Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Should "Passion of the Christ" now be considered an anti-semitic movie?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:08 PM
Original message
Poll question: Should "Passion of the Christ" now be considered an anti-semitic movie?
There was a lot of criticism when it came out that the movie was Jew-bashing. Now that Mel Gibson has confirmed the rumors that he's anti-semitic (as well as a number of other shameful things), what to do with his movie? Could we go so far as to compare it to Nazi propaganda?

But that's not this poll's question. Is "Passion of the Christ" an anti-semitic movie?

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. having seen it, I say its not, unless you consider the new testament
anti-semitic, which certainly someone could I suppose.

I don't think it paints the pharisees in a good light, but if the new testament is remotely accurate, that would not be out of line. The pharisees had become sycophants to the romans and corrupt on their own. That does not mean jews as a group are, just the leaders at that time.

If the new testament is accurate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. But the movie was made by a guy who said that the "Jews
start all of the wars in the world." And it was provokingly violent.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. did you see it?
it WAS incredibly violent and its what I didn't like about it. However, I did not view it as antisemitic, as I explained.

that the producer is antisemitic, if true, did not seem to come across to me.
In fact, I recall that charges made of that were usually by people who have not seen the film.

Do I recommend the film? it was well acted and well made, but I felt it was too limited and creepily fascinated with torture.
I wouldn't recommend it for that reason. If he had toned down the torture, it might have been an excellent movie.

maybe I should ask if you've read the new testament? The movie, at least in regards to the pharisees, was pretty faithful to various gospels.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Yes. I saw it in the theater.
Against my then-girlfriend's protests.

It was pornography.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. But, it's based more on Dolorous Passion than the Gospels
And, the former is anti-semitic.... as are parts of the Pauline books.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. shrug...well, maybe I'm wrong.
I don't remember thinking it was antisemitic when I saw it. Have you seen it? what was your impression?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I did see it, and have studied the Dolorous Passion
Studied Koine Greek and thus have read and studied the NT in the Greek, had many comparative religion classes, taught catechism, and majored in history! Ithought that it was the most disgusting piece of anti-christian filth I had ever seen.... the whole point of Jesus' life and message and purpose (for a Christian) was turned into literal heresy. And, it stayed close to Emmerich's book, including blood libel, and was thus anti-semitic. Gibson also pick and chose the Gospels to get the most "gentile" reading of the story.

That's my opinion.

All of my very Catholic relatives either refused to see it or were disgusted and left.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
38. More anti-Jewish stuff in the Johannine than the Pauline books nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. It always was anti-semitic. The New Testament in most places
is anti-semitic. The "Passion Play" were one of the motive causes of pogroms during the Middle Ages...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
41. You're correct...often times the church would stage
the Passion Play to rile up the towns people and let them loose on the Jews, who were often segregated in one section of town. This was done during "Holy Week" in most cases.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. Can I vote "excruciatingly bad?" - n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. ditto/nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
godhatesrepublicans Donating Member (343 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yep, based on an anti-semitic book too
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. The Dolorous Passion? That's the primary source material for
the movie.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
godhatesrepublicans Donating Member (343 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
35. That's the one. Boring read IMHO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. I always considered it an antisemitic movie and fascist propaganda
Jeez, his NUMBER ONE source material wasn't the Gospels, it was Catherine Emmerlich's anti-semitic "meditations," including all the blood libel crap he kept in the movie. Lines spoken not subtitled... and, not even casting Jewish actors as Jesus, The Magdalene, The BVM, etc.

Ugh.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. So was Leon Uris' _Exodus_ (book and movie) anti-Palestinian?
The Palestinians were presented as "the enemy."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. To me, yes... I've been saying that for years
All of his books are very flawed that way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. It's Jew-bashing by definition
since Christ was Jewish.

But I don't suppose that's the way the question was meant.

For what it's worth, I did not see the movie because, I cannot stomach the idea of seeing anyone flogged, beaten or tortured.

