what is an Islamofascist???

[LSK]

Seriously, do these things even exist???

[sinkingfeeling]

1. It's a word made up by RW wackos to define any Muslim who believes

that he/she should control their a)homeland b)holy sites c)their fellow believers in Islam or d)find it offensive to be bombed.

[oc2002]

21. yeah, its Sean InsanityHanity;s fav word.

It makes him feel good repeating it.

[cali]

2. It's an utterly useless descriptive

useless except to instill fear, that is. Having said that, I have a strong dislike of Islamic fundamentalism, and I'm sick of having to add the disclaimer that I dislike other kinds of fundamentalism. That's a given, but many, many more people are oppressed by Islamic fundamentalism, at this time, than any other form of religious fundamentalism.

Flame away.

[LSK]

5. ok... so wheres the fascist part?

[cigsandcoffee]

14. Think of the Taliban or the Mullahs in Iran.

Fundamentalists with absolute power. Fascists.

[ComerPerro]

48. but use a word like "Christofascists" and people go crazy

[cigsandcoffee]

55. I don't know who goes crazy, but I don't think that term works.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no Christian-controlled state approaching anything near the level of rigidness and fundamentalism that is evident in some Islamic theocracies. Which country is headed by "Christian fascists" that govern to the harsh religious levels of the Taliban or Iranian Mullahs?

[bryant69]

18. There was a book I read back in the late 90s

THat talked about the idea.

There are ideological parrallels between the Ideoloby of Musollini and Hitler, and the idealogy of some of the Muslim Fundementalist movements. Things like a rejection of modernity, for example. The idea that the state needed to be reborn. And others.

That said fascism, like nazism, is such a loaded word it has been rendered completely useless for any serious analysis. It has some use for garden variety polemics, I supose.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Jara sang]

27. Those parallels are dead wrong. Where are the corporate connections?

These Islamic extremists aren't heads of industry.

[bryant69]

35. OK. I apologize for offending you by presenting this idea

I would suggest that it there might be more to fascism, as an ideology, than a simple connection to corporatism, but I don't want to offend you.

Bryant

[Name removed]

39. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bryant69]

53. In the spirit of constructive criticism

May I suggest the following books to anybody curious about fascism.

Fascism edited by Roger Griffin, put out by Oxford Readers This version was published in 1995, and it's possible there is a newer edition. At any rate this work contains primarily primary sources, and covers Italy, Germany, other Europeon Fascist Movements, and Non-Europeon Fascist movements.

Between Two Fires Europes Path in the 1930s by David Clay Large is interesting if one is interested in Europeon Fascism in the 1930s. It's a narrative history and relatively readable.

I will reiterate that it is entirely possible to be a member of a Fascist movement without being in control of your countries goverment or economy (in the same way that it is possible to be a communist without holding control of the economy or government). That got deleted, but it's an important point, and hopefully non-controversial.

I have something to say on other issues this thread has raised, but perhaps I will hold off for the time being.

I should also note that the bulk of those who use the term Islamo-Fascism are doing so for it's rhetorical value, and not out of any attempt to understand either Fundamentalist Islam or Fascism.

Bryant

[CJCRANE]

64. Your analysis is right

but the people who use the term "islamofascism" are inconsistent. Saudi Arabia is probably the pre-eminent example of an islamic fundamentalist regime and yet the RW turns a blind eye to Bushco's billionaire business deals with them and cosy relationship. The neocons are not serious about fighting fundamentalism, it is just a smokescreeen (in fact they are part of the problem, they have done nothing but directly and indirectly encourage fundamemntalism).

However I would also say that the "christofascist" Republican base is also pretty dangerous, as they've condoned and supported the illegal invasion of a sovereign country leading to the deaths of 50 - 100,000 civilians, plus torture, kidnap, etc etc.

[Virginia Dare]

3. mythical creatures...

that the Nutjob-in-Chief dreamed up one night during a drug and alcohol induced nightmare. He chased them all night long, but in the morning, it was revealed that they were only windmills.

[Clark2008]

4. A word used by Christofacists as they project their warped

view of religion and the world on the few extremists in the Muslim world.

[adriennui]

38. very amusing

[annabanana]

42. We have a winner! This is their modus operandi!

An Islamic state would not necessarily be fascist. It would depend on how they "did business".

