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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:39 PM
Original message
billy graham on right now. MSNBC. says god is responsible
for everything. god knew from the day of creation what would happen. tried to catch it all, but the tv is in the next room.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yeah, we Catholics have the 'God is all-knowing and all-seeing'
thing going as well.

That's the only Catch 22 I have with a Supreme Being. Why? Why would he allow so much hatred, death, destruction, etc. I understand the free will concept but if it was me and I knew beforehand what a bunch of shits human beings were gonna be, I'd have gone bowling or something else on that particular day when humans were being created.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I Thought All Gods Were 24/7
Is there one that gives their god the weekend off? How about discounts on auto insurance? :rofl:
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
37. rofl
I Thought All Gods Were 24/7

:rofl:
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Because that God is a sadist; enjoys watching us fuck up
That's the only explanation I have. Why allow humans to suffer and go through terrible experiences if he didn't get some enjoyment out of it when he has the ability to make it all better?
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. i used to be catholic too. i agree with you.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. There are a few shitty people, but there are many good people
"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

-- Mahatma Gandhi

I'm a Deist. The universe was created, but there's nothing there that says God knows the future. Even if the Creator did, the Creator gave us free will anyway. I can only assume that the purpose of freewill is to learn and grow. There will be mistakes along the way, but the process of learning rarely excludes mistakes.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
35. That's why we have Hell and fallen angels. They are the bad
guys that God can't control, so they cause all the evil things and suffering on Earth to happen. They are in perpetual war with Heaven. It conveniently gets God off the hook.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Evil, you did that...
It helps to keep your little leaders fat
It don't mean much to us up here
But you primitive people, you gotta have fear.

From Ian Hunters God Take 1
Album: All American Alien Boy

Great song. Makes a lot of sense. One of the best albums I own.
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YDogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. Maybe god's just making it up as she goes along.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. If there is a god, it can't be a woman
Only a man would plan so badly and then refuse to retreat when chaos ensued. :evilgrin:
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well, That Just About Excuses Everything Anyone Does Now, Doesn't It?
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 02:46 PM by Beetwasher
I mean why NOT go out and murder, rape, torture anyone you feel like, god meant it to be that way. :shrug:

What an idiot.
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. They haven't trotted that one out for awhile
Yeah, don't do anything about the neocon bloodsuckers raping, pillaging and plundering the planet and murdering for profit. It's god's will.... :eyes:

He's pushing the opiate of the masses, big time. If I believed in God I wouldn't walk anywhere near Billy Graham's vicinity. Lightning bolts and all that. :nuke:
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Dr. Death Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. Or a much simpler explanation: there is no supreme being
:)

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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. You and "Occam's Razor" are right on!
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. i just posted that i think i've become an agnostic.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. god is always the fall guy
for people's actions and catastrophies. The last few years have definitely showed me America is in ways the least developed of the major industrialized nations in modern human thought.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. The self-proclaimed "Pastor to the Presidents." Sorry I missed him--
NOT!
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I Wouldn't Want To Miss Him
If i was throwing a pie!
The Professor
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. LOL!
Perfectly waste of damn good pie! Why, that's pie abuse!

I can think of several other more suitable things that should be thrown at him!
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. What If It Were A Pie I Didn't Like?
Would that be ok? Then i wouldn't be wasting it! Even a rotten tomato could do damage. A pie, not so much!
The Professor
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Maybe YOU Don't Like It, But It's Still A Yummy Pie to SOMEONE!
n/t
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Oh Yeah!
I kind of forgot about that possibility. But, really; does anyone like mincemeat pie? Mincemeat?
The Professor
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. LOL!
Actually, I've had a mincemeat pie and it was pretty good!

I'll allow a kidney pie, how's that?
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:06 PM
Original message
How about rhubarb?
Is there really such a thing? Isn't it a vegetable? So why make pie out of it. That's like making pie out of beets.

Colorful, perhaps. Good for tossing.

