That's what I always thought, Chavez cannot be trusted

[tocqueville]

"We will stand beside Iran in every time and occasion and under every circumstance," Chavez vowed at the start of his two day visit to Tehran, his fourth visit to the Islamic republic since 2000.

"If we are united, we can not only resist but we can also defeat imperialism," the charismatic president told reporters.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060729/wl_mideast_afp/iranvenezuelapolitics_060729185023;_ylt=A0SOwlHS5ctEFwsAxQ6aOrgF;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--

[rockymountaindem]

1. Allow me to state, for the record

that I think Chavez is a swaggering hoser, regardless of what others say about him.

[Dorian Gray]

43. I'm on the fence about him...

but calling him a "hoser" made me LOL.

[lumpy]

64. Just like Bush is a swaggering hoser,

although he is losing his swagger in the face of reality.

[spacelady]

72. Better than our swaggering hoser. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

84. I got cher swaggering hoser right here!

Hoser out for a stroll

[Toots]

115. At least his approval rating is in the 60's compared to Bush* in the 30's

He takes care of his people and they love him. Bush* takes care of himself and his rich friends but the people can't stand him.

[xchrom]

2. chavez ''stands'' with iran 'cause he knows it rattles our cage.

[idgiehkt]

35. not only that, but hell I wish everyone would get up and say this shit

Um, maybe if China and Russia would stand up and say this Bush would stop beating the war drums against Iran. No more blood for oil, I'm completely sick of this shit.

[xchrom]

39. the people have an amazing capacity for being led to the slaughter.

and if not slaughter -- certainly a good fleecing.

humans are monkeys who love their hierarchies.

[spacelady]

74. We Gotta Stop This Shit. n/t

[babylonsister]

3. Imperialism:

The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.

That's what the US has become, that's how they/we are trying to exert our authority.
Perhaps if we had someone who wasn't a complete moron in office, Chavez wouldn't feel
compelled to say things like this.

[John Q. Citizen]

7. I think the anti Iran propaganda is getting to folks. They are buying

in just as they bought into the anti Iraq propaganda.

Why shouldn't Chavez stand with Iran? Has Iran or Venezuela invaded any countries lately?

[babylonsister]

15. Bingo! I'm thinking that's happening also. Say it often enough,

everyone will believe it.:eyes:

[shadowknows69]

16. I don't see Iran or Venezuela invading other countries

who has recently? Oh yeah. I'd say imperialism qualifies.

[John Q. Citizen]

19. Good point. And our invasion of Iraq has been the best thing to happen

to iran in the last 20 years.

Before bush started threating Iran, the moderates and reformers were on the move. bush squashed that quick.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

108. Even though you have someone who is, he still isn't *compelled*.

Ahmadinejad looks Bush look like a cross between St Francis of Assissi, Einstein and Mahatma Ghandi.

Hugo Chavez is overrated. "Opposed to Bush" does not make someone a good person.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

4. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

What are they supposed to do? Stand alone and fall for sure, or join up and maybe hold us off?

[tocqueville]

6. an Iran-Belarus coalition won't help Venezuela

what's next ? North Korea ? Syria ? Uzbekistan ?

[StClone]

38. If he does

China is N. Korea's "sponsor" country. Which we trade with freely and borrow from massively. Guilt by association tinges him but does not destroy what he has done for other South American countries and his own Venezuela. Belarus connection is odd but the man has a plan and so far he has thrived (aided especially awash in oil profits that he shares with Big oil and his people). He is playing a high stakes game in a region where past history of U.S. intervention in Latin America leaves corpses, ruin and debt manufactured by IMF, World Bank and Reagan death squads.

[WCGreen]

90. Remember, they are both in OPEC....

[MoseyWalker]

5. They are two

oil producing nations that the US has its imperialistic eye on, so it makes sense for him to make this type of statement. I know the Iranian President appears to be nuts, but Chavez would be a fool not to show support for another country that the US wants to infiltrate and destroy.

[tocqueville]

8. there are plenty of anti-imperialistic forces in the world

you don't have to choose the worse dictatorships. Besides Iran isn't anti-imperialistic. It's a local imperialistic power that wants to increase its power in the region, thus all that nuke stuff...

[MoseyWalker]

11. Not sure I understand

Wasn't Chavez elected fairly by 70% of his countrymen?

And...an argument could be made for Iran obtaining whatever weaponry they can to avoid a fate similar to Afghanistan and Iraq. They are a sovereign nation, right?

[tocqueville]

24. I don't mean that Chavez Venezuela is a dictatorship

even if there severe abuses of human rights. I mean that Chavez tours countries like Belarus and Iran that are dictatorships. It will alienate him from other tue anti-imperialistic forces in Latin America like Chile, Brazil and even Argentina. Flirting with Castro should be sufficient for the masses.

Iran has a imperialistic agenda over the shiite world, they are trying to build a big crescent from Lebanon to Bahrein over Iraq. Iran need nukes not to use them but to magify it's power in the Islamic world.

Painting Iran as anti-imperialistic is preposterous

It's a common mistake among leftists to glorify "big mouths" because the own frustration is so big. Leftists have supported people like Milosevic, Mao, Pol Pot etc.. until they bitterly regretted it.

[lumpy]

54. This lefty doesn't glorify BigMouth Bush,either

Remember BigMouthBUsh and his list of terrorist countrys like Iran, No.Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan and his vilification of Chavez?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

80. alleged Human rights abuses...

I have yet to see a report from an international rights group that accuses him of that. I've only heard it from our government.

[0007]

85. Hmmm

[ronnie624]

102. What a pantload! n/t

[John Q. Citizen]

26. We have a dictator as our president. He sure wasn't elected.

Then he invaded another country to try to establish an empire.

Quit watching Faux news and get an education, please.

[KoKo]

9. WHAT? If I was trying to create a "better world" wouldn't "I" use

rhetoric like Chavez to "rally folks around my thoughts?"

What? :shrug:

[Mika]

10. And on top of that, Chavez is......

..... are you ready....... a friend of ((((GASP)))) CASTRO. :wow:


Bomb Ven. NOW!
:sarcasm:

[stepnw1f]

13. lol... good one (nt)

[mikita]

14. love your post .. made me smile n/t

[stepnw1f]

12. Trust?

I don't blame him since he was mentioned as one on the PNAC list of countries to overthrow. Rather, I would question anyone's trust of the country that placed Venezuala as well as other nations, all so quickly onto that list.

