What has happened to DU?

[msmcghee]

Lately I've really started to wonder if people here at DU share the same values and love of America that I do and want to make it better by getting rid of this current neo-con regime - or if DU represents the blame-America-first mentality that I dismissed all these years.

In the short span of two weeks, based on many hundreds of posts, I have come to believe that many at DU,

a) . . believe that the world would be better off if the Jews were driven out of Israel - in either some modern diaspora or perhaps a final final solution.

b) . . believe that Israel has no right to exists. That ME terrorists are justified and have every right to attack Israel and indiscriminately kill civilians and get on with that project - and that the US should get out of the way.

c) . . believe that bad economic news for the US is good for us - because we can blame it on Bush.

d) . . believe that all American military personnel are fascist thugs and deserve no respect from us.

e) . . believe that every terror plot is a PR trick by the Bush admin to help his ratings.

I could go on and on, but while I want nothing more than to see Dems back in control, I don't believe any of these things. And I never did. It seems to me that DU has changed. There were always those here who had those ideas but it was possible to discuss the pros and cons without so much venom and hate.

There also seems to be a bevy of new members, with low post counts and hidden profiles, who make statements very similar to those I heard from white supremacists in N. Idaho when I lived there. These are usually easy to discredit - but many DU members welcome these newbies with open arms as part of the DU family and heap praise on their perceptive intellect. That, to me is very scary.

In fact, posts like those make me worry that if DU represents the new left now - I think most American voters would rather have another Republican in the Whitehouse, even after the disaster of Bush II, than have America run by anyone with these kinds of irrational and un-American worldviews. I would seriously consider joining them.

In other words, it seems to me that the left is no longer the non-ideological problem solvers - but have morphed into a mirror image of the ugly right, totally committed to the ideological destruction of anything that is associated with our enemies - even if it's good for the country and our approach could be bad for the country.

You tell me. Am I the one out of place here or am I just misreading things?

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. There are 90,000 people here

You are misreading.

[MercutioATC]

2. I think those are minority views here...

Vocal at times, maybe, but not shared by most.

[Jacobin]

3. Oh, and our foreign policy is so benevolent

that there is no one in the world who would like to do us harm.

I just LOVE that one.

[SammyWinstonJack]

11. I really don't think that is the general consensus here, quite the

contrary in fact. Or were you being sarcastic?

[Jacobin]

From reading the posts here today

I feel like I'm surrounded but people with an enormous disconnect. While it is true that for four years BushCo MADE UP idiotic terralerts for political reasons (and that is beyond any dispute), it is also quite clear to me that there are sufficient numbers of muslims who are enraged enough at the US/Israel pact, the occupation of Iraq and the evisceration of Lebanon to be motivated to retaliate against the US by blowing up planes.

Pretending that this is all some ploy to distract citizens from Ned Lamont's victory is prepubescent idiocy.

I'm disgusted by DU today, utterly.

[sgxnk]

38. exactly

golf clap

[sufrommich]

4. I agree

with every word you wrote.Wish I could say it as well as you did.

[stepnw1f]

5. I Don't See Any of That

and no... nobody can tell you what to believe after reading hundreds of posts. You made up your mind and accused DUers of some serious charges. You back it up....

[Midlodemocrat]

6. Extremists exist everywhere and we all know that.

I think a lot of what you are seeing, and BTW, I have been seeing it as well, is exhaustion over the Bush regime and the destruction heaped upon this world by them.

I don't discount terrorism, but I despise being held hostage by their greed and evil motives. I despise the fact that the BFREE has no remorse at all over the deaths in Iraq, nor the soldiers whose lives are forever ruined by what they seen, nor the fact that the killing between the Israelis and Hezbollah must stop now, but they refuse to intervene. It wears on me and makes me want to blame them for everything, including my son's broken foot and my husband's quadruple bypass. (kidding)

[mike_c]

7. this seems to be something of a theme for you....

When did you ever get the impression that the left is "non-ideological?"

[Atman]

8. Yes, all DUers believe the exact same thing

And we take responsibility for the content of each others' posts.