Bake
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
36. actually a strawberry rhubarb pie is quite tasty.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. Stop It!
You folks continue to limit my choice of pies to throw at him! You're all just no fun anymore.
The Professor
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. sorry.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Done!
The plan is set. Now all i have to do is be exactly where he is at the same time, with a kidney pie. You know i think the probabilistic issues may be insurmountable!
The Professor
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. i've never tasted it. it sounds gross.
:puke:
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. Well then God is responsible for 9/11, the Holocaust, etc., etc.
Makes one wonder why some worship him....Us Humans are just wind up toys, I guess....
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. that's how he made it sound. i was taught that god gave
everyone understanding and free will.

i think i've become an agnostic.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
13. that's standard christian theology
if god wasn't all-knowing he wouldn't be god, would he?

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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. who the hell knows? i was taught god was all knowing, all
seeing, all hearing. really can do a number on you if you're having sex and you think this "guy in the sky" is watching. lol

i'm glad i got over all those beliefs.
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
20. If god knew everything that was going to happen then he's an
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 02:57 PM by Generic Other
evil motherfucking moran for sitting passively by watching the spectacle.

If there's a more intelligent being in charge who could have imposed his will to prevent the death and human misery that has been inflicted on this world, but he chose not to for some "personal" reasons, he's more evil and disgusting than the beings created in his image.

He should be replaced by a competent diety. Or humans should start taking responsibility for their own affairs. Learn to deal with the reality of the human condition, and set about improving their lot. Quit looking for invisible magic to rescue them.

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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. I'm staying away from you during a lightning storm. n/t
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. i believe in the gods -- you know the ones from mythology.
i was taught by my spiritual teacher that there is a goddess who rules the sea, a god that rules the mountains, a god who rules thunder and rain and his female counterpart rules lightening and thunder. he also said that i had an affinity to that goddess. maybe that's why i love watching lightening and i don't fear it.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
26. What? They followed Rev. Hagee with Billy Graham! You are kidding!
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 03:02 PM by KoKo01
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
39. Hagee was on.? someone who was trying to convert me to
christianity gave me a tape of Hagee. i listened to this man screaming about hell and damnation. i think she should have chosen a better guy than Hagee to convert someone.
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skypilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
27. So, I guess that means he knew...
...that I'd be a homosexual, so they should all just shut the hell up about THAT now.
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. oh yes. he created you that way. wonder what billy would have
to say about that?
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
29. That's a standard belief....the guy is a registered democrat...
Least I've been told that by several people. He's probably one of the most reasonable men around.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #29
46. Listen to him on the Nixon Tapes.
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 04:00 PM by Benhurst
If he's a Democrat, it's because he registered as one when he first moved to North Carolina.

In those days the Southern Democrats were Dixiecrats. Southern Progressives were Republicans, hence the term "Black Republicans." Only through the efforts of Strom Thurmond and Nixon's "Southern Strategy," did the flip take place, with Southern Republicans now being little more than Dixiecrats without sheets.

A close personal friend of the Bush Crime Family, Billy Graham is the sort of "Democrat" we'd be better off without.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. He's also friends with the Clintons, too...
He also walks the walk and has for a very long time. Billy Graham was probably one of the very few religious leaders that could garner so much support across such a wide spectrum. He's not out like his son or the rest of them trying to make religious values into law.

He did at one time voice very controversial views when the Nixon tapes came out in 2002. He doesn't remember saying what he did and given his age, it's no surprise. He also apologized for it, but people will either accept that or not.

A few days before the 2000 election he gave a speech about bush, but stopped short of formally endorsing him.

Billy Graham has deeply held religious beliefs and I respect that. I don't believe he's compromised them over the years and has probably made a few mistakes along the way just like anyone else.

He is in nowhere the same catagory as Pat Robertson or Falwell. I do wish he would tell those assholes to shutup though.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Was the charismatic Reverend Mr. Graham at the forefront of
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 04:53 PM by Benhurst
the civil rights movement or even take an active part in the struggle against segregation in the 1950s and 1960s, a struggle which became the defining moral issue for this nation in the last century?

Later in the 1960s he found ample time to attend numerous "Affirmation Vietnam" rallies, garnering support for an immoral war. His remarkably unChristian remarks to Nixon, including rather horrifying suggestions for military action, were hardly out of character.

I grant you, he does curry favor with the rich and powerful, to say nothing of the presidential.

What is going on in the Middle East right now has the support of many with strong religious beliefs on both sides, using God to justify wholesale destruction and murder. Deeply held religious convictions can be a virtue; but often they are the hallmark of fanaticism.

