Peace in the ME, Peace between DU and freeps - are either possible?

[The Straight Story]

While we are not shooting at each other (du/freepland) I see a lot of the same style rhetoric being battered about (and if you haven't see it, stick around GD for awhile). Name calling, fear they want to annhilate us, etc and so on (and of course, the same back from them).

We could say of course we are at peace as no one is getting killed (though the Andy thing is still fresh in mind....) so I am more talking about a peace where two sides stop hating each other and stop breeding hate.

Which side will go first? And that to me is where I see a similarity as well to the ME. Which side will choose the path of kindness, peace, and acceptance first?

I got my flame suit on if it is needed (and having been here awhile I keep it next to the keyboard in a bottle marked Rum).

Once AGAIN - I am not equating the actions of a physical war here - more the war of how we attack people we don't like by demonizing them, poking fun at them, saying they are all garbage if they voted a certain way, are evil, etc and so on - breeding and hate and fear.

As I mentioned - they do it too. And if that is a good enough argument for some, then it is no wonder sides in the ME keep blowing up each other's kids, cause the other side does it too...

LASTLY - this is not to smack down my DU friends and home here. I was just thinking earlier today about how neither sides in the ME seem to be able to find peace and get along, and it hit that we are similar in some veins. Seems dangerous to start down a path like that and in a blanket way demonize whole swaths of people based on a philosophy (or a religion, race, etc - and while you cannot change race like you can the other two the idea of spreading hate based on labels we affix is still crappy to me).

Mankind seems continually at war - and stopping it starts by accepting our differences and finding common grounds we can come together on.

Peace out friends.

[JackNewtown]

1. We would have had peace between Israel-Palestine...

...if only Arafat had died in 1999 or 2000...

[breakaleg]

10. or if Ariel Sharon had not gone to the Temple Mount in that fateful

September day. That sparked the most recent round of fighting. Let's not forget that.

[napi21]

2. It would take the same thing in both situations.

A President that everyone can respect, and who has diplomatic capabilities that would enable him/her to bring people together in some agreement, both in the US & the ME.

At this time, I can only think of one possibility, and I'm not even sure he could do it. That would be Bill Moyers.

[The Straight Story]

3. Never thought about Moyers, good choice.

Heading out to the store and will check replies when I return. Thanks for keeping it civil.

[hfojvt]

6. you really think that much depends on the President?

That we cannot, collectively, do this on our own?

[napi21]

23. Back in 2000, I didn't think the Prez could really do much on his own.

BOY, have I changed my opinion on THAT!

A Prez selects the people around him, the Sec. of State who really SHOUL be a great diplomat, the Sec of Defense who shouldn't be a war monger, NOW the Sec of Homeland Security which I think is way to big for any One person to control, and every other important position in his admin.

YES, I DO believe that much depends on the Prez!

[hfojvt]

25. in running the nation, yes

but even there he has handlers telling him who to pick, and a senate which is rubber stamping his picks and a House which, when Bush proposes a $300 billion tax cut targeted for rich people, passes a $500 billion tax cut targeted for rich people within a few days, and a media that distributes far more propaganda on this issue than information.

But I am talking in our personal lives. The President does not force anybody to hate those who support him or to hate those who oppose him (although he encourages the latter). This hatred is coming from us, not really caused by him. Yes, I hate him and his lying, self-serving shills, but not everyone who voted for him.

[napi21]

28. I think he does. He won't let any oposers into his speeches,

He has people roaming parking lots for things like bumper stickers and has the owners thrown out of his town hall mtgs. You don't think THAT in itself generates hatered and division in the American people?

He's obviously so sure he has enough base supporters, he doesnt have to try to appeal to anyone else!

I still think it's HIS attitude that "I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and I don't GAS about them at all.

[hfojvt]

4. we would have to get peace within DU first?

Do they have peace within FR or do they tear into each other and/or exchange barbs?

I do not engage in collective hate and I am not sure if all of them do either.

[The Straight Story]

7. Yeah, maybe I should have said peace in GD/DU :) (nt)

[Mir]

20. The freeptards bicker at each other

quite a lot just like we do, but not usually over the M.E. Here there are some very sharp divides on Israel among all good people who probably have very similar views on virtually every other issue. The freeptards, on the other hand, are generally blindly supportive of and utterly slavish to Israel and its policies - all circumstances be damned. Israel and America are one and are good - always and without question. The Arabs are bad and evil terrorists and must be destroyed. They are very primitive in that respect.

