may be too strong in light of recent political events. Not to mention the security measures may be a bit of an over-reaction.

I see no reasons why thinking Karl Rove had a hand in this is completely dependent upon the terror plot being imagined. If nothing, the bastards running our country into the dirt are ridiculously opportunistic.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
86. Why did they raise the alert to CODE RED after foiling the so-called plot?
Is there ANY evidence, even a shred, that leads you to believe that this plot was ever or is now actually an operational threat?
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
79. Please explain
how they would transport this volatile mixture from where they have it to the plane without it blowing the hell up.

Oh, yeah, please explain how they get ahold of some of this.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
13. Considering that what they were *supposed* to be using
Wasn't just concentrated peroxide, but instead was TATP, TriAcetone TriPeroxide, I still call bullshit. TATP is nasty, unstable shit, more unstable than nitroglycerin. They would be foolish to carry that shit around with them, hell they'd probably blow up in the cab going to the airport.

There are much more stable explosives that they could use. TATP is so unstable that even the crazy folks don't play with it unless they absolutely neccessary.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
85. Ressam took HMTD and Rdx on a ferry, along w/nitro. Scary
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/20031...
In December 1999, Algerian Ahmed Ressam was arrested in Port Angeles after riding the ferry from Victoria, B.C. When they searched the trunk of his car, border guards found explosive liquids and powder and more than 100 pounds of fertilizer that can be used to make explosives, which he said were intended to bomb Los Angeles International Airport as part of a 2000 millennium attack plot.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/a-mixture-for-murde...
The Homeland Security and FBI memorandum also reported that Ahmed Ressam, the would-be millennium bomber, had a peroxide-based detonator when he was arrested after entering the US from Canada in 1999.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/10/world/europe/10cnd-pl...
Because of the instability of these substances, spontaneous detonation can occur during the production process, the memo warned. It noted that peroxide has been used by Palestinian suicide bombers and that Ahmed Ressam, the would-be millennium bomber, had a peroxide-based detonator when he was arrested after entering the United States from Canada in 1999.

http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/national/article/0,1406,KNS...
Another planned anti-U.S. attack in which liquid explosives were to be employed was aborted in 1999 by an alert U.S. customs agent at the Washington state border with Canada. The agent noticed Ahmed Ressam's nervousness and searched the trunk of his car, finding liquid explosives ingredients hidden inside toiletry jars.

A native of Algeria and an Islamic extremist, Ressam eventually confessed that he was part of a conspiracy to plant a bomb at Los Angeles International Airport around the dawn of the new millennium.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1225453,...
Ramzi Yousef, who was convicted in 1996 for plotting to simultaneously bomb up to a dozen U.S. commercial airliners flying in the Far East, had manufactured TATP detonators. Arrested Dec. 14, 1999, for planning to attack Los Angeles International Airport in the millennium bombing plot, Ahmed Ressam had HMTD and RDX (cyclotrimethylene trinitrame) in a vial in the trunk of his car. He also had over 100 pounds of urea sulfate white powder and eight ounces of nitroglycerine mixture.

(more @ each link)
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
14. acetone peroxide , TATP - serious stuff, shoe bomber, london bombing
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 05:00 PM by Snivi Yllom
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=peroxide+explosive

you can get the recipe

it's the real deal

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Briefs/4884.htm

Israeli invention detects TATP explosives
By: Israel Insider staff and partners
Published: January 27, 2005


A relatively new difficult-to-detect explosive material called triacetone-triperoxide (TATP), commonly known as acetone peroxide, is one of a group of explosives based on the unstable peroxide group of
compounds. It is increasingly being utilized by terror groups, who used it in the Dolphinarium Disco massacre, several bomb attacks in downtown Jerusalem, and the failed attempt to down a passenger plane by Muslim shoe-bomber Richard Reid.

One of the most alarming attributes of TATP is that it cannot be detected by bomb-sniffing dogs, making it easier to smuggle into airports and onto airplanes. It is also very easy to synthesize in clandestine labs, using readily available chemicals.

