Who should we fear the most, Islamic Fascists or Neo Con Fascists?

[Philosoraptor]

Should we fear Osama more than Dick Cheney? Hezbollah more than Rummy and Condi?

Which of these groups is the greater threat to the world?

While the right is calling us terrorists, their leader is the number one terrorist.

There ain't even no such of a critter as an Islamic Fascist, unless you count the Saudis maybe.

[leftofthedial]

1. "Islamic fascists" is a nonsense term

there is no such thing

meanwhile, the neocons are the most horrivfic band of criminals in world history

[Fredda Weinberg]

3. Dream on ... in NYC, we're still looking at a hole in the ground n/t

[leftofthedial]

4. it's not fascism

hole or no hole

have you figured out who really put the hole there yet?

[Fredda Weinberg]

8. Look it up, it fits the definition

And yeah, we got a pretty good sense here what happened.

[leftofthedial]

16. who are the corporate enablers of the fundamentalist muslims

being blamed with that term?

who is the central authority?

what happened? who is "we"?

[CJCRANE]

46. I suggest you

investigate exactly who transferred the $500,000 to the hijackers. Follow the money.

[Hoping4Change]

25. There is nothing preventing an Islamic state from becoming a fascist state

Wherever a people feel victimized, fascist forces can exploit that sense of victimization to achieve their own ends.

[jpkenny]

51. The latter, of course, because they now control our government.

[The Stranger]

52. You won't find them there either -- they don't exist.

[Fredda Weinberg]

2. Saudis maybe?

Have you forgotten Sadat's assassination in Egypt after making peace with Israel? The diminution of women's rights after the Taliban took over Afghanistan? The ayatollahs restricting who can run for political office in Iran?

If this is how DUers see the world, I'm afraid the neo-cons may have a point.

[leftofthedial]

5. it's not fascism.

and much of it is not Islamic.

[Fredda Weinberg]

7. What's your definition

Dictionary.com says

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control.

[AZBlue]

17. Note the lack of reply to that.

Yeah, it's hard to continue an illogical argument when you've got cold hard facts staring you in the face.

Good one, Fredda!!

[leftofthedial]

32. Umm, I see several replies to that

it's not what we don't know that's the problem

it's what we "know" that just ain't so.

[readmoreoften]

19. Insurgents aren't a system of government with a dictator.

And we aren't even looking for Osama anymore. That's how important we think he is. (And I live in NYC too.)

[Hoping4Change]

20. Eternal Fascism by Umberto Eco

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[leftofthedial]

22. islamic terrorist organizations do not fit the definition

there is no nationalism (all the major fundie muslims operate without a country--often IN SPITE of local authorities). In fact, Islam would view nationalism as a mortal transgression against Allah.

there is no central authority

actual fascist regimes have always featured corporate sponsorship of political objectives (despite what dictionary.com says). Islamic fundies are insane vermin, but don't have "Coca Cola" or "BP" stickers on the side of their tanks. Oh, yeah. They also don't have tanks. Or airplanes of their own. Or a navy. Or a country.

Not every asshole or totalitarian is a fascist.

[MadHound]

23. A bullshit, RW term that degrade all Muslims

That is what Islamofacist is. Geez, where are all these people coming from! This is the second thread I've seen today slinging that insult around like it was a freeper holiday

Listen up, fascism is a secular, centralized political construct. Al-Qaeda and other such organizations aren't centralized at all, they exist as small, independent cells. So much for the fascist angle. Now if you're talking about the religiously dominated governments of Iran or Pakistan, well those are best described as a theocracy.

Islamofascism is a derogatory term that was designed over in the RW echo chamber to insult all of those of the Muslim faith. Don't believe me, go down to your local mosque and make a statement using that word. Then see how long before you get your ass kicked.

[Hoping4Change]

27. Anybody and any state can embrace a fascist ideology.

What makes Muslims exempt? I suggest you carefully visit the blog below. It has an excellent historical overview of this issue.