[patdem]

17. So you prefer the PNAC to a free Venezuela? seems so to me

Chavez is loved more by HIS people more than bush is loved by Americans..and you still think Chavez is a BAD GUY? PROPAGANDA HAS BEEN CATAPULTED!

[tocqueville]

27. Demagogery doesn't help

it's fucking amazing how people cannot open their eyes. It's not because you are AGAINST Bush that you are a "good guy". The fact that he has popular support doesn't mean anything. Milosevic had popular support.

I see a Chavez that praises a fucking "rapture Islam style" dictatorthat love to hang gays (as Castro BTW).
He doesn't need to and that shows at least very poor judgment.

[StClone]

36. I will give Chavez the benefit of the doubt

When he does something other than stand with a threatened country. I suppose if he has nukes aimed at Dallas, invades Miami, arms terrorists or withholds petroleum to destroy the U.S., I'll think differently of him. So far he is a refreshing change to the countries that backed the Iraq invasion or sold weapons worldwide, or was home to 9-11 terrorists.

[lumpy]

63. And Bush praises a 'rapture Christian style'

Fundie leadership that love to hate gays, and people of other religions.

[Peace Patriot]

71. Popular support DOES mean something, if you are head of a democratically

elected government, elected in heavily monitored, TRANSPARENT elections, in a country with a constitution of the which the citizens are very proud, which provides for the equality and civil rights for all of its citizens. Chavez is the first president of Venezuela ever to have black and indigenous blood! He is a champion of tolerance and equity for the poor. Where is the "ethnic cleansing" in Venezuela? Chavez is GIVING BACK land to the indigenous! Tocqueville, to bring up Milosevic in this way--as if to compare them-- is odious of you. The two are like night and day.

As for Iran, WE are the ones--the US and Israel--who destroyed Iran's democracy in 1954, and inflicted the Shah of Iran, who tortured and oppressed the people of Iran for 25 years. WE are the ones who drove them into the arms of the ayotollahs. They are afraid of us, for good reason! And then Bush adds insults (the "Axis of Evil") and saber-rattling threats.

Re: Chavez visiting Iran, and supporting its sovereignty, what about Bush holding hands with Prince Bandar, the Saudi sultans' bailout of his failed oil company, and his letting all the bin Ladens escape the country after 9/11 without questioning them?

WHO is cozy with dictators?

[Nevernose]

106. Bush's relationship w/ Bandar is totally irrelevant

what about Bush holding hands with Prince Bandar, the Saudi sultans' bailout of his failed oil company, and his letting all the bin Ladens escape the country after 9/11 without questioning them?

Bush's coziness w/ Arabia is irrelevant. Just because someone thinks that Chavez and the Iranian ruling class are assholes doesn't mean that Bush can't be an asshole, too. I'd say that there are a LOT of assholes int he world today.

For the record: I think Chavez is awesome, and is doing more good for South America than anyone else has in decades. I'm just pointing out that one can hate Bush, love America, and still not approve of Chavez.

[Judi Lynn]

73. Let's see that proof you've got that Fidel Castro is one to "hang gays."

Should be very educational for us.

Thank you.

[John Q. Citizen]

I believe and I know for a fact bush cannot be trusted. We are ruled

by a dictator, an unelected little tyrant is our President.

When bush invaded Iraq, he did more to help Iran than one hundred Venezuelas could ever do.

Why shouldn't Chavez declare that he stands by Iran? Perhaps you could enlighten me about why that is a bad thing?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

109. Because the government of Iran is one of the most evil in the world.

We're talking about a country that has been actively encouraging and financing the killing of civilians in Israel and Iraq for years (and killing target at civilians, not just not giving a damn about "colateral damage"), where a mentally ill 16-year-old was recently executed for having sex outside marriage with a 50-something man, where homosexuality and adultery are capital crimes, which executes about 100 people a year from a population of 70,000,000, which is an undemocratic theocracy, without freedom of religion, speech or assembly, etc, etc, etc.

Supporting it is absolutely unconscionable.

[ronnie624]

118. Saudi Arabia and Singapore,

two countries the U.S. has extensive ties to, have higher execution rates than Iran, and you can yammer all you want about the killing of civilians, but Iran in no manner compares to the U.S. in this regard. You are using pure hyperbole to exaggerate the crimes of the Iranian government out of all proportion when compared to the abuses of other governments. This is a clear indication of an ideological agenda. Further, when you use terms like "evil" to demonize other nations, you have lost much credibility in my eyes.

Most governments are guilty of human rights abuses to some degree or other. Should they all just stop associating with each other? How silly and hypocritical would that be?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

119. Yes, I do have an ideological agenda.

I am ideologically opposed to human rights abuses.

Neither Singapore isn't even in the same league as Iran on that scale. I don't know much about Saudi Arabia, but what I do know about it makes me think that the US definately shouldn't be supporting with it.

Many governments are indeed guilty of human rights abuses to some degree or other. In relatively few cases is that degree as high as in Iran - some African nations (although in many cases there the situation is ocmplicated by the fact that it's not exactly governments perpetrating the abuses), a few other Middle Eastern ones, perhaps Burma, North Korea or one or two other far Eastern ones (again, I don't know much about them). None of those are regimes one could possibly justify condoning "supporting".

I fully agree that governments shouldn't stop associating with such countries - I never suggested that they should - but they certainly shouldn't support their governments.

[ronnie624]

124. "Many governments are indeed guilty

of human rights abuses to some degree or other. In relatively few cases is that degree as high as in Iran..."

You make this statement as though you are fully confident in its accuracy, but I say it is pure, unadulterated nonsense.

Just recently has the U.S. invaded another country, destroyed its infrastructure, contaminated its soil and water with depleted uranium, plundered its treasury and resources, and slaughtered more than a hundred thousand people in the process. What atrocities, specifically, has Iran committed in its entire history that can even remotely compare to these horrors?

I await your response.

