Please Stop with the demonization of the Israeli People

[brindis_desala]

They are no less pawns in this savage game than the Lebanese or the Iraqis or the exterminated Secoya of Ecuador. We know from the neo-con blueprint that the destabilization of Syria and Lebanon was part of the Greater Middle East Initiative. Is the U.S. and its neo-con cabal so powerful that it can dictate such a Draconian Notion with nary a word of protest from the supposed "civilized" world? No convening of the Security Council, no meaningful response from the "global community" as if none dare speak of the elephant in the room which is the scorched earth tactics that now serve as US diplomacy. Think people! Why the push for expanded executive powers, the contravening of the Constitution, the secret prisons, torture, the War on Terror? This is about control on a global scale, securing the lasts drops of oil on the planet for the corporations and conveniently thinning the herd while you're at it. Unless we the people of the world start thinking dispassionately, assessing each new act of aggression as it is meant for us to perceive we are seeing the last days of the viable nation state and the notion of liberty itself.

[prole100]

1. So Dissing The Israeli Government Is The Same As Dissing The People?

Best we not diss the Chimperor then.

We all be dissed as well.

[chimpymustgo]

3. Do the Israeli people support this massacre? I despise the Israeli govt

for it's wanton cruelty and mad destruction. I despise anyone - Israeli or American - who supports it. Who can countenance this mass murder of CHILDREN??? WHO???

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chimpymustgo]

9. I know you are trying to be helpful - I'm very curious how you think my

words are "off-color".

And yes, I'm VERY aware of the "police".

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chimpymustgo]

22. I despise the Chimperor, PNAC - all the wanton warmongers.

This carnage is unsupportable. WWJD??

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blonndee]

41. That's because questions about moderation should go to the

moderators.

[prole100]

42. You Know What Happens When You Question Authority?

You get the authoritarian answer - we are above reproach.

Just look at Israel for the current model.

[blonndee]

43. Why don't you TRY asking the mods?

I have done so plenty of times in the past and have never been chastised for it.

[prole100]

44. All Mod Criticism Ends In More Criticism - "You Just Don't Get It"

I get it, one can't fight city hall!

Lesson, never criticize city hall.

[papau]

51. No -diss away at Israel - but pro Hez is pro terrorist - accept what that

means and do not expect any political party to support you should you feel a political urge to run - or to even be listened to for your opinion.

[soothsayer]

2. There's a good Rabbi who is publishing 'cease fire' pleas in

major newspapers (or planning to). Nice lady is going to translate his ad into Arabic to publish it in a Damscus newspaper, where she says he'll be respected as a 'wise man.' Need to see more Jews condemning violence like that.

[Mandate My Ass]

4. I don't hear people here demonizing the Israeli people

There are many people in Israel who protested this slaughter from the beginning. There are IDF soldiers who refuse to serve in these kinds of missions, and that takes courage. I agree, the neocon hawks in both the US and Israel are fighting resource wars in the name of fighting terror.

And yes, they both want and need population die-off on a significant scale to achieve this. I believe the Israeli gov't is intentionally inflaming the Arab world like we did with Iraq and Abu Ghraib. Destabilizing the entire Middle East serves them well, or so they think.

[ForrestGump]

5. Sure

The Israeli people are no more responsible for what's happeneing in Lebanon (and, over the years, against Palestinians) than the US people are for Iraq and previous dubious military adventures by US forces. That is to say that some are going to be nationalist hawks or zealots/racists/xenophobes/morons/whatever, some are going to be peacenik doves or otherwise appalled at what is being done in their name, and some are not going to particularly care or pay attention.

The problem is and always has been perpetuated and promulgated by the people who run nations, who often have things other than their own nations' welfare as prime concerns. At some level, especially where alliances as explicit as those that link the US and Israel are concerned, it's a true conspiracy among members of a power élite that have little to nothing to do with the rest of us.

[Warpy]

7. I haven't seen the PEOPLE demonized

but their government is an appropriate target.

