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HOLY CRAP! The deficit is really $3.5 TRILLION!!!!!!!!!!!

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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:32 AM
Original message
HOLY CRAP! The deficit is really $3.5 TRILLION!!!!!!!!!!!
"The federal government keeps two sets of books.

The set the government promotes to the public has a healthier bottom line: a $318 billion deficit in 2005.

The set the government doesn't talk about is the audited financial statement produced by the government's accountants following standard accounting rules. It reports a more ominous financial picture: a $760 billion deficit for 2005. If Social Security and Medicare were included as the board that sets accounting rules is considering the federal deficit would have been $3.5 trillion.

Congress has written its own accounting rules which would be illegal for a corporation to use because they ignore important costs such as the growing expense of retirement benefits for civil servants and military personnel.

Last year, the audited statement produced by the accountants said the government ran a deficit equal to $6,700 for every American household. The number given to the public put the deficit at $2,800 per household."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-08-02-defi...

HOLY CRAP WE ARE REALLY IN THE HOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lets put it with the zeros:
3,500,000,000,000 dollars
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. GOOD GOD! What the hell is wrong with this country?
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 08:38 AM by originalpckelly
Who would vote for people who are stealing $2,800 out of every Americans pocket? That is the official number, and we knew about that, so who would vote for someone to steal $2,800 out every pocket of every American.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. it's not stealing! it's payment for keeping gays single!
right-wingers like their gays single and are happy to pay for the privilege to be in a country where gays are single!
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Well if we give it all to the rich they will trickle some back to us
Just you wait, your trickle is coming, I know it is. Just wait....keep waiting.....it's gunna come I know it.... :shrug: Well maybe next year for sure...
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:37 AM
Original message
Not suprising, depressing but not suprising
I've also read articles(sorry, I can't remember where) that our official debt of 8.5 trillion is in reality more like 14 trillion. Enron accounting at work :eyes:

And sadly, it isn't going to be the rich, powerful or the corporate who are going to pay this off, even though they are the ones who have benefitted the most. No no, it is you and I, the middle class and poor who are saddled with this debt, and it is going to break our back and ruin us all.
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FormerDem06 Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. Now I'm going to sound like a darn republican...
BUT, you can't fund wars, allow millions in tax breaks, AND create a national state where 50% of the people (both the extremely rich and the moderate to extremely poor) don't pay ANY federal income tax, and give benefits to illegals, and expect anything other than this.

Our politicians need a hard dose of reality, if they ran their own houses like this, they'd be in jail.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. "... if they ran their own houses like this, they'd be in jail."
So true.

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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. Hey, I agree with you to a certain extent
However your math is off by quite a few percentage points. The percentage of the population that is considered wealthy is aprox. 5%, while the percentage of the population below the poverty line is aprox. 12%.

I have absolutely no problem with folks living at or below the poverty line paying no taxes. Having been poor and homeless myself, I fully realize that those extra few dollars can mean the difference between eating or starving a great deal of the time.

My beef is more with the wealthy and the corporations. They have received tax break after tax break, have the ability to hide their money offshore, and as recently announced, have less IRS oversight and audits that those of us in the middle class. Yet they receive, per capita, more benefits from the government than the poor or middle class. Yeah, something is fucked up with that picture :banghead:

Meanwhile the gap between the rich and the rest of us continues its record shattering growth, and the rich continue to concentrate this country's wealth into fewer and fewer hands, namely theirs. This is quite frankly criminal, and if it continues it will be the death of this once great country.
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Stick a fork in us, we're done.
...if it continues it will be the death of this once great country.