[John Q. Citizen]

120. Like sending them tow missles so we can finance the terrorists in

Central America who blew up schools and and killed teachers?

Sorry, if you believe in black and white then our system is just as black, my friend.

We have killed and continue to kill over 100,000 civilians in Iraq, so Iran is junior league compared to us.

Compared to the executions in China, who we trade with, give most favored nation status to, who we have finance our wars, Iran is junior league.


Please turn off the Faux news and do some reading. You might be surprised what you learn.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

122. I don't believe in black and white.

And America's system is nowhere near as dark a shade of grey as Iran's is. Not even close. No-one objective would even dream of comparing them; it's just that America is so high-profile that it makes perspective hard.

If you're talking about the killing of civilians in Iraq, it's worth noting that America has made at least token efforts to keep the number down, whereas Iran has done its best to increase it.

Iran is *smaller* that China, sure, but it's a far more unpleasant regime nowadays (although it's not as bad as China was half a century ago, quite).

Your attempt to be patronising final line is the one that really amuses me. You need to pay less heed to the DU echo-chamber, and more to respectable media organs like the Guardian, the BBC, the Independent, or even the Economist and the Telegraph, which, while right-wing, have higher standards of objectivity and accuracy than this or any other forum. I've never watched Fox News in my life (its' not broadcast here in the UK), and I'm clearly less in need of better information than you are if you think the American and Iranian governments are just as black as one another.

[John Q. Citizen]

125. So you say that when the US government send tow missles to Iran,

that is less evil than when Chavez says he stands with Iran?

How many civilian deaths do you believe Iran is cupable for in the last 40 years? (directly or by proxy)

And how many civilian deaths do you believe the US is responible for (directly or by proxy?)

How many sovergn nations has the US invaded in the last 40 years and how many sovergn nations has Iran invaded in the last 40 years?

I can tell you with complete certainty that Iran doesn't hold a candle to the US when it comes to either of those two measures.

By the way China is far and away the biggest executioneer of any country that practices this barberic form of civilian control.


Look, I don't much cotten to theologic States whether they be Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia, or any other ones.

But to pretend to be shocked because Chavez states he stands with Iran is hypocracy.

[John Q. Citizen]

18. dupe, self delete

[creeksneakers2]

20. Its like he is always looking for a fight with the US

That probably plays well domestically for him. I don't see anything constructive about it.

[MoseyWalker]

23. It also probably plays well

in Russia, who is selling his country a shitload of weaponry due to the US refusing to supply spare parts.

I would be more worried about Russia's increasing influence in various areas than about Venezuela or Iran's intentions. Russia has been quietly, for years, building relationships to counter the US imperialistic moves.

[John Q. Citizen]

25. He's looking for a fight with dictator bush and his crime family of

war criminals not with the US. I welcome Chavez' help to the people of the US to help us overthrow our unelected tyrant. We apparently could use the help, since we seem quite incapable of doing it ourselves.

[FormerOstrich]

29. Its like he is always looking for a fight with the US????

You don't see anything constructive about it?

How about it probably helps him stay alive?

I think executing a coup attempt and funneling money & support to my staunch opponents is akin to looking for a fight.

I don't consider offering poor oil for heating and offering aid to Katrina victims looking for a fight.

The bluster? IMHO is just for survival.

[Judi Lynn]

75. What kind of fights did he seek with Bill Clinton?

It would be very helpful if you would list some of those challenges.

[creeksneakers2]

93. I don't think he had any fights with Bill Clinton

Bill Clinton got along great with almost everybody. I don't know of any problems at all with Chavez until Bush tried to take him out with a coup. I don't see anything constructive about Bush's treatment of Chavez either. In fact, I think its criminal.

[nosmokes]

21. if bushco attacks iran, i stand with iran and hugo.

i'm sick and fucking tired of his cowboying around and treating human lives like cher pieces. and while i loathe the social policies of the ayatollah, that doesn't mean it's up to me to decide whether iran should or shouldn't have nuclear capability, nuclear power, or be ruled by islamic holy men. and absolutely none of this means hugo chavez can't be trusted. i trust him a damn sight more than i do any leader we've had in the last 20 ywears.

[Minstrel Boy]

45. what you said. n/t

[Union Label]

68. Now wait a minute

what about Bill Clinton? he was a great President.

[nosmokes]

89. no he wasn't. he was OK

granted, he was hampered by a GOPosse congress, but he did lots of stuff that was far too much for big business than for the regular guy. can you say NAFTA boys and girls? i knew you could. and if he coulda kept his dick in his pants, or simply told the fuckin truth about it afterwards, then the self-rigtheous hypocrites in charge now wouldn't have had a springboard to leap to power from.

[Bucky]

92. Put your mind to rest. Bush won't... and can't... attack Iran.

It's not going to happen.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[StClone]

22. Didn't the U.S. back Iran at one time?

What has Iran done to us lately? Nothing!
Nothing except become the butt of BushCo's oil driven propaganda.
Didn't Rummy shake hands with Saddam? So any Freeper making comparison has to deal with that fact.
Chavez is part of OPEC as is Iran. These countries work somewhat together.
Chavez has done more good in the world with oil (and without war) than anyone I can think of in South America.
Chavez is one smart guy and he is doing something to tick-off Bush. Iran is still doing business with the rest of the world why not Venezuela?

[killbotfactory]

96. He's been dealing with Iran for a while

But now that Iran are in our crosshairs, Chavez is evil now.

Nevermind the stupid Iraq war and Bush's idiotic sabre-rattling were godsends to Iran, and have hindered the reform movement there.

[rman]

112. When it had installed a religious dictator, after removing a

democratically elected leftist/pro-labor leader (Mossadegh).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mossadegh

[Cocoa]

28. get ready for another shocker

Chavez is friendly with Castro! :wow:


:sarcasm:

[tocqueville]

31. so what ?

Castro is nothing else than a big mouth too. Those guys are passé. Nobody cares about Castro in Europe except for some abuses over civil liberties. All European countries have diplomatic ties with Castro, buy his sugar and send turists over there. Why the US doesn't do the same, beats us. The cold war is over.

