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plasticsundance Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:46 PM
Original message
Hizbullah's attacks stem from Israeli incursions into Lebanon
NEW YORK As pundits and policymakers scramble to explain events in Lebanon, their conclusions are virtually unanimous: Hizbullah created this crisis. Israel is defending itself. The underlying problem is Arab extremism.

Sadly, this is pure analytical nonsense. Hizbullah's capture of two Israeli soldiers on July 12 was a direct result of Israel's silent but unrelenting aggression against Lebanon, which in turn is part of a six-decades long Arab-Israeli conflict.

Since its withdrawal of occupation forces from southern Lebanon in May 2000, Israel has violated the United Nations-monitored "blue line" on an almost daily basis, according to UN reports. Hizbullah's military doctrine, articulated in the early 1990s, states that it will fire Katyusha rockets into Israel only in response to Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilians or Hizbullah's leadership; this indeed has been the pattern.

In the process of its violations, Israel has terrorized the general population, destroyed private property, and killed numerous civilians. This past February, for instance, 15-year-old shepherd Yusuf Rahil was killed by unprovoked Israeli cross-border fire as he tended his flock in southern Lebanon. Israel has assassinated its enemies in the streets of Lebanese cities and continues to occupy Lebanon's Shebaa Farms area, while refusing to hand over the maps of mine fields that continue to kill and cripple civilians in southern Lebanon more than six years after the war supposedly ended. What peace did Hizbullah shatter?

more ...

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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. Truth like this doesn't sway a lot of people here.
They believe in soundbites. Hezbolah - absolute evil. Israel - would never do anything wrong.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. Yes. Of course there the other soundbites
Hezbolah - Innocent victim. Israel - absolute evil.

It's nice that we are presented a choice.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. Even Tony Blair said in Presser today....Hezbollah attacked Israel.
No background, nothing. When asked if the attack by Israel wasn't disproportionate to "capture of two soldiers" he refused to answer it and covered it up by saying he didn't want to take sides on the issue.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Islamic jihad is equally as bad as a Judaic "jihad" you have to admit. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. What's with all the Paleocons?
First Pat Buchanan, now Anders Strindberg?

What is the deal?
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. Just remembering...
Just remembering how they started out.

Born of the Israeli military seizure of Lebanon in 1982, Hezbollah, the Party of God, or rather, the Party of Allah, was started by Lebanese Shia under Iranian command-and it started hitting its enemies hard, using the classic Shia suicide bombing technique. (Back then, suicide bombs were still a shock.) From there on, it's just boom, boom,
boom.

Boom #1: April 1983: Hezbollah suicide bomber destroys US Embassy in Beirut. 63 people killed.

Booms #2&3: October 1983: Hezbollah suicide bombers bring down highrise housing US Marines in Beirut in which 241 Marines were killed. Exactly 20 seconds after that blast, Hezbollah suicide bombers hit French barracks, killing 58 French paratroopers. The U.S. and French were joint members of the International Peacekeeping Force and the attacks led to its withdrawal from Lebanon (further adding to the region's troubles).

Boom #4: November 1983: Hezbollah truck bombers destroy Israeli HQ in Southern Lebanon, killing 60 people.

The Marine Barracks Bombing...
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plasticsundance Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Just Remembering2
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 02:39 PM by plasticsundance
"In February of 1944, under the new leadership of Menachem Begin, Irgun resumed hostilities against the British authorities. The purpose of these attacks was to increase the cost of British mandatory rule and influence British public opinion so as to encourage British withdrawal. It included attacks on prominent symbols of the British administration, including the British military, police, and civil headquarters at the King David Hotel and the British prison in Acre. Although these attacks were largely successful, several Irgun operatives were captured, convicted, and hanged. Refusing to accept the jurisdiction of the British courts, those accused refused to defend themselves. The Irgun leadership ultimately responded to these executions by hanging two British sergeants, which effectively brought the executions to an end.

more ...

