Hamas retaliated for an Israeli kidnapping . . .

[G2099]

. . . of two of its citizens in Gaza, by taking one Israeli soldier hostage.

Is this true?

[davidinalameda]

1. Hamas doesn't have citizens

terrorist groups usually don't

[SquireJons]

5. Um... they do now.

Remember the election? They are the legitimate government representing the Palestinian people, so they do indeed have citizens. Even Hezbollah has a political wing, is elected to Lebanon's parliament and therefor has citizens. The term 'terrorist' is pejorative and depends on your perspective. If random killing is the measure, than Israel is even more terrorist than their neighbors... and expansionist, authoritarian, theocratic... and so on.

[davidinalameda]

8. I forgot that they're part of the Lebanese government

so does that mean that the Lebanese government is allowing Hezbollah to launch rockets into Israeli terrority and does that mean that the Lebanese government is allowing Hezbollah to kidnap Israeli soldiers?

if so, then Israel has justification for going into Lebanon

and do you remember the Israeli election, in which the voters elected a government which pulled settlements out of the land ceded to the Palestinians?

expanionist? hardly

authoritarian? it's a democracy

theocratic? hate to break it to you but the government is secular, unlike Hezbollah which wants to establish an Islamic state

any group that hides in populated areas and launches rockets over the border is terrorist; any group that calls for the destruction of a country and its people is terrorist

sort of like redneck jokes-if you send suicide bombers into another country with the sole purpose of killing as many people as possible, you may be a terrorist

[SquireJons]

10. A few corrections

The post asked if Hamas retaliated for kidnappings in Gaza. Hezbollah in Lebanon is another matter. I do believe that the Lebanese government at least tolerates the Hezbollah militia even if it doesn't actually work with it. A week ago, Hezbollah militants patrolled areas in conjunction with the regular Lebanese army.

The current conflict in Lebanon was initiated by Hezbollah, certainly. It is far less certain that the Lebanese government knew of their plans and since Syria supports Hezbollah, and still dominates Lebanon, it probably couldn't do anything to stop them even if it wanted to. The real question is proportional response. Is the death of 8 soldiers and the kidnapping of 2 worth the lives of hundreds or thousands of Lebanese civilians? Is it worth destroying the infrastructure of an entire neighboring country? Does Israel really want refugee camps on all of its boarders? Refugee camps make far better recruiting grounds for militants than do middle class cities.

If I remember the Israeli election correctly, there was no mandate for pulling out of occupied territories. That policy was initiated by Sharon unilaterally and only because he judged them to be unsustainable, not because it was the moral thing to do. With hundreds of illegal settlements located throughout lands captured in wars that Israel started (1956, 1967, 1973) I would have to say yes, Israel is expansionist. In fact, that is the official position of Likud. Certainly not every Israeli citizen agrees with this policy, but the government has pursued a 'greater Israel' policy for decades. Take a look at the boarder of Israel when it was founded verses what they are now and it is undeniable, even if they do give back a few scraps of unusable land.

And yes, I think from the perspective of non jews, Israel is definitely authoritarian. Millions of people who live inside of what Israel now considers its boarders are non jews, have no rights, can not vote, can not travel, can not work and are subject to indiscriminate death. That fits my definition, even if they don't have a dictator and elect a jew every few years. The U.S.S.R. had elections too, so does Iran. That doesn't make them representative democracies.

As for theocratic, if only jews can vote, then it's theocratic. And there are special jewish law courts that have jurisdiction over many of their laws. The fundies may be bat crazy in this country, but we haven't gone that direction... yet.

I am not really singing the praises of Hezhollah. They, like the I.R.A. try to play both sides of the game, while not really respecting democratic institutions. But to be fair, Israel is far more violent, oppressive to non jews and a danger to the stability of the region. I wish Israel had never been created. Many prominent Americans and Europeans felt the same way when the country was created, and not out of anti-semitism. It's a bit like mixing a nitrogen with a good bit of glycerin. Not a very good idea, and now we all have to deal with it.

One mans terrorist is another mans patriot. England considered all jewish militants to be terrorists because they were violent and responsible for the deaths of many in the English army. Now they are considered founding fathers and hero's in Israel. In Algeria, the french considered those that bombed cafes to be terrorist during their struggle for Independence from France. They would respond to attacks by bombing suspected villages. The Algerians response was, "give us your bombers and you can have our baskets." It's much the same way in the Middle East now. If they could, I'm sure the Arabs would much rather attack Israel with tanks and ships and planes. You use what you have.

I seem to remember another conflict a while back, where a disciplined regular army endured the irregular attacks of militants who wore no uniforms, hid among the populous and fought a guerrilla war. It was called the American Revolution. You may have heard of it.