Except me, I guess, because I don't agree with a single one of the five points you say have pervaded the place.

All you idea are belong to us!

[Cerridwen]

9. I think we are witnessing in the microcosm what has happened

in the macrocosm, i.e., a vocal and belligerent minority has pushed itself to the forefront and appears to speak for the majority. A bit of the squeaky wheel meets propaganda.

[kentuck]

10. I think people are reacting to something they sense is very very wrong..

And they know the "Lieberman" strategy is not the one to take. Something is wrong at the highest levels. We cannot continue to support them. That is what people know. They just haven't figured out how to get rid of them yet. However, Ned Lamont is on the right track.

[Virginia Dare]

12. A better question...

what has happened to our country, and our world at large to make people think such things. By the way, I think you are seriously misreading alot of those things, because I sure haven't seen them.

[buff2]

13. That is so ridiculous

I'd have to see the posts........everyone of them,so prove it. You could at least have them posted to back up your insane accusations. Geez.

[sgxnk]

14. good post

there are just as many (imo) loons and anti-american dorks in the far left as the far right

that much is a given

and the same absurd rhetoric, too

there are lots of good people here

there are also people, that if and when somebody makes a reasoned post like this, will automatically assume you are a rovian shillbot

it's incredibly ironic how much these people are exact images of the people on the right that they lambaste

narrowminded extremist loons are the same person, no matter the ideology. cognitive dissoance, ad hominems, paranoia, etc. know them by these signs

they are the great keepers of the truth (tm)

lol

[zanne]

15. Link, please....

Please provide a link of someone in DU saying that Israel doesn't have the right to exist, or that the Jews should be driven out of Israel. Your post is very emotional and not much on specifics.

[charlie]

16. You see what you want to see

I think most American voters would rather have another Republican in the Whitehouse, even after the disaster of Bush II, than have America run by anyone with these kinds of irrational and un-American worldviews. I would seriously consider joining them.

Is this your windup for the tired old My Party Left Me and That's Why I'm a Republican speech?

[Kingshakabobo]

17. The "blame DU first crowd." nt

[Connie_Corleone]

18. Thanks for generalizing 90,000 people.

There is a very vocal minority that might post stuff like that, the majority here are not like that.

[The Straight Story]

24. Hell we generalize millions on here daily

'christians' this, voters that, israel is x, and so on and so forth.

[Strelnikov_]

19. Many? Kinda Paintin' With A Broad Brush There

Like any internet forum, you have to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

[Swamp Rat]

29. Help! Somebody get paint thinner! I've been painted with a broad brush

and I have paint in my eyes!

[AndyA]

20. I think there are lots of different ideas floating around DU.

The only advice I can offer is to try to read with an open mind. Even when I don't agree with someone, I often learn something from them. So, overall it's a good thing.

Ultimately, I think the entire world is going to have to get back to basics. We are running out of clean air and clean water. We are running out of oil. We have a warming problem. The weather is becoming more severe. We have horrible diseases killing people. Some species of life placed here on Earth are becoming extinct, and there is a reason it was put here in the first place.

We are never all going to agree on everything, but we must look at the big picture. We all have planet Earth in common, and if Mother Nature implodes on us, it won't matter who has nuclear weapons, who has the oil, who has the money, etc. None of that will matter anymore.

That is what we need to focus on. We cannot continue the way we have been, the warning signs have already started to appear, and we must not ignore them.

[Skinner]

21. Someone on DU said...

...that the world would be better off if the Jews were driven out of Israel - in either some modern diaspora or perhaps a final final solution?

Please find that post and click the alert link on it so the moderators can ban the individual responsible immediately. Thanks.

And while you're at it, please alert the posts which say that mideast terrorists are justified and have every right to attack Israel and indiscriminitely kill civillians. And also the one where American military personnnel are fascist thugs and deserve no respect from us. And the one about bad economic news being good for us.

Thanks.

[TahitiNut]

32. Thanks, Skinner.

I'm here daily and I've NEVER seen such an opinion expressed. I've seen MANY posts painting others with this opinion and MANY posts that claimed someone who was critical of the IDF was being antisemitic. (I've alerted whenever appropriate.)