[bananarepublican]

60. Another useless label for the brain dead! n/t

[Marr]

6. Just after the invasion of Iraq began,

the Bush Administration's PR flaks were out in full force, and test driving a series of new phrases. Victoria Clarke used the phrase "Terrorist Death Squad Thugs" for several days, for instance. It sounded silly- like a six year old trying to fit every bad word they can into a playground put-down. A "big stupid fat butt poop head" sort of phrase, if you know what I mean.

I don't know if the word "islamofascist" grew out of that brief period, but it has that flavor.

[cigsandcoffee]

7. They're the folks who draw and quarter gays in Iran.

...and other such acts of barbarism around the Middle East. They're like our own Christian fundamentalists, but with dictatorial power. Scary people.

[The Magistrate]

8. It Is A Term Of Art, Sir

"Fascist" is pretty well conceeded all around to be a "bad thing", and so it is tacked onto Islamic to denote various fundamentalist radicals. It is not wholly unfair, as the general tendency of these people is to impose their own view of sacred law on others, and compell their obedience to it whether they wish to obey or not. Societies in which these tendencies predominate are extremely circumscribed as regards freedom of conscience and the rights of women, both things progressives are accustomed to assign pretty high value to.

[cigsandcoffee]

10. Well said. The Taliban are a fine example.

You wouldn't want to be anything but a devout Muslim living under them - unorthodox behaviour just isn't tolerated.

[ProfessorGAC]

12. Very Well, And Cleanly, Defined

Fascism, rooted in any dogma, islamic, communistic, or christian, is bad. The "islamo" part is just a detailed descriptor, IMO.
The Professor

[LSK]

16. that is a good explanation

Thank you.

[bemildred]

9. A muslim who is not on your side. nt

[CJCRANE]

65. Good description

but to be even more precise:

a muslim who won't do business with you.

[mmonk]

11. A projective adjective the rightwing uses

to cover up their own real designs and fascism. Proper description is met by saying Islamic fundamentalism, extremism, or radicalism. Fascism by definition is something else.

[AlCzervik]

13. a term that Frank "Climate change" Luntz thought up?

[Ignoramus]

15. Spam, cheese and lobster on pita bread

with hummus. It's so decadent.

[Clark2008]

33. Sounds like something Michael Chiarello would make

on Food Network.

[kwolf68]

17. Islamo fascist

I remember hearing this word and immediately started brain storming trying to figure out why the right took this moniker as a talking point.

To be honest, I was shocked they didn’t try to say “Islamo-communists” or “Islamo-Liberal”, or “Islamo-Socialist”.

I was thinking, “Why would they align these people with an ideology that is ostensibly right-wing in nature?"
Then it dawned on me that this was in fact, a way for the Right-wing movement in this nation to disengage itself from the label of fascist.

Maybe they subconsciously know they are exercising fascism in many ways, I don’t know. But what is clear to them is those of us on the left are now using the word “Fascism” more frequently to describe their policies and views.

What better way to diffuse the power of the word than to align it with the “terrorists” who “want to kill America”?

It’s more word-play and just like they trotted out “Socialist” and “Liberal” until the word was brandished a 4-letter bomb, they too seek to align Liberals with terrorists, thus Liberals with fascists. In the end, we get lumped in with not only the Socialists, but the Communists AND fascists.

It is why they futility argue that both Stalin and Hitler were “leaders” of the political LEFT.

[LSK]

19. so in a way it is a term of Orwellian doublespeak

[kwolf68]

24. Absolutely

The key here is to either

-turn fascist into something benign

or failing that

-align fascism with your political enemies. They have successfully used "commie baiting" to marginalize even moderate Liberals, and have turn others into scared wimps. We took our lumps, but those of us on the left are kinda getting sick of the name calling, cliches and want to strike back.

Enter the neoCons...Wow, we see all kinds of glowing examples of FASCISM. If we pump that all over the nation, then the American people may think, "shit...Im not scared of Stalin...Im scared of Hitler now" and then who knows...Conservatives=Fascism=Losing Elections.

But not if THEY strike first and align US Liberals with fascists. Watch out for it. Right now they are just using the term "Islamo-fascist"...at some point in the very near future "progressive" or "liberal" will get tied into it as well.

These people know what they are doing.