It's time to realize that criticism of Irael's actions is NOT criticism of Jews, of the Israeli people, of anyone but the murderous thugs who are insisting on this war.

[Minstrel Boy]

8. Are the American people demonized

when the atrocities of the US government are condemned?

I grieve for Israel and its people, because I fear its leaders are committing it to terrible tragedies.

[ProgressiveCritic]

14. We deserve to be demonized.

..and I grieve for the Lebanese children.

[newyawker99]

35. Hi ProgressiveCritic!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[bling bling]

19. But could you blame people if they did demonize Americans?

This is one of the reasons I felt so ashamed of my fellow Americans when Bush was re-elected. I'm still ashamed. The sins of this man were clear to everyone here and abroad, and yet we fucking RE-ELECTED him????? It made the majority of Americans look like a collective bunch of lawless, cold-blooded, idiotic yahoo's. I was thankful for that website "Sorry, everybody" because it at least showed some people around the world that we weren't ALL culpable. But I knew then, and still know, that by re-electing Bush we became willing accomplices in his actions.

[brindis_desala]

25. Its leaders are carrying out US policy.

The Clean Break paper that I cited called for peecisely this destabilizing operation. It wasn't written by Israelis, it was written by a conservative think tank funded by our most powerful corporations. That's the point.

[bowens43]

10. Sorry but the Israeli people

OVERWHELMINGLY support this murder spree. They are every bit as guilty as the demons who control their military.

[ThomWV]

12. You Are Correct

All reports I find from US and International news sources indicates that the vast majority of people of Israel are in favor of its current actions.

Murders. There is no other word for them.

[rman]

13. That's what the media tell us

But what reason is there to think it is true?

[Missy M]

15. I read about a poll in Israel and about 95% or more were in...

favor with what their government was doing.

[EFerrari]

24. I wonder. Polls can be and are manipulated.

I've been having a hard time finding stories about protests and it crossed my mind more than once that Yahoo and Google can filter them if they want to.

:tinfoilhat:

[Missy M]

33. I realize they can but this poll was done in Israel...

so I'm not sure this one was manipulated. I wish I could find the source as it was on DU I read about it. I was rather shocked to read how many Israelis were in favor of this latest action.

[EFerrari]

36. I've been trying to find out about the peace movement there.

How surprising would it be if they had any fewer problems getting coverage than ours does?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1769312

[EFerrari]

21. I found this site - Israeli Coalition of Women for Peace:

Quick Report from the Israeli Peace Front, 23.7.06 / Gila Svirsky
2006-07-23 04:56

The peace movement in Israel has pulled out all stops to end this mad war. Lots of groups are active, and we had a big joint demonstration last night - at least 5,000 people (though the media reported 2,500). Marching through the streets of Tel Aviv with signs, "End the War", "End the Occupation" felt like a relief after the roar of pro-war-talk on all the media.

Women in Black held vigils last Friday throughout Israel. The reactions from the street were quite violent and the police were out in numbers keeping onlookers (and on-shouters) at bay. After our vigil, we read the list of 55 (!) locations that held solidarity events this weekend. Some were Women in Black and others organized by allied groups. We felt greatly encouraged by this international solidarity.

I end with a short note from Hannah Safran of the Haifa vigil of Women in Black. The women were shelled during the vigil, but they returned to complete it. Later that day, under the newly formed "Women Against War", they again left their homes to protest.

hi gila, how are you? we are having a terrible day today. while we were demonstrating at our regular Women in Black square (30-40 people in all), we were bombed on both sides. it felt like being targeted from close. we had to abandon the vigil and look for shelter. we came back 20 min. later and completed the vigil on time. As we were traveling home, there was a second attack and we had to stop the car and look for shelter. When we came home we opened the newspaper to read letters of women from Lebanon. The devastation is horrific. Has Israel gone crazy or have we not noticed what a mad country we live in? It is 5:45 p.m. now and we had two attacks since then. I am off to our daily demonstration of Women Against War in front of the Foreign Office and all the foreign press. We will not be silenced. War must be stopped now. Every min. counts as people's lives are in danger. do all you can to stop this madness. only someone from outside can put pressure on Israel to stop. i have to hurry. be well and let's pray for better days. love, hannah

http://coalitionofwomen.org/home/english/articles/gila_s_230706

[brindis_desala]