[movonne]

5. The problem is that this administration doesn't want peace anywhere..

they want war so that they can steal other countries resources and make money on the poor that they sell to.

[SmokingJacket]

8. I know you know this, but there IS Peace between DU and Freeps.

Asking all people to get along and agree is asking them to be inhuman -- the best we can ask of the Middle East is that they continue to disagree WITHOUT guns.

There is nothing wrong with lively disagreement and even a bitter feud, as long as no one gets hurt.

Believe it or not, I don't wish death, harm, oblivion, or even a bad headache on a single Freeper.

Many in my family are freepers. I get along quite well with them in person, as long politics doesn't come up -- then I have to leave the room. It's a perfectly acceptable situation.

I think you're incorrect in equating the "hatred" we have for Freepers with the hatred that's going on in the ME -- and I don't think one thing leads inevitably to the other, either.

[The Straight Story]

12. Well I certainly don't mean all on DU of course

And I agree about the disagreeing part as well (and my family is mostly freeps and fundies).

I am talking more about how some demonize others based on a label here - most my family are good and decent folks who help others, from the poor to those depressed and in nursing homes, etc. Just because someone voted X way does make them evil, terrible, a monster, etc. It may make them ignorant though :)

It is, I suppose, how we disagree and how we characterize those not like us. Hate is bred by such characterizations as myself and others make. I jsut think we can disagree without the hate built into those disagreements.

[SmokingJacket]

19. Well, I agree.

Though I do think a lot of the overheated and maybe even hateful rhetoric we see here is just steam being let off. As long as it's just a message board...

I think in general most DUers are not hateful people, but we've been pushed to an angry extrmeme by current events.

[marions ghost]

31. yes

I think you have to factor in the extreme frustration that comes from being abused and disrespected for a LONG time. It changes people. There is not much reason to be deferential and forgiving to those who do not accord you the same courtesy. I don't think we need to worry about extending olive branches to Freepers. They would only see that as their due, because of course they are always correct. It wouldn't achieve anything. The only way they change is if they change themselves, which is rare.

[Greyhound]

13. As long as you're the one leaving the room to avoid the confrontation

you POV is discounted. That may not be important, but it is what it is.

This particular set of issues (liberty vs. fascism) is not just a difference of opinion, it is right vs. wrong.

[SmokingJacket]

15. I know what you mean, and if it weren't my family, I wouldn't leave.

It would be traumatic for my kids to see me tearing their grandparents and beloved uncles a new one, as much as I would like to.

It's a very conscious decision I've made to stop the political fighting in my family. I'm not certain it's the right one, but I just don't want to let George and his friends to destroy my family. I hope someday they'll see how wrong they were. (though I'm not holding my breath)

[Greyhound]

22. I understand and sympathize with your position. I have the luxury

of telling my version of your relatives to go fuck themselves. I don't talk to them and they don't talk to me and I'm totally fine with that.

At least we have DU & other outlets, for the time-being anyway. :grouphug:

[The Straight Story]

16. And I think you hit the crux of all these issues:

Right vs Wrong.

The folks in the ME each see the other side as wrong, so they won't compromise or come to the table.

And in today's world - might makes right (as does the media).

Where it cannot make right is in the mind of fundies on all sides. We are liberal fundies, they are rw ones, then there are similar factions in the ME and other places around the globe.

Right vs Wrong depends on one's own definitions - even when all would mostly agree killing innocents is wrong some try to make it right by saying that it just happens.

[Greyhound]

21. I don't think that applies to this case for one reason. We (the left)

don't advocate forcing others to do anything, we don't insist they live by our rules, only that they let others do as they wish. They OTOH, are attempting to force their will on everybody else.

Am I wrong?

[The Straight Story]

32. Partially wrong I think

Let me give an example:

When my mom was alive she bitched about local dems making new laws about everything from smoking to garage sales to seat belts. She felt it was they who were dictating morals and she just wanted left alone.

One group has it's ten commandments, the other has it's many commadments they want to impose to make your life better. Some don't see the big difference in it all - they still see people wanting to control them.

I guess the question is - whose life do we want to control today?

[Greyhound]

33. I'm missing your point.

Your Mom was right in the examples you gave. The laws mentioned are not progressive and are, if fact, good examples of the nanny-state mentality that has destroyed our party, by chasing people away while the re:puke: said they wouldn't do this kind of thing. Well, we all know they were lying, but the point is that that's a big reason so many have left the Democratic Party for the others.