[lumpy]

66. Castro is not passe in Bushco's eyes

as long as many Cuban'ha ha'Americans can drum up votes for the neocon Republicans. Not passe as for the potential oil off Cuba's coast. Bushco can't have Castro's influence in Caribbean states or upsetting US econmic interests in So. America.

[tocqueville]

30. I give up....

in Europe nobody thinks seriously that Chavez is nothing else than a demagogue but probably not very dangerous. It's pretty obvious.

but of course we are wrong, Amnesty International is wrong and we all love Bush in secret but pretend not to...

wake up folks

[KoKo]

32. I didn't understand what you said...but I see Chavez as a "leader" for the

"People." And as a "Populist Dem" it's good to see? :shrug: I realize, however that other Dems will have "differences." So....I'm open to thoughts on why he's as Bushie says: "A Bad GUY!"

[tocqueville]

41. There are no good guys and bad guys

some are better than others and some are worse, sometimes really awful. Chavez isn't one of them (the later). But flirting with Belarus and Iran isn't helping Venezuela. He'd rather calm down and cooperate with Brasil and Chile, build wealth and welfare in a quiet way; settle an example in South America. That's far more efficient.

[lumpy]

69. Don't you realize that Bushco is breathing

down Chavez' neck. Maybe he should not be tripping around the globe looking for alliances and as you say, should remain calm in a quiet way. But,that doesn't alter the fact that the Bush people are working on trying to topple Chavez and he knows it. Chavez is known to be resolute and will stand up against the US government and he is admired for it by many of his Venezualan neighbors.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

111. I think Chavez has been a good thing, so far , but is probably a bad guy.

To date, he clearly has a democratic mandate, and my impression - although obviously it's very hard to form an unbiased one - is that his government has probably been good for his people.

But it appears increasingly likely, as he goes about trying to work around parliament and make it appear irrelevany, and to establish a militia loyal to him personally, and the like, that he does not intend to leave power when this ceases to be the case, and this worries me considerably. I don't have any proof, and won't until it happens, but I think that's the way to bet.

[StClone]

33. Do you know what most Americans think of France?

Not a accurate reflection of reality.

No matter, having the man poke BushCo. in the eye is good enough for me. Besides, if you believe Chavez is nothing but a harmless demagogue, that stands at odds with the attempted coup(s) that are generally accepted as CIA (NeoCon) backed.

[MoseyWalker]

34. Could you provide info

regarding Amnesty International's take on this?

I'm serious - looking for info - not an argument.

thanks

[tocqueville]

40. read here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez

With respect to domestic policies, critics report that both corruption and crime are rampant.<108><109> They also cite a failing infrastructure and public hospitals.<85> Criticism from Chávez supporters arises from reports that Chávez is not fulfilling his major campaign pledges with respect to labor and land reform.<110><111><112>

Critics have also charged that the Chávez government has engaged in "gigantic fraud" during the 2004 recall referendum.<113> Human rights organizations Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have documented numerous human rights violations in Venezuela.<114><115> Abroad, some sources in the Western mainstream news media have reported that Chávez is a confrontational ideologue.<116> The United States government claims that his cooperation in the War on Terrorism is negligible or purposely indifferent with regards to the FARC and ELN;<117> nonetheless, the U.S. government says there is no evidence of a direct link between terrorism and Chávez.<118>

[MoseyWalker]

46. thanks

but, damn. This jumped out at me:

"The United States administration of George W. Bush,<2> described the State of Democracy in Venezuela as "in grave peril", with "unchecked concentration of power in the executive", saying Chávez has "turned his back on the Venezuelan electorate", "suffocated the democratic debate", "resisted external efforts to support democratic political activity", and committed an "assault on Venezuela's democratic institutions"."

My first thought was to substitute Bush for Chavez,and one has the US situation down in a nutshell.

[Peace Patriot]

59. Critics report... Critics have also charged...

See my post below, about AP's oft-used phrase "his critics."

I have never seen such disinformation at wikipedia--but I don't frequent it that often. "Gigantic fraud" during the 2004 recall referndum? That election was monitoried by hundreds of international election monitoring groups--including the Carter Center, the OAS, and EU groups--all of whom unanimously declared the election honest and aboveboard. It was the most heavily scrutinized election in history. (Chavez won the recall by 56-58% or so.) The opposition--representative of Venezuela's tiny rich oil elite--kept screaming hysterically about fraud, but there was zero evidence of it. Nothing! They are like our rightwing nuts. They'll say anything.

[lumpy]

70. My my, sounds just like what's happening

in the good old USA.

[Peace Patriot]

52. Try www.venezuelanalysis.com. It's pro-Chavez but well-written, with a

variety of opinions, and a wide range of info on Chavez/Venezuela topics (including Boliviarianism), and it will likely have background on this.

I believe it was Human Rights Watch, not AI. And it had to do with some dubious provisions of Venezuela's new constitution. Here's one article on it, a pretty even-handed one:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/docs.php?dno=1007

This was just before the Recall election, and it seems pretty odd to me that Human Rights Watch would pick on some items in the brand new constitution, that have never been implemented--lecturing Venezuela on free speech--and ignore what the opposition was doing. For instance, the news media in Venezuela is almost all rightwing/corporate owned, and berates Chavez 24/7, and Chavez does nothing to stop them. TV/media constantly pumped for the recall. Also, Sumate, a supposed non-profit for voter education was accepting money from the Bushites, and basically running the opposition's campaign. It is against Venezuela law to accept foreign money for political campaigns. (Two of the Sumate politicos are being prosecuted for accepting foreign money, but not much has happened with this trial; also, a government investigator of the money trail was killed by a car bomb.)

I am reminded also of the role of the rightwing/corporate media in the 2002 US-backed coup. They were terrible. They basically told the people of Venezuela to overthrow their elected president. Human Rights Watch picks on unused laws in the new constitution, that Chavez could have used to punish them with, and didn't--but says nothing of the provocations, or why those laws were voted in by the legislature.

