Neo-Conservative = Jew

[bryant69]

Remember this chestnut from 2002-2003? Neo-Conservative means jew, so when we Liberals talk about the Neo-Conservative movement, we are really using code amongst ourselves to indicate the "Jewishness" of the people we don't like. Well Republicans, being great recyclers, are bringing it back. Rush spouted it yesterday and Linda Chavez's latest article is about this as well --> http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/LindaChavez/2006/08/...

I responded there, actually.

I'm bigoted against Neo-Conservatives
If by bigoted you mean "doesn't want to see their plans for the country succeed." That seems to be the current conservative definition of bigotry.

If you don't want Fundamentalist Christians to succeed in their goals of criminalizing homosexuality and forcing their faith into the public square, you are bigoted against Christians.

If you don't want Neo-Conservatives to succeed in their goals of taking us into war with Iran and Syria, but think such plans will hurt America rather than help it, you are bigoted against Neo-Conservatives. And apparently Jews. Because the only reason one could oppose another war from the bunch that brought us Iraq is Anti-Semitism.

If you don't want President Bush to succeed in his plans to tear down our Social Security system or drill in ANWR or put Ultra Conservative Judges on the bench, you are suffering from irrational Bush Hatred, another form of Bigotry.

It's easy to find bigots, if you define bigotry as "doesn't agree with me politically."

I suppose the current conflict in Israel, combined with their clear desire to invade Iran and Syria gives the argument new cachet. Still a pretty ridiculous argument.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[KharmaTrain]

1. How Does This Square With Their Own Anti-Semites

One of the biggest flamefests around here is trying to diferentiate being against Israel without being labeled as an anti-semite. I found it quite amusing awhile ago when I was accused of being one because I am critical of Likud and a lot of the politics that has gone on that prolongs the agony in the P/I situation. I also understand that most of the disagreements I have now with people who feel Hamas is all good and Israel is all bad isn't bred in hatred of Jews (as much as it is a romantic image of Hezbollah or just insurgent movements against bigger opponents) is political...not directed at Jews.

That's not the case in the Repugnican party. When they sucked up the bigots, the got the real anti-semites with them. The ones who make Mel Gibson sound like a Rabbi. These are the ones who also hold a lot of power and common cause the the religious fundies...a dirty little secret that a Chavez knows exists but wouldn't dare say publicly. The shell game here is that fundie Christians see Israel as the road to Armageddon and their support for Israel and the instability of the region fit their agendas and sell lots of bibles and fill the donation coffers. Scan the religious radio dial and you'll hear preachers in near orgasm as they think the "Day of Decission" is at hand. However, many of these feel that the Jews are just a convenient vehicle...since once the final battle begins, the Jews will be gone as well. It's part of the narrative...not said publicly, but sure believed private.y.

I honestly believe PNAC has used Israel as a tool more than the other way around. AIPAC and PNAC held common cause and many cross memberships, but he real ideologues on the right only see Israel as a proxy in a bigger picture here. Yep, they're been pushing for Israel to strike at either Syria or Iran for quite some time now.

Cheers...

2. United States funding Israel and really helping them

to get in so deep, they won't be able to get out. However Israel is responsible for their actions whether we help or not.

[KharmaTrain]

6. Israel Lives With Those Actions With Every Rocket Attack

Both sides have been chosen as surrogates in a bigger war...not unlike the old US/Soviet game...this is how PNAC has always viewed the world. Hezbollah has thrived in this atmosphere as well. As long as they vow for the destruction of Israel and there will be no real peace in that region and more reason for right wingers in both Israel and this country to continue the funding of this ugly waste of life...both in Israel and Lebanon and in Iraq as well.

[Ian David]

7. America and Israel are sitting in a bar...

America says to Israel, "Hey, are you gonna let him say that about your mama? Here, borrow my gun..."

The "Roadmap to Peace" is a cookbook, and Israel is the sacrificial lamb for the Apocalypse. The American Christo-Fascists running our country believe that there needs to be a great war in Israel, in which a few thousand Jews will convert to Christianity, and the rest of Israel-- and the Jews-- will be destroyed by a very angry Jesus.

See:

Immanentizing the Eschaton: America's Roadmap to The Apocalypse
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[bryant69]

11. I do think it's important to distinguish between

Neo Conservatives and the Dominionists - they share a lot of views, of course. But for slightly different reasons. The Neo Conservatives believe they can remake the middle east into something peaceful (by killing a lot of Muslims, apparently); the Dominionists believe Israel has to stick around for a few more years at least so we can have the apocolypse.

