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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 10:59 PM
Original message
Poll question: Green Is The New Red
Red for Republican.

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. "Green" still has to be judged on a state-by-state basis.

The party is nowhere near the level of congealment where you can make a call on the character of the party as a whole. In fact, in some cases you can't even make the call for the whole state, and occassionally a candidate leverages his way in via celebrity appeal that really is out of step with even the leadership of the party, but run solely for the sake of state party recognition status.

For example, I happen to know that, at least back six or so years ago, the NY greens were a bunch of unmitigated slimeballs. That may have changed at this point. I've haven't heard any complaints about the MA greens, by contrast.

Green flamewars are a distraction we don't need. If we had combined party-line voting like they do in NY, even the worst of the worst greens would be much less underfoot of the Dems.

Not that it isn't perfectly right to point out when a local green chapter is being used by Republicans. Especially the sleaziest ones like Santorum.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Ok good, you'll do that for democrats and let us pick and choose
Ok we have Feingold and Kohl in Wisconsin and with Feingold pretty progressive we can say Wisconsin is all good for democrats. And Massachusetts you get a 1-2 bang with Kerry & Kennedy so those are good democrats to and we won't bitch about Massachusett democrats. Now we can be a little critical with California because we know Barbara Boxer is good, but we know Dianne Feinstein is bad. But then we can treat Connecticut dems as filth - Joe Lieberman, need I say more.

IT'S A PARTY you are judge by everyone. You have no right to pick and choose which are the 'good greens' and which are the bad ones we should just ignore but nevermind they were paid for by the republican party.

I am the party of Barbara Boxer and Russ FEingold and John Conyers and Joe Lieberman. I am the democratic party! And as the democratic party we'll fight for the elections to get rid of our baggage, but if somehow Lieberman ends up in DC as a democrat in 2007 guess what - he is still a part of our party.

If you don't like the Green flamewars then go to the Green Underground. We're here to elect Democrats and we want to make sure that every Pennsylvanian voter knows just how sleezy Rick Santorum and the Greens are
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Actually, I do. Not by state, but by candidate.
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 11:30 PM by skids
Not paying attention to where the hopping mad nutbags, or corporate elitists for that matter, are clustered is just an excercise in sticking one's head in the sand.

You seem to crave the simplicity of labels. If you want to grow as a person, I'd suggest addressing that problem.

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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Obviously you didn't get the analogy
This isn't about donations - this is about the fact that when you support a political party (and that's as basic as saying "I'm a Democrat" or "I'm a Green") you don't get to pick and choose which members of that party are the ones you'll take the criticism for and which ones you won't. I've taken heat on the Zells & Liebermans and host of other pretty bad democrats because I am a democrat and yes they are a part of my party. Greens don't get the rights to sweep a bad one under the rugs in hopes that no one will see the big lump there. They either need to say something about the corruption of that Candidate or he is a part of their system that puts a dark cloud over who they are
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. On the last part, we can agree...
It is not responsible for Greens to attack "The Democrats" nor for them to unconditionally support all Green candidates, including the boneheads.

Same goes for Democrats, names reversed.
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MODemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. LynneSin, you're exactly right
I'm a died in the wool Democrat, and not the least bit ashamed of being a Liberal. I will always support a democratic candidate, over any other. If my own Sons ran for President under the republican ticket,(I love them dearly), but they Would NOT get my vote. People really shouldn't be embarrased to admit what party they represent. However, I can understand how bad it must be to admit being republican
under the present administration, and with kooks like Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh spewing their ignorance 24/7. I definitely would not want to admit to being an Ann Coulter republican

I've been in politics most of my life, and what an older and wiser man said to a "voter" one time has stuck with me: My friend was campaigning for his favorite democratic candidates; when he tried to give the "voter" one of his cards, the "voter" declined and said "Oh, I always vote for the man, not the party."

To this response, my friend replied: "In other words, YOU'RE A REPUBLICAN."