"To our great surprise," PET's inventor, Prof. Ehud Keinan, Dean of the Technion's Faculty of Chemistry, wrote in the Journal of the American Chemical Society, "we discovered that TATP is very different from all other conventional explosives in that it does not release heat during the explosion. It explodes by rapid decomposition of every solid-state molecule to four gas-phase molecules. This rare phenomenon, scientifically known as 'Entropic Explosion', is reminiscent of the rapid reaction that produces gas in the safety air-bags of cars during accidents."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide

Many people have been killed or permanently injured by accidents with acetone peroxide. It is widely used by people who want to make homemade explosives because of its low cost and ease of manufacture. They often have no idea of its extreme sensitivity, or they make it anyway solely because it's cheap and can be made in a refrigerator. There is a common myth that the only "safe" acetone peroxide is the trimer, made at low temperatures: "If one is making tricycloacetone peroxide, the temperature must be less than 10 C at all times, otherwise the product formed will be dicycloacetone peroxide, which is so unstable and sensitive that it has no uses in the field of explosives: dicycloacetone peroxide has been known to explode spontaneously." In reality, the acid-catalyzed peroxidation of acetone always produces a mixture of dimeric and trimeric forms. The trimer is the more stable form, but not much more so than the dimer. All forms of acetone peroxide are very sensitive to initiation. Organic peroxides are sensitive, dangerous explosives. The military does not use them because there are many much better alternatives. Even for people who synthesize homemade explosives, there are many far safer alternatives. Even nitroglycerin is not nearly as sensitive as acetone peroxide.

It is believed that Acetone peroxide was used as the explosive in the 7 July 2005 London bombings.<2> This however is debated by some conspiracy theorists, who believe government organisations may have synthesised such a story about use of acetone peroxide to add credibility to the official report. <3> However, it cannot be proved one way or another, and the fact still remains that this chemical compound may be used for such a purpose as terrorism.<4> It is alleged that Richard Reid (shoe bomber) was found with equipment that may have been used to cause explosions using TATP.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. more
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munition...

Triacetone Triperoxide (TATP)

A new terrorist explosive, triacetone triperoxide (TATP), has recently appeared as a weapon in the Middle East. TATP has been used by suicide bombers in Israel, and was chosen as a detonator in 2001 by the thwarted "shoe bomber" Richard Reid. It can be as or more powerful than military analogs. TATP is one of the most sensitive explosives known, being extremely sensitive to impact, temperature change and friction. Another peroxide-type explosive is hexamethylene triperoxide diamine (HMTD), which is less sensitive than TATP but still dangerous. HMTD is somewhat more sensitive to impact than TCPT, but both are very sensitive explosives.

The explosion of TATP is not a thermochemically highly favored event. In conventional high explosives such as TNT, each molecule contains both a fuel component and an oxidising component. When the explosive detonates, the fuel part is oxidised and as this combustion reaction spreads it releases large amounts of heat. The explosion of TATP involves entropy burst, which is the result of formation of one ozone and three acetone molecules from every molecule of TATP in the solid state. Just a few hundred grams of the material produce hundreds of litres of gas in a fraction of a second.

The explosion of TATP is similar to the decomposition of azide, for example, which produces nitrogen gas but little heat, is used to fill airbags for cars. TATP is the most extreme example currently known, but it may be possible to design molecules that behave as an even more powerful explosive.

TATP can be easily prepared in a basement lab using commercially available starting materials obtained from, e.g., hardware stores, pharmacies, and stores selling cosmetics. TATP is a fairly easy explosive to make, as far as explosives manufacturing goes. All it takes is acetone, hydrogen peroxide (3% medicinal peroxide is not concentrated enough), and a strong acid like hydrochloric or sulfuric acid. I don't recommended mixing up a batch for Independence Day celebrations because it's easy to blow yourself up when you make it.