Bryant

[sendero]

28. You have it backwards..

... Israel put us into Iraq via PNAC. They will eventually get us to go after Iran and Syria. They are our Tom Sawyer, not the other way around.

[Ian David]

33. This administration WANTS Israel to be held-up as a scapegoat for Iraq...

So that when it all goes to shit, there will be an anti-Jewish backlash, resulting in a new Krystalnacht.

But hey, thanks for playing along with the Dominionist Agenda, and adding your two cents to the genocide of my people.

The majority of Israelis were opposed to the Iraq war. They knew it would make Israel less safe.

Whether you know it or not, what you said is exactly what the Christian-Neocons want you to believe. It is a re-packaged and liberal-friendly version of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, that KKKarl Rove has spun into a Trojan Horse of Judenhass.

The great stupidity of Israel's current actions-- aside from the injustice of it-- is that they're doing precisely what the neo-terrorists of Hammas and Hezbollah wanted them to do.

Israel's actions are not only inhumane, but they are self-destructive as well.

Israel is making the world hate them, by insanely falling into the neo-terrorists' trap once again.

The only reason I can think why they would do this is because they said, "Well, fuck it... the world already hates us. We may as well bomb the guys with the rockets."

I have seen some good, conscionable, reasonable people turn on Israel with great anger. Some of that anger is deserved. But what they don't realize is that some of the words they are using are actually the ancient libels of old-time jew-hating and the new Memes of the neo-nazi movement, just re-packaged to seem palatable and reasonable and even liberal.

Before, I compared this to the episode of South Park where they burned a "Giant Letter T" for "Time to Leave," on the lawn of a rich, black family.

A lot of Liberals are burning Giant Letter Ts.

[sendero]

40. I'm sorry....

... I don't believe that for a second. There is no way to spin Iraq into an Israeli failure with the average American, who has never so much as heard of PNAC much less read their manifesto.

I've been angry with Israel for a long time now, they are never going to achieve anything the way they are going about it. I'm just as angry at the "Israel must be driven into the sea" crowd. They are crazy.

The fact is there is a simple reason people are "turning" on Israel. After all these decades they are relying on the same failed policies, which are to bomb/bulldoze/destroy everything is sight, issue massive collective punishment for the actions of a few, and basically do the same idiotic thing we are doing in Iraq - create enemies faster than they can kill them.

[Ian David]

43. Watch the talking heads and administration officials lately...

They keep talking about how America is involved in this struggle to protect our allies like Israel.

Even on "the left," they say Israel is about O.I.L. Oil, Isreal and Logistics.

Israel is being set-up to be the sacrificial lamb on the altar of The Apocalypse, and to be a scapegoat at home for America's "failed" policies.

And by egging Israel on in their unconscionable attack on Lebanon, Bush and his administration are encabling Israel to turn world oppinion against them.

"Hey, you gonna let him say that about your momma? Go get 'im!"

By not calling for a Cease Fire, and essentially giving Israel the Green Light to continue, they're knowingly encouraging Israel's self-destruction.

Bush doesn't want Israel to "destroy Hezbollah." Bush wants Israel to destroy themselves by turning the world against them.

With friends like America, Israel doesn't need enemies.

[sendero]

45. I guess...

...we'll just have to see how it plays out.

In addition to the sound bites you are talking about, I'm hearing "Iran must stop supplying arms to Hezbollah" and "Syria must stop supporting terrorists" and other such nuggets, which I interpret as "we'll have to bomb Iran and/or Syria to protect our good ally, Israel.

Even if we didn't DEMAND a cease fire, that did not prevent Israel from doing it of its own volition. Even if we DID DEMAND a cease fire, Israel would have probably ignored it, as it has ignored virtually the whole world in this regard.

I don't find much to support your take on things.

[Ian David]

47. We'll have to attack Iran and Syria "to protect Israel"...

is exactly the excuse the Bush administration wants to go to war with.

Americans-- on the left and right-- will be angry about that war. And many of them will be angry at Israel.

"Hey, we didn't WANT to attack Iran and Syria... but we had to because America is controlled by The Zionist Occupied Government. It's sure a shame that the US Army has been deliberately recruiting and training White Supremacists..."

Never mind that Bush deliberately ignored UN Resolution 1535 FOR YEARS, which called for stopping the flow of arms to terrorists along Israel's borders.

Willful neglect to catalyze the conflict that Bush wanted...