"Early in the morning of April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun (headed by Menachem Begin) and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. The village lay outside of the area to be assigned by the United Nations to the Jewish State; it had a peaceful reputation. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Deir Yassin was slated for occupation under Plan Dalet and the mainstream Jewish defense force, the Haganah, authorized the irregular terrorist forces of the Irgun and the Stern Gang to perform the takeover.

"In all over 100 men, women, and children were systematically murdered. Fifty-three orphaned children were literally dumped along the wall of the Old City, where they were found by Miss Hind Husseini and brought behind the American Colony Hotel to her home, which was to become the Dar El-Tifl El-Arabi orphanage."

more ...

"The Lavon affair ("Esek Habish" - the shameful affair) was one of the most bizarre chapters in Israeli history. In 1954, the Israeli secret service set up a spy ring in Egypt, with the purpose of blowing up US and British targets. The operation was code-named "Susanah." The terrorist hits were to be blamed on the regime of Egyptian President Gamal Abdul Nasser, with the purpose of alienating the US and Britain from Egypt and Nasser and somehow preventing Egyptian nationalization of the Suez canal. The ring was discovered. Strict censorship ensured that that the Israeli public officially knew little or nothing of the affair for many years. Names were not mentioned, the affair was called "Esek Bish" - the affair of shame, and key protagonists were referred to as "X" and "the third man." Unofficially and through leaks, most people knew at least the outlines of the affair."

more ...






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plasticsundance Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Just remembering3
"At 0800 hrs, 8 June, 1967, eight Israeli recon flights flew over 'Liberty,' which was flying a large American flag. At 1400 hrs, waves of low-flying Israeli Mystere and Mirage-III fighter-bombers repeatedly attacked the American vessel with rockets, napalm, and cannon. The air attacks lasted 20 minutes, concentrating on the ship's electronic antennas and dishes. The 'Liberty' was left afire, listing sharply. Eight of her crew lay dead, a hundred seriously wounded, including the captain, Commander William McGonagle.

At 1424 hrs, three Israeli torpedo boats attacked, raking the burning 'Liberty' with 20mm and 40mm shells. At 1431hrs an Israeli torpedo hit the 'Liberty' midship, precisely where the signals intelligence systems were located. Twenty-five more Americans died.

Israeli gunboats circled the wounded 'Liberty,' firing at crewmen trying to fight the fires. At 1515, the crew were ordered to abandon ship. The Israeli warships closed and poured machine gun fire into the crowded life rafts, sinking two. As American sailors were being massacred in cold blood, a rescue mission by US Sixth Fleet carrier aircraft was mysteriously aborted on orders from the White House."

... Less than an hour after the attack, Israel told Washington its forces had committed a 'tragic error.' Later, Israel claimed it had mistaken 'Liberty' for an ancient Egyptian horse transport. US Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, and Joint Chiefs of Staff head, Admiral Thomas Moorer, insisted the Israeli attack was deliberate and designed to sink 'Liberty.' So did three CIA reports; one asserted Israel's Defense Minister, Gen. Moshe Dayan, had personally ordered the attack.

more ...




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furman Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. The USS Liberty attack was accidental, not intentional
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/lib...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/lib...

The Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was a grievous error, largely attributable to the fact that it occurred in the midst of the confusion of a full-scale war in 1967. Ten official United States investigations and three official Israeli inquiries have all conclusively established the attack was a tragic mistake.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. Yeah, Riiiight.
wink wink
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. I heard there is supposed to be further
investigation into the assault on the USS liberty. If the new investigation is under the auspices of the Bush administration you know what the outcome will be. This was a flagrant attack on the US by our 'ally' Israel. Those who were around in those days will not forget it. JUstice was not served by Johnson's corrupt administration. An American life is worth nothing to the leaders of this country and the Israeli cowards who use every dirty trick in the book.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. There was a documentary a few years ago
..that included the Captain of the Liberty and several surviving crewmen.
There is NO WAY the repeated attacks on the Liberty were accidental.
The only accidents were that the Liberty stayed afloat long after it should have sank, and that there were survivors.
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JackNewtown Donating Member (703 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. Israel had a right to use force against foreign occupation nt
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #31
53. Who's being occupied? n/t
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Not necessarily so
The Marine barracks bombing occured in 1983. Hezbollah was not created until 1985.