It's just not my kind of entertainment.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. Part of what makes this movie
so clearly anti-Semitic is first the Gospel it is written around and then the fact that it concentrates only on the suffering allegedly caused to Jesus by Jews. Now I will admit that while I am neither a christian or an expert on christianity in general, it seems suspect to me that while illustrating Jesuses Crucifixion it stops there failing to include the "resurrection" which I am told is central theme to christianity. So if not rousing antisemitism just what was the point?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. FWIW, I have the same criticism of the movie, but the resurrection is
shown at the end, but its unsatisfying.
I would have rather seen his life, teachings, and resurrection than the passion, but its called the passion, so...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. OK to be honest I haven't
seen the, my mom-in-law (who is devoutly Lutheran) did, and I'm going by what she told me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #37
47. well, like I said the resurrection is in there, but its like don't blink
its the last several seconds of the movie, in the tomb, you see a figure rise up and you see light shining through the nail holes in his hand.

then the credits.


very unsatisfying for me, especially after having to wade through all that torture.
NOT the jesus movie I'd have made
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
13. Medieval passion plays are anti-semetic by design.
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 03:19 PM by Swamp Rat
Mel knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he (and likely his dad) came up with the idea.



------------------------------------------------------

Mel Gibsons Passion Play

Mr. Gibson has fashioned a blunt instrument of propaganda, edged with artistry, whose visceral power gives it the potential to become his most lethal weapon of all.

By Bruce Chilton
Bernard Iddings Bell Professor of Religion
Bard College
March 2004

(snip)

Medieval passion plays entertained their audiences and at the same time drew them into the sufferings of Christ. These efforts indulged flights of fancy and superstition, manufacturing perfidious Jews, assorted demons, buxom Magdalenes, gargoyle-faced demons, and the like, but they also offered vivid realizations of how Christ, by following the way of the cross, was transformed into his resurrected glory. The intent was to open the path of Christ to all believers.

(snip)

There are many more Jewish tormenters than in the Gospels. Satan weaves in and out of their midst as Jesus is betrayed, mocked, and denied. Satans hairless face and head somehow seemed familiar to me, but I could not quite place him at the beginning of the film. I lost my curiosity about that for a while, diverted by the baroque portrayal of the violence inflicted on Jesus by the high priest Caiaphas and his colleagues. They are all opulently but darkly dressed; their interior corruption is manifest. If we have any doubt about the moral standing of the high priesthood, one of Caiaphas colleagues wears an eye-patch. Pirates of the Caribbean meets Ben-Hur.

(snip)

As a passion play, this film is a hokey but reverent meditation on the death of Jesus. The music sustains the stately pace through what amounts to the Stations of the Cross that Cyril developed in Jerusalem and that Christians still use for devotion today. The score is derivative, sounding much like some of the work in Gladiator, but it comports well with the films tableaux and occasional bursts of violence and splattered blood. (Acting in this case requires no comment because there is no room for it in between static images and violent outbursts, most of which involve flaying latex skin.) More successfully, the camera work affects the aim of a passion play. We look on the action, appalled and uplifted by the various characters. The blind hatred of Caiaphas, the crazed disorientation of Judas, the mute betrayal of Peter, the dithering good will of Pilate, the magnificent loyalty of Jesus mother, the smoldering devotion of the Magdalene, the chaste quasi-conversion of Pilates wife, the sadistic pleasure of the Roman soldiers, the clueless cross-bearing of Simon of Cyrene: all reflect and heighten our own responses. We ask, as we should, where would we be and where are we in this action? As the films deliberate rhythm proceeds, Jesus himself looks up from his agonies to fix his gaze on the characters and on us so as to underline that question.

(snip)

Monty Python tried to be funny and succeeded because Brian was not about Jesus, but Brian. Putting this cockney hero into situations like those Jesus faced, under obviously phony historical circumstances, makes for brilliant parody. In Mr. Gibsons case, the parody is equally powerful, although unintentional. By mixing together the genre of the passion play with the pretension of historical accuracy, Gibson has inadvertently made his passion play into pious vaudeville. Claims that this film reflects the Gospels or history are cynical. Critics who treat it as a historical work have confused their profession with self-promotion. Were this film directed by Mel Brooks, we would have something to watch with pleasure. But Mr. Gibsons Passion is libelous farce, poor art, and an incentive for credulous viewers to confuse Christian faith with hatred. After I went home, I watched Die Hard with my younger son and felt morally restored.

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/Chilton_Passion.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
16. uh,,, it's the film version of a passion play...
Isn't that kind of like asking "isn't going around saying 'the Jews killed Jesus' antisemitic?"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. It was anti-Semitic when it was released and it's anti-Semitic now.
The latest frothing from Gibson changes nothing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LSparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. It was anti-Semitic and now we have the PROOF ...
Gibson could deny it all the way to the bank but I didn't buy it ... and now the world knows how he REALLY feels toward Jews.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Sadly, it will change nothing in the end.
We've even seen it here at DU. Those who want to see his movies will find a rationalization to do so, regardless of facts. There are just too many here and elsewhere who stand for all the right things - until it means actually standing up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
24. His drunken statements merely confirm the position presented in the movie.
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 04:02 PM by truebrit71
...and I'm not entirely convinced that the movie portrayal in that regards was that out of whack with what has been presented to as being the course of events...