Fromm his closing remarks

"The term "Islamofascism" is thrown around quite freely in some quarters. There is such a thing, just as there are extremist interpretations of Judaism, Christianity, and Hinduism that call for the fight against anything "other". What's wrong with the term "Islamofascist" is when some people apply it to any Muslim who seeks to an integration of Islam and politics, even if that Muslim condemns Bin Laden and Zawahiri. Such a distortion inhibits debate.

There are certain policies and certain beliefs that are fascist and rightly deserve to be called so, policies and beliefs that dehumamize those who are of a different religion or ethnic group and that promote violence against the other religion or ethnic group.

But Islam is not itself a fascist ideology. In fact, Islam condemns all such hatred and violence. I have posted about this in the past to my blog and to my website and I encourage anyone who doesn't believe me to take the time to read my archives and to browse my site. "




http://www.muhajabah.com/islamicblog/archives/veiled4al ...

[MadHound]

29. People of the Muslim faith are not exempt from having a fascist government

Iraq was a good example of that. However Iraq was also a secular government, not based on any religion.

A government based on religious ideals is best termed a theocracy. Yes, it is a centralized, totalitarian government, much like a fascist one, but its organizing principles are based on religion, which specifically differentiate it from a fascist government.

Islamofascism is a term designed by the RW media in order to insult all Muslims. It is also a politically inaccurate one. And frankly its usage makes a person look ignorant and uncouth to the world at large.

I've talked to a number of Muslim friends and aquaintances, and they too find the term to be insulting and disingenous. I will take their word, and the facts of political terminology over the writings of an internet blogger anyday of the week.

[Hoping4Change]

35. The blogger quotes Islamic scholars who are infinitely more

qualified to address this then a group of opinionated friends.


is there an Islamic fascism?
Date: February 20, 2003 | 18 Dhu-l-Hijjah 1423 Hijriah
Blog: veiled4allah
Subjects: fiqh
Some of the visions of Muslim extremists like Bin Laden are, if not technically fascist, fundamentally totalitarian. Bin Laden's political views seem to be based on those of his comrade, Ayman Zawahiri. This particular ideology is called hakimiya. Here is Zawahiri's own explanation of hakimiya:


Democracy is shirk-u-billah (assigning partners with God). The distinction between democracy and tawhid (monotheism), is that tawhid renders legislation the sole prerogative of God whereas democracy is the rule of the people for the people ..... The legislator in democracy is the people while the legislator in tawhid is the Almighty God .... Hence, democracy is shirk (idolatry) because it usurps the right to legislation from the Almighty and offers it to the people.
This view is based on the ideas of Syed Qutb:


Qutb's theory essentially views society as one of two things: Islamic or Jahili. A Muslim, by declaring his faith in Allah at the same time repudiates all man-made systems and laws. Islam represents a clean break from Jahiliyya just like the Quran was a clean break from existing literature and the Prophet and his companions were a new society, an Ummah, completely different from the Jahili society around them. There is no link, no relationship between Islam and other systems. A Muslim can not reform Jahiliyya by preaching or warning, he must obliterate it and build an Islamic Society from new foundations. This is a simplistic, but fair exposition of Qutb's thesis. He does come up with arguments that show Western Civilization as wicked and materialistic and its adverse impacts on Muslim society. The way out is al-Hakimiyya, the declaration of total sovereignty and rulership of Allah, a full revolt against human rulership in all its forms, systems and arrangements, the destruction of the kingdom of man to establish the kingdom of God on earth... A revolution based on this theory does not think of improving the existing system, of understanding it or participating in it, but of destroying it first and then building a new one. It is based on the assumption that there is nothing good in the system.