On Dec. 22, 2001, American Airlines Flight 63, carrying a crew of 14 and a passenger complement of 184, including "shoe bomber" Richard Reid, departed Charles de Gaulle Airport in Paris, France, bound for Miami, Florida. Approximately one and a half hours into the flight, a flight attendant smelled what she thought was a burnt match. After the flight attendant determined that it was coming from where Reid was seated, she confronted Reid, at which time he put a match into his mouth. The flight attendant alerted the captain over the intercom system. Reid went on to light another match in an apparent attempt to set fire to his shoe. The flight attendant then noticed a wire protruding from the shoe. A struggle ensued among several of the flight attendants, passengers and Reid. Ultimately Reid was subdued and restrained for the remainder of the flight. The flight was diverted for landing to Boston's Logan International Airport, where Reid was taken into federal custody. Later analysis by the FBI laboratory in Washington determined that there were two functional improvised explosive devices hidden in Reid's shoes made of the explosive material triacetone triperoxide, known as "TATP," and other components. Richard Reid's shoe had 8 or 10 ounces of triacetone triperoxide and PETN.

Because of the wide range of energetic materials and the many differences in their physical properties, several detection devices detect only certain types of explosives and fail to detect others. For example, many detection devices readily detect conventional explosives made of organic nitro and nitrate compounds, but fail to detect explosives made of inorganic nitrates or non-nitrogeneous compounds. In particular, many nitrogen-based detection devices fail to detect explosives such as ANFO (ammonium nitrate in fuel oil), Black Powder ("gun powder" formed from potassium nitrate, sulfur, and charcoal), and triacetone triperoxide (TATP). As a result, such explosives are sometimes referred to as "transparent."
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
92. Funny, but neither the initial London bombing & shoe bomber reports
said anything about TATP. Funny, huh?

London bombs military grade: http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2005/London-Bombs-Milit...

Shoe bomber used C4: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/12/26/inv.reid.mosque/i...
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
18. Peroxide is the oxidizer - you need a reduced organic compound
to make it go boom.

***Fuck you Agent Mike***
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
34. Or a finely divided metal
Boomarino!
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Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
20. Did they have the materials, or just a plan. Does any one know? n/t
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Good question.
WilliamPitt seems to base his whole position on their having some kind of super peroxide.

Has anyone bothered to ask whether they had super peroxide?

Are the Neonazicons going to tell us or would that jeopardize "security"? Amazing how we still go through this every single time.

Evidence, people. Where is the evidence? If they can't show us any, then it is likely (yet) another lie.
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Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. A plan without materials is a "thought crime" and should not be a crime
at all. If thought crimes are punishable, the PTB can say anything about anyone - they planned to do this or that, and lock people up harem scarem. IMO thought crimes are anathema to the rule of law that they love to yammer on about. It scares me.

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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. How very prescient of you.
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 05:41 PM by The Stranger
It has already become thoughtcrime, I'm afraid.

The criminal act is no longer necessary, only the mind.

VERY prescient of you.

:loveya:
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Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. I wish I could see it in a bit more innocent light than I do
The potential for allowing case law on thought crimes to be established is tremendous - they've already begun here, with Hamdan and Padilla, but the cases had a fragment more substance than just the idea - oh my :(
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #29
70. I have lost count of the number of "thought crimes" I have committed
against *Co over the past 6 years. Fantasies of them getting their comeuppance give me the strength to carry on.

Hey, Agent Mike. Wanna do something about it?????

Assholes.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
96. Like plotting with others to kill your spouse, maybe?
Not a crime? Wait until it happens to step in?
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. Actually, he didn't say that at all.
What he said was that this super peroxide is very lethal. He never gave a comment one way or the other about whether he thought these alleged terrorists had any.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #43
57. If they didn't have any, then it isn't even relevant to discuss.
It was necessarily implied, otherwise the post was meaningless.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #43
80. Nuclear warheads
are very lethal, too. They didn't have any of them, either.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
35. I'd post it but then I'd have to shoot you
Some things are best not advertised.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
26. But how stable is the stuff--stable enough to be transported
in a mere glass bottle? And how much would you need?