I find these repeated (vigilantism?) smears of the DU membership as noxious as hell. Why can't people discuss the message without attacking the messenger, even obliquely? What's so difficult about making a rational case?

Disgusting.

[msmcghee]

I was not referring to specific posts.

I have seen many of those posts and they were deleted. That's good. But the same posters come back with posts that don't quite say that. And its easy to read between the lines after you read enough posts by one person - to know how they truly feel - even if they can't openly say it.

What I said was that "In the short span of two weeks, based on many hundreds of posts, I have come to believe that many at DU believe that . . "

. . and I listed my points.

And that is the point I was trying to make. That it's likely that others who read these posts could come to the same conclusion - and that could be bad for Dems if they did.

Or, that maybe I am just misreading things - which may be the case. I wanted to get others' opinions about this. That's why I wrote this post.

[Skinner]

54. Oh.

I foolishly jumped to the conclusion that people had actually posted these things on DU. My mistake.

[msmcghee]

57. No offense taken. n/t

[LostinVA]

44. THANK you, Skinner

[KoKo]

55. Thanks Skinner...good to have that verified by the boss

because we who've been around here awhile know that any post saying what the OP says we say would be zapped by the mods.

[Ravenseye]

You're misreading things

I've read plenty of things by people without donor stars and/or low post counts and/or disabled profiles that disgusted me for one reason or another. I just ignore them, or if the post is particularly bad I alert on it.

Plenty of trolls and racists abound on all sides, whether they're pro-israel, pro-lebanon, pro-terrorist, pro-arab, pro-environment, pro-green, pro-peta, pro-carnivores, pro-life, pro-death, pro-war, pro-lieberman, pro-lamont, etc, etc, etc.

I disagree with some of your statements, and I think that if you want to enter any discussion about Israel you need to done a flame proof suit on either side, because people are really emotional about that issue rather than logical.

[Swamp Rat]

22. I disagree 100% with everything you say.

You asked me to tell you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Me too

[Swamp Rat]

46. Oi!

Got paint thinner? See post #29.

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. So are you the wheat or the chaff?

[LostinVA]

48. I think pretty everyone but trolls and a few members disagree

with this stuff...

NICE broadbrushing...

[Swamp Rat]

52. "Got Turpentine?"

[Kajsa]

23. I agree with you.

however, not everyone on DU feels this way.

e. is the one that's really getting to me.

Yeah, I know the BA has timed press releases of terra alerts
but NOT EVERY DAMN TERRORIST ALERT IS A BA PLOY !

If you say it is, tell that to the families of the victims who were blown up
in the subway/bus in London last year.

Tell that to the families of the victims of the Madrid bombings.
There are many more examples.

These are real events, with real people dying as a result.

Thanks for letting me vent.

btw, Thanks for posting this.

[Marr]

25. *Yawn*

So DU is full of "blame America first", paranoid anti-semites. Gotcha.

[greguganus]

49. self delete n/t

[MadHound]

26. I think that you are misreading, or misinterpreting a lot of posts

I've yet to see a post about the Lebanon/Israel conflict advocating the destruction of Israel, or the Jewish people. In fact, despite many claims to the contrary, I've seen only a handful of genuinely anti-Semetic posts, and those have been banned almost immediately.

As for as economic news goes, well yes, we blame it on Bush, since he and his cronies are not only the ones who got us into this mess, and who are also profiting from it. And all of posts I've seen on bad economic data aren't gloating because it reflects badly on Bush. Instead they're worried, nervous, in despair about how they or those that they know and love are going to get through these tough times when the economy is going to hell.

And yes, I've seen posts condemning our troops as fascist thugs, but only when they're doing things that make them look like fascist thugs, you know, raping children, killing unarmed innocents, looting residences, etc. There are also many posts that I've seen which praise their service, mourn their death, are pissed about the position they've been put in by Bushco, and most of all, wanting to bring them home ASAP.

And quite frankly, the reason that you're seeing people doubting this "liquid bomb" story is because the terror button has been pushed too many times before. Much like those who have heard the boy cry wolf too many times, we are supremely skeptic about these current claims. Now if they could show us some real, solid proof, that would convince many here. But until then, I and many others are going to remain quite skeptical about this current cry, because we've been burned too many times before.

Like I said earlier, I think that you are either misreading, or misinterpreting many posts.

[CJCRANE]

27. There's always been

a few far-left people* on DU, that's what gives it its edge, but they're by no means the majority.

Also remember that DU is an internet forum open to anyone in the world and is anonymous.

On edit: *mopaul was my fave, he seems to have burnt out and left DU, I wonder what happened to him?

[mccoyn]

28. The only reason I read DU any more is for the good conspriacy stories.

I love a good conspriacy story and DU is good and making them up every day. I do find some interesting conversation going on in the topic forums and groups. Less people, less noise, more thought.

[Beelzebud]

30. What has happend? 6 years of Bush.... That's what happened...

Enjoying the Neo-Conservative dream yet?

[KyndCulture]

31. Way to stereotype 90,000 members.

I disagree with everything you just said.

[LordLovesAWorkingMan]

34. I timidly agree with you

And I say "timidly" because anyone with fewer than 1000 posts who goes against the tide usually gets beat on. But I've been reading DU for years, and I'm in most violent agreement with your (e). I refuse to believe that every single terror threat that ever gets mentioned and every plot that ever gets thwarted is fiction. There are countries full of people who have been screaming "Death to America" for DECADES.

Just because Bush would cynically use an attack for his own ends doesn't mean an attack isn't possible or even imminent.

[sgxnk]

50. if there wasn't metric a**loads of evidence

would people believe a few years ago that these loons would riot and murder over

CARTOONS?!?>!?!?!

or even stranger, that our state dept. would, to some extent, criticize the cartoonists moreso than the rioters!?!?!?!

it's a pretty twisted world. but i have little doubt this terrorist plot in the UK is bona fide, and i find it absurd (and amazingly egotistical) the people who think the entire edifice of UK law enforcement is being manipulated to get back at ned lamont for winning a democratic primary

that is truly incredible

[azurnoir]

35. A and B

are claims of Israel supporters who are so it's them or us that they simply can not see a grey area, or wish to keep all opposition so busy defending themselves against the same BS that the discussion never goes any further, a well known repuke tactic. It has also unfortunately led to a self censoring of anyone with views that don't fit theirs because once those kind of claims start being posted along with the inevitable anti-semitism claim the thread will get locked.

[porphyrian]

36. It's been almost two weeks since the last "what's happening..."

"...to DU?" post. I was starting to worry.

[Bridget Burke]

45. When's the next "I'm leaving DU forever" post? n/t

[warrens]

37. More than a little truth there

I'm getting really sick of some of the hysterical topics here. It's not all that much better on LBN. Not everything that happens in the world is a plot to screw liberals. Just because we have a fascist regime here does not mean that extremists are not out to get us; both can be true simultaneously. The silliest thing I've seen is that this is a plot to keep Ned off the front page.

I haven't personally seen anyone suggest Israel should be wiped out, though. I may have missed it, but most people think Israel should just stop killing civilians and obey UN directives.

[LostinVA]

39. Your A and B are definitely not true

And posting such is actually now against GD rules...

[Bridget Burke]

40. Yup, all us Leftists always Blame America First.

You fail to give any evidence for your observations.

I'm glad to see new DU'ers. But a few of them DO have hidden profiles & not-so-hidden agendas. Most of these creeps don't last long. However, the white supremacists have been scarce since THE IMMIGRATION CRISIS suddenly stopped being a crisis. Today's suspect newbies generally tell us what we need to stop doing so "we" can regain power. They blame The Loony Left. Sound familiar?

Anyone who would "seriously" prefer another Republican president was never a very good Democrat in the first place.

[leesa]

41. I guess misreading things? Or maybe out of place if you need to

spin things a certain way to satisfy personal needs.