[annabanana]

43. It does follow a clear pattern of language twisting...

Figure out what your enemies will call you (in this case, justly) and jump the gun. This serves to muddy the waters and , at the very least, to change the intensity of the word, regardless of who it sticks to.

[Lilith Velkor]

67. That's already happened

Some DUers even post links to FrontPageMag suggesting that liberals are all in cahoots with neo-Nazis and fundie Muslims.

It's fucking disgusting bullshit. I don't understand why it's allowed.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

62. Perfect analysis. nt

[lectrobyte]

20. It's a RW term to frame themselves as the good guys. See "feminazi" etc.

nt

[The Deacon]

22. Actually,

A misnomer - the people the right wing are referring to are, for the most part, Theocrats, not Fascists.
Theocrats: the power of Religion over the State.
Fascists: the power of the State over the Individual.
Nazis: extreme outgrowth of fascism which believed the State is 'Racially Defined' and can/should only survive if 'Racially Pure.'

[cgrindley]

23. It's a 20 year old alternate term for Islamist

Basically, Islamofascist is an alternate term for Islamist. Ironically, at least according to the notoriously unreliable wiki, Jung first made the comparison the other way around, calling the Nazi's fascism, basically Islamist.

[annabanana]

44. wiki is wacky. . the perfect machine for framing mischief!!

or, as per Humpty Dumpty..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. Newspeak

It's like "islamist" or "homicide bomber" or "President Bush."-

[The Deacon]

28. Yeah,

I remember "homicide bomber" CNN used it for about two weeks before realizing how stupid it made them sound. Is Faux Noise Network still using it? They were the last time my stomach was strong enough to tolerate them for a short while (about 15 minutes.)

[JackNewtown]

26. Yes

Islamofascism is very real. It is fascism with an Islamic veneer.

[kwolf68]

29. I argue there is very little difference

In the Taliban in the Middle East and the Christian Taliban here. If there was no rule of law here, you can take your abortion doctors that have been murdered and start adding it up.

Religious fundamentalism is at the root of the Islamo-fascists as it is at the root of the Christo-fascists.

[AliceWonderland]

30. It's nonsense -- criticize extremism on its own terms, certainly

And extremism based upon religion is especially odious. But that shows no understanding of fascism as a concept. It was a nonsense term coined deliberately to equate the War on Terra with defeating Nazis. And we all hate Nazis, therefore...

But it has no meaning, really, except as something for the RW extremists to spew to their millions of listeners.

[Igel]

31. Wikipedia does a decent job with it.

Some editor must have been sitting on the contributors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofascist

Juan Cole doesn't like the term because he construes the term "Islam" to refer to an ideal, and the term "Islamofascist" as offensive to those that are Muslim. He also eschews "Christofascist" for the same reason, although I think that as an outsider he's off-base. It's completely possible for somebody to formulate a variety of Christianity that would be fascist, and few Christians of any stripe would object to it. After all, they formulated many other kinds of Christianity. (But there aren't different kinds of Islam, just one, so he's forced to make his argument fit his goal, and the parallel with Christianity is needed to support his argument.)

Take as an example the MMA in Pakistan's Northwest Frontier Province. They got a majority, and are likely to maintain it. But as soon as they had a majority--where people voted as their imam's instructed, and their teachers in the madaris said--the first thing they did was ensconce shari'a even more than the Pakistani Constitution does. They wanted to set up a parallel police, but that ran into problems: the police would "enjoin what was good and forbid what was bad." It would answer to no elected official, but to people appointed by imams, which is to say, the political party itself. Even before they ran into problems setting up this force, gangs of political supporters formed, ripping down advertisements, vandalising stores, burning them if necessary; they'd beat up women improperly dressed, and if they heard music at a wedding, they'd force open the door and invade, breaking the instruments and forcing the men and women into separate rooms. They call themselves Muslims, and few disagree: they took the shahada, pray regularly, and the like. They just require that everybody abide by their rules. Western NGOs working in the area finally mostly left; the MMA's response was "good, they're not Muslims, and obviously can't be doing anything good." The NGOs were there, they claimed, to subvert Muslims and destroy Islam.