I belive my older-wiser friend hit the nail right on the head. (Thank you Mr. Woodson and RIP)
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. The NYT's Thomas Friedman said that green is the new...
...red, white, and blue.

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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. And you think he was talking about the Green Party?
:wtf:
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I think he was referring to the idea that it's becoming...
"...patriotic" to demonstrate--or at least give voice to--concern for the environment.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I wasn't sure if you were aware of it. n/t
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
4. Boycott this poll.
Don't participate in this vote for intolerance, hyperbole, and overreaction.
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Thanks for the Kick!
:kick:
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Care for another?
I cannot believe that any Democrats would embrace the tactics of Newt Gingrich and Karl Rove.

And you wonder why the Greens have turned away...
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. The Green Party has become a tactic of Newt Gingrich and Karl Rove.
They love the Greens!

They are their tool.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Did you miss the sarcasm thingy?
Seriously, after what the "Greens" are doing in PA, you have to know that they are are simply a tool of the GOP there...I doubt that many will fall for it, but if PA has electronic voting, an "independent" option cold be used to cover another stolen election.

Let them build a national Party from the ground up. Focus on city/state elections. When you get an infrastructure, then you can play in the majors.

I don't get the whole Green message, anyway. I try to be environmentally aware in my own personal life...so why does that need to be something that requires a separate Party?
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. In Texas, Green is the new Invisible
They've hit the road for Nowheresville.
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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
11. Well, here in NM "red" and "green" refer to something entirely...
...different, and as yet the preference carries no political implications. Besides, there are enough people who demand "Christmas" (red AND green) to keep everyon on their toes.

capsically,
Bright Green
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. Green is my favorite color..
:bounce:


and it has nothing to do with politics. :)
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
18. I think people want to externalize blame that belongs to the Democratic...
...party, in part if not entirely. Had Gore and the Democratic party had refused to back down on the recount, would we be in the same position? If Kerry and the Democratic party had refused to back down on the 2004 theft, would we be in the same position? Had any Democrat stood up to these bastards earlier, would we be in the same position? Yes, elections are rigged. Yes, Nader did play some roll in the 2000 loss. Yes, the Green party has accepted some GOP money (which I think is hilarious, not devious, I'd take their fucking money, too). However, a good deal of blame for the failure of the Democrats in three consecutive elections lies firmly with the Democratic party, and pointing fingers at everyone else is doing nothing for our future success. We (yes, I'm a registered Democrat) need to acknowledge our failures, take responsibility for them, and fix them before it's too late to ever make a difference again.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. So Gore and Kerry....
should have sacificed their careers and their credibility at a time when 2/3 of the country didn't think it was possible for a presidential election to be stolen? At a time when there was no effective means to contest a presidential election?

I'm glad they decided not to do that, so they could stay alive for the long run and not be further swiftboated as sore losers. I think both of them knew they had been robbed but they also knew what a monumental job it will be to correct this antiquated dysfunctional election system, lately hijacked by Diebold. It will take a village. When the Dems have power again I DO expect them to fix the election system along with everything else. That will be the real test.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Absolutely. Truth trumps their careers.
And, had they done so, there would be far more support for them both today, even after whatever lambasting (which they received anyway) they would've gotten. That's what we elect them for, not to preserve their careers as politicians.

I agree that we need to fix the election system, regardless, and I also look forward to that happening if and when we regain Congress (if that isn't too late now).
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. "truth"
can be forever lost in the trampling of political enemies.

It is only now that the public is even beginning to accept the possibility of large-scale election fraud. Then (a hundred years ago in political time) the candidates would have seemed insane to have pushed it too far. I'm disappointed that they didn't, but it tells me more about the failure of the system than the character of the two candidates. After a gruelling campaign, being brutally swiftboated, then "losing" (when they know they didn't)--who would have the energy it takes to immediately confront the massive problems of the election system? Many high level Democrats were in complete denial then and still are--it is the Elephant in the Room.