The elders would have been portrayed that way if they were Buddhists or Vegans, the bottom line here is that they wanted Christ dead. End of story. Now if portraying the story of what supposedly happened makes it anti-semitic then fair enough, but if I were to have a beef with a particular person, or group of persons within this religion would that make me anti-semitic too?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
25. It Was Such A Shitty Movie Its Hard To Imagine Anyone Would Care
The movie was worthless. Were it not for people trying to make more of it than what it was - a poorly made way to make a very lot of money in a very short period of time - it would have died the death of obscurity. I put it right in there with what I imagine the Texas Chainsaw Massacre to be like, though I've never bothered to watch that one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Hey, Texas Chainsaw Massacre was a good movie.
Scariest movie I've ever seen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
27. Didn't Think It Then, Still Don't Think It Now.
I still never grasped where the anti-semitism rage was spawned from with the movie. I'm technically jewish and it seemed perfectly fine to me based on the New Testament. Doesn't mean he isn't potentially an anti-semite though (as shown lately).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I was offended by how anti-Roman the movie was.
:sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
29. The movie hasn't changed. It is a great movie.
There is not a whiff of anti-semitism in the movie, IMO. It's a great story, and incredibly well-filmed.

Gibson's an asshole. The movie is great.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
megatherium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. self-delete.
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 05:11 PM by megatherium
sorry
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
31. Don't know. But it's a Sado-Masochist's delight of a snuff film.
It had about as much to do with Christ and Christianity as one of those teen-age blood bath flicks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
32. It's Not Anti Semitic
and I challenge anyone here who's actually seen it to prove anti-semiticism in it
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
33. I found many aspects
anti-Semetic when I first saw it. The portrayal of Jews as bloodthirsty thugs was apalling and I didn't remember until being reminded recently that he also kept a part about blood libed in the film.

Of course, I found it to be a pretty shitty film overall anyways.

Mel Gibson was evasive earlier as well about condemning his father's views, so his recent outburst should be of little surprise.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Superman Returns Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
34. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt
Gibson take a lot of his screenplay from some anti-jewish medieval nun including the scene where he is dropped from the chains. I don't know if Gibson intended for POTC to be anti-semitic, but as a general movie goer I was just confused why Gibson who has been such greatly influenced by Christ took the time to remake a 2 hour execution scene of Jesus instead of showing us what he stood for beyond a couple of flashbacks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Not medieval, 19th Century nun
but still anti-semitic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
booley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
36. Wasn't it considered that before
could have sworn
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
39. Heck yes it's antisemitic...I saw it and was repulsed
at how Mel Gibson portrayed the Jews who did not support Jesus. They were characatures straight outta Berlin.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
42. The concept of the Passion Play was historically anti-semitic.
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 06:47 PM by Ragazz68
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
43. I did that early on to avoid the rush.
Mel's an ass.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. DU hasn't been "anti-Jewish" lately
It has been critical of the actions of the Israeli government, just as we are critical of the BUsh government... which does not make us unamerican.

And, frankly, I am tired of these repeated lies from posters saying this. It is also against both the old DU rules and the new posting guidelines posted by EarlG today.

Gibson's movie is NOT based on the Gospels, but is mainly based on the Dolorous Passion, a violently anti-semitic work. I mentione dthat several times in this thread. Blood libel is not Biblical, nor is the Nazi progagnada portrayal of the Jews.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eissa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
45. My story
The orthodox church I belong to is going through a bit of a crisis. One bishop, who is calling for reform, was ousted at the last meeting by the patriarch and remaining 10 bishops. The community is currently split between supporters of the bishop and those of the church. Centuries ago back in the old country, the church could have accused this bishop of blasphemy and had him killed. Would that have made them anti-Christian?

I saw this film on DVD (only because my husband and I wanted to see how much of the Aramaic we understood!) And while religious scholars continue to debate the Crucifixion and those responsible, my take is this -- if you were an anti-semite going in, you would be one coming out; if you weren't, nothing changed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Sep 16th 2014, 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC