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YDogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:50 AM
Original message
Big police stand-off in Tampa right now (12:30pm eastern)
I wonder how the recent surge in crime can be tied to bush's fucked up economy and everything tied to his "policies."
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Literate Tar Heel Donating Member (555 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. the heat wave doesn't help either
I think violent crime always tends to surge during a heat wave ... kind of like Dog Day Afternoon (good movie by the way)
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YDogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. It's just miserable out. Hope this turns out okay for all involved.
The scene looks like a car lot for Crown Vics.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
79. It's absolutely beautiful in Sacramento.
Last week it was ridiculous, though- well above 110 degrees for days.
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. Crime is a character issue.
You can't blame politicians for peoples lack of decent morals.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. That statement seems grossly out of touch to me. Do you feel
people are BORN morally "bad"? How do you think a character develops? I really don't want a fight...I just wonder if you've really thought that statement through.
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yes, they bear no responsibility for their conduct!
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 12:08 PM by patcox2
Poor criminals, they are just misunderstood. Gee, officer Krumpke. . .

I got an idea, how about they stop doing crack and get a job?

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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. No, people are not born morally bad.
But it's wrong to break the laws in this country, it's wrong to hurt, rob, rape, kill, or steal from others. People are not forced to do so--it's a choice on their part. It's a morally corrupt choice. No one in the world could force me to be a criminal--nobody 'forces' others. I won't blame my wrongs on someone else.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I feel criminality is largely systemic.
"it's wrong to hurt, rob, rape, kill, or steal from others"

See, this is what many "politicians" do to others who are less fortunate than them. And I feel the less fortunate often feel no other recourse than to fight fire with fire. I don't say what they do is right. I say there is a reason for it and these reasons are rooted in our society. Politicians have very much to do with creating the societies we live in. Therefore, I hold them somewhat responsible for "creating" criminal character.
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Crime is a choice.
Hurting someone else is a choice. It's nice, I guess to be able to blame it on someone else--a politician, but for that to work, it would work both ways. If you want to blame YOUR lapses on Bush, there'd be someone out there who would blame theirs on Clinton or Carter etc. and I hardly think anyone here would think that was fair.

'Tit for tat' is a poor way to order your mind. Getting even by behaving as badly as you PERCEIVE a pol is is childish. That can only build a lousy society. Also, when I think of the ordinary thief, crack addict, prostitute, car jacker, drive-byer etc. I hardly think those folks are up on the latest politics. Try studying criminology, psych, soc etc.--and working with offenders--I have. Believe me, they're NOT thinking about who is in the White House!
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Here is something for you to consider if you will:
This is a video (if the link works okay-you may have to cut and paste it in an open browser window) showing the current destruction of Lebanon. Politicians have everything to do with this. I ask you to consider the children in this video. Do you think they could become "terrorists" one day? I think it is highly likely, after the horrors they've seen. Now these "terrorists" would be called criminals. Do you not hold those politicians who allow this to happen in any way responsible for the actions these children may become a part of when they are old enough to fight back? I do. I don't really have any more to add. I'd just be repeating myself.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14337.h...
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
36. No I don't.
Politicians are NOT responsible for others criminal behavior.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #36
82. Really? Look at this politician...
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 03:07 PM by KansDem


His lies led this nation to war. There have been many, many crimes committed during this time. Yes, he is responsible for those crimes having been committed. Politicians can and do create conditions conducive to criminal behavior.
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. Crime and economics are intimately linked.
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 12:45 PM by DistressedAmerican
Look at the stats. they are clear. Clinton's economy was good and crime went down.

Bush's economy sucks and crime is up. Do you think that is an accident?

Economics is not an excuse. It is a choice and a choice many, mnay poor never make. However, your denial that economic factors are a major influence is very short sighted.

There is a difference between excusing crime and noting that there are underlying economic fators that increase of decrease it on a nationwide basis.