The responsibility for the bombing is uncertain. Despite the fact that they were not officially an organization until Feburary 1985, many (notably the U.S. government) believe the Hezbollah militant group, backed by Iran and Syria, was responsible for the bombings, as well as the bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut in April of 1983. Hezbollah, Iran and Syria, all staunch opponents of Western support for Israeli occupation of Lebanon, denied any involvement. Several Shia militant groups claimed responsibility for the attacks, and one, the Free Islamic Revolutionary Movement, identified the two suicide bombers as Abu Mazen, 26, and Abu Sijaan, 24
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombi...

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furman Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. No, Hezbollah was created in 1982
partly as a resistance movement against Israel's invasion of Lebanon.
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warrens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Hmmm, nothing since 23 years ago?
We could go back to some terrorist attacks on the part of Israelis against the British, if that's the game you want to play.
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plasticsundance Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. Really?
I could swore that the bombing of the UN building in Lebanon was this year. Oops. don't tell me, just another accident. What is Israel's struggle now that they occupy Palestinian land, bulldozing there houses down ... cutting off their water supply?

This was pretty recent as I recall:

"One bulldozer, serial number 949623, began to work near the house of a physician who is a friend of ours, and in whose house Rachel and other activists often stayed. While we occupied the other structures directly west (the closest was less than 5 meters away and the furthest was less than 25 meters away), Rachel sat down in the pathway of the bulldozer. I was elevated about 2 meters above the ground, and had a clear view of the action happening about 20 meters away. Still wearing her fluorescent jacket, she sat down at least 15 meters in front of the bulldozer, and began waving her arms and shouting, just as activists had successfully done dozens of times that day. The bulldozer continued driving forward headed straight for Rachel. When it got so close that it was moving the earth beneath her, she climbed onto the pile of rubble being pushed by the bulldozer. She got so high onto it that she was at eye-level with the cab of the bulldozer. Her head and upper torso were above the bulldozer's blade, and the bulldozer driver and co-operator could clearly see her."



Despite this, he continued forward, which pulled her legs into the pile of rubble, and pulled her down out of view of the diver. If he'd stopped at this point, he may have only broken her legs, but he continued forward, which pulled her underneath the bulldozer. We ran towards him, and waved our arms and shouted, one activist with the megaphone. But the bulldozer driver continued forward, until Rachel was underneath the central section of the bulldozer. At this point, it was more than clear that she was nowhere but underneath the bulldozer, there was simply nowhere else she could have been, as she had not appeared on either side of the bulldozer, and could not have stayed in front of it that long without being crushed. Despite the obviousness of her position, the bulldozer began to reverse,without lifting its blade, and drug the blade over her body again. He continued to reverse until he was on the boarder strip, about 100 meters away, and left her crushed body in the sand.



Three activists ran to her and began administering first-responder medical treatment. Her body was in a mangled position, her face was very bloody, and her skin was turning blue. She said, "My back is broken!", but nothing else. The three activists took care to keep her neck straight, and turned her to her side in case of vomit or blood from the mouth. She was showing signs of brain hemorrhaging (I found out later from the British medical activist) so they elevated her head in order to allow it to drain blood, as this injury was more serious than her spinal injury. They continued to talk to her in attempts to keep her conscience.



The other bulldozer, which had been working about 30 meters to the west, abandoned work and withdrew to the boarder strip, and parked about 10 meters to the west of the murderous bulldozer. The tank came over to see what had happened, and I shouted that they had run over our friend, and that she may die. The soldiers in the tank never spoke to us, asked us any questions or offered us any help. They simply talked on their radio and then withdrew to the border strip and parked between the two bulldozers. One activist ran to the doctor's house less than 5 meters away to ask for his help and to call an ambulance. I also called a Palestinian friend and asked him to call an ambulance, as our Orange network phones cannot dial the emergency number. An activist used the megaphone to inform the soldiers that a Palestinian ambulance was on the way, and demanded that they not shoot at the paramedics. He also told them that a Palestinian doctor is present and is going to come out into the area. The doctor came out and suggested that we move her, but it was clear that we could not. He used cotton swabs to dab some of the blood coming from her face.