27. Do you think they are not being manipulated?

50% of Americans still believe Iraqis had something to do with 9-11. Fear is a powerful tool exercised with diabolical skill by amoral governments.

[jonnyblitz]

30. exactly. I have NO SYMPATHY for supporters of this racist

massacre. they can go fuck themselves.

[ProgressiveCritic]

11. The thing is...

The Israeli people are "disproportionately" supportive of this war, are they not?

Why doesn't the Israeli government just make the steps necessary to be decent neighbors?

Why don't they do a prisoner exchange and return the disputed land?

As some have pointed out, Israel returned all occupied lands and prisoners to Egypt, and there hasn't been a problem.

As an American taxpayer, I really resent Israel's decades-old position: you must support our position, no matter how unfair, no matter how unreasonable... or you are an anti-semite.

I watched corpses of children being carried out of Israel's latest "self-defense" strikes. The life of Israeli Jews is not inherently more valuable than the lives of those Lebanese children.

The bottom line is that we Americans, who sit here typing our protests, are responsible for what is happening in Iraq, just as Israeli citizens are responsbible for what is happening in Lebanon.

All of us, if we had the courage, could bring this country to its knees, but we don't have the cajones to DO IT.

We are responsible.

[brindis_desala]

17. I agree with you.

We are no less culpable by our inaction to Bush's policies than the Israelis. But there is something larger at work here and people need to understand that if we are to have a global economy we need to become global citizens which may mean sacrificing some of the pride of tribe and ask ourselves when we read these various manifestos who benefits?

[marmar]

20. "sacrificing some of the pride of tribe"

Exactly. Or we will collectively die.

[ProgressiveCritic]

37. I don't really understand what you mean.

Perhaps given human nature, the "global economy" isn't a good idea.

"Global Economy" is certainly not my starting point for thinking about what is right and wrong.

What does this have to do with what I wrote?

I hope you will clarify.

[peacetalksforall]

16. I wish you had made more of a case for the distinction between the

leaders of Israel and the people of Israel.

I am one who does not believe in condemning the people. I am one who makes a distinction between leaders and innocents or innocents who are victims.

I just don't hear enough from the citizens of Israel. I only hear about what the leaders are doing.

I hear isolated stories about Israeli-Palestinian events or programs that bring people together - there was a beautiful program on FSTV or LINK about a music program.

But, I for one, can barely distinguish between the leaders and the people of Israel during the last 30years. I am very ignorant of their differences. I can now only look at two things - everyone acknowledges that WW3 will start in the ME and the Palestinians are no better off from all the leaders of Israel and from what appears to be most of the people.

My endorsement of Israel has swung from 100% support for the existence of Israel to 100-100% per cent support for the existence of Palestine and Israel.

But Israel for me is a grand disappointment.

Who in Israel put those leaders (some of whom have gone out of their way to torment and deny Palestinians) - in charge?

I must add that I greatly resent the Israel-US partnership. I despise the non-neutrality of the U.S. I despise the extreme pro-Israel US right wing and barons who are guiding our policy and kicking we citizens in the butt while they do it. The U.S. may not have invaded Afghanistan and Iraq if it were not for Israel. And Israel may not have invaded Lebanon if not for the U.S. (And don't forget the U.K. who pretends not to be in it.)

Something is out of whack in Israel if the people are different from the leaders and it doesn't show - or perhaps I'm out of whack for being ignorant and blinded.

Who killed Rachel Cory - the leaders or the people?
Who built the wall - the leaders or the people?

