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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:11 PM
Original message
Four Directions


Introduction: Four Directions

"I have noticed no definite progress in any religion. The world would not be the shambles it has become if the religions of the world were progressive. " -- Gandhi

Three days ago, I posted an essay on how the neoconservative movement influenced US policy in the Middle East. It is interesting for me to consider the range of responses I get from the three political forums that I participate on. The Middle East, and US policy there, can be emotional topics. People can have very different ways of viewing the same thing; for example, I have had different people tell me that they believe I am either pro-Israel or anti-Israel, based upon the same post.

There is an old saying that when two people think just alike, only one is thinking. Because progressives and democrats tend to think for themselves, I'm aware that people will see things differently than me. I often have serious differences of opinion with my best friends when we discuss political and social issues. Thus, when a lady on one forum questioned what she believed was my focus on the religious/ethnic background of some neoconservatives, I was more than happy to discuss it. While on some issues, she and I will probably always disagree, I respect what she had to say. And in response to her suggestion that I might do well write something that more clearly expresses my view, rather than simply provide a well-documented history of the neoconservatives, I've given it some serious thought.

This essay is a result of her suggestion. As always, some will agree and others will disagree with my opinions. And that's the way it should be.

Part One: The White Roots of Peace

"All people whose minds are healthy can desire peace, and there is an ability within all people, especially the young, to grasp and hold strongly to the principles of righteousness."
-- The Peacemaker; Haudenosaunee

One of the issues that can create difficulties in discussing topics such as the Middle East is ethnocentricity, or the human tendency to be of the opinion that "one's own group is superior." (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary) And history is filled with examples of the confusion that has resulted when people face facts that do not fit well with their previously held beliefs. An obvious example would be the "New World" that Columbus "discovered."

There is a wonderful book (The White Roots of Peace, by Paul Wallace; University of PA; 1946) that documents the political philosophy of the Haudenosaunee, or Iroquois Confederacy. In a prologue to the 1985 edition of the book, John Mohawk notes that not "many writers on anthropology or oral history have found rational thought a prevalent theme among their subjects. Many professionals in this field operate on an expectation that rational thought is found only in the West." Yet those White Roots of Peace are a tradition based upon rational thought that go back approximately 2000 years.

As Mohawk explains, the political -social system of the Haudenosaunee dates back to an actual time in human history where society was under great stress. It was a period where there were blood feuds between distant peoples, which brought about violence between neighboring communities, and eventually within those communities. There was a break-down in the extended families, and this lead to violence within families. I'm reminded of Ecclesiastes 1:9, "The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun." We are at that time Mohawk described, again.

A man known today as the Iroquois prophet, the Peacemaker, began to travel throughout the territory that we call the northeast of the USA. He saw that each incident of violence created an atmosphere where there would be more hatred and acts of revenge. The violence spread like a disease. He recognized that spread of violent thought and behavior as irrational. It was irrational because it only led to a "spiral of vengeance and reprisal which found assassins stalking the Northeastern woodlands in a never ending senseless bloodletting."

Mohawk's description, which is the same as is taught by other Faith- and Wisdom Keepers in the Longhouse, tells of the Peacemaker seeking out the most violent clan leaders, and teaching a system based upon rational thought. Mohawk writes that "his words required considerable thought and understandably much discussion before his first students could take ownership of the ideas. He is not saying that human beings do not possess the potential for irrational thought. He is saying that all human beings possess the potential for rational thought. Unless we believe that all human beings possess rational thought, we are powerless to act in a way that will bring peace short of the absolute destruction of the other. We cannot negotiate with irrational human beings. In order to negotiate with other human beings, we must believe in their rational nature. We must believe they are not suicidal or homicidal by nature, that we can reason with them. "

This thought system recognized that rational thought was based on the common interests that held forth the promise of a bright future, in which people would put their minds together to attempt to resolve differences and deal with problems that arise in life. It is based on peace, justice, and righteousness. There is a focus on the welfare of the younger generation.