The Moments Before Rachel Corrie's Murder

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HongKonger Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
52. From the same article
The responsibility for the bombing is uncertain. Despite the fact that they were not officially an organization until Feburary 1985, many (notably the U.S. government) believe the Hezbollah militant group, backed by Iran and Syria, was responsible for the bombings...

Hezbollah was not even formed yet.
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furman Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. Disinformation Alert
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 02:27 PM by furman

(Israel) continues to occupy Lebanon's Shebaa Farms area

Shebaa Farms is actually internationally recognized as of the Golan Heights in Syria.
Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000.
Hezbollah continues to insist that this area is still part of Lebanon in order to add a pretext for their actions against Israel.



Neither Hizbullah nor Hamas are driven by a desire to "wipe out Jews," as is so often claimed, but by a fundamental sense of injustice that they will not allow to be forgotten.


In actuality, Hezbollah is committed to the destruction of Israel and the formation of a
fundamental Islamic state in the model of Iran throughout the entire region.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. And the Hamas charter
includes getting rid of Jews "wherever they may be found".

Hezbollah refers to alll of Israel as "Occupied Palestine" and Tel Aviv as a "settlement".
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furman Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I just edited my post above to include disinformation re. Shebaa Farms n/t
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Doesn't Syria say much of the territory is rightfully Lebanon's? n/t
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plasticsundance Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Uh ... who's really doing the disinformation
Lebanon has asked Kofi Annan and the UN for the removal of Israeli troops, not Syrian troops from the Shebaa farmlands. The UN denied this request. And Hezbollah had requested a prisoner exchange from Israel, and Israel refused. Nasrallah came out with a statement that said if there would be no negotiations then Hezbollah would take action.

And if Israel is so sure that these forces want the destruction of the nation of Israel with its fourth most powerful military in the world, do you really think killing innocent Lebanese children is going to win others to their sides?

Wasn't there a prophet, or proverb that says:

The very path they have chosen, has become the way towards their destruction.

Whether you like it or not, it will take both parties to negotiate. This overhanded invasion by Israel is serving no good purpose for either side.
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furman Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Please refer to the following source for Shebaa Farms
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JackNewtown Donating Member (703 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. Israel does not have the world's 4th strongest military
However, the Israel Defense (It is great that Israel, unlike every other nation, includes the defensive nature of their military in its name. This is especially good for those who don't realize the defensive nature of IDF operations against the Palestinians on internationally recognized occupied Palestinian Israeli land) Forces are definately the regional superpower. No military in the Middle East comes close to the strength of the Israel Defense Forces. Thankfully, as the name suggests, Israel's military is purely defensive.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Can you provide sources for your statements?
CSMonitor is considered reliable and I'm not an expert on all of this - sources would be appreciated.
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furman Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Here is a source, there are many more...
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=31&x_actionit...

July 14, 2006
Washington Post: Memory Lapse on Hezbollah
Omissions of key facts undermine The Washington Posts lead front-page report, "Hezbollah Raid Opens 2nd Front for Israel; Lebanese Shiite Fighters Seize 2 Soldiers; Olmert Calls Deadly Attack an Act of War," July 13.

The article, by Post Foreign Service correspondents Anthony Shadid and Scott Wilson, notes that "the United States blamed Syria and Iran for the abduction" of Israeli troops, but does not say why. Readers ought to be informed that:

Iran reportedly provides much of Hezbollahs $100 million annual budget and Hezbollah is suspected as serving as an extension of Iranian intelligence;