Sorry, that train has sailed.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Hey, I try not to be that pessimistic
Though what you say is could very well come true. However I think that there is still a chance for us, though we're going to have to take these matters into the hands of the people, and that includes electing leaders who have got the guts, vision and courage to do the right things. Sadly though, judging from the caliber of leadership we've currently got, it is indeed a slim chance indeed.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. To be more correct. The poor do pay tax on all their income
Almost every thing they buy is taxes and if they get a pay check their SS is taken out. It is usually when you have extra income that you can find a place so it will not be taxed. Renters and many are poor also pay the property tax in their rent for the owner of the property that is unless the owners just pay them out of the goodness of their hearts. On the debt I usually look at what Walker tells us. I will say to understand all that stuff I put it into a house hold view and I have just giving up on it. You can not run a house hold like Bush and Congress are running the country and make it. Or I do not think you can. Course when it all comes due Bush will be bike riding around Texas.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. I understand that,
However I responding to the specific charge that the poor don't pay any federal income tax, and they don't. They have the money taken out of each check, but they get it back the next year. Also, I don't consider SS to be a tax, it is a retirement program, one that the RW is desperately trying to destroy.

And you're correct, when it all goes down the tubes, Bush and the rest of the rich will simply abandon this country to its fate, they've got theirs so screw the rest.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. Since I have gone from paying 25000 to 0 a year I understand you
But even if the poor get all they put in back they do pay tax on just about every thing they do. If you drive a car, buy a soda etc. you are paying tax to some gov. even if it may not be to the fed only I think phones and gas the feds get some tax. To run a society like ours it needs a lot of tax to keep it going. And the poor pay on every cent they make while the richer can find ways not to do that.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
27. That doesn't sound "Republican".
That sounds reality-based.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. Well, as we say, figures don't lie but liars figure.
Using unique and deceptive accounting practices seems a lot like an Enron fix.

My question is how long has the US government been using these methods for accounting?
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. What do you mean "if Social Security ... were included"?
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 08:46 AM by Jim__
My understanding is that Social Security is included in the budget numbers, and since Social Security is currently running a surplus, it makes the deficit appear lower. Do you know how they are using that statement?

OK, on reading the article they are talking about the future costs of SS. The other side of that number is that future SS revenues are deliberately understated to make SS look bad. SS is self-funding through another 10 years through extremely pessimistic projections. I don't trust government projections on future SS costs because they are deliberately over-stated - our economy has to grow at a slower rate than it did in the 1930's.Other government projections are not so pessimistic.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Earth to Jim, come back to Earth Jim, come back to reality...
In reality we have a 3.5 TRILLION dollar deficit. DON'T buy into the happy talk of the party leaders. The pukes are full of shit on the things they are for, our side is just as full of shit with SS and Medicare. You can either come to reality now, or later you can experience the painful problems that will arise with both from not doing something to solve the problem.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. Are you familiar with the Social Security projections?
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 09:31 AM by Jim__
I asked a specific question. I asked it because I've researched this. You're not answering my question. What is your basis for that 3.5 trillion dollar number? You read it in a newspaper? What percentage of that 3.5 Trillion dollar deficit is based on Social Security projections? What annual GDP growth was used to arrive at those projections? What has our annual GDP growth averaged over the last 50 years been, or, any 10 year subset within those last 50 years?

Maybe you can bring me back to "reality" by backing up your number. I look forward to the numbers supporting your claim.

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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
31. SS and MC are not included in budget deficit figures.
I guess and VERY LOOSELY AS EXPLAIN in billions of dollars:

318 budget deficit 2005
442 borrowed from excess collection of SS of MC 2005 (760-318)
760 borrowed and subsequently spent 2005
2200 collected in taxes 2005 (I think this 2200B$ has been relatively constant over the last several years.)
2960 Total collected borrowed and subsequently spent 2005 (2200+760)

3500 Article's 2005 contention of what was borrowed considering future obligations
760 we did borrow and acknowledge under cash accounting 2005
2740 Article's contention of 2005's share of future obligations. (3500-760)

I'm guessing further that if some of this were paid, future obligation cost could be reduced. If money had been paid in prior years the future cost for 2005 might not be this high. For example, had SS and MC excess been used to buy gold then placed into Fort Knox -- a kind of lock box -- the 3.5T$ figure would today be much lower for 2005's future obligations. Instead it was invested in USA's democracy's government.