Governmentan economic policy does without a doubt effect the crime rate. That is an undisputed fact.
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
39. However...
...during the Depression there was little crime--but huge economic need, so that theory goes out the window. Bush isn't responsible for bad behavior of criminals. And, like I said, nobody deals heroin to put themselves through engineering school or buy their mom a house.
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conflictgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #39
84. Crime during the Depression
Where are you getting your statement that there was little crime during the Depression? That was the era of Al Capone and Bonnie and Clyde. Alcohol was illegal and many people made fortunes as bootleggers, not to mention that all the people consuming liquor were breaking the law as well. Small-time theft of food was common. The Great Depression was not some statistical anomaly, an era when poor people didn't turn to crime because people back then had more morals or some such. It didn't work that way.

http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe30s/life_2...
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conflictgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
83. Compare to other countries!
Other industrialized nations have better social safety net programs than the US, and not coincidentally tend to have lower crime rates. The US is one of the most violent nations in the Western world. Interestingly enough, the US also has one of the worst disparities between rich and poor in the Western world.

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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
38. THAT makes sense. Thank you.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
37. i blame politicos for locking up potheads while releasing dangerous
Betcha 90% of the troublemakers in this instance have long rapsheets already.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. "it's wrong to break the laws in this country"
Does that apply to "illegal 'immigrants'" too??
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
42. What about violating the Constitution? Repeatedly?
What about the concept of the Role Model?

Joe, Juan or J'Quan Urbanite sees Bush & the Bushcabal lie, steal, lie, kill, lie, etc. with immunity (indeed. LOUD & PROUD!)and figure that's how one gets ahead in the USA. And all too often, they're right.
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patdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. but, but, but bush said "Not ALL poor people are murderers" he REALLY
said that, honest he said it!
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. He also said RIch people don't pay taxes.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
44. They see politicians thumb their noses at the laws of the land and
think it's alright to be a criminal like Bush, or Rush Flemball or all the other corrupt Bush cronies.
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #44
63. That's weak thinking.
They could just as easily see the harm breaking laws does and use that as a reason to NOT do them.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Your personal attack( "That's weak thinking")is noted!
I've seen that type of sneak attack before many times! Too many times!
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #66
76. It's not 'sneak' in the least.
And it's not really an attack. It's just the truth.
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conflictgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
80. So if you had a child that was starving...
Would morals prevent you from stealing food if all other options had been exhausted? What about the moral responsibility to make sure your child is fed - is the moral not to steal of greater importance?

Yes, crime is almost always a choice. There is little justification for many, maybe most, crimes. But very few things in the world are strictly black and white.

Here's yet another illustration of how 'moral laws' are always in a shade of gray: if killing is wrong, how can anyone justify the death penalty? Or war? If you support either the death penalty or war, then you're saying that sometimes there are exceptions to the moral guideline against killing.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Gee. Did You Think Of That All By Yourself?
Duh!
The Professor
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. Another 'winner' in the Character Sperm Lottery.
Let's hear it from the audience! Give it up, folks!
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. It seems to me....
politicians today represent the epitomy of crime and corruption.
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. That doesn't mean I have to be--or you have to be.
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EC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. I hope you remember your "choices" someday when you
feel desperately hungry or cornered....desparation makes criminals...yes, I believe there are some that just "get off" on crime...but I'd say the majority feels forced into it...
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. I have been hungry and cornered.
But that didn't make me take advantage of others. I have worked with offenders, Val Jean and, believe me, they didn't steal a loaf of bread because they were hungry. That's a myth. I can pull a hundred stories off the news --the killings in NOLA, the huge number of murders in D.C this year, the boy on CourtTV that murdered that lady, Andrea Yates, the local sex offender here, the home invasion rape across town, the local wardman that embezzled money, the meth lab, the 22 year-old beat up in the University district, the hit and run that killed a child last month etc. and NONE of those was done because someone was 'hungry', or to buy their mom a house, or put themselves through med school. That's just not the real world--but it makes a nice excuse for those who need one. I don't happen to need one--I take responsibility for my own behavior.

