Israel is SO screwed.

[smoogatz]

I really think they've jumped the shark, big-time. I used to think our support of them was necessary and right, though I never thought it should be unconditional, and I believed that the Palestinians had a laundry list of legitimate grievances that had to be addressed before there would be true peace in the region. I no longer believe that the Israeli government is deserving of American financial/military support. Israel has refused to address the legitimate grievances of the Palestinian people. The current war against the people of Lebanon is an atrocity. If Israel can't behave like a civilized nation, let them sink or swim on their own. Of course, as a citizen of New America, I realize it's a case of pot/kettle/black.

[mzteris]

1. *****If Israel can't behave

like a civilized nation, let them sink or swim on their own*******

I think they're just copying US. :(

[malaise]

8. Watch CSpan 1 now n/t

[patrice]

14. BINGO!! We have a winner here!

You are exactly right.

[The Backlash Cometh]

33. Everybody but Bush learned the lesson of Vietnam. You CAN'T

bomb your enemy out of existence. Ten years in Vietnam and we couldn't do it. We dropped napalm on them, Agent Orange, daily bombings, daily Hamburger hill type missions, and we couldn't find a "Lasting Peace"...until we gave up and left. They hid in dirt tunnels, the Arabs have their caves.

Winston Churchill's answer to these problems is, "Jaw, jaw, jaw." At least with diplomacy, people aren't killing each other, and I think we need to accept that this is as close to a "Lasting Peace" as we will ever see in our lifetimes.

[midnight]

43. It certainly looks that way,

and someone on the blogs today said that Cheney pushed/approve of this attack in June. Probably to take the focus off of Palme investigation.

[laura888]

2. Well stated.

You've expressed my take on the situation EXACTLY. I can't disagree with any of it.

[Minstrel Boy]

3. I've always regarded Israel's existence as a moral obligation,

and I hate the Israeli leadership for making it increasingly difficult to justify that position.

[chimpymustgo]

9. No way this can be justified. Israel has squandered the support of the

world community that it enjoyed for 1/2 a century. Not only has its barbarism caused it to lose support, many are rethinking the whole concept. Israel needs to back down - immediately - and beg the world community of forgiveness.

[Beelzebud]

4. This is what you get when you base a nation on a 2000 year old turf war.

[misanthrope]

29. 2000?...

...Keep going backward.

[ThomWV]

5. Nicely put

[ClintonTyree]

6. I don't think so.........

they've merely copied the "bush doctrine". It worked for bush, it'll work for Israel. Whether Israel is deserving of American support isn't the question. The United States will never abandon Israel. Never. How could there ever be a rapture without an Israel? :shrug: The fundies and their puppet, bush, will continue to support Israel no matter what.

[Hubert Flottz]

22. I don't hold it against the normal Israeli citizen that their country is

being taken over by the eastern branch of the PNAC, any more than I hold you responsible for the PNAC takeover of our country. It looks like the populations of Israel and America are in the very same boat and we are all headed for the reef wide open.

We need to JUST SAY NO TO MURDER!

Israel's leaders goals are the exact same goals as the PNAC have in mind. Attack Lebanon and draw in Syria and Iran and then when we win all those hearts and minds with smart bombs, we'll all kick the shit out or North Korea and then China.

The reality is, that we are sitting in quicksand in Iraq now and can't even chew what we have bitten off so far! The PNAC type Chickenhawks in both countries are in way over their heads already and are too stupid to even know it.

Meanwhile the world is getting very tired of their bullshit and blood! The world sees right through the PNAC, just like you and I do, perhaps even better than we see!

[jonnyblitz]

7. Israel jumped the shark a long time ago

People have been pointing out Israel's behavior for a long time but the effective Israeli PR
campaign over the years to demonize critics as fringe loonies or anti-semitic has been effective.

Supporting Israel, to me, would be akin to supporting white south africa during apartheid.