[KaptBunnyPants]

50. Israelis opposed the Iraq war?

Do you have a source for that? I've tried googling it but have had little luck. I had vague memories of pro-war rallies in Tel Aviv at the time, and I thought they were generally supportive of the invasion.

[Ian David]

66. Behind The Aegis has the link. I can't find it either...

And of course you saw footage of Israelis cheering on the war.

The MSM that wants to scapegoat Israel for the coming disaster made sure you did.

I've also seen Israelis opposed to occupying Gaza shouting "Murderer! Murderer!" at other Israelis at the Israel Independence Day celebration in Boston.

If you want ten different oppinions on something, you just ask five Jews.

But if I recall correctly, there was eighty-something percent opposition to the invasion.

[KaptBunnyPants]

69. Hmm, I didn't know that. Thank you.

nm

[daydreamer]

48. I haven't seen anybody here say that Hammas is all good.

Where do you get it?

[leveymg]

3. Dubya is a neo-con, but he isn't Jewish.

Sure, his version is "Neo-conservatism for Dummies", mixed with "How to Get Raptured, The EZ Reader Version", but his picture book of the Middle-East is most definitely neo-con authored.

[clmbohdem]

4. So, Al Franken is bigoted against Jews?

This crazy logic won't fly.

[bryant69]

12. I think they would describe him as a self hating jew

Ben Shapiro used those words a few week ago to describe any jew with qualms over killing Lebanese civilians.

[DistressedAmerican]

5. k_jerome has said exactally that to me this week.

He believes it too. With definitions like that it is no wonder he has called so many people here anti-semites.

I am SO sick of this whole thing.

[k_jerome]

34. i will give you this...you whine at epic proportions. nt.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[k_jerome]

42. all because you say so...

good luck changing those hearts and minds.

[YOY]

51. Good luck on being the 2nd person on my ignore list

Vile individual...I recall that being said by several of the new amazingly unbanable trolls.

[Marr]

8. Neo-Conservative = Nazi

Well, not exactly a Nazi, but a pretty reasonable facsimile of a Nazi. The closest thing to Nazis that our system will allow for. Of course, they're dismantling much of our system to allow for more extreme Nazi- er- neocon policies.

[madrchsod]

9. there are american citizens who practice Judaism

in the neo conservative movement in the bush government. right or wrong many say they along with christian conservatives are the founders of the neo-conservatives goal of bring the "new democracy" to the middle east.

[npincus]

10. without reading OP, title is offensive.

freedom of speech, I know.

[bryant69]

13. It's an offensive idea

Should I apologize for repeating and flagging up an offensive idea that's out there and being expressed? Because I have no intention of doing so.

[Ian David]

15. I think you've earned a certain license to go out on an offensive limb

I'm willing to tolerate a little more offensiveness from you than from others, because I trust it's not coming from a bad place.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. But, but, but antisemitism is NOT rising in the US

nope at all, none whatsoever...

pease tell me another LIE

[Ian David]

18. Actually, it IS rising...

In 2004, anti-semitic incidents in America hit a 9-year high.

In 2005, there was a slight drop compared to 2004.

Now, in 2006, it's been on the increase worldwide, including in the U.S.

I'd go hunt down the links for you, but I need to re-boot my computerr, and can't open up any more windows or tabs.

In any case, check out:

http://www.SPLcenter.og
http://www.ADL.org

Or, you can go back and look for something I posted about this yesterday.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Oh I know it is

here is my post about this, this same morning, not that many will get it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

By the way, sarcams batteries are fully gone

[Ian David]

29. I kind of figured you were being sarcastic. Anyway, here's a link...

for the benefit of the spectators.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Great post... backs exactly what I said

the defensiveness of those confronted with the truth of their hate is amazing

[mmonk]

19. Antisemitism has always been here.

Irrelevant to the post and its meaning.

[mmonk]

16. Excellent post.

That tactic is alive and well here though unintentional concerning support for Israel with or without limits instead of support for our current government's actions.

[oberliner]

17. Sometimes it is used anti-semitically, other times not

Rush Limbaugh and his ilk are wrong when they suggest that anyone who criticizes neocons is using some sort of code to criticize Jews. They make this argument so as to shield neocons from being criticized. It is pathetic.

That being said, it is important to note that there are some people who do actually use neocon as a code word for Jews. Those people are primarily on the right. Paleocons like Pat Buchanan would be prominent examples of people who do it subtly. Other hard right groups will do it more directly.

The way you can tell the difference is if the person says something like, "Why is our foreign policy being controlled by the likes of Perle, Wolfowitz, and Krystol?"