You get the world you make. I'd much rather live in a world where people take responsibility for themselves like I do, then one in which I blame my behavior on George W. Bush!
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #34
47. Ya really lost me at Andrea Yates. I s'pose she's not as crazy as a
rat in a coffeecan. She's just MEAN, at least in your mind, eh?
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. No, I think she's crazy--I do!
She ALSO broke the law and that's why she was in court. Thank God they did the right thing, finally. I do not believe in putting crazy people to death.
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. No, but we can blame the political climate.
And I do blame the political climate, and I suspect I'm not alone.

The Bush administration has waged a "pre-emptive" war of aggression using as its justfication an argument based on distortions and outright lies. The President himself has issued more than 700 "signing statements" that supposedly exempt him from obeying the constitution and other laws of this country.

Tell me what that teaches our children? If a child learns that it's okay for the President to disobey the law, then what?

WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN???

Welcome to DU.
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nickinSTL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. not only that...
but the massive cuts in social programs tell the people that they aren't important.

That contributes significantly to the climate.

When the government is more concerned about creating a war for oil profit in the Middle East than in ensuring that Americans can get jobs and healthcare...THAT contributes immensely, IMO.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Crime was way up under Bush I
Bad times make stress and desperation. Not a good thing.

We all do better (and crime goes down) when we ALL do better. Something ultra rich greed heads and their grubby minions never grasp.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
49. BUt unemployment is nonexistant, remember? LMAO
sometimes I crack myself up.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #49
96. Yeah, cuz all those people who aren't working don't count
You crack me up to. Wanna hanky? We laugh to keep from crying, but is doesn't always work, does it?

:hi:elehhhhna
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. I can't imagine the fool I'd look...
...if I said I stole a car because Richard Nixon made me do it! LOL! If the president--whichever president we have--is behaving badly, it provides as much of a GOOD example of what NOT to do as it does the other way 'round. It's too easy to pout about Bush and blame him for our lack of character. I'm sure many here want to do it, but people DO really know, inside, that THEY are responsible for themselves. You have to have a little bit of strength to be an adult, you know.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. You don't think people can unconsciously internalize
tendencies to malfeasance when they observe it in 'role models'?

It's a subliminable (sic) thing.
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #26
41. No, actually...
...the wrongdoing of politicians is quite an overt thing. That still doesn't make it a valid excuse.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #41
55. Not an excuse, a reason.
...
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. An excuse by any other name...
As long as you use the behavior of someone else as a rationale for your own, it's an excuse.
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. "Our lack of character."
Don't condescend to people here, Mousethin. You know damn good and well exactly the point I'm driving at, and you know I'm as right as rain. Remember all those Republicans who were in fucking tears because Clinton got a blowjob in the White House? IIRC, those same Republicans were distraught because our children's innocence was at stake :cry:. There was no criminality in Clinton's behavior, only salaciousness, yet fine men and women just like you were complaining about the "example" Clinton set for our youth.

Nobody HERE is "pouting about Bush." We're all mad as hell, and justifiably so. If you're not, then you're not paying attention.

It doesn't take strength to be an adult. It takes food, water, shelter, and a lifespan of about 18-20 years to get there. That's what it takes to be an adult.

RESPONSIBILITY is what it takes to be a decent citizen, and responsibility is what the organized crime syndicate we know as the Bush Administration does NOT have, and responsibility is what they are NOT teaching. Their every move, breath, and intention is predicated on CYA strategeries and GimmeMore tax, corporate, and environmental legislation.
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
46. If you wish to blame a lack of character on Bush...
...that is your choice. I don't happen to need to do that--I KNOW I'm in control of my own choices. And I would never give a pol that much power over my life. I choose to be a good person that is of benefit to this society. But that's just me.
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #46
58. YOU are the only one talking about "lack of character."
I am talking about responsibility.

If you wish to continue to mouth off your raggedy Republicanisms of "my own choices," and "I choose to be a good person," then that is your choice.

Meanwhile, the rest of us in the reality-based world know that (1) different people have different choices, (2) some people have more choices than others, and (3) some people wouldn't be able to make a good choice even if the goddamn election was rigged.
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #58
78. Ah yes--everything is relative.
Translation: If it's bad and it happens to me and mine, then it's wrong. If it's a bad me and mine are DOING, then we have a good reason for it, and it's all Bush's fault, and what we do isn't wrong.