[adriennui]

12. even if israel lost all american support

rest assured another country would fill the breach in military aid. some whom you would be quite surprised to know about.

[BillZBubb]

17. Good let another country bankroll their state terror.

We shouldn't be. And frankly, I don't give a damn who it might be.

[adriennui]

30. israel is not going away

even if the US withheld every cent in aid. do you believe china, japan and india want islamic fundamentalism to become the most important (and obviously violent) force in the world? most are content in having israel do their dirty work.

[SPKrazy]

34. I Don't Think That Some People Are Looking At Rational Thinking

on this

just looking for excuses to bash Israel is what I think

[fujiyama]

53. I see a lot of hystrionics

surrounding this whole debate.

Israel is being rightly condemned for military atrocities like that which happened at Quana, but I see a lot of subtle excuses for Islamic extremism and Hezbollah...

[On the Road]

19. It's Rarely Put in a Racial Context

but the comparison to apartheid South Africa is apt, with Gaza and the Palestinian parts of the West bank as being the bantustans like Lesotho.

[jonnyblitz]

52. exactly. nt

[never_get_over_it]

10. Israel jumped the shark for me

when we were "deciding" to invade Iraq, personally the only people I knew who supported the invasions were Jews. If I pointed this out I was called an anti Semite....I'm not and I'm sick of Israel and this country's unconditional support of their actions.

[cali]

48. A personal anecdote ain't a fact

"Even on the eve of the war, fewer American Jews than other Americans were supportive of the prospect of going to war with Iraq," said David Harris, the AJCommittee's executive director. "As American public support has declined since 2003, Jewish support has been declining in step, but because it began at a lower level, it continues to remain at a lower level of support than other Americans."

http://www.cjp.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=169151

[Southsideirish]

11. I never understood how they got "their" land in the first place.

[Poppyseedman]

23. Ever read the " Book of Joshua "

Jos 1:1 At the end Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
Jos 1:2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, to the children of Israel.
Jos 1:3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.
Jos 1:4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.
Jos 1:5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
Jos 1:6 Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them.

[patrice]

27. Many of the borders of the countries in question are man-made.

I agree that "God" (who/what-ever that is) will "give" the Israelis a land of their own. It just may not be the one that man has arbitrarily defined, nor may the Isreali people be the ones we presently call Isrealis. In other words, it may not be in terms we have determined, unless we are "God".

[acmejack]

28. Your point is?

[Poppyseedman]

31. Southsideirish asked a question

"I never understood how they got "their" land in the first place" I answered him.

The first recorded time Israel entered into "their" land. Probably around 4,500 to 5,000 years ago.

[LiberalUprising]

38. A fable or myth is not an answer

Got anything else?

[Poppyseedman]

49. The 1948 United Nations agreement good enough ?

that gave Israel statehood.

or is the U.N. agreements only meaningful when they agree under your worldview ???

I thought so

[LiberalUprising]

51. You need not be

condesending.

You gave a non answer by quoting a book from an ancient mythology.

[Poppyseedman]

55. Biblical text is far from ancient mythology

In your world view the Bible may be a fairy tale, but there is massive scholarly work that reveals the Old Testament as one of the most reliable historical documents written. Please note, I said "historical document", whether or not you believe in it or have faith is a separate and completely different subject.

All you have to do is throw away your biases and do a little bit of research. Do you believe Homer's account of Ulysses's is truth or a fairy tale or somewhere in between ?

Bear in mind, I said nothing about believing by "faith" what the Bible says, just there are thousands of archaeological evidences that confirm what was written in the text. That in itself does not take away from the validity of the historical events written about.

Whether or not you have "faith" in what that text says is between you and whatever higher being you believe in, if you do.

[patrice]

44. People who decide to take the lives of others, especially innocent others,

because they assume in doing so that they are contributing somehow to how things "should" be, because "God" said so, are assuming an awful lot about what, where, when, why, and how the thing in question is becoming real. In this case, that would be the what, where, when, why and how the Jews will receive their own country.