[davidinalameda]

15. you're comparing Israeli elections to those in the USSR?

you've got to be joking

you need to go back and look up the term "theocratic" and the fact that not only religious Jews can vote; for that matter, I believe that Arabs living in Israel have the right to vote as well

I'd have to check on that one but you're wrong

and please don't compare Hezbollah to those who fought in the American Revolution-that's one of the silliest comparisons that I've ever seen

and the Americans were organized, they did not hide behind civilians and target British population centers

[SquireJons]

21. "[the continental army did not] target British population centers"

Wrong. While it was pretty hard to cross the pond without a navy, the continental army and irregulars not only hid among civilians, they dressed as civilians as well. Plus they burned New York City and abused it's citizens, (including the imprisonment of British citizens) because of their Tory sympathies. Call things what you want, but back it up with specifics. Silly is as silly does.

As for comparing Israel with the U.S.S.R., I kind of feel that is being unjust to Russia. As far as I am concerned, Israel is a thug nation, bent on control of the area promised jews by god to Abraham. At least the U.S.S.R. had an egalitarian principle it thought it was fighting for. Turns out they were just as bad as the systems of government that they opposed, but that's power for you.

As for the Israeli legal system, a bit of research shows that you are right in asserting that Arab Israeli's are citizens, but in the same vane as blacks being citizens of the Jim Crow South. Here's a snippet from Wikipedia:
~
In July 2006, the Israeli Government decided to brand all Arab communities in the country as 'class A' development areas, thus making them eligible for tax benefits. This decision aims to encourage investments in the Arab sector<11>

According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied territories, the Israeli government "did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens."<12>

Examples of what the State Department report found include the following:

According to the report, Muslims enjoy full freedom of religion and government "did not affect the rights of Muslims to practice their faith" according to "Legislation enacted in 1961 afforded the Muslim courts exclusive jurisdiction to rule in matters of personal status concerning Muslims. Secular courts have primacy over questions of inheritance, but parties, by mutual agreement, may bring cases to religious courts. Muslims, since 2001, also have the right to bring matters such as alimony and property division associated with divorce cases to civil courts in family-status matters."
"According to a 2003 Haifa University study, a tendency existed to impose heavier prison terms to Arab citizens than to Jewish citizens. Human rights advocates claimed that Arab citizens were more likely to be convicted of murder and to have been denied bail."
"government spending on children was proportionally lower in predominantly Arab areas than in Jewish areas. ... According to the Government's February 2002 report to the U.N., government investment per Arab pupil was approximately 60 percent of investment per Jewish pupil. ... According to Human Rights Watch, during the year, the Government provided 1 teacher for every 16 Jewish primary school children compared to 1 teacher for every 19.7 Arab children."
"The Orr Commission of Inquiry's report ... stated that the 'Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory,' that the Government 'did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner.' As a result, 'serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system, and substantially defective infrastructure.'"
The Or Commission report also claims that activities by Islamic organizations such as the aforementioned society may be using religious pretenses to further political aims. The commission describes such actions as a factor in 'inflaming' the Muslim population in Israel against the authorities, and cites the al-Sarafand mosque episode, with Muslims' attempts to restore the mosque and Jewish attempts to stop them, as an example of the 'shifting of dynamics' of the relationship between Muslims and the Israeli authorities.<13>

"In November, the Israeli-Arab advocacy NGO Sikkuy's annual report stated that 45 percent of Arab families were poor, in contrast to 15 percent of Jewish families, and that the rate of infant mortality in the Arab sector was 8 out of 1,000 births--twice that of the Jewish population."
"According to a report by Mossawa, racist violence against Arab citizens has increased, and the Government has not done enough to prevent this problem. The annual report cited 17 acts of violence by Jewish citizens against Arab citizens. ... A Haifa University poll released in June revealed that over 63 percent of Jews believed that the Government should encourage Israeli Arabs to emigrate."
"Approximately 93 percent of land in the country was public domain, including that owned by the state and some 12.5 percent owned by the Jewish National Fund (JNF). All public land by law may only be leased, not sold. The JNF's statutes prohibit the sale or lease of land to non-Jews. In October, civil rights groups petitioned the High Court of Justice claiming that a bid announcement by the Israel Land Administration (ILA) involving JNF land was discriminatory in that it banned Arabs from bidding."
"Israeli-Arab advocacy organizations have challenged the Government's policy of demolishing illegal buildings in the Arab sector, and claimed that the Government was more restrictive in issuing building permits in Arab communities than in Jewish communities, thereby not accommodating natural growth. In February, security forces demolished several homes allegedly built without authorization in the Arab village of Beineh."
"In June, the Supreme Court ruled that omitting Arab towns from specific government social and economic plans is discriminatory. This judgment builds on previous assessments of disadvantages suffered by Arab Israelis."
"Israeli-Arab organizations have challenged as discriminatory the 1996 "Master Plan for the Northern Areas of Israel," which listed as priority goals increasing the Galilee's Jewish population and blocking the territorial contiguity of Arab towns."
"Israeli Arabs were underrepresented in the student bodies and faculties of most universities and in higher professional and business ranks. The Bureau of Statistics noted that the median number of school years for the Jewish population is 3 years more than for the Arab population. Well educated Arabs often were unable to find jobs commensurate with their level of education. According to Sikkuy, Arab citizens held approximately 60 to 70 of the country's 5,000 university faculty positions."
"Israeli Arabs were not required to perform mandatory military service and, in practice, only a small percentage of Israeli Arabs served in the military. Those who did not serve in the army had less access than other citizens to social and economic benefits for which military service was a prerequisite or an advantage, such as housing, new-household subsidies, and employment, especially government or security-related industrial employment. Regarding the latter, for security reasons, Israeli Arabs generally were restricted from working in companies with defense contracts or in security-related fields. In December, the Ivri Committee on National Service issued official recommendations to the Government that Israel Arabs not be compelled to perform national or "civic" service, but be afforded an opportunity to perform such service".
In February 2006, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that the government education development plan discriminated against Israeli Arabs and mandated that the government should come up with a new plan within a year.