Zawahiri's hakimiya is a total perversion of Islam. Nigerian scholar Sanusi L. Sanusi says:


The reality of course is that this theory, attractive as it may be, is not Islam. The prophet (S. A. W.) never claimed that he was sent to destroy both the good and bad. Even the hadith "Al-Islam Yahdimu ma qablahu" (Islam destroys what came before it) is a portion of a hadith in Sahih Muslim quoted out of context and which refers to the evil deeds of Jahiliyya, not the good ones. The prophet said, "I have been but sent to complete noble attributes (Makarim al-Akhlaq)". He was not the first prophet. Islam was not the first message received, the Quran was not the first of revelations. The Religion of Islam, the Prophet of Islam, the Book of Islam are but fulfilments and seals to what had passed before. Allah says in the Quran "Today I have Perfected your system of belief and made full My favours bestowed upon you and chosen al-Islam as the creed for you" (Al-Ma'idah:3) Islam does not pretend to separate itself from world civilization. Indeed as the early companions expanded the dominion of Islam they borrowed extensively from what was on ground in the more politically organized States of Persia and Iraq what was necessary for the Arabs, a nomadic people, to learn as they settled in towns. Innovations were introduced to the interpretation and distribution of booty, the creation of an Islamic calendar, the opening of a Diwan (roster) for welfare from the State etc. The Muslim takes what is good from civilization around him, and leaves what is bad.

British Muslim scholar Azzam Tamimi provides an even more detailed criticism of hakimiya:


Islamists, who treat the questions of democracy or power-sharing as matters of aqidah (faith), usually have no specialised or adequate knowledge in the humanities, and are indoctrinated with some shallow Islamic literature. They tend to define things with extreme simplicity. For instance, they understand Islamic government to mean "God's rule" and democracy to mean "people's rule". No only are issues of politics too complex to be simplified in this manner, but the conception of God's rule is totally misunderstood. The early Muslims understood God's rule to be a doctrine for the emancipation of humanity so that kings and landlords no longer monopolised wealth or power or law-making, and that clergymen no longer had the right to monopolise the right to interpret God's Will or to speak in His Name. "God's rule" is a revolution which means that a governor has an executive power but not a legislative one. "God's rule" does not mean that God comes down to govern or administer humanity's affairs. "God's rule" means the sovereignty of the law, which is a fundamental thing in the modern state, the state of law and order. God's rule is therefore consistent with the rule of the people or their representatives, who in the old Islamic literature are frequently referred to as "ahl al-hall w'al-aqd" (an elected group of highly qualified and experienced individuals), within the framework of the supremacy of the Islamic law, Shari'ah.

[MadHound]

43. And what is another term for hakimiya

Theocracy! Not fascism, which is secular based, not Islamofascism, which is a term of insult slung around in the RW echo chamber. It is indeed a theocratic construct. And thus if it is so, address it by its proper name, theocracy, not some made up, muddled up term that insults Muslims.

A totalitarian political organization based on God's rule, whoever or whatever that God may be, is inherently theocratic. Got that? Good! Use it, not some contrived term that insults people. We're democrats, liberals, progressives, we're supposed to be the intelligent ones remember? Not the ones who throw around insulting terms that were just made up by RW shills like Hitchens only a few years ago.

[Hoping4Change]

48. If you don't like the term Islamic Fascism use the tern Clerical Fascism.

Clerical fascism
The term has been used to describe organisations and movements that combine religious elements with fascism, support by religious organisations for fascism, or fascist regimes in which clergy play a leading role.



"Clerical fascism is an ideological construct that combines the political and economic doctrines of fascism with theology or religious tradition. The term has been used to describe organisations and movements that combine religious elements with fascism, support by religious organisations for fascism, or fascist regimes in which clergy play a leading role. For Catholic clerical fascism, the term Catholic integralism is sometimes used, though Catholic integralism does not necessarily go together with fascism.