As mentioned in a same-day analysis by The Posts Robin Wright, "Hezbollah was founded in 1982 with the funding, arms and training by Iranian Revolutionary Guards dispatched to Lebanon after Israels invasion";
<snip>
The article does not mention the Nazi-like antisemitic utterances of Hezbollah leaders or the organizations goals of the destruction of Israel and imposition of an Iranian-style theocracy in Lebanon.
<snip>
A chronology accompanying the article refers to Hezbollah attacks against "Israeli military posts in the disputed Shebaa Farms area ...." The Post continues to refer occasionally to the Shebaa Farms area as disputed, but there is no real dispute, as CAMERA has pointed out previously. The area is recognized internationally as part of the Golan Heights, taken by Israel from Syria in the 1967 Six-Day War. Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon in May 2000. The United Nations, "using dozens of maps, say Shebaa is part of Syria but the two nations are free to change the border, which they have not" ("UN urges Lebanon to disband Hizbollah, set borders," Reuters, Apr. 19, 2006). Hezbollah insists that the area is Lebanese as a pretext to avoid disarmament, as the Reuters report but not The Post chronology highlights.
<snip>

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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. Sourcewatch on the provided "source", CAMERA
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 04:27 PM by MH1
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=CAMERA

The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA) is a powerful Boston-based lobby group that tries to curb criticism of Israel in US media.


Edit to add the summary quote from the link.

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JackNewtown Donating Member (703 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. The Golan Heights is internationally recognized as Syrian?
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 04:22 PM by JackNewtown
So Israel clearly is correct in occupying (only because Israel wants peace) what the so-called international community claims is Syrian land. The international community is dead wrong on the Golan Heights--except when they say the Shebba Farms are not part of Lebanon. I wish people would correct their thinking on this! :mad:
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
35. Help me with this
Okay, so let's say Shebaa Farms is part of Syria. (I understand that Syria claims it is part of Lebanon).

Either way, it is not part of Israel. Why would Israel still occupy it?

Pardon my ignorance... I just don't understand how this is a defence of Israel occupying that area?

:shrug:
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. I f you get a straight answer to this
let us know. I'm sure the Israeli/Americans will come up with some convoluted reason.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. Hezbollah has said they seek the destruction of Israel as a state
With or without Shebaa farms, whuch BTW never belonged to Lebanon, but was Syrian.

Plus, Hezbollah really just wants Israel to be Palestine and the creation of Israel in 1948 to be wiped from existence. They do not want peace.

Hezbollah's spokesperson Hassan Ezzedin in an interview
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/021014fa...

"If they go from Sheba'a, we will not stop fighting them. Our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine... can go back to Germany or wherever they came from. New Yorker, (October 14, 2002).
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. Most here do not CARE that Hezbollah is hellbent on destroying Israel.
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 03:15 PM by in_cog_ni_to
It doesn't matter. They deserve it because they are oppressing the Palestinian people. Israelis are not important in this debate...they aren't the underdog. They're too strong for sympathy.

Nasrallah purveys his message via Hezbollahs own television network, Al-Manar, a primary engine of incitement to violence against Jews, Israelis and Americans. Al Manars stated mission is to "wage psychological warfare against the Zionist enemy." This is often done by glorifying attacks, particularly suicide missions against Israel. Last year, Nasrallah appeared on Al-Manar encouraging "martyrdom" among children, saying:

How can death become joyous? How can death become happiness? When Al-Hussein asked his nephew Al-Qassem, when he had not yet reached puberty: "How do you like the taste of death, son?" He answered that it was sweeter than honey. How can the foul taste of death become sweeter than honey? Only through conviction, ideology, and faith, through belief, and devotion.

We do not want to...leave our homeland to Israel... Therefore, we are not interested in our own personal security. On the contrary, each of us lives his days and nights hoping more than anything to be killed for the sake of Allah. (MEMRI: Al-Manar TV , Feb. 18-19, 2005)

In May, Nasrallah appeared on Al-Manar TV to explain that "our nation's willingness to sacrifice their blood, souls, children, fathers, and families" is an advantage over the Jews "who guard their lives." (MEMRI: Al-Manar TV on May 23, 2006.)


http://camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=11&x_ar...

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furman Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. I think most people here do not KNOW that Hezbollah wants Israel destroyed
Those who do not care about this fact miss the entire point of why Israel is trying to degrade Hezbollah before they are able to become even stronger.

People living under occupation have only their terrorist members and leaders to blame for provoking attacks against Israel and rallying for its destruction.