A poll commissioned by an Arab advocacy group, the Center for the Struggle against Racism, found that 63% of Jews believe Arabs are a security threat; 68% of Jews would refuse to live in the same building as an Arab; 57% of Jews believe that Arab culture is similar to Israeli culture; and support for segregation between Jews and Arabs is higher among Jews of Middle Eastern origin than those of European origin. <29>

In May 2006, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an op-ed noting that as part of a coalition agreement with an ultra-Orthodox party, child benefit of 500 Israeli shekels (about £60) would be paid to low-income ultra-Orthodox Jews, but not to low-income Palestinian citizens of Israel.<14>

Human Rights Watch has claimed that cuts in veteran benefits and child allowances based on parents' military service discriminate against Arab children, however "The cuts will also affect the children of Jewish ultra-orthodox parents who do not serve in the military, but they are eligible for extra subsidies, including educational supplements, not available to Palestinian Arab children."<30> The organization further blames Israel for operating "two separate school systems, one for Jewish children and one for Palestinian Arab children".<31>
~

It's a complex situation, and nobody is acting in an ethical way, but there is no sense in apologizing for Israeli brutality. I'm glad I don't live there, and I think that any american jew who supports them ought to move there.

[rman]

16. Which part of "citizens in Gaza" did you not understand?

[Tom Joad]

2. Palestinians are people, and they are subject to kidnapping all the time

held without charge for months. sometimes these are children.

[DistressedAmerican]

3. In many cases DECADES.

No charges. No tril just detained indefinitely.

[TahitiNut]

4. Israel called them "arrests" - a doctor and his brother.

Let's not forget the IDF bombing of the Palestinean home, suspected to be a Hamas leader's house, killing a family of twelve - and no Hamas leader.

Everyone is "retaliating."

"The devil made me do it." :shrug:

[G2099]

7. Do you have a link to this story?

[TahitiNut]

9. Well ...

In an overnight raid into the Gaza Strip the IDF have abducted two brothers. The Israelis claim that the brothers are members of Hamas. Hamas denies this and states that the two brithers are merely the sons of a Hamas member.

The two captured men were brothers Osama and Mustafa Abu Muamar, sons of Hamas activist Ali Muamar.

The raid started at 0330 in the village of Umm al-Nasser, near the Rafah refugee camp and only one kilometre from the Israeli border, Palestinian sources say. An eyewitness, Ali Muamar told Reuters news agency he awoke to see Israeli troops scaling down his wall.

"They blindfolded and handcuffed me and started beating me up with the butts of their rifles and kicking me," said Mr Muamar, who was treated in hospital for wounds.

Mr Muamar said the soldiers seized his computer and left after about an hour.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/76854

Over the past 10 months, Israel has carried out “arrests” (i.e. kidnappings) and assassinations of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. The most recent Israeli “incursion” took place just two days before the capture of Shalit, when Israeli security forces invaded Gaza and kidnapped two men, a doctor and his brother, from their homes.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=BUL20060719&articleId=2751

And finally we can ignore the violation of Palestinian territory by Israeli commandos who infiltrated Gaza a day before the Palestinian attack to kidnap two Palestinians Israel claims are terrorists. They have been “disappeared”, doubtless to be be held in administrative detention, where they can denied access to lawyers, the courts and, of course, justice.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4852.shtml

NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, of course, I have no inside information, other than what's available to you and listeners. What's happening in Gaza, to start with that -- well, basically the current stage of what's going on -- there's a lot more -- begins with the Hamas election, back the end of January. Israel and the United States at once announced that they were going to punish the people of Palestine for voting the wrong way in a free election. And the punishment has been severe.