Examples of dictatorships or political movements involving elements of clerical fascism include those of Antonio Salazar in Portugal, Engelbert Dollfuss in Austria, Ante Pavelic and the Ustashe in Croatia, Miklos Horthy in Hungary, the Iron Guard movement in Romania, and the government of Vichy France. The regime of Francisco Franco Bahamonde in Spain has been described by some as clerical fascist, especially after the decline in influence of the Falange beginning in the mid-1940s. With the exception of the Croation Ustashe movement, scholars debate which other examples in this list should be dubbed, without reservation, clerical fascist.

Some scholars consider certain contemporary movements to be forms of clerical fascism, including Christian Identity and possibly Christian Reconstructionism in the United States; some militant forms of politicized Islamic fundamentalism; and militant Hindu nationalism in India (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh / Bharatiya Janata Party)."



http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Clerical_fascism

[MadHound]

60. Rather than using new buzz words that are both meaningless and demeaning

I think I will stick the *proper* terms for such matters, such as theocracy and religious fundementalism. I believe in being both accurate and tolerant, and words like islamofascist are neither.

[AntiFascist]

44. I have heard ultra right-wing Orthodox Jews argue almost exactly...

the same thing, that basically the rule of God will trump any form of democracy. At some point, all fundamentalist theocrats are going to decide that they are basically on the same wavelength and call for a truce, then democracy may really be in trouble.

[AntiFascist]

40. This is an excellent point: "Islam is not itself a fascist ideology"

whereas "Mein Kampf" certainly was.

"Christo-fascists" are inherently anti-Christian. "Islamo-fascists" are inherently anti-Islam. Anyone who follows Bush-thinking is an idiot.

[Hoping4Change]

42. Agreed Islam is not itself a fascist ideology however the point

is that it can co-exist in a fascist state. There is nothing preventing any Muslim from becoming a fascist or supporting a fascist state. Jews, Christians, Hindus, Muslims can have their faith and be fascists too.

[AntiFascist]

47. I believe Hitler started out as a "Christian" and had the support of...

the Catholic church. What's missing is a unifying leader, is bin Ladin supposed to be that? I doubt it.

The "centralized" holy Islamic sites are located in Saudi Arabia. No matter what Syria and Iran decide to do, most of the Islamic faithful would be looking toward Mecca for direction. Best not to piss them off.

[Hoping4Change]

50. I'm not sure I understand your post.

For clarification: All I am saying is that fascism is an ideology that can co-exist with any religious point of view. The stated aim of Al-Qaeda is to re-establish the Caliphate, if such a thing came into existence nothing would prevent it from being a fascist state as well as a theocracy.
One does not negate the other.


However I would argue that theocracy is a mere breathe away from fascism for many reasons such as placing collective rights over individual rights. Umberto Eco's essay of Fascism is very illuminating.



http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html

[AntiFascist]

53. Then I would have to disagree...

I don't believe that fascism can, very easily, coexist with a religious ideology that opposes fascism. Much of accepted religious ideology is up for interpretation and can be twisted in many different ways, as we have seen. I suppose I am taking an ideological stand myself in saying this, but I don't believe that Islam is an inherently fascist religion and I don't believe that it will evolve into the establishment of a fascist Caliphate. Certainly, al-Qaeda may have its own fascistic goals in the name of Islam, but I believe there are ulterior motives involved. Bin Ladin may himself be brainwashed, but there are other forces empowering him.

[Hoping4Change]

56. I am not in any way saying that any religion is inherently fascistic.

However please cite a religion that opposes fascism. Religions as in religios tests don't address fascism which is why religions are not the best bulward against it.

[AntiFascist]

58. In a nutshell I would have to say that....

if one's religious faith dictates how one should conduct their own personal life, as opposed to how to dictate rules upon which others should live, then it does not support fascism. I don't know if there are any specific scriptures which are opposed to fascism, if that is what you are asking. I suppose it is really a question of the approach of whichever religious organization you subscribe to: are they trying to help you shape your own personal spiritual life, or are they trying to shape the outside world to conform to their spiritual beliefs. Most religious organizations that do not consist of crazed warmongers would choose the former. However, I'm sure that crazed warmongering has played a serious role in religious crusades of the past.