The real anti-semites will only mention the Jewish neocons, or will make a point of highlighting a number of that group who are Jewish and downplaying (if mentioning at all) the ones who are not.

They will generally go on to showcase two points: first, that these people seem to care more about Israel than about America, and second, these people all happen to be Jewish.

The "acceptable" anti-semites (Pat Buchanan) will do this by simply listing the Jewish names and letting people draw their own conclusions. The more obvious anti-semites (David Duke) will explicitly say that these people are Jewish and that Jews are in control of the US foreign policy.

This of course has nothing to do with people on the left who criticize neocons for ideological reasons having nothing to do with their religion.

It is worrisome to some progressives, however, to see some of the unpleasantness normally associated with the right making its way occasionally into the discussion by those on the left. (implications of Jews "controlling" foreign policy, as one example).

[Lurking Dem]

20. Well said!

[Strawman]

21. Dick Cheney isn't Jewish

There is an obsession with for a variety of reasons Israel that seems central to the neocons, but one doesn't have to be Jewish to share it. In fact, I would contend that the non-Jewish neocons are probably the worst and most cynical and/or crazy. I can empathize somewhat with Jewish neocons given the existential threats the Jewish people have faced throughout their history. I just think that their strategy is strategically and morally wrong.

As for the Dick Cheney's, Israel is merely instrumental in the pursuit of controlling a key economic resource: oil. There isn't a shred of altruism in that kind of position. And for the rapture fanatics, Israel is instrumental in their nutty beliefs about the end of the world.

I recognize that it is very easy for someone in my position (a white-Anglo safely tucked away in midwestern America) to preach restraint and I won't invalidate the fears that Israelis have to make a cheap point. They face a real challenge in changing the nature of their relationship with the Arab world and finding lasting security. I understand the impulse for revenge and the feelings of having had enough, but I can't condone what they are doing in Lebanon right now. Similarly, I can sympathize with the frustration that Arabs in places like Lebanon and Palestine must feel, but I cannot condone shooting rockets full of ball bearings designed to kill as many civillians as possible.

[Generator]

46. Good post

And comparing the real threat to Israel's very existence to the made up bullshit lies all for greedy profit that is the Iraq war-the "neo con" agenda-which I believe is quite real is not the same. Israel faces a real threat. How they are reacting to it right now is most certainly wrong on many levels. But the threat is real.

The threat from Iraq to the US-ZERO.

The threat from Al Queda to the US-compared to Israel, considering our military, our wealth-is practically nil. If anybody did their job in the CIA of FBI or Pentagon or who the hell is supposedly responsible for Americans safety then 9/11 would have never happened unless they wanted to happen.

Neo-con doesn't equal Jew to me. Israel is just an excuse to further whatever agenda these nutbags (Cheney, Rumsfeld etc.) think is the way to gain all power over the middle east, the world and all the resources. All they EVER think of us themselves, and their idea of re-making the world because they believe they are just.

[H2O Man]

22. Nominated.

Interesting post. It is very important to recognize that the neoconservative movement does not equal either Jewish people or the nation of Israel. The neoconservatives that are the moving force behind the Cheney administration do have close relations with some of the political leaders in Israel, and parts of the leadership of domestic groups such as AIPAC. The combination had led to things such as the Plame scandal and the neocon-AIPAC spy scandal. And, of course, to an aggressive military position in the Middle East. But those responsible include as many Christians as any other group. It's not their religion, their ethnicity, their sex or sexuality, the color of their eyes or their hair, or their weight that is the problem. It is their criminal behavior.

[Swamp Rat]

36. k&r

I agree. This cabal will use ANY religion they see fit.

[karynnj]

23. My last conversation (in real life) on neo-conservatives

was at a synagogue event - does that make us all self-hating Jews?

[The2ndWheel]

24. Most neo-cons are Jewish

Kristol, Wolfowitz, Perle, etc. The other members of the blood clique, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Cambone, Krauthammer, guys like that, they're just crazy ass statists. Khalilzad is part of that group, he's not Jewish.

Just another way to use language to control people.

[Lurking Dem]

25. Actually, MOST are WASPS

The Jews get put front and center by the Republicans for a reason.

[The2ndWheel]

30. Well it was Wolfowitz and Kristol that came up with it

The whole PNAC doctrine is their idea. Guys like Rumsfeld and Cheney are just about power, and will do whatever they need to do on that day to keep it, shake hands with Saddam, makes deals with this or that dictator, or sign onto a global military campaign that creates a hegemonic empire, in theory.