:headbang:
rocknation
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Richard Reid wore it in his shoes
A cigarette pack sized charge would blow a hole through an airliner fuselage.
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #28
68. the shoebomber (reid) had PETN in his shoes
and the detonator was black powder, not TATP.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/12/26/inv.reid.mosque/i...
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #68
93. They changed the story later to TATP when they couldn't figure out
how to make it believable that anyone would trust an idiot like Richard Reid with C4 (other than an intelligence agency trying to scare people, that is).
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Alternatively, could you make it a bathroom in a few minutes
With precursor materials you could fit into a purse or your pockets?
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. you would have it made already in a home lab
it does not set if nitrogen based explosive detectorsdangerous stuff

easy to kill yourself making it, such as in this story

Bomb Squad To Detonate Explosive Materials Found In Apartment
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
50. It sounds so unstable that you might not make it to the airport
Which is why I suggested they might have to prepare it on the plane, which seems like an unlikely bit of chemistry.
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Tin Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #26
75. * * * * PHOTOS HERE * * * * London subway bombs
Edited on Fri Aug-11-06 12:05 PM by Tin Man





The above images are excess bombs fashioned by the London subway bombers, recovered from the trunk of one bombers personal vehicle. Note the use of plastic bottles and glass jars to contain the explosive material - allegedly peroxide based.

Just saying, similar technology was previously employed in the London subway attacks with devastating effect. I find it reasonable to believe the alleged London airline conspirators would begin with a technology previously validated in similar attacks.

They may have improved a bit upon the design used in the subway bombing by employing a liquid, rather than powder form, of the peroxide-based explosive, which when camoflagued within 'Gatoraid' bottles could conceivably pass as the real item (maybe the explosive liquid has a color similar to a particular flavor of Gatoraid, I dunno)

Edit: it occurred from reading post #72, maybe these guys intended to smuggle aboard the peroxide-based explosive in powdered form, as pictured above, but disguised within Gatoraid packets or tubs - perhaps that would explain the 'bottles of Gatoraid' aspect of this story.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #75
95. That powder ain't getting snuck onto a plane,
not even past our perhaps too lax security.
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Tin Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #95
98. Think so? Read this House testimony from June 30th 2006
Edited on Fri Aug-11-06 05:58 PM by Tin Man
Lawmakers criticize TSA screening systems as inefficient
By Jonathan Marino
jmarino@govexec.com

Lawmakers on Thursday called the Transportation Security Administration's baggage screening and bomb detection systems inadequate and said failure rates of some programs indicate the potential for dire consequences.

"The system we now have in place, the failure rate is just disastrous," said Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Aviation Subcommittee, at a hearing. Detailed information on failure rates is classified, the lawmakers said.

Complete article at:
http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0606/063006j1.htm
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
31. Ya Don't Have To Tell Me. I Made It Through 8th Grade Science.
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screembloodymurder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
32. Hell, I gargle with the stuff.
You've got to be kidding.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
33. It takes a heck of a lot more than a sports drink bottle full to do...
a plane in.

Ever see how BIG the Space Shuttle is?

Omission of pertinent facts is as bad as overlooking them.
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Tin Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #33
76. Not necessarily. Simply punching a hole through the pressurized fuselage
...of a jetliner flying at 35,000 feet, as well as 500 miles from the nearest airport, can be a very bad event for everyone onboard.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
39. T Stoff 80% Hydrogen peroxide
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 05:49 PM by Hubert Flottz
German Rocket Fuel Types

The various German missiles and rocket planes used many type of fuel as propellants. There were ten main types and they are listed in the following table:

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/general/science/...

Edit to add...

T-stoff is a bipropellant rocket fuel (oxidizer) used in Germany during World War 2. One of its uses was to be combined with C-Stoff in the Messerschmitt Me 163 for fuel, at a ratio of three parts C-Stoff to one part T-stoff. The extreme toxicity of T-stoff caused it to decompose violently when brought into contact with any combustible substance, including human flesh. Because the two substances were so visibly similar, a complex testing system was developed to make sure that each fuel was put into the correct tanks of the Messerschmitt Me 163, as an improper loading would cause the aircraft to explode.

Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) ~80% by Weight

http://www.answers.com/topic/t-stoff

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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. more likely it was TATP
The terrorist homemade bomb material of choice these days since nitrogen detectors don't pick it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. It's use by terrorist is 'alleged'.
Frankly, there's plenty of stronger commercial explosives lying around.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. yes, but TATP is not picked up by nitrogen explosive detectors
much easier to smuggle on a plane, dogs cant smell it
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. I'd think dragging 50 gallons of some mysterious fluid on a plane...
Would be noticed.

Especially, if it was carry-on.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. you would not need 50 gallons of TATP
you would need ounces

the TATP would be made in a home lab, then smuggled in, not made on the plane which would be impossible in the timeframe of a flight
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
44. If you googled this, Your IP address is in the hands of the NSA...
I almost guarantee * has that setup right now.
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
46. How would they get concentrated peroxide? Is it tracked when sold?
Can it be distilled at home? Wouldn't there be a screening for the person or people suspected of having or carrying it?
Sounds like an overreaction to a hint of a clue. Should we be worrying about this or should interpol and FBI have this under control. Seems like a twist of the old fear noose snapping us back in line with terror.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Probably not looking into that because...
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 06:09 PM by Hubert Flottz
They are spending all the time, money and manpower spying on you and me and the Quakers!

More on T Stoff

http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/procedure.html
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
48. Rocket fuel needs an powerful oxidizer (tetroxide/perchlorate)
and a reduced "fuel" kerosene, hydrazine or aluminum.

I don't doubt for a minute that someone can make an explosive with concentrated peroxide and acetone (or nitric acid and glycerin - or ammonium nitrate and kerosene).

But you need both to do it (and Gatorade doesn't have enough sugar in it to be used in an explosive mixture).

30% hydrogen peroxide is a standard reagent used in soil and plant nitrogen analysis. I've worked with it in the past. It will give you a real nasty burn, but it's not explosive by itself...





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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #48
62. It's Commercially Available at 35, 50, and 70%
The rocket grade is 90% minimum. Very difficult to handle and not stable. Even exposure to light will cause a decomposition to molecular oxygen and a subsequent lowering of concentration.
The Professor
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
53. The terrorists are obviously more intelligent than most Americans
They know how to be creative and they know chemistry. Americans in general don't get any further than drinking the gatorade from their gatorade bottle.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
54. Amazing what a quick google will bring
up on how to make a bomb. Try it. I googled pipe bombs, but knock yourself out with different types of bombs.
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MUSTANG_2004 Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
56. It caused the Kursk disaster
A hydrogen peroxide leak caused the explosion that sank the Kursk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Kursk_ex...
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
59. *this* close Will
As I posted here Who is going to be the first of the MSM to just go ahead and show us how to make a bomb?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
60. You Need Chemistry Classes, Will
First of all, they don't launch rockets with peroxide. The peroxide is the oxygen source, at a density far beyond that oxygen gas can be compressed. It's used, not because it's explosive (it isn't). It's used because it's a far more weight efficient way to carry the oxygen source needed to help the fuel burn.

Which brings me to the primary point: They still need a highly reactive, and high energy per unit mass organic to act as the detonating or conflagrating mass. Peroxide alone will do nothing. The peroxide reacts with the organic to liberate a heat of combustion when all the bond energy is released within a few microseconds.

So, if anybody is thinking magic, it's you.

Tell you what! Let's have a deal. 'Round these parts, you be the writer, and i'll be the chemist! Deal?
The Professor
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moc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #60
64. Thank you for your informative responses. Everyone should
read them. My father is a retired organic chemist (and my mother is a retired chemist as well). I am seeing them this weekend and look forward to their thoughts on these events.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #60
67. When we were kids
we had the baking soda/peroxide powered rockets we shot off in our back yard. I miss those - guess they are too dangerous for kids to play with these days, might put out an eye or sumthing.

Thanks Professor for the explanation, your's does make the most sense. :hi:

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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #60
69. Okay professor, here's a question for you
from all I read here it appears that the "organic" material needed could be their own bodies.