[KansDem]

39. Wait! You just described the US of A!

...under the Bushistas!

[Rex]

10. They didn't just call us the Great Satan all those years for nothing!

Think people, OBL didn't want SA turned into a military base. Poppy Bush did after GWI and got his way. The neo-cons always have a point about something, problem is they never know what any of it means.

[Fredda Weinberg]

11. He didn't want infidels on holy soil

I'm sorry some DUers are having a hard time with this, but 9/11 wasn't the first attack on the WTC.

[Finder]

13. What about the assassination of Rabin?

I think every country has its fascist movements(including the US)but only those countries who define themselves(through their leaders) according to race, religion, nationality would qualify as fascists.

There are 4 types of countries right to left...Fascist, Capitalist, Socialist, Communist. It does not matter whether they are a democracy, theocracy or dictatorship.

The US is capitalist but sways right and left from fascist to socialist.

[CJCRANE]

49. Reagan/Bush

funded the Afghan Mujahideen which became the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

B*sh is in the pockets of the Saudis. If he was really against "islamic fascism" he would have to go against his own buddies. It's not gonna happen and it's not a valid term.

[madmusic]

6. Fear neither, but...

Kick their asses.

[msmcghee]

9. It is instructive to note . .

. . that on a day when every Ameircan with a brain is thanking their lucky stars that Scottland Yard stopped this plot before thousands of Americans were killed . . and shuddering to think that one of their loved ones could have been killed.


We here at DU have

1) three threads up at one time claiming that Islamo Fascism does not exist

2) a dozen or more suggesting that the plot is phony and designed to boost Bush's ratings

3) and one suggesting that this Repuke adminstration is a greater threat to America than Islamo-Fascism

I'm sure any wavering or undecided voters will now be convinced of our vast ability to accurately analyze complex world events in a rational and intelligent manner.

On edit: Oh yeah, a current poll shows by a 123 to 38 margin (over 3 to 1) Du'ers today believe that this "terror plot" is phony.

And it keeps getting better by the minute: A new poll just appeared asking if we get hit by a terrorist attack again - will Bush skate? Basically suggesting that we care far more about destroying Bush than Americans dieing from terrorism.

[earth mom]

14. Use YOUR brain--WHO are the REAL Terrorists?!

And while you're at it don't insult the rest of us who are smart enough to NOT buy into * & Cos Terra Terra Terra meme! We're calling them on their bullshit, while you're buying into it hook line and sinker.

Well....Hope ya have fun living in the former U.S. of A and bowing and scraping to King George!

[GeorgeGist]

15. Why may I ask...

do you think only about what Americans think?

And what's this 'Lucky Stars' nonsense?

[msmcghee]

26. I realize my post might be too subtle . .

. . for you. But, this affcets how Americans see the left - when something very emotional and scary happens to them - and we say it was hoax to improve Bush's rating.

They might get the idea that entrusting the safety of their childrens lives to Democrats would be a pretty dumb move. From reading many of the really dumb posts here I'm starting to think they might be right.

[readmoreoften]

24. Americans are going to die of terrorism BECAUSE of Bush.

Fundamentalist islamist insurgents are like rats in NYC. You don't want them in your apartment. So you work hard to live clean; you set some traps; you buy a electronic sensor to keep them from coming in your space.

You don't load the garbage and fill the parks with bombs and send bunker busters into the subways to kill the rats, only to watch the army of rats grow as they feed on the dead bodies in the streets.

That's how I envision Bush vs Islamists

[KingFlorez]

33. Call it what it is

Islamo Fascism does not exist, it's something made up by the right to cater to their base. Call terrorism what it is, don't attach religious labels too it. If you don't get that Bush's actions have killed even more Americans, than you need a lesson in recent history.