IF something is true, it is inevitable, BUT we don't *necessarily* know anything, let alone everything, that's actually valid about the truth in question. Our "knowledge" is not accurate, especially of future truths.

Simply put, just because it is true that the Jews will have their own country, that doesn't mean that we necessarily know anything valid about that truth.

[RagingInMiami]

42. Oh, so God told this guy Joshua more than 2,000 years ago

That Israel is designated only for the Jews.

And we're supposed to accept that as the Gospel Truth?

[The Stranger]

45. Joshua ethnically cleansed the "promised land."

You sure you want to support that here?

[Poppyseedman]

50. I'm not supporting anything, just answered his question

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

56. Ah yes, the same larger book that says homosexuals should be put to death.

Do you agree with THAT too?

[Taoschick]

41. The same way

Jordan got "their" land and Syria got "their" land and Lebanon got "their" land. The ME was carved up following the fall of the Ottoman empire.

[fujiyama]

54. I never understood how the US got its land

or any country that has been carved out in the last fifty years for that matter during postcolonization.

Israel is one of many states that were in ways artificially carved out after WWII. It's nothing unique. Read up on other partitions around the world, including India/Pakistan.

[patrice]

13. NewAmerica? Where's that?

[smoogatz]

16. The country most of us live in.

The one that used to be a constitutional Democracy, but is now a corporatist entity. I'd put the little trademark symbol next to the name if I knew how.

[patrice]

18. Oh, I get it now; NewAmerica as in "newspeak".

[smoogatz]

20. As in different from Old America, the country I grew up in.

That had free elections and some degree of respect for democratic institutions and the rule of law.

[patrice]

24. Oh, you mean that country where we were encouraged to

do our own moral reasoning and accept the consequences, spiritual and physical, of our own CHOICES? The one where we were told that blind obediance is, at minimum, morally stunting, and quite likely results in moral death, e.g. Nazi Germany? That country that expressed admiration for those individuals who stood up for what they decided was right? That country got scared and tried to crawl back into its Mother's womb, resulting in the death of both.

[ForrestGump]

26. Yes, the

Fatherland Homeland, as it suddenly became known in 2001.

[Loge23]

15. Genocide is not revenge

Today's atrocity perpretrated by the U.S./Israel resulted in at least 19 schoolchildren dead.
The actions of Hezbollah, or the Nazis, are not justified by genocide. Nor is the response by Israel.
I have read recently some remarks that in certain cases war is the best course of action.
Nonsense.
War is never a solution. Genocide is never justified.
The U.S. government has cast itself as being "right" against those governments who are wrong.
Both sides are wrong. The alternate voice - the population - are ignored, and in this case, massacred.
My fear is that this world cannot be fixed by the "right" or the "wrong" - anymore than our country cannot be fixed by republicans or democrats.
We so need a new paradigm.

[patrice]

21. If you think about it, genocide is the ONLY real solution to the

current course of events.

So we have the choice of continuing to do things that will not work, i.e. Death for no purpose, since it won't solve the problems - or - engaging in our own suicide, psychic and otherwise, by supporting and perpetuating genocide.

Time for REAL Change.

[Renew Deal]

36. Based on your thinking

Isn't genocide the only real solution for both sides?

[smirkymonkey]

25. I agree - this is so wrong.

And I also believe that it has come down to governments against people, rather than people against people (although there are the guilty among them.) We are still thinking with the same mind that created the problem, in childish black and white terms. It will never work and I think you phrased it succinctly and perfectly below.

"Both sides are wrong. The alternate voice - the population - are ignored, and in this case, massacred.
My fear is that this world cannot be fixed by the "right" or the "wrong" - anymore than our country cannot be fixed by republicans or democrats.
We so need a new paradigm."