Got it.
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #78
88. You're right. And Republicans are the BEST at relativism.
Let's start at the top, shall we?

George W. Bush's signing statements, for example: I wonder if you would care to explain the "choice" he's made to disobey the law more than 700 times?
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #58
81. If you wish to be safe..
...in your homes, with an uncorrupt government, free from rape, murder, theft etc. you'd better hope a lot more people think like I do than think like you do.

Remember, you get the world you make.
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #81
91. A-ha! The Fear Factor! BE VERY AFRAID!!!
:scared: NOT!!!

You make your world, buddy, and I'll make mine. Here, I'll go first:

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
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EC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. You are already looking the fool.
Criminals don't care who does what (Presidents - pols) but they do feel the results of policies made by these politicians. That's why crime always goes up when there are no living wage jobs or money to lend. It does seem that every time there is a Republican majority that money lenders get tight and jobs disappear...how do you expect people to survive? As we saw in Reagan - Bush I there was an increase in money related crimes...shoplifting, bank robberies, theft, etc. I wonder if there is a connection to the political policies?
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #31
57. You get less prison time for violent robbery than drugdealing.
Simple choice, really.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
51. Are you oversimplifying in your Rush to post ...
or what?
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
75. I'm still attempting to get around
your comment that crime was low during the Depression. People gravitated towards family to survive, those that had a solid family unit, but suicide (especially among middle class men) domestic violence, stealing and murder were up. What are you talking about? Some people couldn't afford to protect or provide for their children--some children wound up homeless. And, as workers were laid off, anger and frustration created, law enforcement initiated more strong arm tactics. Of course, they had their Rush Limbaughs of the time on the radio, telling the people it was their fault they couldn't find a job, they weren't creative enough, they weren't ambitious enough--all could be a Rockefeller, Morgan or Dupont!!!!! So it was all those lazy people's fault or all those immigrants taking your job!!!! They deported Mexicans back to Mexico, unfortunately, all those brown people look alike, and they deported some Americans forcibly back to Mexico, also.
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
33. Yes, the other day, I was feeling so oppressed by the Bush admin;
what with the suppression of science (global warming, stem cell research, creationism) and the senate tying estate tax repeal to the minimum wage increase, that I went out and robbed a bank and then raped a woman on the way home.

Damn Bush and his policies for fostering criminality!
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Don't be so dense.
Have a clue: White collar crime.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
65. Pretty Small Sample Size There Patcox
And, fairly two dimensional conclusion being drawn. You know full well that economic policies that fail to promote an expansion of the middle class and the reduction of working and non-working poor result in more crime, in every industrialized society, and have done so for the last 150 years. If you don't know that full well, you have some things to research.
The Professor
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #65
92. There is no inconsistency.
Increased poverty results in increased crime. But that does not excuse any individual criminal, in even a small way, and it does not negate the idea of personal responsibility. I have been a public defender, working to keep these clowns out of prison, and the number one personal trait I found associated with criminals is stupidity. Followed by drug addiction.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. See MLK
Jailed many times.
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. A person can be jailed for the right reasons and jailed for the ...
...wrong reasons. And mistakes can be made, but that doesn't mean there are no standards of rights and wrongs, moral values, and personal responsibility. MLK didn't blame someone else for his getting arrested that I recall; he knew what he was doing was against the law and he did it anyway because it was the right decision for him. I'm sure he thought the law was a bad one--and he might've said so--but he didn't put the locus of control of his behavior elsewhere.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. I just LOVE moral standards.
There are so many to pick from.