To fix the election system was not Gore and Kerry's job...then. Let's hope it IS their job in the future. Kerry has indicated his support and Gore will too, given the chance. It is we the voters, the electorate, who are behind the 8-ball on this and need to "do something" now. We have put up with this for too long. I have worked in elections and I have seen the apathy and the lack of political will to deal with it. Only touchscreen fraud is new. The rest of the abuse of the system has been going on for a long, long time. It is pollyanna attitudes and too much "faith" (without knowledge) that is our downfall
in this, as "responsible" voting citizens. Our election system in America does not belong to we the people. This is not a true Democracy.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. It's ridiculous to give them a pass on this.
If you are the only person in the position to stop the fascist take-over of America, it is your fucking duty to do so, regardless of how many people call you insane or what happens to your career. This isn't something that no one knew about until now - we were screaming it before bush was ever sworn in. How many thousands of innocent lives have been lost as a direct result of their inaction at the crucial moment? Sorry, I call bullshit.

However, I agree that this is not a true Democracy, nor is it even a representative one at this point.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I dont give them a pass exactly
I said I am disappointed. But I don't think they did it differently than ANY other candidate would have.
The problem is the system, not so much the candidates. It was neither Gore nor Kerry's job to make themselves the #1 scapegoat on election reform. You can't ask people to put their heads on a chopping block for a cause that was already lost. They would have gotten tepid support at best just after the elections. Even around DU many people did not accept that election theft had occurred. I knew it had, because I have seen elections up close. But I also knew that Kerry especially would have been tarred and feathered by his own team. These days maybe it would have played out differently because atttitudes are changing as the Repugs agenda has been exposed. More people can now imagine that election theft is real. It's up to us to stay on this, but it's not realistic to blame it on "bad candidates" who didn't sacrifice themselves to a losing cause.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. "You can't ask people to put their heads on a chopping block for a..."
"...cause that was already lost."

That's where we disagree. That's exactly what they should've done. As I remember it, there were a number of us here at DU who did accept that election theft occurred, more than didn't, from appearances, but we were dismissed as "loony left" by the "moderates" whose brilliant strategies then lost us three successive elections. They were wrong, and I have no problem saying I told you so, nor do I have a problem holding them accountable for the consequences of their actions.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. OK
let us agree to disagree. Maybe I have a lower opinion of what such political candidates can actually do for us in general. But I certainly don't expect candidates to be superheroes, not in this vicious climate, esp where there is no mechanism for effectively contesting a presidential election. It is the election system and the media that failed us. I don't think there's a candidate running in America who would have done what you expected them to do, not without strong support from their own party. And Gore and Kerry didn't have it.

:) leaving it there....
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
25. dems are the new dinos
Edited on Fri Aug-04-06 01:53 PM by annces8



Guiding prophecy of the Waitaha people, a peace oriented shamanic culture in New Zealand.

Walk in the shadows, hide in the waters, move in the mists, step behind the rainbow to save the taonga (treasure). Protect our ancestors. Hold the truth close and warm it with brave hearts, for pain will consume the land and the circle of our dreams will be broken. And it will seem lost beyond recall. Kia Koha! Be Strong! And the day will come when the taonga will be revealed once more. And we will walk tall with the knowledge in the kete (woven basket) and find joy in the colours of the rainbow. And the fires of truth will burn into the hearts of all the people of the land. And they will find the trail of gentleness and peace. Kahuri te Aothe world turns. And the circle of our dream time takes a new shape for a new dawn. And the people of all colours join to bind what was broken and live in hope.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
27. Yes, Green IS the new Red...
As in Red Scare, Red Menace, Red Threat, Red Boogeyman, Red Blacklist, etc.

Gotta have an external threat in order to get the troops to circle the wagons, right? No matter HOW bad our leaders are, at least they're not Evil Reds!

"My Country (Party), Right or Wrong!" :eyes:
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