If indeed they are suicidal and some of these chemicals are reactive - one quote here about the German fueling and human flesh being in the mix got me thinking, then the Person would be the Bomb, and all they'd need would be something to "set them off"..

Scary thought, am I anywhere near correct? Just interesting to think that a Person could be the explosive device, their own flesh..
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. Pretty Far Fetched
This is somewhat mythological, i would surmise. Sure, with enough oxidative potential, anything can be made to combust, if carbon is present in the structure.

But, remember the things that set apart detonatable materials are total bond energy, and bond length. The more energy contained per unit mass and the less total bond distance per mole, the more intensely and rapidly something can burn.

One other thing that distinguishes most explosive materials is an intrinsic supply of oxygen. That way, the combustion can happen with a minimum of external air or oxygen, meaning there is little to inhibit the burn.

Remember that an explosion is essentially something burning, very, very fast. In fact, explosive potential is measure in the meters per second of burn rate. So, no matter how much oxidizer one uses, there are organic components in the body that simply lack the intrinsic oxygen, lack the combustion potential (being far along in the oxidative states), and lack the inherent bond energy to burn at a rate sufficient to cause overpressure, even at the micro scale.

So, this is an extraordinarily unlikely scenario. There is nothing in the human body that even begins to approximate the bond energy per unit mass of gasoline, let alone a truly explosive organic.
The Professor
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #71
91. Thanks, I was wondering
we're more like a slow rust..

Now all they need to do is come up with a car that runs on humans, the Cannimobile since Bush's future seems to include a large supply for everyone.

Appreciate the info :)
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. Perhaps rust..
... is merely a very slow burn :)
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #69
81. I wondered the same thing...Could a terrorist "swallow" a bomb?
Much like "mules" would transport heroine into this country by swallowing pouches of the stuff to get through checkpoints, then regurgitate the pouches when safe. What's to stop a suicidal terrorist from swallowing a pouch with tiny amount of high-explosive, battery and timer? Or a larger bag of just a highly-explosive substance with an accompanying bag containing a timer, battery and small amount of explosive for detonating purposes? These things are getting smaller and smaller each year.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #60
74. I wish I could K&R this post!
Thanks.
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
61. I think you
might be talking about hydrazine? Very unstable and corrosive stuff. I would be surprised if they actually had this as the tendency to blow up is very high. ME-163 in WW2 used this fuel and sometimes blew up on takeoff.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
72. The hardest part for me will be to give off water bottle
The air on the planes is very dry and trying to get water from the attendants with ruffled nerves trying to negotiate the narrow aisle is a losing proposition:

"Please stay in your seat.. we will get there.."

I do put powdered Gatorade in my water bottle when I am going to the gym and once there, I add water and mix it. So I wondered, aloud, whether this would be the eay to go on the planes. My spouse reaction:

"Oh yes, you will be very popular on the plane mixing water with powder.."

On the other hand, someone on CNN earlier today said that, once you pass through security you can purchase anything at the concession stands close to the gates.

Will they arrest me if I purchase a bottle of water inside the terminal?


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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #72
87. I understand they were doing checks at the gate as well
So you can drink water you purchased at store gate side but you can't take that on the plane with you. Idiocy!
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. Some idiot "terrorism" expert was on local radio this afternoon
saying the peroxide in the drug store could be used. Where oh where do they find these morans? I swear a few of them are "terrorism" like I'm a "terrorism" expert. Hell I probably am, I swear from DU, Randi, internet, etc., I know more than they do.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
82. Carbonated Sode + Mentos - Terrorism!
:evilgrin:
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
83. Will...I hear you. Hear me. Please.
IMO, this is a complete exercise in CONTROL. Why can't someone bring a chapstick on a plane yet only 10% of our check-in luggage across the country is scanned for bombing materials? That means all of these long lines and "security" checks really mean NOTHING, eh? Who cares if I have a lipstick tube with me if the belly of my plane is FULL OF EXPLOSIVES? Think about it.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
84. Anything to get the plane there faster.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
89. you're right, Will.
maybe you should hide under your bed until this whole scary thing blows over.
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