At the same time, it's partly in Gaza, and sort of hidden in a way, but even more extreme in the West Bank, where Olmert announced his annexation program, what’s euphemistically called “convergence” and described here often as a “withdrawal,” but in fact it’s a formalization of the program of annexing the valuable lands, most of the resources, including water, of the West Bank and cantonizing the rest and imprisoning it, since he also announced that Israel would take over the Jordan Valley. Well, that proceeds without extreme violence or nothing much said about it.

Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You don’t know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate. The next day, something happened, which we do know about, a lot. Militants in Gaza, probably Islamic Jihad, abducted an Israeli soldier across the border. That’s Corporal Gilad Shalit. And that's well known; first abduction is not. Then followed the escalation of Israeli attacks on Gaza, which I don’t have to repeat. It’s reported on adequately.

The next stage was Hezbollah's abduction of two Israeli soldiers, they say on the border. Their official reason for this is that they are aiming for prisoner release. There are a few, nobody knows how many. Officially, there are three Lebanese prisoners in Israel. There's allegedly a couple hundred people missing. Who knows where they are?

But the real reason, I think it's generally agreed by analysts, is that -- I’ll read from the Financial Times, which happens to be right in front of me. “The timing and scale of its attack suggest it was partly intended to reduce the pressure on Palestinians by forcing Israel to fight on two fronts simultaneously.” David Hearst, who knows this area well, describes it, I think this morning, as a display of solidarity with suffering people, the clinching impulse.

It's a very -- mind you -- very irresponsible act. It subjects Lebanese to possible -- certainly to plenty of terror and possible extreme disaster. Whether it can achieve any result, either in the secondary question of freeing prisoners or the primary question of some form of solidarity with the people of Gaza, I hope so, but I wouldn't rank the probabilities very high.
http://democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/14/146258

Israel's massive military attack on civilians and infrastructure in Gaza is supposed to be retaliation for Palestinian capture of one Israeli soldier. But there are up to 9,000 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, many in administrative detention without charge or trial. The day before the capture, Israel had invaded Gaza and kidnapped a prominent doctor and his brother and took them to parts unknown.

That same fateful day, Hamas and Fatah signed an agreement for unified negotiations with Israel, signaling Hamas' recognition of Israel. Hamas has maintained its ceasefire for 18 months.

The collective misery of 1.3 million Palestinians -- including 700,000 deprived of electricity, water, sewer service and fuel for the indefinite future -- reminds one of Hurricane Katrina. That was a natural disaster. Gaza's is man-made. Israel's mass punishment for the capture of one soldier is beyond rational proportionality.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/sfl-60forum26jul28,0,6149016.story?coll=sfla-news-opinion

That's a sample from across the ideological spectrum. Is that enough? :shrug:

[TahitiNut]

13. Interesting ...

... how I hear the crickets chirping whenever the facts indicate that assigning blame for "provocation" isn't that simple.

[otherlander]

6. Governments do tend to do that...

justify themselves with the crimes of their enemies. And claim that they're acting in the name of their people. But it has nothing to do with the people. It never does. The powerful compete with each other, draw boundaries and declare alliances, but the people affected die without any boundaries, and gain nothing from the suffering of others.

[Selatius]

11. Noam Chomsky mentioned this on Democracy Now

Everybody knows about the abduction of Gilad Shalit, but nobody heard about what happened on the day before, June 24th, with the abduction by IDF or perhaps Mossad agents of a doctor and his son. Israel claims they are Hamas members. There has been no word on their fate.

[cali]

12. The only problem with that theory

is that the arrest/kidnapping/whatever of the Palestinians happened a day before the capture/kidnapping/whatever of the Israeli soldier, and it takes weeks if not months to build a 300 yard tunnel, and that's how the Palestinians got into Israel.

[rman]

17. You presume the tunnel was dug specifically

for the purpose of kidnapping that soldier.

[oberliner]

14. No, it isn't true

Hamas has been attempting to kidnap Israeli soldiers in order to exchange them for Palestinian prisoners for many years.

[rman]

18. Perhaps for that attack on Gaza beach

?

[oberliner]

19. perhaps not

"There is no solution to the prisoner issue except with the kidnapping of soldiers of the enemy and exchanging them with our own prisoners."

Sheik Ahmed Yassin, Hamas co-founder
Jan 3, 2004

Of course, it bears mentioning that he was killed by Israeli forces two months after making that statement, along with his bodyguards and eight bystanders.

It also bears mentioning that two weeks after he made the above statement a Palestinian suicide bomber blew herself up at the Erez crossing, killing at least four Israelis and wounding seven other people.

[davidinalameda]

20. sorry if I don't feel any regret for Israel "kidnapping"

"suspected" terrrorists