[reichstag911]

42. That's absurd.

a) Most (with any knowledge of ME history - read Robert Fisk's The Great War for Civilisation for a start) would argue, I think, that they should abandon their illegal settlements and be driven out of the West Bank and Gaza to their pre-1967 borders;

b) The body counts are much higher when the Israelis man the triggers, and why is it that the European powers were able to dispossess a population that had lived in Palestine for centuries? What happened to the original post-WWI two-state promises?

c) We appreciate (not enjoy) seeing bad economic news because it's a rare description of the real consequences of this misadministration's policies;

d) Abu Ghraib, Haditha, Guantanamo, Bagram, Kent State, My Lai, etc., etc., etc.;

e) Even Bush's Homeland Security secretary, Tom Ridge, upon leaving office, stated that the threat levels had regularly had been elevated for political purposes.

[im10ashus]

If I may?

a) . . I don't believe that the world would be better off if the Jews were driven out of Israel.

b) . . I believe that Israel has a right to exist. I don't believe that ME terrorists are justified and have every right to attack Israel and indiscriminately kill civilians and get on with that project - and that the US should get out of the way.

c) . . I don't believe that bad economic news for the US is good for us - but we CAN blame it on Bush. He is the president after all.

d) . . I don't believe that all American military personnel are fascist thugs and deserve no respect from us. I was in the Army. Served proudly.

e) . . I don't believe that every terror plot is a PR trick by the Bush admin to help his ratings. I just suspect the timing of the release of information.

[atreides1]

43. My Take

a) . . believe that the world would be better off if the Jews were driven out of Israel - in either some modern diaspora or perhaps a final final solution.

I think you may be misreading.


b) . . believe that Israel has no right to exists. That ME terrorists are justified and have every right to attack Israel and indiscriminately kill civilians and get on with that project - and that the US should get out of the way.


Israel does have the right to exist, but it doesn't have the right to hit civilian targets with little excuses like "we dropped leaflets". Neither Hezbollah or Hamas are guiltless in the current
situation, and need to adopt a policy of live and let live.

But the underlying causes have been ignored for decades, and need to be addressed by all parties involved with the assistance of the International community.


c) . . believe that bad economic news for the US is good for us - because we can blame it on Bush.


A bad economy is bad for all Americans, but we have to make sure that people understand that the economy is the way it is because of this administrations policies.


d) . . believe that all American military personnel are fascist thugs and deserve no respect from us.

This isn't true, but we must not try to throw a blanket over the crimes that have been committed by putting the blame on the Bush administration, if military personnel are tried and found guilty of these crimes then the punishment should be as severe as the crime itself

e) . . believe that every terror plot is a PR trick by the Bush admin to help his ratings.

As for this, well look at the track record so far. Lamont beat Lieberman, Labor party members wanted
to recall Parliament to discuss the situation in Lebanon, all of a sudden there's a terrorist plot
that was under investigation.

By the way what did happen to those men down in Miami?

PS:

I noticed you had very little to say about the civilian casualties being inflicted in Lebanon?

[Snivi Yllom]

47. thank you for shining the light where it's needed most

kick

[LiberalEsto]

51. What I believe...

and I've been posting here for 2 or 3 years...

I believe American soldiers (and reservists and members of the National Guard) should not be deployed in Iraq. They should be properly equipped at all times, and given decent medical care and veteran benefits. The recruiters should stop dragging in mentally unsound people. Rumsfeld should be fired, and tried as an international war criminal for allowing, if not actively encouraging, gross violations of the Geneva conventions and basic human rights.

Israel has a right to exist. It should stop its belligerent overkill tactics and the killing of peaceful protesters with bulldozers, and the slaughtering of Palestinians and Lebanese civilians. The U.S. must stop subsidizing Israel's government, but reward serious efforts toward peace, negotiation, and improved relations with its neighbors.

I believe that bad economic news is the result of extremely bad Misadministration policies that blatantly favor the wealthy, help destroy the middle class, and worsen the conditions of the poor.

