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G2099 Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:36 AM
Original message
Bush and Condi clash over Israel; president overrules her . . .
. . . for the first time.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has become increasingly dismayed over President Bush's support for Israel to continue its war with Hezbollah.


"For the last 18 months, Condi was given nearly carte blanche in setting foreign policy guidelines," a senior government source familiar with the issue said. "All of a sudden, the president has a different opinion and he wants the last word."

Ms. Rice believes the United States should engage Iran and Syria to pressure Hezbollah to end the war with Israel. Ms. Rice has argued that such an effort would result in a U.S. dialogue with Damascus and Tehran on Middle East stability.

http://www.insightmag.com/Media/MediaManager/Condi4.htm
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. If this is true,
Then I just developed an ever-so-slight modicum of respect for Ms. Rice.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. More BS.
Someone's trying to salvage Condi as the next R presidential candidate. She's been too closely tied to * and his policies. A little separation is needed.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. I disagree.
Rice is truly an expert in foreign relations and foreign policy, and Bush is a hard-headed bumbler. Bush's Middle East policy right now is "Let it burn." Not exactly anything resembling diplomacy. He's screwing up any chance of getting a negotiated peace until all of Beirut is in flames.

Rice, by the way, will never be nominated by the GOP and is likely unelectable even if the impossible happens.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. "Rice is truly an expert in foreign relations and foreign policy"...
yeah in the COLD WAR ERA. BFD.

p.s. She is as fluent in Russian as I am.

GLASNOST!
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Cold War era? She didn't get out of school until 1981.
She cut her teeth under Bush 41. No, she is truly an expert on the goings on in the Middle East.

Is it your impression that Bush is the expert?
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. She studies the NOW DISMANTLED Soviet Union.
She doesn't know SH!T about the ME from her results so far.

Good luck showing us the light about her, though. Lol
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. LOL-don't knock Condi-she can tapdance and play the violin
:rofl:

or something like that....I will give them this...she is more talented than Bush..But then who isn't?
My 5 yo niece knows more about foreign policy than Bush does....



I don't know how Ms. "I believe it said Bin Laden determined to attack within the States" continues to poll so well with the general public :eyes:

The way she blinks when she is trying to bullshit her way out of a tough question reminds me of the way some of my students blink during viva voce when they are not well prepared.... :eyes:
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I share much of your ire for Rice.
She was partly in charge of keeping track of terrorist threats and blew it. And then tried to cover her ass. However, the entire Bush administration was concerned with other things and had pushed terrorism to the back burner (at best).

I dislike her policies and I don't like her style. However, that doesn't make her an idiot.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. I see your point...
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 12:45 PM by nam78_two
But I still am not quite sure...
Incompetent or merely corrupt...either way I hate the idea that national security is in the hands of these clowns...
I wish someone who knew what they were doing was in charge :-/

God I can't wait for the dems to come back into power in November and then in 2008 :-/
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. Incompetent versus corrupt. Not much of a choice.
However, in Dr. Rice's case, I'm convinced it is more of the latter than the former.

(Thanks for the interesting post. Much appreciated.)
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Thanks to you too-appreciate your view too :)/nt
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Rice is an expert on the Soviet Union, and it doesn't exist anymore.
I think she has been out of her element from day one in her job. Even when she was National Security Advisor, she was a day late and a dollar short. If she had thorough knowledge of ME problems and gumption, she should stand up and risked being fired to save the nation the pain.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Agree with you about half way
Rice was playing Bush's gopher before becoming Secretary of State. Now she's in her element.

I cannot believe that you think that her knowledge of the Soviet Union somehow elimates the possibility of learning other things.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. If Rice was truly the expert in this instance
A principled person wouldn't concede the policy to the neophyte who doesn't know what he's doing. Or if the neophyte forced the issue, a principled, knowledgeable person would resign rather than doing something she knew was wrong and that would create unnecessary havoc and bloodshed.

I note, for the record, that Dr. Rice remains the Secretary of State in the Bush administration.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. That neophyte happens to be her boss, the most powerful man on the planet
She advises, he decides. He's the decider, remember?
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Heck, I'm just a lowly secretary
But I've told my bosses that I won't aid and abet them in making a colossal mistake, and squandering outrageous sums of money and massive bloodshed weren't involved. I would think someone with the alleged brains of Dr. Rice in a position of such importance would, if she had principles, resign rather than pursue what she knew would be a catastrophic course.