My position is that it need not be an either/or choice, the left-wing fascists are just as objectionable as the right-wing fascists, so we need to get rid of them all (the fascists).

[Taxloss]

9. All together now ...

Combined DU/FR/Hezbollah/Zionist chorus: "BUT THEY WANT TO DESTROY US!"

See, we're already in agreement. There's common ground. And we're all fighting over it.

[The Straight Story]

14. Fighting is one thing

Name calling, labeling ad hoc, etc is another (and hell, I am more than guilty of it myself - was just doing some introspection about hate, labels, and why so many all over hate each other).

Hate, I don't think, will stop. And therefore I really don't think the wars will either.

We can't even find it within ourselves at times to treat those we disagree as fellow humans worthy of some standard respect (ie, they are tards, evil, garbage, etc).

[warrens]

11. When all the FRetards deploy to the Middle East

There will be peace between us. Until the survivors return, that is. All six of them.

[MrSlayer]

17. If by some chance the U.S. was invaded I'd fight beside any Freeper.

Something like that would push politics to the back burner in a hurry. Of course only something like that would cause us to join sides and we'd be back to bickering after it was over.

[antigone382]

18. I've never understood why the two boards don't leave well enough alone.

It irritates me to no end that some of them come over here just to disrupt...it's an asinine waste of everybody's time...but there are DUers that do the same over there, so it would be kinda hypocritical to complain about it. To disruptors on both boards I have to ask: just what exactly is the point of "infiltrating" a political discussion board? Even if they don't see right through your first couple of posts and delete your ass, you aren't gonna change any minds or "make them think." You're not gonna uncover any big political secrets, because the boards are public anyway. You can cherry-pick the most illogical, grammatically-challenged, poorly spelled posts and repost them on your own board, but what for? So your side can have some fun ridiculing them, while patting themselves on their backs for their superior intellect? What exactly does that kind of mental masturbation do to further your cause, besides make you feel like a badass?

People on both boards play their little back-and-forth, high school games trying to one-up each other, and all it does is piss people off, inciting more of them to disrupt and create hell for the mods. I don't claim to speak for Skinner, but I'm pretty sure if you asked him he'd rather NOT have DUers go bother freepers on their own site, because a) it creates more shit for him to deal with, and b)it's childish. Sure, if all DUers quit going over there trying to start shit (not that I think that's going to happen), some freepers might still come over here; but at least we could claim the moral high ground.

I have no desire to "infiltrate" FR, I have no desire to read anything written there. I already KNOW that I disagree with most of what they believe, that's why I'm HERE--and I'm pretty sure the majority of freepers feel the same damned way. As far as I'm concerned, they can do what they do, and I'll do what I do, and never the twain shall meet. So why do some feel the need to perpetuate this kind of immature bullshit?

:rant:
:hide:

[Swamp Rat]

26. Exactly!

Tudo bem moça? :hi: :hug:

I don't go over there to mess with them, but when they leave their zoo to come here, then they are fair game. :D



My default question for those knuckle-draggers who stray from the farm is, "if you voted for Bushler why the HELL aren't you in Iraq supporting the troops by fighting like a man? Age and prior service DO NOT COUNT!" ... *crickets*

[McCamy Taylor]

24. Peace in Middle East is desirable AND possible. DU-Freep peace?

No way! What would be the point? That would be something like Salon. This is supposed to be a left wing biased forum. Freep is supposed to be a right wing biased forum. We are supposed to catch them when they come over here and try to disrupt our discussions and start their divide and conquer wars.

Debate exercises the mind! Propaganda wars teach us how to do effective pr!

"The questioner who sits so sly/Shall never know how to reply/

He who responds to words of doubt/Doth put the light of knowledge out"

William Blake

[SoCalDem]

27. Everyone has the right to their own beliefs, BUT they don't have the right

to IMPOSE those beliefs on others.. It all boils down to the Golden Rule.. With that in place, problems go away..

Zealots always know what's best for everyone else, and are insistent on having their way..at any price.

so...if people would/could just leave each other alone (the Mom in me speaking) we could all get along..

It's always just about tolerance..

[The Straight Story]

29. Got to argee with you on that!

The golden rule solves a lot of issues.

[ComerPerro]

30. FReepers want to kill us cause we are commie fag-lovers

there will be no peace until they kill us all