I'm not sure if AI has ever issued a report on Venezuela. I think they have better things to do (Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay...). But here is a curious article on AI censorship of a leftist film by an Irish film company who happened to be in Venezuela in 2002, and thus got to film the attempted coup. It's called "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised." (It's quite a famous film in leftist circles.)
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1053

When the US-backed military coup took place, after Chavez emerged from it, still president, he only dismissed a few of the military leaders who had kidnapped him and had tried to overthrow his legitimate government, and called all the others in and had long talks with them about why they did it. (He is former military himself and knew a lot them.) He determined that much of it was disinformation and fear. He did not seek heavy retribution. Of course this is his side of the story. But I have not read anything to contradict it. And here was a case in which he would have been justified in strong punishments and purges. Authoritarianism doesn't seem to be his style at all. It's hard to figure where this charge came from. Actually, I tracked this phrase that we see frequently in our corporate news monopolies, that "his critics" accuse him of being "increasingly authoritarian." It is never attributed. But I did find a quote to that effect by a very rightwing Catholic cardinal in Venezuela, an old man who spent his career in Vatican finance, and got fired by the Vatican (which never fires anybody) in the Italian banking scandals of the 1980s. He frequently rails against Chavez. He is something of an embarrassment to the more moderate and liberal wings of the Church. Is this who AP and the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post are getting their unattributed anti-Chavez quotes from? Is this "his critics"?

[MoseyWalker]

56. thank you too

It was written before the recall vote, right? Having the media against one is something any US progressive can understand.

[BrotherBuzz]

67. Neither AI or HRW has published anything negative about Chavez after.....

the opposition case was tossed out on its ear. This might be a clue that escapes most Americans reading, believing, and trusting MSM. ;)

Venezuelan Opposition Case Thrown Out of International Criminal Court

Friday, Feb 17, 2006

By: Alex Holland – Venezuelanalysis.com

Caracas, Venezuela, February 17, 2006—The International Criminal Court (ICC) rejected an appeal by Venezuelan opposition groups to prosecute the Venezuelan government for human rights violations. Chief Prosecutor for the ICC, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, said the charges had a, “lack of precision as well as internal and external inconsistencies in the information.”

The ICC was set up by international treaty in 1998. Its purpose is to deal with the most serious human rights violations such as war crimes or crimes against humanity. Venezuela signed up to the ICC in June 2000.

Charges were first brought to the court in 2003 by Venezuelan lawyers representing Venezuelans associated with the opposition. The lawyers argued that they had suffered crimes against humanity at the hands of the Venezuelan government.

Most of the crimes they say they suffered were during the April 2002 coup, when Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and his government were briefly removed from power before being restored days later by the military and popular protests.

<more>

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1900

[Judi Lynn]

82. It's great seeing this article. Really appreciate it.

These guys simply throw stuff out here without any idea of its meaning. AS you've no doubt noticed, they don't look very deeply into things. If they did, they'd realize they've got NADA to work with!

It was hilarious when the opposition got handed its hat. Who would have doubted the outcome? Just getting it that far allowed some articles to surface which right-wing idiots brandish as having the same value as the truth.

[Minstrel Boy]

44. All of Europe speaks with your voice?

I don't think so.

[lumpy]

79. Thanks, Minstrel Boy

I must say Chavez is a powerful speaker, exuding strength in his convictions; what he has to say about Pat Robertson is right on and has no allusions about his enemy, the Bush gang. It will be interesting to see how successful Chavez will be, that is if his enemies don't off him.

[Judi Lynn]

76. Would you locate and post the EXACT charges from Amnesty International

concerning Hugo Chavez directly for our own education?

Might as well, to prove you know what you're talking about.

[lumpy]

81. Yes, like to see those charges

v

[Viva_La_Revolution]

87. Based on an allegation from his opponents

The main opposition grouping, the Coodinadora Democrática, claim that up to 350
supporters have been detained around the country, with police allegedly
fabricating evidence against a number of protest leaders.

see post #86

[Viva_La_Revolution]

86. Amnesty international Vancouver have been forced to withdraw the

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=62365&topic=artsandmedia&results_offset=60

Amnesty International Forced to Withdraw Chavez Documentary from Canadian Screening amid Threats of Violence.

Last year two Irish filmmakers were eye witnesses to one of the most extraordinary events in recent Central American history. Donnacha O’Brin and Kim Bartley had travelled to Venezuela to film an intimate portrait of Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez. They found themselves in the middle of a coup staged by elements in the military, powerful forces in the privately owned oil companies and the privately owned media.

Venezuela is the US’s fourth largest supplier of oil, and the largest outside the Middle East, but despite this is an impoverished nation, with a massive gulf between rich and poor. Chavez, a former military officer, is a populist President and was elected with a mandate to nationalize Venezuela’s oil. This has enraged the US government and the large conglomerates who own both the oil and the entirety of the private media in Venezuela.

Donnacha and Kim were inside the presidential place as the coup unfolded in April 2002, and they captured extraordinary scenes during and after the coup. They witnessed how the private TV stations actively aided and supported this military coup, and the way in which events were manipulated and twisted on air. Most importantly the two filmmakers captured the scenes as millions of ordinary citizens in Caracas rose up within days and restored the elected president, Hugo Chavez, to power.

The resulting Film “The Revolution will not be televised” has been shown around the world on television and at festivals. It has won numerous awards http://www.chavezthefilm.com/html/film/awards.htm


and the very next year...

The main opposition grouping, the Coodinadora Democrática, claim that up to 350
supporters have been detained around the country, with police allegedly
fabricating evidence against a number of protest leaders. The authorities claim
the figure is considerably lower, and those detained had participated in or
incited violent protests. They have accused opposition leaders and activists of
fomenting the violence in an attempt to force the President from office. The
authorities have a responsibility maintain public order should also ensure that
fundamental human rights are respected. Amnesty International is concerned at
reports that the security forces have used excessive force on some occasions
and failed to follow correct procedures for detention, and that these
allegations are not being adequately investigated.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR530032004?open&of=ENG-VEN


so, what is their message?

[rman]

113. I'm in Europe, and i and many people here do know Chavez is not

a demagogue.

[Redstone]

37. He's sure shooting himself in the foot.

Redstone

[AliceWonderland]

42. Oooh, a tied-in-knots-over-Chavez thread...

These are always a hoot!

A lot of people here idolize, say, Bill Clinton, and he did business with some extremely oppressive states, leaders and diplomats. I'm not a fan of Clinton, but just throwing an example out there. Someone who has some ideas you like need not be a god to you. When one has neither gods nor devils, one can discuss individual issues in all their complexity.