[Philosoraptor]

34. it all sounds so HITLERIAN

its the crazy fascist Muslims of the world fucking everything up...echoes of adolph.

[megatherium]

57. Thank you! nt

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. Fear neither

instead work for justice and for truth. Fearing something only adds to their power. Knowing truth and remaining at peace with yourself is the key. People can sense this and they will listen to what you say, espeically now. People are tired of fear. They are looking for something else.

[jerry611]

18. Islamic radicals are the worst

If Islamic radicals were to take over the world, they would first kill the jews, then the gays, then the liberals...
The christians and conservatives will be the last people they target.

[uppityperson]

21. As opposed to the NeoconRadicals

They would first kill or enslave the Muslims, then the poor, then the gays, then the blacks, then the...

[Generator]

28. In a real sense our American neo-fascists

Because they are working so hard to strip our liberties away. Because they put my fingers by proxy on torture. Because they are supposed to be "us" and they have nothing but disdain for us and for real democracy.

But the terror threat is real. And the odds of dying in a terror attack in America are still infinitesimally low. BUT I used to love to fly. 9/11 took away my skies. I want the nightmare to end. I doubt I will ever fly again without fear of being blown up. I love to travel. I don't want to be a target of hatred for the world. So for those that love to travel, I think it means more than those that never go any place. What happened on the London tube and bus was real. I want to go to London again. I want to go to New York again. But I won't until our fascists are gone. They are making me less safe. They aren't solving anything.

[AntiFascist]

30. Good point, all right-wing fascism is joined at the hip.....

at some point. Identifying "Islamic Fascism" seems like a counter-intelligence type of tactic leading us all down the wrong garden path.

[KingFlorez]

31. The Neocons of course

Just for the simple fact the control everything and it's hard to get rid of them. Terrorists are easier to get rid of than a group of people heavily entrenched in a country's government.

[WiseButAngrySara]

36. Who created the terrorists? The U.S. and Israel. End of story. n/t

[Spinoza]

37. I guess that depends

whether or not, and how often, you fly on airplanes.

[warrens]

38. Amusing...a fascist calling someone else a fascist

These thugs who stole our country and are dismantling our constitution are a lot scarier than a few malcontents blowing up buildings.

Seriously, I know it was traumatic, but it was 3,000 people. Iraq loses that many every month, minimum. We turned into a nation of whiney-babies looking for some big tough macho guy to go kick some ass for us. Since all we had was a worthless little punk from Connecticut at the time, we got a PR version, who is fucking everything up. The long-term effect, since the simpleton couldn't even crush a little band of Al Qaeda when he had the chance, is that we were made to look stupid and vicious, not sympathetic.

We had a chance to rally the world and Smirk pissed it away over who got oil rights in a country that had nothing to do with terrorism.

[Philosoraptor]

41. Every sin we accuse THEM of we are guilty of too, tenfold.

In every speech bush reads he talks about how the ENEMY tortures, kills innocents, etc., all the while doing it like ROME.

[meldroc]

45. The neo-cons by a wide margin.

Granted, the Islamic fascists are out there, but quite frankly, my locale isn't on their target list. They would be far more likely to hit a high-profile target somewhere like New York City or Washington DC than somewhere in Colorado. I'm more likely to be struck by lightning than to become the victim of a terrorist attack, and far, far more likely to die from more mundane causes such as an auto accident or a heart attack.

The neo-cons, OTOH are using the irrational fear of terrorism to fuel hatred & bigotry, and I'm seeing the effects on our society every day. If we don't stop them, we'll lose our democracy, and it may take decades before facism loses its hold on our country.

[leesa]

54. Neocons want to take over the world. I've never heard of an Islamic

group with that goal. They almost always want to retaliate for some past event. Neocons are MAKING the events. Be far more afraid of the Neocons.

[Xenotime]

55. How about facist republicons?

Fear those people.

[bridgit]

59. all fascists of every kind...