It recognizes that irrational thought is the result of pain, of fear, and of hatred. Irrational thought keeps us from working together with others in order to secure that bright future. It leads to violence that denies the possibility of peace and justice. It leads to what is known as self-righteousness.

I know that many people consider these ideas quaint, but unrealistic. Yet we find that Native American thinking has influenced our country and society in many ways. Jefferson, Franklin, and Madison were very familiar with the Iroquois Confederacy, as many of the ideas expressed in the Articles of Confederation shows. Jesuit diaries provide evidence that the Iroquois were practicing a form of group analysis of dreams for centuries before Sigmund Freud was born. The causes and consequences or rational and irrational thought are the same today as they were 2000 years ago.

Part Two: Reminiscences of War

"The guerrilla fighter is the Jesuit of warfare." -- Che Guevara; Guerrilla Warfare; page 12

One of the potential directions that we can head towards as human beings is warfare. At this time, I would like to examine the activities that are going on in Lebanon in the past few weeks. My use of some material from Che Guevara, to compare these events with, is not an endorsement or indictment of him; rather, it will be used to shed some light on what I believe is happening in Lebanon.

My goal is not to deny that human beings have a right to self-defense when attacked. I strongly believe that Israel has the right to exist without having the integrity of its borders attacked. I am repulsed by the suicide bombers that have killed and maimed the Israeli people. These attacks are examples of the irrational thought that Mohawk described. This form of violence, which includes kidnappings and missiles, is absolutely part -- though not all -- of the cause of the recent Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Yet the Israeli response is also irrational. Even from a tactical viewpoint, it does not make sense. There is a chapter titled "War and the Peasant Population" in Guevara's book "Reminiscences of the Cuban Revolutionary War." It describes the "benefits" to a guerrilla force of causing a larger state to react to a provocation by heavy-handed tactics. These include everything from indiscriminate killings to forced relocations. Such actions always cause a population to come to hate the state, and to identify with the rebel force.

A number of people have recognized that the recent events are not the Six Day War, when Israel rapidly defeated three enemies. This is a slower-paced war, and one in which we see Israel is losing the support of a growing number of people around the world. Blowing up ambulances and UN observers, no matter if done by "accident" or not, is very harmful in terms of public relations. Killing innocent women and children plants the seeds for generations of future violence.

There are people who believe that the actions of Hezbollah will reap positive rewards. There are others who feel that the Israeli's actions will make them safer. These are both examples of irrational thinking. This is what hatred, fear, and violence can do to people. As long as the cycle continues to spiral downward, both sides will experience more pain and suffering.

At some point, someone has to risk being creative, with a rational response. This is not to say that brave and sincere people from all sides of the struggle in the Middle East have not tried in the past. It is saying that the effort must be on-going, and requires a special dedication at times like these. More, it means that all people of goodwill must withdraw encouragement and support for the Jesuits of warfare. We cannot afford to invest energy into the cult of death. We need to look in a different direct.

Part Four: My Dungeon Shook

"Hate can only produce hate. That's why all these wars are going on, all this insanity. There's too much anger in the US. People are too afraid, too numbed out. We need to wipe out all this hatred, fear, distrust, and violence. We need to understand, forgive, and love."
-- Rubin "Hurricane" Carter

A few years back, I was able to assist a friend, who is a faculty member of the NY State University system, while she was writing a book on the power of forgiveness. She interviewed my friend Rubin, about how he found the need to forgive the people responsible for his being incarcerated for 20 years for a crime he did not commit. The above quote comes from that conversation.

Rubin's new book ("The Way of the One-Eyed Man") will be published in September. It will address the concept of the Power of the Good Mind. The message is the same as John Mohawk's, just in a slightly different cultural context. Quite a bit of that context is the American prison system. Many people know the basic story, from one of the four books or the movie about the Hurricane. I can tell a story that might be of interest in the context of this discussion.