I hate thinking that I'm more principled than the Secretary of State, but the conclusion seems inescapable. Or maybe she figures she'll be able to justify herself years down the road in her memoirs once the blood is dried and the graves her policies filled are forgotten.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Hell, I had a CLIENT call my Pres once to tell her she was "Fucking crazy"
It worked. Gotta use your noggin.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. So you quit your job every time you disagree with your boss?
Rice at least is trying to reverse Bush's policy. If she resigned over this, do you think Bush would replace her with a stronger, more rational person? Or, would the new Secretary of State be even a bigger doormat?

I don't like her, and I think she should have pushed him earlier. But at least she's pushing.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Only black and white in your world?
I don't see Rice pushing anything. Your thesis is that she's the smart, perceptive Secretary of State; my thesis is she's the in-over-her-head ditz who doesn't know any better. I don't see any evidence that Rice has reined in the Bush administration's worst impulses at all, that she has any more clue about what to do than the man in the moon. What I'm saying is that if what you say is true, that Rice has superior knowledge and experience, then we ought to see some kind of difference in the way the Bush administration deals with international problems. I don't see anything of the sort, and I don't see the intelligent, principled Dr. Rice resigning or threatening to resign, or exhibiting any discomfort whatsoever with a course of action you assert she knows to be wrong.

Your thesis also propounds that the Secretary of State of the United States is somehow unable or ineffectual in making any changes because her boss is the decider. I merely asserted from my own working experience that even a lowly secretary can effect a change of course when the boss is making a colossal mistake. And you conflate that into quitting every time I disagree with the boss? Are there any shades of gray at all in your world, or is it just a succession of blacks and whites with no discernable pattern or logic?
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Hoping4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. Gimme a break. If she's such an expert why is US foreign policy in the
toilet?
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. It's in the toilet because it's bad policy.
No question, Rice has been in the middle of a lot of bad plans. In this particular instance, however, she seems to be on the right track.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. Wait a minute- isn't that exactly what *Bush* was saying to Blair
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 11:43 AM by Marr
at that recent conference when he didn't know his mic was on?

Well- actually he said something like 'this whole thing can end if...' and then described that plan. So he wants a continued war/occupation of southern Lebanon?

Eh- this seems like something meant for foreign public consumption.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. Catfight!! n/t
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Pepper32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
5. Hmm, say it's not so...
Trouble in paradise?

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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
6. Don't believe it for a second..more theatrics
Anyone associated with this train wreck of an administration, that thinks they have a political future is distancing themselves from Mr.Lame Duck....

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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Exactly. This is dis-information suggesting a "fair & balanced" policy.
This is laughable.
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jpkenny Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. Is the Israeli barbarism getting to be too much for even Condi?
she had better watch out. She will be bucking up against some pretty powerful neocons.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. The clueless monkey or the vampire cheney
"overrules her"?
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
10. That wold put him on top for now (figuratively speaking, of course). (eom)
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FreeStateDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
20. Just a love spat, time for make-up sex. Now that thought is disgusting!
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. ugh
almost lost my lunch....
Damn you FreeStateDemocrat ;)
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
21. And so the media wants us to be impressed by this?
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
22. Good cop bad cop
:eyes:


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Hoping4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Right you are. Just two sides of the same coin. nt
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Hey!
:hi:

I see you are from Canada and like biking (cycling?). Have you ever heard of the Canadian product called BionX? If so, what do you think about it?

http://www.bionx.ca/index.php?id=main&module=default&pa...

I was thinking about purchasing it... when the prices go down. I am very short of cash right now since hurricane Katrina damaged my car and my house.
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Hoping4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Its expensive. It might be better to get a used Vespa.
Hope life gets bettter. You guys got it rough.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
33. If Bush doesn't budge, then Condi needs to resign. n/t
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
36. Somehow I can't believe Bush is even aware of this,
considering his little podium appearance today. So whom is Condi crossing swords with?
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evox Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
38. I don't buy that crap
If it was someone else, maybe.. but not Condi.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
39. if this was true then she should resign, or else she is no better than
if she was doing her own thing. maybe even worse since she sees the wrong but goes along with it.
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