[Virginia Dare]

32. But, then again so is the U.S....

I think they jumped the shark when Sharon came to power, much like we did when the Chimp's cronies installed him here.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

35. My sentiments exactly.

[upi402]

37. Many who argued the Palestinian side are being proved

undeserving of the flames they received... even from liberals.

[Nikki Stone 1]

39. I think that Israel is just doing America's (PNAC's) dirty work

at the moment.

It's PNAC that has to be gutted.

[smoogatz]

40. Or the other way around, maybe.

Although lately it's looked as though the PNAC has been doing Iran's work...

[SoCalDem]

46. Just another example of how right wing conservatives can ruin things

When people vote in right wingers, this is what they get.. belligerence, self-righteousness and violence.
None of those are endearing qualities. The days of people working in kibbutzes, just hanging out growing oranges & olives are long gone..

they made a pact with the devil (US military) and they lost whatever "high ground" they had.

[plasticsundance]

47. Israel jumped the shark long, long, time ago.

Some might say it began when Menachem Begin took his terrorist gang named the Irgun and committed the massacre Deir Yassin

Early in the morning of April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun (headed by Menachem Begin) and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. The village lay outside of the area to be assigned by the United Nations to the Jewish State; it had a peaceful reputation. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Deir Yassin was slated for occupation under Plan Dalet and the mainstream Jewish defense force, the Haganah, authorized the irregular terrorist forces of the Irgun and the Stern Gang to perform the takeover.

In all over 100 men, women, and children were systematically murdered. Fifty-three orphaned children were literally dumped along the wall of the Old City, where they were found by Miss Hind Husseini and brought behind the American Colony Hotel to her home, which was to become the Dar El-Tifl El-Arabi orphanage.

Part of the struggle for self-determination by Palestinians has been to tell the truth about Palestinians as victims of Zionism. For too long their history has been denied, and this denial has only served to further oppress and deliberately dehumanize Palestinians in Israel, inside the occupied territories, and outside in their diaspora.

Some progress has been made. Westerners now realize that Palestinians, as a people, do exist. And they have come to acknowledge that during the creation of the state of Israel, thousands of Palestinians were killed and over 700,000 were driven or frightened from their homes and lands on which they had lived for centuries.

Deir Yassin Remembered seeks similar progress on behalf of the victims of the Deir Yassin Massacre . . .

Deir Yassin Remembered

It could be said Israel jumped the shark over the Lavon Affair

The Lavon Affair refers to the scandal over a failed Israeli covert operation in Egypt known as Operation Suzannah, in which Egyptian, American and British-owned targets in Egypt were bombed. It became known as the Lavon Affair after the Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon, who was forced to resign because of the incident, or cryptically as The Unfortunate Affair (Hebrew: עסק הביש Esek HaBish).

In the early 1950s the United States began pressuring the British to withdraw from the Suez Canal, abandoning two operative treaties, the Convention of Constantinople and the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty of 1936 that made the canal a neutral zone under British control. Israel was strongly opposed to the British withdrawal, as it feared that it would remove a moderating effect on Nasser's military ambitions, especially toward Israel, but diplomatic methods failed to sway the British. In the summer of 1954 Colonel Benyamin Gibli, the chief of Israel's military intelligence (Aman), initiated Operation Suzannah in order to reverse that decision. The goal of the Operation was to carry out bombings and other acts of terror in Egypt with the aim of creating an atmosphere in which the British and American opponents of British withdrawal from Egypt would be able to gain the upper hand and block the withdrawal.1

The top-secret terror cell, Unit 131, which was to carry out the attack had existed since 1948 and under Aman since 1950. At the time of Operation Suzannah, Unit 131 was the subject of a bitter dispute between Aman and Mossad over who should control it.

Unit 131 operatives had been recruited several years before, when the Israeli intelligence officer Avram Dar arrived in Cairo under a British cover. He had recruited several Egyptian Jews who had previously been active in illegal emigration activities and trained them for covert operations.


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