Not everything has to be a 30-second soundbite or a slogan. Chavez need not be hero or villain, no matter what CNN instructs us to think.

[Doctor_J]

47. Hugo's just tormenting Smirk

throwing stones at the stupid bully in the White House. He won't be getting involved in any war any time soon.

[pretzel4gore]

50. and he's surviving

that's the coin in the fountain....bush is dangerous, and chavez is playing the game well....

[radwriter0555]

48. What's wrong with backing Iran? Iran isn't doing anything wrong...

It's the USA and Israel who are being the aggressors.

Chavez is outstanding.

[Cleita]

49. Chavez owes us nothing especially since we tried to kill him.

Hes lining up his allies where he finds it will benefit him and his country. Really, he owes us nothing.

[KoKo]

121. True...... and James Carville worked to elect his opponent....

So...he knows he won't get help from either party in the US...so he says what he says that he feels he needs to for whatever reasons he has.

Our US policy of meddling in peoples elections only brings misery and the "puppets" we install always fall or we "take them out" if they don't.

Meddling in elections has given us these thugs we have in our own country...they may fall on their own before we can repair the damage done to our voting system but there's hell to pay for what they've done until we can take back our elections and our government.

[Oversea Visitor]

51. There is a real world out there beside US

We see Iran being bully by US
Painted as EVIL and DANGEROUS
But Iran has done nothing
US has done all the evil deed
The rest of the world other than US thinks like Chavez

I guess you should also not trust the rest of the world then :rofl:

[babylonsister]

53. O V, good to see you!

:hug: And very good point! The OP lives in Europe, I think, so explain that!

[Oversea Visitor]

116. What is there to explain

If showing solidarity with Iran over a possible attack by US is wrong
What then would be right
MORE WARS
MORE KILLING
MORE PEASANTS USE AS CANNON FODDERS AND COLLATERAL DAMAGE

Around the world the ordinary people feeling are boiling
The moderate muslim countries are being destabalise
I guess if this goes on maybe be replace by RABIB HATING US goverments
Nice world eh?

[Judi Lynn]

77. Hi, Overseas Visitor! I think our right-wing doesn't trust the rest of the

world, since the rest of the world is more mature, and wiser than our right-wing, greedy, violent, ignorant right-wing.

[Oversea Visitor]

117. Sucky BAD LEADERS

History full of them
Not a question of trust but of values
Bad leaders got no good values
They rule based on greed and power
Trust got nothing to do with it when they concern

As to the American who now say do not trust Chavez
Wheee mindset all mess up.

[Minstrel Boy]

55. "If Hitler invaded Hell I would at least make a favorable reference

to the Devil in the House of Commons" - Winston Churchill

[ronnie624]

107. That has always been one of my favorite

quotes by Churchill.

[lumpy]

57. Chavez can't be trusted?

Trusted to support Bushco? Or what? Bushco wants to keep our Southern nations under it's thumb. Can't have those countries free and independent with the right to their own oil and other riches.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

58. How dare Venezuela have it's own foreign policy!!!

Instead of relying on the superb foreign policy experts employed by USofA who have done such a remarkable job in the flower strewn Middle East and the many victories for democracy in Latin America engineered by them.

i.e. Honduras, Nicaraqua, Chile, Columbia, etc, when we supported the efforts of freedom loving death squads, assasinations, rigged elections, and other indicators of our expertise in dealing foreign affairs.

[Nutmegger]

60. Allow me to RESURRECT the Chavez debunking thread.

Official DU Hugo Chavez Right-Wing Falsehood Debunking Thread

That is all. ;-)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

61. Well, That Seals It For Me. Fuck Him.

Standing with the Iranian people is one thing: They are the innocents for the most part. But standing by that whacked out of their minds government so wholeheartedly, to me means that he too must to a degree be whacked out of his mind.

Support Chavez? No thank you. :thumbsdown:

[Greyhound]

104. What would you have him do? He needs Iranian $$$ to build his

country's infrastructure and Venezuela is opening an embassy there. So what else is he going to say?

[Minstrel Boy]

62. Well, that settles it:

Fuck Roosevelt



Standing with the Russian people is one thing: They are the innocents for the most part. But standing by that whacked out of their minds government so wholeheartedly, to me means that he too must to a degree be whacked out of his mind.


Hey, guess what folks, there's a world war on. And it's the fascist hegemon against everyone else. Everyone else is starting to hang together, so they don't hang separately.

Me, I'm over here with everyone else.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

88. Sorry, But I'm Not Going To Stand By Anybody That Supports That Psycho In

Iran that strongly. I'd have the same issue with Blair for example. If he were the best that Britain ever had, but had the same positions of support for shrubby as he has now, I'd say fuck him too. Some can say all they want that the Iranian leader is a good person or harmless, but excuse me for finding him to be an irrational psychotic no respect for his people fuckface. If Chavez thinks that highly of him, and uses provocative crap like he just did in his statements to embrace him so wholeheartedly, well then any objective open minded benefit of the doubt I had been giving Chavez previously just went out the window. I bet next he'll tell Kim Jong Il he's there for him forever and always too.

In the end fuck them all, including shrubby.

[leesa]

65. I'm sorry, but the problem with this is????

We are about to launch a BOGUS war against Iran and you are putting someone down for standing with them?? US imperialism DOES need to be defeated, it's bad for the world.

Go peddle your propaganda somewhere else.

[LibertyorDeath]

78. That pre supposes their are World leaders that can be trusted

So it's bullshit from the get go!

[Endangered Specie]

99. Ding ding ding, we have a winner

:)

[LibertyorDeath]

127. Well thank you most kindly.

:)

[alittlelark]

83. Chavez detests the current US administration.

Gee, wonder why.... failed CIA backed coups and all....

He will go against anything b*sh is FOR, and for anything b*sh is against.


THE ENEMY OF MY ENEMY IS MY FRIEND. Chavez understands it.