I don't buy your point about not sympathizing with Israelis. They are living under the constant threat of terrorism.
Now they are under attack from Hezbollah rockets aimed for their population centers.

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JackNewtown Donating Member (703 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. I care and that is why I oppose actions that strengthen Hezbollah
Israel's collective punishment of Lebanon--which violates international law--and its destruction of basic Lebanese infrastructure is causing Hezbollah's prestige, popularity, and power to reach all-time highs. Of course, the military-industrial-complex in Israel will love having a strong Hezbollah.
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furman Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #40
55. Everyone in Israel is part of the "military-industrial complex"
Service in the military is required in Israel.

Therefore, I am sure that most Israelis do not want a strong Hezbollah.
That would mean fighting more guerilla wars and having Israeli cities under
attack like what is happening now.

Most Israelis want peace.
Most Israelis also realize there will be no peace as long as Hezbollah
is allowed to have free rein to build up their militia and terrorist
wings and launch attacks against Israel.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. They know. I, and MANY others here, point it out on a daily basis
and they just don't care. If I've said "Hezbollah and Hamas want to destroy Israel, run them into the sea and kill every Jew" once, I've posted it a THOUSAND times. They don't care. Trust me. The anti-Israel crowd DOES NOT SYMPATHIZE with Israel AT ALL!

I DO sympathize with Israel for the very reasons you stated.

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JackNewtown Donating Member (703 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
39. Shebba is part of the Golan Heights. The GH belong to Israel
Let's not spread the myth that the GH and Shebba belong to Syria.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. also true
according to the UN
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. Don't even get into the WHO started it argument
Each side can point to any number of events that led to the current mess...

Instead, we should focus on how the fark this is all going to end.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
19. Israeli incursions into Lebanon stem from Hezbollah attacks.
Stated another way.
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plasticsundance Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Hezbollah made a demand for prisoner exchange
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 03:37 PM by plasticsundance
Israel refused. Israel holds these prisoners with no trial date, including children. Israel occupies the Shebaa farmlands. Why give Hezbollah a cause?
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Yeah, but there are at least two sides in a war.
Make no mistake, this is a war and making demands won't solve anything. So Israel holds suspected 'terrorists' without due process? Gosh, who does that sound like?
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Really? Then why is the guy at the top of Hezbollah's list Samir Kuntar?
Here, let me help you out with that one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Kuntar

On April 22, 1979, Samir Kuntar led a group of four who entered Israel from Lebanon by boat. They belonged to the organization PLF under the leadership of Abu Abbas. Around midnight they arrived at the coastal town of Nahariya about six miles south of the Lebanese border. The four killed a policeman who ran across them and were able to break into the apartment of the Haran family before police reinforcements had arrived. The unit took 28-year-old Danny Haran hostage along with his four-year-old daughter Einat. The mother, Smadar Haran, was able to hide in a crawl space above the bedroom with her two-year-old daughter Yael. Kuntar's group understood that there were more people in the house and went around looking for them, shooting rounds and throwing hand grenades.

Shootout and capture by Israel

After holding to the hostages, a shootout with Israeli policemen and soldiers erupted. Samir Kuntar shot and killed the father at close range in front of his daughter, and then murdered the four-year-old girl by smashing her head with the butt of his rifle against a rock, crushing her skull.


You will also please note that not only was Mr. Kuntar given a trial "date", he was tried, convicted and sentenced. That's who the so-called "prisoner exchange" is about. If Hezbollah was really interested in these people supposedly held without trial, why aren't they asking for them, instead of
"heroes" like Mr. Kuntar?

Shebaa farms is a snow job and an excuse. Hezbollah's aim has always been to evict Israel from all "occupied" lands - places like Tel Aviv.

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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. Maybe because Samir was a 16 yr. old boy when he "led" that incursion...
and his country was under occupation at the time.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. So you're saying that the guy who smashed in the four year old girl's head
with a rifle butt should be let go?

That he was somehow "justified" in what he did?