[warrens]

26. Yeah, Cheney wears a yarmulke when we're not watching

Typical right-wing spin, trying to get the topic changed so that you can't discuss the things that really worry them.

[leesa]

32. Is Cheney Jewish? Neoconservatism is a political "thought". It uses

Israel as a bludgeon against the Middle East so it gets all tied up with Judaism in that respect, but that's about the end of it's link. The Neocons in Israel and the Neocons in the US both want the Muslim ME conquered, but I think they probably have different ideas of who will rule the roost in the end. It's a recipe for continuous trouble any way you look at it.

[JackNewtown]

35. No, most neocons aren't Jewish

Moreover, neoconservatism is an ideology--an ideology that is rejected by the vast majority of Jews.

[leftofthedial]

37. a buttload of PNAC'ers are Jews.

And are tied to Israel.

[HamdenRice]

41. Actually, the original neo cons were "white ethnics"

People often mis-state the origins of neo-con movement as being "Jewish" New York intellectuals. Actually a better description would be New York "white ethnics" -- and in NY at the time the majority were Jewish.

But several were Irish Catholics: Daniel Monihan and Jeane Kirkpatrick. Others were eastern Europeans, like Zbigniew Bryzinski. It was really a reaction of previously liberal white ethnics against the later phases of the civil rights movement, urban decay perceived to be the fault of African Americans, and the disorders of the 1960s.

[leftofthedial]

44. I wasn't commenting on the genesis of the movement

but on the membership of PNAC.

Leo Strauss was a German Jew.

Very strange bedfellows involved in the neocon movement.

[npincus]

64. so WHAT?

a buttload of Jews are scientists, artists, engineers, musicians, writers, architects, etc. etc. etc.. We are not a single-minded organism with the same goals and objectives.

?????

These threads on "Jews" are getting repulsive.

[ComerPerro]

39. According to some posters here, if you don't support Bush

you hate America.

[bryant69]

49. some posters here? At DU?

I would think it would be quite the opposite.

[YOY]

52. There are a new number of unbanable trolls who use that very same logic

One might assume them to be FReepers, but I don't think that's the case.

[bryant69]

53. You'd have to show me an example

And very specifically that - a member of Democratic Underground accusing someone of hating America because they don't support President Bush.

[YOY]

54. Not doing or saying exactly those words

but using the logic behind them.

Just substitute the XXXX and YYYY for an ethnic group and a particular country in the news...well you get the picture:

"You hate XXXX because they don't support YYY."

[LostinVA]

56. Bingo -- hundreds of posts like that n/t

[bryant69]

58. OK, but that's not the same thing.

It's one thing to say people make bullshit arguments here - you'll get no argument from me on that point.

It's another to say that the MOds are protecting people who accuse posters of hating America if they don't support Bush.

[YOY]

63. There have been more than a few strange happening around here

in the past month or so. If you haven't noticed, you still are not convincing the plethora of us that habve that something is not amiss.

[LostinVA]

55. The poster is right -- that's their logic

If you're against the government, then you hate the people of the country.

I've seen it -- literally hundreds and hundreds of times the last few weeks. It was said to me personally several times on Sunday.

[bryant69]

59. Yeah but that's not the same thing either.

Lots of tap dancing here today.

[ComerPerro]

57. If you don't support Israel, you're an Anti-semite

uses the same logic as if you don't support Bush, you hate America

[bryant69]

60. Yes it does.

But that's not what you said, is it?

[ComerPerro]

61. it is what i said

[bryant69]

62. That's prettty fucking pathetic.

Here is what you said, in toto.

"According to some posters here, if you don't support Bush
you hate America."

Remember. That's what you said. So pretending you said somethign else, whan anybody can just scroll up and verify your words - god, what's wrong with you? Why would you deny it?

You could say "well, it wasn't clear - I was making a parallel between supporters of Israel (here at DU) and Bush supporters (elsewhere), and that's what my statement pointed to."

Bryant

[ComerPerro]

67. its the same thing. some people here are massive hypocrites

[bryant69]

68. And some people can't be honest for three minutes in a row.

But I suppose we all have our crosses to bear.

[Canuckistanian]

65. That's funny, Cheney and Fukuyama don't LOOK jewish

Or maybe they DO go to synagogue and are very very quiet about it.

[pinto]

70. Locking.

Inflammatory title line. And, fwiw, cited website (townhall) is a RW shill site.

See also here for new GD moderator standards:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...