[Judi Lynn]

91. Some useful Venezuelan observations from Mark Weisbrot

Washington Post - January 12, 2003
Newsday (New York, NY) - January 15, 2003

A SPLIT SCREEN IN STRIKE-TORN VENEZUELA

By Mark Weisbrot

~snip~
If any leaders have a penchant for dictatorship in Venezuela, it is the opposition's. On April 12 they carried out a military coup against the elected government. They installed the head of the business federation as president and dissolved the legislature and the supreme court, until mass protests and military officers reversed the coup two days later.

Military officers stand in Altamira Plaza and openly call for another coup. It is hard to think of another country where this could happen. The government's efforts to prosecute leaders of the coup were canceled when the court dismissed the charges in August. Despite the anger of his supporters, some of whom lost friends and relatives last year during the two days of the coup government, Chavez respected the decision of the court..

The opposition controls the private media, and to watch TV in Caracas is truly an Orwellian experience. The five private TV stations (there is one state-owned channel) that reach most Venezuelans play continuous anti-Chavez propaganda. But it is worse than that: They are also shamelessly dishonest. For example, on Dec. 6 an apparently deranged gunman fired on a crowd of opposition demonstrators, killing three and injuring dozens. Although there was no evidence linking the government to the crime, the television news creators -- armed with footage of bloody bodies and grieving relatives -- went to work immediately to convince the public that Chavez was responsible. Soon after the shooting, they were broadcasting grainy video clips allegedly showing the assailant attending a pro-Chavez rally.

Now consider how people in Caracas's barrios see the opposition, a view rarely heard in the United States: Led by representatives of the corrupt old order, the opposition is trying to overthrow a government that has won three elections and two referendums since 1998. Its coup failed partly because hundreds of thousands of people risked their lives by taking to the streets to defend democracy. So now it is crippling the economy with an oil strike. The upper classes are simply attempting to gain through economic sabotage what they could not and -- given the intense rivalry and hatred among opposition groups and leaders -- still cannot win at the ballot box.
(snip)

Sixteen members of Congress sent a letter to Bush last month, asking him to state clearly that the United States would not have normal diplomatic relations with a coup-installed government in Venezuela. But despite its apprehension about disruption of Venezuelan oil supplies on the eve of a probable war against Iraq, the Bush administration is not yet ready to give up any of its options for "regime change" in Caracas. And -- not surprisingly -- neither is the Venezuelan opposition.
(snip/...)

http://www.cepr.net/columns/weisbrot/venezuela_2005_01_12.htm

[bridgit]

94. Chavez is every bit an opportunist as any other head of state...

[killbotfactory]

95. I'm sure both being Opec nations and Iran investing billions in Ven

Has nothing whatsoever to do with it. And neither does each of the nations being subject to US sabre-rattling.

nothing whatsoever.

Chavez is a dictator who hates freedom!

[LaPera]

97. Why BushCo (and others) want Chavez dead!!!

Chavez helped pay Argentina’s debt to the IMF he must be stopped before Chavez pays off other surrounding nations debt's and gets them out from under the thumb of the IMF & the World Bank, the WB is furious, so Chavez must die!

Chavez also makes American oil companies pay their fair share of taxes in Venezuela...so he must die.

Chavez sells oil cheaply to the poor, and "third world" countries, so he must die.

Chavez defies the oil company's controlled collusion of oil flow, so he must die.

Venezuela is trying to get a seat on the UN Security Council to have (up till now) a strong Latin American voice, so Chavez must die.

Chavez was legally elected, so he must die.

Chavez mocks Bush, so he must die.

Chavez offered cheap oil to poor Americans for heating, and wanted to help victims of Hurricane Katrina, so he must die.

Venezuela's economy is booming & inflation is low, so he must die.

Venezuela sits on huge oil reserves that the oil companies want for themselves, so Chavez must die.

Chavez has threatened to go the euro-petro instead of the US dollar, so he must die.

Chavez has avoided assassination attempts by the US & made them look bad, so he must die.

Other countries may want to invest in Venezuela's economy, that the imperialist (BushCo) don't approve of, so he must die.

Chavez wants to defend Venezuela from "outside" influence & imperialism, so he must die.

Chavez is beloved by the poor & working class in Venezuela, so he must die.

Chavez has said: "I am a Catholic and a Christian and a very committed Christian", so he must die.

Venezuela wants to Prohibit Transgenic Crops, it'll help the people’s health & the small farmers, so Chavez must die.

Chavez is a progressive liberal, so he must die?

Viva Hugo Chavez! Bravo!!

[LaPera]

98. Is this also why you think Chavez must go?

In 1997, the year before Chávez's election, 55.6 percent of Venezuelan households and almost 61 percent of Venezuelan citizens lived beneath the poverty line. At the end of last year, those numbers were down to 37.9 and 43.7 percent, respectively. That's a major improvement... This, however, does not really capture the changes in the living standards of the poor in Venezuela, since there have been major changes in non-cash benefits and services in the last few years.

Professor Corrales goes on to say: More damning for the Chávez-as-Robin Hood theory, the poor do not support him en masse. Most polls reveal that at least 30 percent of the poor, sometimes even more, disapprove of Chávez." Which is also to say that 70 percent of the poor majority do approve of Chávez. That makes sense given that he won 59 percent of the vote in the recall election.

In any case, there is no way that a truly liberal news source would have published an article attacking Chavez. Any Leftie with half a brain knows that Chávez is an enormous advance over who normally leads in Latin America."

First off, the fact that Bush has done everything the author accuses Chávez of doing doesn't make it right.

Second, thanks to the person who posted the info on where the author is coming from: I suspected as much. Interesting that he is a prof at Amherst, a very liberal arts college. Likely they keep his likes around for the same reason AlterNet posted this thing, along with Palast's piece: they believe in variety, in giving the opposition a voice occasionally.

Truth be told, I'd rather the US didn't import any oil whatsoever - that we developed an independent energy system that shut out all the oil importers from the Saudi princes to the Nigerian military governors to , yes, even Hugo Chavez. They'd do okay - and we need to slow the rate of global warming, as well as build a good domestic energy infrastructure based on long-term renewables like solar, wind and biofuels.