Samuel Johnson once said that "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

Unfortunately,in American, religion has become the first.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. I'm not disputing what he did or didn't do during that time...
maybe some have hard feelings since he didn't fully embrace a cause as much as some would like.

Graham did order racial integration seating at his meetings in the south and has expressed several times he regretted not going to Selma. He looks back and knows he should do more.

Also, he's one of the few evangelists who saw the potential abuse in accepting money from congregations. He takes considerably less money and continues to live on a modest 10 room home with his wife as he has for many years now.

Graham was also banned from Bob Jones University. When Bob Jones died, his son sent a telegram to Graham's representative saying no one from that camp is welcome. Extreme fundamentalists don't care for him too much because of some positions he has taken over the years.

His stance on Vietnam was ambiguous at best. He said in the past to "get in with all we've got in Vietnam or get out". Now, he says he's uncertain about everything because he believes it's over-Americanized.

He doesn't care for ROTC because he believes it could lead to a development of an officer compariable to those in Nazi Germany.

His views vary and over the years his positions on issues have changed as with do most people as they grow older. He stays away from controversies for the most part due to his age and limitations.

Here is a good honest article on him:

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/graham.htm
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Thanks for the article. I fear Graham
still represents a dangerous mixture of church and state to me.

But he has been, without a doubt, a good businessman in a nation where religion is big business.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. He's 86 or 87 years old and retired
I think you're confusing the guy with Robertson or Falwell. He is ten times better than those jerks and didn't turn christianity into a business with political power like they did.

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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. No, I'm 62 years old and was on Capitol Hill when Graham was
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 05:31 PM by Benhurst
at his worst and most powerful. He was not on the side of the angels back then.

Robertson and Falwell are both villains of the first order.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. You consider him still powerful even though he's retired...
and not involved as he once was.

I'm not ignoring his influence...he does have that with powerful people, but since he's in a totally different league than the likes of Robertson and Falwell, I personally don't think he's trying to sway policy towards ones more to his liking...at least he isn't now. What he's done has always been about his beliefs and as with any human has made mistakes.

While I don't share his biblical beliefs, I do respect him. We just don't agree on this which is fine...I don't expect anyone to considering the religious aspects involved.

:hi:
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
33. this limited conception of God offends me
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 03:12 PM by maxsolomon
determinist fools ruining our planet.

free will exists - it is demonstrated every fucking second of every fucking hour.

the human mind cannot understand the nature of God, yet monotheism keeps assigning the form of a Sky Grampa to an unknowable mystery.

they would do well to read up on advanced physics - that way lies real mystery & wonder.
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. or as george carlin calls him "this man in the sky".
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. Agree and Quantum physics, if it's proven to be fact, may
have the answer that's been right under our noses all along.
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. String Theory
my personal religious belief: whatever it is that animates the strings of energy that compose reality - that is 'god' - the anima mundi.

i am a pantheist i guess.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. I guess my religion is kind of Stone Age.
What the Australian aborigines believe about Dream Time actually makes some sense to me. :-)
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. The Hopi have some very interesting notions about time and space.
Very interesting, indeed.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Yes, some primitive belief systems seem to be
closer to the truth than our fantasy mythologies in the "civilized" world.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. Self delete.
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 05:33 PM by Cleita
Dupe
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Bjornsdotter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
45. He's still here?

Shit I was hoping he would be "raptured"....wasn't today Rapture Day?

Cheers
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. My sentiments exactly!
I'm constantly amazed at all the DU'ers who think Billy Grab'em...er, Graham is some sort of religious "class act."

They usually point out that Billy is a registered Democrat. Which didn't stop him from giving one G.W. Bush a very strong endorsement in 2000.

Anybody who still thinks highly of this pompous, Bible-thumping old fool needs to read the critical biographies of him. IIRC, Marshall Frady's bio has Graham threatening any of his critics with Great Bodily Harm, courtesy of the Big Sky-Pixie.

I espeically enjoyed the reminisces of Charles Templeton, who knew Graham as a young man before Graham became America's Number One Evangelist. And that was largely thru the efforts of the Hearst press, which should set off some alarm bells in those who are not totally awash in Xian Kool-Aid.

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Homer Wells Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
52. If something GOOD happens, then it is , of course
GODS WILL. If something bad happens, then God works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform! :shrug:
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
54. So where did this "God" come from? nt
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