This happened in 1979. What "country" was under occupation that Samir Kuntar was justified in storming into a random appartment, terrorizing a family, lobbing grenades, killing a man in front of a four year old girl before deliberately and callously smashing her head in against a rock?

For what "country" is he a legitimate "hero"?

And, really, I thought this was all about a "prisoner exchange" for "thousands" of people held "without charges". I guess not.
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Depends on what you consider "occupation" & "justice", I guess.
History Revisited in Lebanon Fighting - By Edward Cody and Scott Wilson
Washington Post Foreign Service - July 22, 2006
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

~snip~

The 1978 Operation Litani provided a clear lesson in the rules of unintended consequences. It was a swift success militarily; Israeli forces pushed across the border and moved about 20 miles north to the Litani River without serious opposition from primarily ragtag Palestinian defenders. They weren't native to the area or fully familiar with it -- they'd moved to it in the early 1970s to escape a crackdown in Jordan.

Under U.S. and other international pressure, the Israeli forces soon withdrew. But the Israeli defense minister at the time, Ezer Weizman, who later became president, ordered relentless bombing of the Lebanese border hills to drive out the civilian population. U.S. officials complained of civilian casualties, but the attacks continued.

The idea, Israeli officials explained, was to create a free-fire zone where it could be assumed that anybody moving around was a Palestinian guerrilla and a fair target for Israeli warplanes or artillery fire. The result over the next year, however, was a long list of civilian deaths -- farmers carrying tobacco crops to market, families picnicking on jagged hillsides and villagers caught in their homes when stray bombs landed.

Eventually, increasing numbers gave up and fled to Beirut. These families, most of them Shiite Muslims, took up residence in what was then undeveloped land between southern Beirut and the international airport -- and now is the teeming Shiite suburb known as the Dahiya.
Its exploding young population, sons of those chased from southern homes, became the base of a new radical organization born several years later. Inspired by the 1979 Iranian revolution, it eventually took the name Hezbollah, or Party of God.

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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #32
51. I won't make the Colbert joke about wikipedia.
Neither side wants to exchange prisioners...what you actually believe that? This is a war between Lebanon and Israel. Atrocities? Yeah both sides want peace, right.
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GAPeace Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
33. But the evil Arabs want to destroy Israel
Sorry for the hyperbolic title, but that's all I ever seem to see in mainstream debate.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
36. ...which, in turn, stem from something the Palestinians did, which...
...stems from something else Israel did, which... ad infinitum.

The entire thing is hopeless. It's just depressing.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #36
54. It does end somewhere
Edited on Fri Aug-04-06 02:18 AM by manic expression
and this whole mess clearly originates with Israel's theft of land and forced eviction of thousands of people. They continue such policies today. There is blame to be given here, and Israel has given us every reason to give the lion's share to Israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3...
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JackNewtown Donating Member (703 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
41. Is this true? Did Israel provoke the attack? nt
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USA_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
48. I Heard This Truth On C Span ...
just a few days ago for the first time.

The problem here is the unwillingness for the Arab/Middle Eastern press to broadcast this news. Instead, it stupidly waits for the crisis to take place, then it squawks about Israel's imperialism after the fact. Well, if these idiots had complained about it previously and shown live pictures to the world as they were occurring, then nobody would be saying that Israel was so innocent after all.

WHAT WERE THESE IDIOTS IN THE ARAB/MIDDLE EASTERN MEDIA WAITING FOR???
WHERE THEY WAITING FOR ISRAEL TO DROP ATOMIC BOMBS ON DAMASCAS, BEIRUT, OR TEHERAN???
ARE THEY WAITING NOW FOR SUCH AN ATTACK TO TAKE PLACE???




There is no question that Israel is the aggressor and that its action parallel those of Saddam into Kuwait in 1991. The world responded with arms against Saddam because it was fully informed of his aggression as it took place. It is a good likelihood that the world would have responded in a similar fashion against Israel's aggression except for the fact that the Arab/Middle Eastern media stupidly remained silent as Israel took these aggressively criminal acts. On that basis I put an equal amount of blame for the casualties that have taken place upon those media idiots.

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