Democracy can be very expensive.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
7. Our GDP is 12.5 trillion a year...
that means we really only had a GDP of 9 trillion. (Since this is deficit spending and is not considered in the actual GDP figures.)
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #7
22. Yes, and fifteen percent of that yearly GDP is spent
Paying off the annual interest on that debt. Not principle mind you but just the interest.
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
8. That Enron accounting system sure comes in handy.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
14. Republicon Economic Plan - screw the middle class, saddle the nation
with staggeering debt, and sit back and count the MASSIVE OIL CRONY PROFITS they have been reaping since they sold us the Iraq Oil War with a pack of WMD lies....
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
15. Lou Dobbs needs this article.
ASAP
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
17. That isn't even the worst of it, I'm afraid
Check out what the balance of trade deficit has been running even since our corporate masters decided to strip this country of industry and decent jobs and send them all offshore.

We have two sources of debt, then: govvernment debt because they want an imperial military but the rich refuse to pay for it; and trade debt because they've offshored all the factories and paychecks and left this country stuck with the bills.

This system is simply unsustainable. Something will have to give, and I'm afraid we will be the ones to suffer the consequences for the greed of the wealthy and corporate and the profligacy of the powerful.

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oc2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #17
34. no, they will blame social security and medicare.

they have been planning this for awhile, I think it will collapse after chimpy leaves office to blame the democrats for the mess, which is partly true in that the dems never realy rallied against the spending and tax cuts by all means like fillibusters and blood and sweat like they should have.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
19. I demand Truth
I feel better for saying it but I am not so delusional as to believe it will ever happen.
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
21. Bush told us he'd run the country like a corporation
and we know how he runs corporations - straight into the ground.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. ENRON
Of course, that was modeled on the pump-n-dump stuff Smirko and his handlers learned about in Arbusto, HARKEN and Spectrum 7.

Junior should be in jail for insider trading.

Same for Neil, who knows all about Silverado Savings and the S&Ls.

Same for Jebthro, who knows all about BCCI.

Marvin knows who knows what.

DRUNKEN COKE-WHORE
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
23. And the outsourcing continues unabated
with Bush administration support. The trade deficit, the budget deficit, and the Republican spin machine on this will make the Democratic wins in '06 and '08 Phyrric victories unless we can start correcting this fiscal insanity NOW !
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NobleCynic Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
25. That article appeared in the USATODAY?
Wow...I suddenly realize how horrible it is that I'm more shocked at the source of the story than the fact that our deficit is that high. What times. What times.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
26. Republicans have devistated our nation. (nt)
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 04:16 AM
Response to Original message
29. Pork-o-rama
Brought to you by assholes still running on the myth of being for small government.

Mention Jesus in your speech? Thats small government. Try to do what Jesus asks? Thats big government. Stephen Colbert
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 04:50 AM
Response to Original message
30. Their plan is to bankrupt the country and use as an excuse to do away
with social safety net programs.
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NewSpectrum Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
32. 3.5 trillion?? Phew........
I can't say I am relieved, but I actually though it was higher...... I could of sworn I saw a higher number on the clock in times square.
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oc2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
33. Clinton lied about the deficit too ...surprise .surprise. .surprise...
those surpluses where in fact lies. Clinton is and was a liar.

"The Clinton administration reported a surplus of $559 billion in its final four budget years. The audited numbers showed a deficit of $484 billion."
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Clinton did indeed have a budget surplus, and said 15T$ to pay the debt.
The accrual accounting might not have been as far away from the cash accounting as investigation into SS solvency was accomplished around that time and showed SS was fine with adjustments that were made.

It is not up to the president without the approval of Congress and Judiciary to change the reporting. Clinton had a Republican Congress and a 5-4 Republican Supreme Court. Bush currently has all three branches of government.

15T$ is how much it would have cost over several years to pay back the debt at it's level when he was president, which is when he spoke it. That would probably included the interest needed since it is treated similarly to a mortgage.

The article carefully includes time Clinton was in power and just as carefully does not separate the two presidents.

Bush's first day, 1/20/2001, saw immediate jump in borrowing. Google: "debt to the penney" and check it for yourself.
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