Rubin lost the sight in one eye because of the medical neglect in prison. Now prison is a violent and dangerous place for any person, and losing an eye made Rubin feel more vulnerable to potential attack. In 1973, tensions in Rahway State Prison were on the rise, and part of it had to do with the neglect. There was a young man who was scalded to death, when a steam pipe broke in his cell in an isolation unit.

When tensions rise in a prison, everyone lives in the darkness. And when the danger of the darkness is the greatest, inmates begin to seek the safety of being part of a "group." In prison, those groups are also known as gangs. I was one of the people on the outside who Rubin discussed his concerns with, and I urged him to consider something he was hesitant to do. Shortly after the Attic riot, which had erupted into the infamous shoot-out, there was a riot at Trenton State Prison in New Jersey. At the time, Rubin was incarcerated there. During the riot, the Hurricane took steps to protect the lives of staff and inmate alike. Rubin and I discussed what steps he needed to take before the prison exploded.

In "Hurricane: The Miraculous Journey of Rubin Carter" (Houghton Mifflin; 2000; page 102), author James Hirsch writes, "Faced with these concerns, he decided to plunge into prison politics. Like most prisons, Rahway had conflicting factions -- Muslims, Italians, Hispanics, urban blacks, and others. Carter sought the support from the toughest man in each group, who collectively made up the leaders in prison. Promising to expand prisoners' rights and improve conditions, Carter was elected chairman of the Rahway Inmate Committee."

Rubin began a series of meetings with the Police Benevolent Union, church groups, and sociologists. He spoke out about problems including the lack of proper medical care, and drugs and weapons being smuggled into the prison. His efforts began to ease tensions between the guards and inmates. It was a heady time, when prison reform was a subject being taken seriously by the American public. I still have a large collection of the documents that Rubin sent me, mainly letters between the warden and Rubin.

The ability to get the most dangerous gang leaders in a violent atmosphere like a prison is the same type of power that must be harnessed in the Middle East. We will not find it in people like John Bolton, Condi Rice, or George Bush. There is an old saying that you can't teach what you don't know. The current "leaders" in the violence in the Middle East can only have their irrational thinking reinforced by the Bush administration, while being armed by the Cheney shadow government.

At this point, it will take leaders with the moral authority of a Nelson Mandela to deal with the current crisis. But it can be done. If it can be done in the ancient Iroquois woodlands, and in the jungle of a New Jersey prison, it can be done in the Middle East. In fact, it can be done in another important direction we might consider -- inside.

Part Five: The Search for Meaning

"To paraphrase what La Rochefoucauld once remarked with regard to love, one might say that just as a small fire is extinguished by the storm while a larger fire is enhanced by it -- likewise a weak faith is weakened by predicaments and catastrophes, whereas a strong faith is strengthened by them."
-- Viktor E. Frankl; Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning; MJF Books; 2000


Many years ago, Rubin introduced me to the power of Viktor Frankl’s thinking. Frankl (1905 – 1997) was one of the most influential psychotherapists of the past century. He believed that the basic drive of human beings was a “will to meaning.” Frankl was a survivor of the Nazi death camps; he recognized that people could transcend the horrors of life, and become stronger not because of them, but rather despite them.

Frankl’s works stand out as a wonderful example of rational thought. He could have been a bitter and hateful person. If any human being had the right to hate, Viktor Frankl did. But he refused to allow other people’s hatred to incarcerate his essence.

In the beginning of “Man’s Search for Ultimate Meaning,” he tells of how people from prisons and mental institutions have shared stories of the drive he calls “will to meaning.” He discusses the human need to transcend one’s self. Clearly, that drive takes very different directions when fueled by rational or irrational thinking. In reading Frankl, I became aware that as difficult as it is to not hate, it is actually harder to hate. I am not saying that as sentimental fluff. Let me share an experience my family endured.