:eyes:
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #29
53. Actually...
...in my work with offenders, I found that there was more the problem of them not really thinking about the right and wrong of it at all. So many criminals are not planning for the future or thinking about their behavior--they are just reacting to their next impulse, or they think consequences somehow won't be the same 'this time'.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #53
73. "So many criminals are not planning for the future "
Oh I see...kind of like the neocons and Bush when they invaded Iraq.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #53
87. So, no one is above the law right?
Remember Iran-Contra, where certain governmental entities traded guns for drugs; thus, putting drugs on our inter-city streets? Do you not consider these criminals more dangerous than some petty offenders? And, where are those offenders now? Oliver North is considered by some a hero, for what? Shredding evidence, going against the will of the people (Congress), being a part of a program that put drugs on our streets? You expect others to have honor, to obey the laws, to tell the truth; yet, don't expect it in our leaders? The fish rots from the head down. A CEO that scams millions from those who can afford it least is given a wrist slap, than those who have turned to addictions to escape a miserable reality. I know some people (I've worked with them) that work two, three jobs just to make ends meet for their families---then, the government blames parents for not being with their children, not being responsible for their children. Yes, you have sociopaths in society in all class groups, but economics play an important part in some crimes. When England mechanized the looms, thus leaving people without jobs--jobs they needed to survive, their families to survive-the workers attempted to destroy the looms. Instead of seeing their people's plight, Parliament made a law that made it a death sentence for anyone to tamper with the looms-did Parliament care about whether or not people would no longer be able to feed their families, that many would see destitution, misery? No, they cared about the monied, the entitled. "Are there no work houses, are there no prisons?" When decent jobs become scarce, there are three ways to keep people out of the job market (Sociology 101): school, welfare and prison. Decent employment is dwindling in this country, welfare has been deformed, and education funds have been cut; so does that leave a segment of the population in the corporate run prison system? Prison labor--history definitely seems to repeat-the robber barons have reared their ugly heads again!!!! And what do some people turn to when they are desperate? Drugs, alcohol, stealing, cheating the system? Nothing is black and white!!!
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OilemFirchen Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #53
89. Which is it?
"People are not forced to do so--it's a choice on their part."

or

"... they are just reacting to their next impulse"

Perhaps they choose to react on impulse?
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #53
95. Gee, I wanted to reply to your insightful answer but there's this big
TOMBSTONE in the way.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. Ahh the old personal responsibilty meme...
It would be great if repukes meant it but for som reason they're always skirting it when they get called out.
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. I know, we adults are ruining your good time!
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #54
69. Don't move. Stay right where you are.
:rofl:
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #69
97. Indeed he did
lol
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #45
68. You set the trap.
The mouse took it.
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #68
77. Playing 'gotcha' again?
It's not a trap--and if you can't handle the truth, or an exchange, then you can't. Simple.
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #77
86. What again are you talking about?
Been here before?
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
35. 99.999% of politicians "lack decent morals". can we blame them for THAT?
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #35
59. We can always...
...say that someone who evidences no morals is moral-less. That is simply the truth.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. "Amoral" is still useful.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
60. Not true. Divorce and adultery rates spiked after Clinton's affair....
Oh, wait....no they didn't!

If the WH's economic policies make it impossible for the working class to make a living legitimately then they will turn to crime. It happened under Reagan, it happened under Bush 1, and it's happening under Bush 2. It's that simple. You oppress people economically, and they'll react in anti-social ways. You give the poor incentive to make a decent living (i.e. raise the minimum wage, expand social services) and they'll react positively. Why the right refuses to learn this I have no idea.
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MOUSETHIN Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. In all my work with offenders...
...I never heard ONE of them say they stole food to feed their kids, or pay their rent, or they stole a car because they needed transportation. Not one time did I ever hear that.

And theivery is far from the only crime. Please explain to me how murder, rape, car jacking, crack smoking, assault, drive-by shootings, using heroin, cooking meth, domestic violence, spray painting a bus bench, vandalizing a store, doing a hit-an-run, molesting a child, stalking a former spouse, or visiting a prostitute inceases ones standard of living, or helps in a 'bad' economy?
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conflictgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #62
85. Crime is not always about increasing one's standard of living
Desperate people do desperate things. In my own first-hand observation, people I have known who committed crimes didn't necessarily do so because they wanted to improve their standard of living or "help" in a bad economy. If they turned to car jacking, it was so they could sell the car for a fairly small amount of money. Ditto with burglaries. Doing illegal drugs is a form of escapism when people can't get work and manufacturing those illegal drugs is a way for the manufacturers to make money in a tight economy. Domestic violence, ditto. I have never committed domestic violence and would not, but my husband has been unemployed for six months and I can tell you that the stress of that situation combined by always being around each other is taking a toll on both of us. For someone who was raised around such violence, I could see how they might lash out that way.