How are the people of Israel different from the leaders?

I have come to believe that more and more people on this planet are victims of their leaders - most especially in the U.S. We are a living lie with all the crap about democracy. It is the same rhetoric for Israel. Is it the same in actuality in Israel - a living lie of democracy?

Everything that Israel has done in the last 15 years* makes me more pro-Palestinian - meaning the little people. Unfortunately, my sway is flawed because I know that many of their little people support their self declared 'armies' of resistant fighters and killers.


* 15 years to contain a period in which the policy and policy betralys can be concentrated.

[brindis_desala]

23. One could say the same thing about most Americans.

We have the NYTimes writing phrases like "hysterical anti-war bloggers". We did not decide to back Israel because of any particular love for the Jewish people. Eisenhower and Britain's Lord Atlee were concerned about Nasser and Arab nationalism. They understood that a pan-Arab secular union with half of the world's available oil would be a threat to their supremacy so they quietly fostered the Muslim reactionaries and openly armed Israel. The same old game is being run with the WOT. Iraq used to be a secular nation but thanks to the neo-cons it is no longer. Now Israel sits wholly dependent on us for its survival.

[peacetalksforall]

34. Well, the partnership - US UK Israel - should be condemned for its

proliferation of killing and war - endless, profitable war (for a few).

Your wide umbrella of approval means that you support the right wing administrations as well as the Democrat administrations? Are you saying that the U.S. policy should be continuous and the how doesn't matter? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it would seem you are saying that we should have unqualified support for the Isreali people.

If yes, oh how I wish it could be true.

But it all leads to killing the way it is going.

Who led the only two administrations that gave us hope that it didn't have to be killing? Carter and Clinton.

My impression of Israel policy is tit for tat. I despise tit for tat. It is juvenile.

Who am I to say how to deal with the geographical set-up? And why should I be qualified to reference the lop-sided partnership of Israel and U.S. - I have none, I have only perceptions.

My perceptions is that Israel is a war nation who has partnered with another war nation and who allows the UK to tag along for the goodies of the earth that the association will bring and because the barons of the three countries are all in the same private jet of intentions - rule the world and the ground under the feet of its citizens.

So, back to the question - if I can't trust the leaders of Israel to find a way to live with all the people around them, in what ways am I to distinguish the citizens from the leaders?

I think I am going to throw in the towel and admit that we are looking at it all wrong. Our (all of the little people's) problem is with one group who are trying to rule the us and these little wars and pretensions of hate help them.

Along the way, those barons and their operatives are trying to destroy everything that stands in their way - the Constitution of the US, the UN, courts, terrorists who might destroy the pipelines and ships, plus those who form unons and those who nationalize their own earth resources.

Perhaps, the people of Israel and their neighbors are all getting played.

[brindis_desala]

54. your last sentence is correct.

We the people are being played. Israel was sold a bum deal by the British who while they backed them in the '73 war continued to help foster Wahhabism. Eisenhower backed Israel because he was fearful that Nasser would support the Soviets. We do not see most of the savagery our government perpetuates and yet almost half this country still supports its criminal actions and we don't have rockets flying into our bedrooms.
It's a dirty nasty game that keeps us divided and as you said right at the outset, only the elite are ever the winners.

[LibraLiz1973]

26. Demonizing? No. Holding Responsible? YES

Any Israeli people who are supporting this murderous spree are guilty of being terrible human beings- much like
any Americans who support Bush's crazy antics are also guilty.


I'm sick to death of Israel and their sh#t. It never stops with them and they are ALWAYS right. Sorry, but its how I feel.

[brindis_desala]

29. I wish they could reign in their government

but they have been conditioned to see themselves as victims. If you consider the actions of the British colonists in Africa or the French in Algeria you realize that on balance the Israelis have been quite humane.

[lonestarnot]

39. well fucking bullshit! Have we been able to reign ours in with anything?