In the late 1990s, a white supremacist gang in rural upstate New York was involved in a series of attacks on primarily non-white victims. They also targeted white people who were friends with non-white people. Their violence included a number of savage beatings of isolated victims (3 suffered fractured skulls), a drive-by shooting, and more. Part of their terrorism included a series of cowardly attacks on Asian-American students at SUNY-Binghamton.

My nephew was one of the people this gang of thugs attacked. They were upset that a brown-skinned high school student was getting a lot of media attention for his athletic and leadership skills. The gang drove about 35 miles, and waited in a dark parking lot near my nephew’s vehicle. A group of 15 men attacked him from behind, and after knocking him unconscious, inflicted a severe beating. Then they left him for dead.

The doctors in the ER said most people would have died from the injuries he had. He lost the hearing in one ear, and more. It’s still difficult for me to remember sitting on the edge of the bed, looking at my unconscious nephew, and seeing what those people did to him. I will not lie now – I hated. I felt the same passion for revenge as do the families of victims in the Middle East, or in Ireland, or El Salvador, or any other place where the ugliness of man’s inhumanity to man raises its head.

It would have been easy to take that 35 mile drive in the direction of revenge. Yes, those thoughts went through my mind. There were many others thinking the same thing, including many of my nephew’s high school friends. The anger that drives irrational thinking made the thought seem attractive. Yet if we had, it only would have fueled a spiral of violence. It needed to stop.

In rural upstate New York, a gang of 15 white men that attacks a black teen is going to face very different legal consequences than a gang of black kids that attacks a white victim. We knew that. It might not sound nice, but it is true. So we were aware that there would not be “justice” from the court. (There wasn’t. The gang leader got a $50 fine for having an open beer, but nothing for punching and kicking an unconscious victim more than a dozen times.)

Instead, we used the court proceedings as a forum for public education on issues of race and violence. The regional chapters of the NAACP had people driving from as far away as Albany to attend the court hearings, which were a weekly event for five months. Television and radio stations, and all of the local newspapers, covered the story.

The community where the trials took place called in huge amounts of police reinforcements, because they were concerned about the potential for violence. But there was none. Our group was focused and disciplined. We were united in presenting a message of rational thought, and discussing what direction we as a society could head in, in order to create the best possible world for the younger generation.

Among the large crowds that gathered, there were always a number of Jewish and Muslim people. They were all unfortunately familiar with having relatives being the victim of the same irrational violence that harmed my nephew. (In fact, the FBI agent who investigated the case, and who advocated the Justice Department get involved, told my sister about his family’s experience as Jewish immigrants to the US.) There were no tensions among the members of our large and diverse group. We were united in common purpose.

I’ll end by saying this: some people may read this, and think, “What the heck does this have to do with the war in the Middle East?” My answer is that we are all connected. What happens there impacts our lives in the US, and what we do here impacts the Middle East. Each day, we face crossroads, and as individuals, we determine what direction the greater society heads in.

“I set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, so that you and your children may live.” – Deuteronomy 30:19
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Odyssey of the 8th Fire
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 04:25 PM by SpiralHawk
They are walking...under the Algonquin teachings of the Seven Fires

http://www.8thfire.net
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. K & R
Excellent, excellent, excellent

*shadow government*
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. You quoted Che Guevara?!? HIPPIE COMMIE PINKO!!!!!!!
:D Great essay H20 Man! :hi:



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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
26. A day later,
your comment still has me laughing out loud. And, in a time when there isn't much to laugh about, I really appreciate that. Thank you.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. You are pro-justice & pro-peace. Those are the only sides worth taking.
I appreciate your thoughtful words on these complex issues. Sometimes it seems even on DU the approach to understanding the Middle East is as simple as figuring out as who killed Mr. Boddy in which room with which weapon. Good to see you know we need to dig a lot deeper to acheive real understanding.

:applause:
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. Talk about collective consciousness...
Yes, all life is connected, case in point,
my coming across your thread just now,
after hanging up from a phone conversation
with my friend who asked what I was doing
with my day.
That would be-
Painting some of my pottery with what symbol?
The four directions.
It has been very strong in my mind of late.