None of this is condoning any of the bad actions people make during tough economic times. But desperate times do induce people to take desperate actions.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #62
94. no one here is excusing every crime--
so quit lumping it all together. I guess you didn't have the woman on your cell block who's only crime was attempting to protect her and her child, but California had changed the law a couple of months before she fled her allegedly abusive relationship--that she had to notify the authorities. She married years later, became a teacher-then on America's Most Wanted, here's her ex stating that she just disappeared with the child, didn't know where they are-was concerned for her!!!! It's amazing that the show never mentioned that she was a well loved teacher-no, she was a junior college graduate and he, a well respected Chiropractor. They mortgaged the house to pay for her legal fees, she lost her job and her child-the atttorneys advised her not to fight because it would cost more money that they didn't have-her husband left her because he couldn't take the situation anymore-she lost everything-she spent six months in prison and became nothing but a soulless shell. For what? And then, there's Tommy Chong, what a criminal!!!! Selling bongs on the internet!!!! Was it two years in prison? Must be more of that riff raff you keep talking about. Yet, those who hurt the many, economically, are usually given less sentences. Afterall, it took creative talent to scam so many-I believe that's what Michael Milken's judge thought.
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
90. That's way too oversimplified a statement...
Granted, I can't imagine committing a crime, even if I were poor and desperate. But I've never been poor or desperate.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
93. Morals are subjective. Laws are not.
There is a difference between an accountant stealing twenty million dollars from a corporation and a homeless lady stealing a loaf of bread to feed her children. However, both acts break the law, thus both are criminal. You can't blame politicians for the actions of other people, but you can blame lawmakers for the laws they make or don't make.
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
15. Pic
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 12:30 PM by wakeme2008
http://www.tboblogs.com/index.php/newswire/comments/pol... /

Editors Note: The Hillsborough County Sheriffs Office has demanded that news organizations stop live video feeds from the scene.




..cut..
The Hillsborough County Sheriffs Office says it may have begun with an altercation at a Sweet Tomatoes restaurant.

..cut....

Yipes I ate at Sweet Tomatoes Sunday.... :hide:
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. At a Sweet Tomatoes restaurant??
That's a terrible thing to do at an all-you-can-eat salad bar!! (I love Sweet Tomatoes!)
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YDogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #27
50. I've been to that same restaurant 6-7 times.
And the one in Brandon.
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
70. I have eaten at the one restaurant 50-100 times
:)

One thing I miss up here in Roanoke.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. I was an addict in California - Sweet Tomatoes and Fresh Choice
At least weekly.
I had so much fiber in my diet that I didn't have hemorrhoids; I had rope burns. :evilgrin:
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Thanks for the new restaurant to try
I will be moving mid-state California after my current contract... Fresh Choice.... Sounds good.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. You're welcome, bro. I envy you.
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 02:46 PM by TahitiNut
Fresh Choice and Sweet Tomatoes are both salad bar all-you-can-eat ... and terrific. Their soups and rolls completed any meal. All over the Bay Area and elsewhere.

Don't miss Jamba Juice for the best fruit smoothies ever. Between those three, Vivi's Falafels (in Monte Vista), and Sushi Boat, I had half my week's diet.



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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
28. The Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office
Can go stuff it with their "demand".
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Have they turned into dicks the last dozen years?
When I lived in TPA the sheriff guys were damn cool, and the city cops were mostly assholes.
Hmm.
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YDogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
48. My understanding is that the suspect requested that helicopters back off
... and that law enforcement is trying to accomodate his request if it'll keep someone from being shot. I think they also don't want to have the news broadcast someone being shot.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Of course they don't want the news to broadcast someone being shot
There are too many trigger-happy cops out there who would shoot him as soon as he dropped his gun and raised his hands in the air. The S.O. would hate to see that broadcast live.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
17. Here's a link. I lived near that intersection for several years
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YDogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
67. Police have suspect out of the car and on the ground. (2:37pm)
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 01:38 PM by YDogg
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