They don't have the fascist "corporatist" view, but the political party, through their brownshirts, completely control both the private and public sector, and all aspects of public life and expression. And, indeed, many private aspects. For them, their ideology is the only one that is acceptable, and it's all-controlling. The lack of "corporatism" is trivial in the absence of corporations.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Metta]

34. It's the Middle Eastern equivalent to a neo-con.

Violence for any cause. Muscle through things. A real perversion of holy word and a real betrayal of human incarnation.

[High Plains]

36. A right-wing meme.

[meldroc]

37. Islamofascists DO exist.

As mentioned, the Taliban of Afghanistan are prime examples. The Wahabbiists of Saudi Arabia are another example. They believe that their flavor of Islam is the One True Faith, and will impose such monstrosities as strict Sharia Law. They demand that women must be dressed from head-to-toe in burqas, cannot drive vehicles, vote or even appear in public without a male family escort; classic punishments such as stonings, amputations, beheadings for various offenses (stonings for adultery or homosexuality, for example.) They've murdered & maimed thousands, have committed other offenses, such as destroying the thousand-year-old Collossus Buddhas in Afghanistan, and otherwise made the lands they rule into total hellholes.

Not so different from what Bush, Cheney, Pat Robertson & their ilk want to do in the U.S...

Granted, the right-wingers have extended the definition of "Islamofacist" to "anyone who practices Islam", which only serves to cause more problems...

[annabanana]

45. fascism is an economic term..

not a religious one

[The Magistrate]

57. Not So, Ma'am

The essences of fascism are nationalism and violence. Its economic elements are wholly subordinated to these leading lights.

It is fairly common for the entire body of believers in Islam to be considered properly a single nation, superior as a whole to any political unit, whether state or tribe, just as used to be the fashion in Christendom in the Medieval period. That is certainly the view of the fundamentalist radicals, and they indeed view their movement as an assertion of this Moslem nationality, and so are as properly classed as nationalists as anything else. Where no distinction is drawn between religion and politics and social organization, including economic life, as a fundamental principle of ideology, it will be pointless to speak of something being religious only; it will always be far more.

That these fundamentalist radicals are committed to violence should not require stating....

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LSK]

52. ?

[The Stranger]

54. ??

[MadHound]

40. A bigoted, deragatory term

That has been spread around and around the RW echo chamber, and sadly now, is becoming part of the mainstream "newspeak".

[Ms. Clio]

56. once upon a time, it was deleted when it appeared here

in the ignorant ravings of bigots.

[NNN0LHI]

41. That is Louspeak. Dobbs uses it every chance he gets n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

46. They're certainly as real as the Christian kind.

Bottom line is, this planet is riddled with control freaks of all stripes, often acting in the name of religion, usually driven by some kind of weird sexual need to run other people's lives.

[WildEyedLiberal]

47. Hahaha I've wondered that many times

When one of my RW friends starts ranting about "Islamofascists" I try to explain the actual definitions of "Islamist" and "fascist" and how the word "fascist" is not just a stand-in synonym for "group of people I hate and want to kill." I explain to them what fascism actually is and how it differs from theocratic totalitarianism.

The poor RW, not even their insults are clever...

[malaise]

49. It's one of the most stupid political

concepts ever invented unless they mean the Saudis and other rich men who practice Islam while defending corporations and simultaneously denying rights to their citizens.

Gr.

[The Stranger]

50. It is a Neoconservative-Fascist construction.

[Disturbed]

58. The Busholini Regime supports Saudi Monarchy among

other Authoritian Regimes. Calling various groups Islamofascist is deflection from what is really going on.

[SoCalDem]

59. Lou Dobbs' way of demonizing any Muslim

just like any self-respecting xenophobe would do..

[Solly Mack]

61. Islamofascist is a neologism meant to marginalize and dehumanize

a group of people for the purposes of shaping public opinion, by conflating a negative attribute with a neutral attribute, that is then portrayed as an inherent component of that group of people - so that attacks on that group of people are more readily accepted. Making it easier to subvert the rights of that group of people,and to even kill them.


Islamofascist is not the only word, term or phrase used in this manner either.

[Ganja Ninja]

63. The windmills George W Quixote tilts at.

[WernhamHogg]

66. Short answer

Short answer: any non-white person who does not live in America who disagrees with a conservative. Similar to the way they use "Un-American" and "traitor" to describe any American who disagrees with them.