Israel has a right to exist, and a right to defend itself...

[SaveElmer]

But does not have the right to engage in criminal neglect...

This disaster can be laid at the feet of the apparently incompetent and uncompassionate government in Israel, as well as George Bush and his "revelationist" foreign policy with regards to Israel...and I believe any notion that Condoleeza Rice was is anything but a figure head at State has been disabused...

Can you imagine anything like this occurring with Bill Clinton as President?

[umtalal]

1. Yes, the first Qana massacre happened in his shift in '96

Dems and repukes are one of the same in terms of this so precious usrael.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Are you forgetting Jimmy Carter?

He was able to get Israel together with its enemies at that time and sign a peace treaty. What repukelican has done anything close to that?

[umtalal]

4. You are right. But he/she asked about Clinton n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. And here is your response:

"Dems and repukes are one of the same in terms of this so precious usrael."

I pointed out that one Dem, Carter, cannot be put in this basket of ineffectiveness when it comes to middle east conflicts. So, no, Dems and pukes are not one of the same.

[ProgressiveCritic]

5. Carter also midwifed the birth of the Iranian Revolution

Don't forget, that Carter supported the heinous Shah of Iran, whose savage corruption gave birth to the revolution. Much as I admire him now, Carter has plenty of blood on his own hands.

Do you really think Clinton was substantively better for the people of the ME?

I would wager that the Iraqis who suffered under UN Sanctions in the 1990s would beg to differ.

Democrat or Repuke, if the goal is to rule the ME (by proxy or by dictators stooges like Mubarak) for the benefit of the world energy market, it makes no difference which party is in power.

[ShortnFiery]

10. That's hype! Carter was NOT served well by his foreign advisers ...

As I understand it, Carter was less than impressed with The Shah but not informed of the increasing unrest within Iran. :thumbsdown:

Plus remember, NO HOSTAGES were killed on Carter's watch. :(

[Bucky]

15. Oh boy, another "brand new" neocon poster (w/no star, BTW).

low post count
no donor star
short paragraphs
pro-Israel stance
"insider" shorthand (like "ME" for Middle East)

I smell a "cyber-solder"

[ProgressiveCritic]

25. OMG ROTFLOL!!!!

I am as far left as they come!

Pro Israel??? My DH is Palestinian! I've lived in Ramallah and Khan Yunis!!! LOLOLOL!!!

I recently changed my username (what a PITA that was)...

NEOCON? Coudln't be further from the fact!!!!

I just think the issue in the ME isn't Dem or Repuke -- they both suck where Palestine is concerned, where people with any legitimate struggle are concerned -- it's corporatism!

There may not have been hostages killed while Carter was in office, but I don't measure events and administrations by how good they were for Americans. Carter's position was a DISASTER for IRANIANS!

[ProgressiveCritic]

28. i am *still* LOL'ing!

Add to that mix I listed above that my family is Muslim!

Pro-Israel neocon.... LOLOLOL!!!

Thanks for the chuckle, really... I needed one today!

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. Clinton did not invade an innocent country in the ME

Clinton did not lie to the American public and create a reason for an insane invasion.

I would wager that our invasion of Iraq, under el pretzeldente, has caused far more Iraqi deaths than the sanctions under Clinton.

And I still say that Carter at least tried to bring peace to the ME. El pretzeldente has done no such thing.

[ProgressiveCritic]

26. Carter tried to put a band-aid on the situation.

Any real peace in the ME has always -- and WILL always -- revolve around a just solution for Palestine.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. I strongly disagree

The time that has elapsed since the Camp David Accords has left no doubt as to their enormous ramifications on Middle Eastern politics. Most notably, the perception of Egypt within the Arab world changed. With the most powerful of the Arab militaries and a history of leadership in Arab world under Nasser, Egypt had more leverage than any of the other Arab states to advance Arab interests. Sadat's alacrity at concluding a peace treaty without demanding greater concessions for Israeli recognition of the Palestinians' right to self-determination incited enough hatred in the Arab world to bring about Sadat's assassination in 1981. Egypt was also suspended from the Arab League from 1979 until 1989.

Also, the Camp David Accords prompted the disintegration of a united Arab front in opposition to Israel. Egypt's realignment created a power vacuum that Saddam Hussein of Iraq, at one time only a secondary consideration, hoped to fill. His ambitions became visible in 1980 when he ordered the invasion of neighboring Iran (Iran-Iraq War), starting a chain of events that would later lead to an invasion of Kuwait in 1990 (followed by the Gulf War), then ultimately the toppling of his own regime in 2003.

Lastly, the biggest consequence of all may be in the psychology of the participants of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The success of Begin, Sadat, and Carter at Camp David demonstrated to other Arab states and entities that negotiations with Israel were possible — that progress results only from sustained efforts at communication and cooperation. Despite the disappointing conclusion of the 1993 Oslo Accords between the PLO and Israel, and even though the 1994 Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace has not fully normalized relations with Israel, both of these significant developments had little chance of occurring without the precedent set by Camp David.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_Accords

It's difficult to imagine any other American president doing what Carter did at Camp David. Most would not even have tried, and Carter's capacity for hard work, mastery of detail, moral integrity and just plain stubbornness all came into play. Though he would receive little domestic political benefit, it established Carter as a top global statesman and has served as the inspiration for much of his work since leaving office.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carter/peopleevents/e_peace.html

[ProgressiveCritic]

29. I don't want to get into a long debate

but the bottom line is tht those two countries -- Egypt and Jordan -- are not democracies and their "peace" has been bought with American aid.

Is democracy still democracy if muslims are elected?
At what point do we have the right to dispute or ignore outcomes?
Should we be encouraging democratic, mulit-party elections in all Arab countries?
Should we continue to be close pals with countries that are led by monarchies and dictators?
What kind of ally *is* Israel?

I am not sure what I think ultimately about these issues -- democracy in the Arab/Muslim world... how to best have real peace with justice, etc.

But I sure do long for some good, honest, public discussion.

As for Carter, as I posted earlier, I genuinely admire him. But I have a hard time wrapping my mind about the fact that the man who engineered the Peace Accords between Egypt and Israel also supported the Shah of Iran, and the evil SAVAK.

Sometimes we have to make room for ALL that is true.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. Of course you don't want to get into a long debate

"Is democracy still democracy if muslims are elected?"

WTF? What kind of a question is that?

[poverlay]

3. Once you murder innocents, and do not mitigate the behavior that

caused their deaths, you lose the right to exist and defend yourself. Certainly not the instinct or the will, but definitely the right.

[Bucky]

6. Using your criteria, the following places do not have "the right to exist"

.

earth

.

[shadowknows69]

9. Well humans anyway

and that's a debate I'm not sure humanity would win at this point.

[poverlay]

14. Funny, but a bit too generalized. There are many humans who draw

the line at unnecessary murder of innocents.

[Bucky]

18. ok, I'll elaborate: United States. Russia. China. Japan. Britain. Iran.

Crimes supported by governments are terrible things, particularly mass killings. They don't negate a nation's "right to exist." That's just silly. In the Middle East, applying that criteria, all nations would be eliminated. They're all killers over there. The solution lies in ratcheting down the violence, not extending arguments that flirt with genocide.

[poverlay]

24. I don't believe they're "all" killers over "there" any more than we are

over "here". I do believe we are just as culpable as Israeli or any other citizens that turn a blind eye to blatant murder committed in their names. The fact that there is no moral authority strong enough to wipe out all those who deserve it doesn't confer a "right" to exist. When that "right" includes every moral stricture that man has discovered through higher thought, and long experience, being violated, it can no longer be used as a logical, moral justification for survival.

[cali]

7. These are just meaningless

pronouncements.

[poverlay]

16. In what way are they meaningless? n/t

[Tom Joad]

8. Israel has been killing innocents for decades, but i am glad people

are now noticing. It has unjustly occupied another people's land, has taken their water, farms, destroyed their olive trees, put up Walls on their land. Nothing new here at all.

[ShortnFiery]

11. Again it proves the old adage, "Might Makes Right" :( eom

[cali]

12. I realize your focus

is Israel, but let's try just a wee bit of perspective:

The U.S. has been killing innocents for decades.
The USSR and then Russia has been killing innocents for decades.
China has been killing innocents for decades.

Etc., etc, etc,.

Israel's sins are hardly an anomoly within the world community.

[mom cat]

19. True, They are all rogue states.

[poverlay]

20. I think we're all aware of that. We must make a stand against them

given that we have a "wee" bit more power to do so than say a 4 year old and his mother living next door to the empty apartment suspected of housing a "terrorist".

I for one will not turn a blind eye to current atrocities simply because worse have been, and will be, committed.

This is my watch and I will do what I can regardless of the futility.

[Tom Joad]

22. Yes, you are right. Typical imperial behavior. We people must

demand something different.

[Mandate My Ass]

13. Have you seen this video clip?

Regarding Israel' "security fence." It's both heartbreaking and maddening what they're doing in the name of self-defense.

http://thewallofhate.org/film/thewall.wmv

[cali]

17. Yes, and it is

indeed maddening, and illegitimate, but that hardly negates my point.

[donheld]

31. Israel has a right to exist and defend itself ONLY when

It treats the Palestinians and its neighbors like they ALSO have a right to exist and defend themselves!