Isn't this a great idea? I'm sure all you loyal Republican patriots will get behind this 100% - why should we give our hard-earned US dollars to foreign tyrants! Let's roll with renewables! On the other hand, there was a great post by Horace G. earlier about the Republican 101st keyboard division - maybe it is time to go to Iraq and put your life where your mouth is."

http://www.alternet.org/audits/39580/

[LaPera]

100. Again-We're suppose to embrace Bush & his corporate owned lying media-Why?

Bush is a complete right-wing fascist...If Chavez is a leftist...
When have the imperialist ever told us the truth before about progressives?

Of course the regressive neocon Bush hates Chavez & ALL liberal progressive ideology....Chavez it seems to me is hundred times better than Bush's sick, greedy, oppressive regime, BushCo discouraging and intimidating opponents of free speech, even if one wears a tee shirt they don't like, BushCo hates any dissent and has government agencies investigate anyone who exercises their right to dissent... Stifling newspaper & media from reporting the truth calling them unpatriotic & treasonous if they disagree with Bush, eavesdropping on US citizen's, lying to go to war, insensitive republican asshole, as our kids die. Bush refuses to obey any laws he doesn't want to...does NOT support the Constitution, constantly finding new ways to subvert it for his ideological neocon corporate agenda believes in torturing prisoners & has left that option open even though congress & the courts said it's illegal, has broken every US treaty in the world, hates the poor and the workers, middle class, is an environmental disaster all for corporate profit...Bush is the war-mongering pig of ALL fascist war for profit (oil) pigs.

BushCo lies about everything!! Tell me just one truth you think he's ever said and I'll rip it to shreds!!!! Bush/Cheney/Rove are the most evil, wicked, sick, greedy, lying imperialistic regime on the face on the earth!!!

[Judi Lynn]

101. The only reason they haven't killed far more, and created even

more fiendish controls over the country is because they haven't had the chance to accumulate the power they seek, yet.

On the way to getting their power, they are going to slash and hack at everyone they can't control, with no exceptions. They are using taxpayers' money to fund opposition efforts to destabilize Venezuela, they aren't going to stop short of using any of the fiendish tricks already used with no interference by Nixon and by Reagan, who left a FILTHY, deadly record behind them, of which we're only starting to learn in the present, 40 and 30 years after it all happened.

Americans were completely kept in the dark, and all this time, like idiots, looked at Latin America as if they were all crazy people who hate the U.S. Jeezus H. Christ. Did it never occur to them to wonder what it was all about? God forbid anyone should have ever tried to find out, for chrissakes.

Well, thanks to the Freedom of Information Act, some of us who DO care are starting to find out what happened then.

Bush would gleefully repeat any and all of Nixon and Reagans grave crimes.

[LaPera]

103. Your absolutely correct....

BushCo put all their "eggs" in one Mid-East "basket" and figured Venezuela would go down quite easily...However, it hasn't....Now, it's corporate media bullshit time, yes, propaganda time and the gullible believe as their favorite corporate media of choice is telling them & trying to turn the tide...How can people really believe and accept this shit...That any country's leader, that's labeled a "leftist" by the republicans is OUR problem, and not the rich, gouging, imperialist problem, so we must "liberate", which only affects their long-term profit margin.

Chavez was legally elected by the people, (which Bush , of all people, is trying with his & Rove's owned media is trying to distort & smear).

Oh, the liberal Chavez wants a seat on the UN Security Council (for a deserved strong Latin American voice)and buying weapons to protect themselves against the inevitable, what, (invasion), by these same BushCo fascist thugs?

Using our tax dollars and our kids to do the dirty work for them.

How many times have we seen this before, as you so eloquently wrote.

[mogster]

110. Please be aware that these two 'items'

Iran and Hugo Chavez, are the foremost target of news propaganda. Check if he said that, check the context in which he said it, and btw: What's wrong in standing beside Iran?

Look:
Sept, 12, 2000 - Iran poll shows strong support for U.S. ties
TEHRAN, Iran (Reuters) -- An opinion poll carried out by Iran's culture ministry shows that only 8.1 percent of Iranians perceive the United States as an enemy, newspapers reported on Tuesday.
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/09/12/iran.usa.reut/index.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1730704

Iran is more than the world bully it's made out to be, and Chavez' Venezuela is THE foremost target of propaganda bullshit.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144&q=the+revolution+will+not+be+televised

[ronnie624]

123. Thanks for the information.

The CNN article was particularly interesting. I intend to show this article to many and tell them to keep it firmly in mind as they watch the attempted demonization of Iran by the corporate media in preparation for the attacks against the country which are sure to come at some point in the future.

But even on the rare occasion that news sources like CNN offer level headed news stories about Iran, you still find subtle forms of bias by omission:

The U.S. government broke ties with Iran in early 1980 to protest against the occupation of the U.S. embassy compound in Tehran by militant students. Some 52 Americans were held captive in the compound for 444 days

They never forget to mention this, but they always fail to mention that the Iranian government correctly suspected the CIA of using the U.S. embassy as a base for intensive covert operations against them. What were they supposed to do? Allow their enemies to continue to prosecute with impunity a covert war against them within their own country's borders? :shrug:

[mogster]

126. That's a good point

The Iranian revolution was a reaction to the US buildup of the Shah and the keep CIA held on Iran for many years.

I wrote a post in the aftermath of the burning of our embassy in Tehran, because the Muhammed-cartoons were published. It indicates that the Iranians were reluctant to participate in the 'riots' leading to the embassy-burning, and that the mood in Iran doesn't favor Ahmadinejad:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x395249

There is all reason to distrust quotes coming out of Iran; CNN's live interpreter translated 'nuclear energy' into 'nuclear weapons' during a translation of Ahmadinejad in January:

"CNN's simultaneous translation of Ahmadinejad's lengthy news conference on Saturday included the phrase "the use of nuclear weapons is Iran's right."

In fact, what the Iranian president said was that "Iran has the right to nuclear energy," the official IRNA news agency reported. CNN later clarified in an apology on Sunday night."
, but this almost got CNN thrown out of Iran.

I checked the farsi online translator:




Doesn't tell me much, but anyho - keep an eye on info from Iran, it has a habit of being contorted.

[Justice Is Comin]

114. As long as he keeps relegating bush to the trash that he is,

he's A-1 in my book. Iran has no intentions of being bush's second Iraq playpen of blood and bodies.