I believe that the Misadministration has manipulated terror warnings for political purposes any number of times. I am not qualified to be able to tell which situations are genuine. They have turned this into a "boy who cried wolf" situation. I believe the Homeland Security Department is a gigantic boondoggle that doles out rewards for political cronies, and recklessly squanders taxpayers' money.

I also strongly suspect there may have been some U.S. complicity in regards to the 9/11 attacks, and hope this eventually comes to light. If it turns out to be true, those responsible should be tried for mass murder and treason.

hope this helps...

[Horse with no Name]

53. Personally, there was a time when I might have "blamed"

the Israeli people or the Palestinian people, etc, but after my experience with Bushco and knowing that there is NOTHING that they do that I support, and no matter what I do, they are still supporting regime changes and killing in countries that I object to.
I would like to think that people on both sides of this Middeast crisis feel the same way that I do. They want their kids to grow up. They want their families safe. They don't support the policies of their government anymore than we support the policies of ours and they are just as helpless to fix it as we are.
It is not semite or anti-semite...what is being done is ONE GOVERNMENT committing atrocities in their citizens names. I can relate 100% because our government is doing exactly the same.
Our entire lives have been insulated from terrorism. But think about this for a minute. We have had ONE major terrorist attack on our soil. How many people joined the service after that? It created a nationalism of epic proportions on our soil.
So now multiply that attack and pretend that weekly or even daily--you were exposed to terrorist attacks on your soil.
Do you think if the US had that...that there would even be a shortage of soldiers?
I have stayed out of this debate for this very reason.
I have met Israeli's that live over here. They are not terrible people.
I have met Lebanese that live over here. Neither are they.
However, in their homeland, they are at the mercy of their governments and the corruption of those governments, but I would like to think that underneath that, they are people just like we are.

[demgurl]

56. When you have a memership over 90,000 strong....

there will be some very broad views on items but we are the party of tolerance.

We also have many members who just have bad days and spout things we do not mean. A while back I posted how I passed a broken down car because it had a * sicker on it. A lot of people blew that one way out of proportion. It was all over the net and Rush Limpballs even changed the story, to make me look worse, and told his audience about it. The reason I posted was because I felt so terrible about what happened. I spent months and months doing my own sort of karmic penance. These days I do not pass a single car and to date I have offered help to maybe 15-20 stranded motorists since that happened. So I guess what I am saying is sometimes we all have bad days and we do or say things that we do not mean.

Sometimes we even change our minds with our experiences and education. I was once pro-death penalty. I am not any more. I have always been a liberal but that was one thing that set me apart. I have grown and as I have, my opinions have as well.

There are also people who troll here and they have been known to throw out a line or two to stir thing up as much as possible.

And, yes, some people do believe some things such as * could be behind terror news. As I tell my children, trust must be earned and will not be fully given without earning it. With the number of lies * has told, we would be stupid to not at least examine items when they come up.

The old head of Homeland Security said he had to fight the administration because they would often want to raise alerts of terror when there was no cause to. If that were not enough, the last real raise of the terror level happened right before the Presidential election. That makes everything very suspect.

Perhaps when people question if * is behind something, you are seeing it as a truth they are pointing out instead of the person trying to get opinions because the cabal can not be trusted. It is our patriotic duty to question our government.

I have never seen any posts saying ALL military personal are fascists and deserve no respect. In fact, I have only seen my fellow DUers say they want to really support the troops by doing real things to protect them and bring them home. I am sure posts talking about supporting ALL of the troops way outnumber posts saying we must condemn ALL of them. I believe the ones people want to condemn are the ones breaking the law and I doubt anyone would argue that if someone breaks the law that they should be set free.

There are many forums with a lot of positive people at DU. If one is getting to you maybe you may want to check out some of the others or maybe even take a break in the lounge for a while. You may look around and see that we are not all that different after all.

[PA Democrat]

58. I think you are misreading things.

Sometimes people look for intentions in others' posts that just aren't there.

[Skinner]

60. Locking

Since the OP has made clear that this was not actually referring to specific posts, I think this is divisive and unnecessary.

And remember: If someone were to post such things, please click the alert link so the moderators can deal with it.