As an aside, are you familiar with the circle of 7 diagram?
BHN
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent
I don't know who will step forward as the leaders, but certainly all young people need leaders and a way to grow. I read Black Elk when I was younger, and it provided nourishment. They don't teach about spiritual nature of trees in biology classes anywhere.


""Then I was standing on the highest mountain of them all, and round about beneath me was the whole hoop of the world. And while I stood there I saw more than I can tell and I understood more than I saw; for I was seeing in a sacred manner the shapes of all things in the spirit, and the shape of all shapes as they must live together like one being.

And I say the sacred hoop of my people was one of the many hoops that made one circle, wide as daylight and as starlight, and in the center grew one mighty flowering tree to shelter all the children of one mother and one father. And I saw that it was holy...

But anywhere is the center of the world.""
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. As a potter, I would concur about the center being where you are.
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 05:11 PM by BeHereNow
Clay is all about the center of gravity, and
I find myself taking great comfort in throwing pots lately.
Something about finding the center in a clump of clay
while the world is in such chaos gives me peace.
I firmly believe that all art making counters the
chaos on some level.
Go make some art people.

BHN
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Yes, you really have to concentrate
if you are to do anything good. And when you come out of it, you always feel unified in mind and body and spirit.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Exactly! And how can each of us feeling that, hurt?
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 05:40 PM by BeHereNow
I always feel as if I have made a difference when I
finish a song, a painting or a pot.
I think these things are good for us, and the world around us.
I don't trust people who don't use their hands as an extension
of their souls...you can always spot them-
there hands are too "perfect," if you know what I mean.
I love people who have hands that show their passion for living
and expressing their spirits through the things they make.
BHN
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. I used to
do a lot of stone work. I built stone walls, flower gardens, "fire pits," etc. I miss being able to do that, but I get pleasure in that my sons are both about as good as I was at it. They enjoy telling people how I would sometimes need a certain shape stone, and could remember the location of the needed stone, from years past and miles away. They do the stonework, and plant my roses for me, and I take great pleasure in growing the roses.
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
28. another kick

More from Merton

We are united to Him in Darkness, because we have to hope.
(No Man is an Island)
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. H20, any particular reason for omitting part 3?
I noticed that you go from part 2 to part 4.

Just wondering out loud...not like it matters-
As always, your words are powerful with or without conventional structure.
BHN
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Yes.
The reason is because I haven't slept much in far too long. (grin) And now it's too late to edit it. That is, of course, why the annoying yellow smiley face is there, too!

But part 4 can be part 3, and 5 can be 4! I will refence that with Jimi Hendrix's "If 6 Were 9."
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Fine by me-n/t
BHN
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I thought the smile face was a nice touch
oops
:P
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
11. Your Nephew?
What's he doing today?

It is difficult not to hate sometimes and I never judge people who want vengeance for I have no idea what it feels like to suffer a child being brutalized. But there are people who come forth and say "they forgive". I wish they'd stand up and explain to all those in the ME, how they came to walk down that path.

*shadow government*
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. My nephew
is doing well. He works in a youth facility. He is one of the most remarkable human beings I have the pleasure of knowing.
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. Well thank you!
I usually skip or at best scan over posts of this length but I'm very happy I read through this one. Thank you for articulating this so well.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. It is the job
of old men to write long rambling essays. (grin)
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
16. Kicking, because as usual, like clockwork...
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 06:03 PM by BeHereNow
Threads of merit on DU are, of late, always met with a flood of
threads of silliness.
Could it be by design?
Oh, heavens no...
LOL, as if we hadn't figured that out by now?
BHN
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
20. H2O man, there is a local person
Myron Eshowsky, who wrote a good article on his experience with working with young black gang members. He uses shamanic techniques. He is from the Jewish tradition. You might be interested in the article. He is involved in counseling psychology like you.

http://www.newvillage.net/Journal/Issue1/1shamanism.html
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thanks for the link!
I started reading it, and will get right back to it after thanking you. It is VERY interesting! I think that I recognize this -- not this article, but the program that he is with.