[LibraLiz1973]

46. I am only talking about Israelis who SUPPORT

this insanity. Particularly the Israeli government. F them. I am sick of our politicians slobbing all over the Israelis knobs trying to talk them down from the ledge. The Israeli government is almost never willing to compromise or back down. I feel that in a way they are bringing whatever comes from this on themselves- much as we are (we meaning our government) by backing them up.


Are WE guilty for what GWB does? Certainly not those of us who voted against him and who oppose him now. But anyone who DID vote for him and supports his reign of terror is, in my mind, directly responsible for what he's done. And thats how I view the Israeli situation.

[lonestarnot]

47. I like the fucking short answer better. No we haven't.!

[Critters2]

50. I keep hearing they're a Democracy!! nt

[Warren Stupidity]

28. The Israeli Government has demonized itself. nt.

[Burried News]

31. Somebody killed Rabin and elected Begin and Ariel the sword Sharon.

That somebody has alot to answer for.

[brindis_desala]

32. I suspect it is someone who profits from the slaughter.

Behind every great fortune lies a greater crime.

[flyarm]

40. i would never diss the Isreali people , just like i don't want to be

dissed by the world for what my government is doing..i am disgusted by both governments , my own and isreal government..they are both in the PNAC together..

but i will not support my government nor the government of isreal for the mass murder of innocent civilians..

not in my name..and unless the people of Isreal say the same thing then they are condoning the murder..

i do not condone my government..in fact i despise it..i despise bombs made with my tax dollars being sent to isreal to kill innocent human beings!
period the end..

i despise my government and its deliberate failure to seek peace..

and it is deliberate..it is all part and parcel of the PNAC map of a New World Order in the middle east and throughout the world..

i will never support that..ever ever...

and any ally of this government of ours that seeks that end, i will despise as well!

i say not in my name..never in my name..

fly

[Ms. Clio]

45. great post

nominated.

[madeline_con]

48. Who's demonizing the Israeli people?!

[progressivebydesign]

49. I demonize anyone who condones this attack. Period. n/t

[Kailassa]

52. I Haven't demonised jewish people,

but I have been called scum on this forum by an "Isreali supporter" for not approving of what they are doing in Lebanon.

I'm seeing everywhere Jewish people lying and demonizing others for showing their statements to be lies. Jews world-wide have answered the call of an online group to argue for Israel's right to keep bombing, and many are spouting bullshit to support their case. But drawing attention to the bullshit is classed as antisemitism.

The antisemitism card has been played too often already. I'm not antiamerican if I hate the things America has done in Iraq. I'm not antisemitic if I hate what the Jews have done to the Lebanese.

[omega minimo]

53. K&R thank you for posting this brindis desala

and for drawing our attention to the bigger picture.

You say if we want to be a global economy.............. do we? Or have you skipped to where that is not a question anymore and we have to face What Kind of global economy to become?

If we are honest, many Americans have to face the fact that we don't know enough to form an opinion, take a "side" one way or the other. Even so, it is clear that the Israeli *government* has applied total overkill to their supposed "right to defend themselves."

And in that bogus (we can assess level of bogusosity by how many times M$M repeats it) slogan/meme is a Big Clue to how clueless the M$M prefers its American audience.

On this, as on many other-- every other-- issue of the day, the stranglehold of corporate control of information delivered to the U,S. public foists a predetermined POV on the viewer...........probably part of the plan, the Clean Break from reality that the Global Barons are seeking.

[brindis_desala]

55. We are being conditioned to accept the terms of a deal the

elite have already brokered. Powerful as the U.S. is there is no way these unending tragedies
could have been sanctioned without a wider level of complicity than seems apparent. If we remember the raw emotions running rampant here after 9-11 we should understand how easy it is to be robbed of one's better nature when a bomb goes off or another rocket is launched.
The only antidote is dispassionate, unwavering rebuttals that debunk the propaganda until the fog has cleared and more people are able to think and see the Big Lie for the greatest enemy to liberty that it is.