It reminds me of when I used to work with youngsters years ago.
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
22. kick
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
23. Night Owl Kick
*shadow government*
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PurgedVoter Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
24. H2O Man for President
Don't think for a moment I am kidding.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-29-06 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. I'll help with the campaign! n/t
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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
25. sibel
this is OT - but sibel has just announced that russ tice has just been subpoena'd
thread here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1753431
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. It's worth noting
that if there is a judgement beyond legal fees, the Wilson Fund will invest it in a whistle-blowers protection fund.
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Pokey Anderson Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
29. Always nice when you wax at length.
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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I agree
I read the whole thing and felt my heart lift a little.

and welcome to DU
:hi:
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govegan Donating Member (661 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
31. Wonderfully thoughtful and provocative essay
And the missing party of the third part, could it be Black Bart (as told by Arthur Winfield Knight)?

"I've labored long and hard for bread
For honor and for riches
But on my corns too long you've tred
You fine-haired sons of bitches"

Or how to reconcile the rebel spirit with rational response.

Or to reconcile the irrational response with the bankrupt spirit.

"Why, the clubs I belonged to
Wouldn't let riffraff like them
In the back door."

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countmyvote4real Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-29-06 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
32. Brilliant. I love rational thinking. Thank you so much for your post.
I'm so glad that I scrolled down the DU homepage tonight. You are right. What is happening in the Middle East is irrational with a long history.

It doesn't help that efforts to moderate that mindset towards a peaceful solution were essentially abandoned by the * administration. And then they decided to throw gas on the long smoldering embers by invading and occupying Iraq with a false pretext. It's little wonder that the region is in shambles, and in spite of the history, it's clear that the * administration's policies are most responsible for the latest downturn.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-29-06 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
33. I had the same experience when I posted something about Cheney's
manufactured war that Israel is obligingly waging on Lebanon. I was not prepared to wade into the middle of the "Go, Israel, Go" vs the "Israel, Go Home" battle that is being waged literally everywhere it seems. It is scary when seemingly peaceful, rational people get sucked into this kind of word battle. The way one side tosses out "Antisemitism" and "position of strength" and the other describes the Israeli army as the world's ultimate fighting machine capable of taking out any target with godlike accuracy in the most chaotic of circurmstances (so if they hit UN peacekeepers, you know it was no accident) just blows my mind.

You know what this is? This is just like the abortion issue. When people argue about Israel they toss all normal rules of logic, reason, discourse and civility out with the bath water.

What could make the military affairs of one country such a topic of screaming, dragged out battles within a political message board where everyone is sort of on the same wave length? It has got to be violence begats violence. The Nazis and their bloody Holocaust have to be to blame. That is the only thing that makes Israel any different from any other place in the world. It is a whopper of a difference. That much violence is going to have a profound effect on many, many people for many generations to come. The middle east is feeling it in the way that Israel is always looking over its shoulder for the next anti-semite menance, ready to cut down any group or even country that appears willing to harbor a group or party that nurtures anti-semitism.

The solution is for families in Israel and the surrounding countries to exchange members, perhaps teenagers, who would live with families in the "enemy" country for a couple of years, getting to know their schools, customs, habits. Because you can not fear that which is known. The solution for Palestine is economic prosperity, which means Saudi Arabia has to stop exploiting their misery for political gain and instead start investing in their future. Once the Palestinians are members of the middle and upper middle class like Israel, then they and the Israelis will have a lot in common, and they will be able to have meaningful dialogues since they will be able to function as equal members of their own country.

Re: religion. The reason why it hasnt progressed yet, is because Buddhism is in no hurry, unlike the world's more militant religions, the ones used by conquering armies to assimilate conquered peoples---Christianity, Islam and yes, even Judaism--or the ones used by conquered people to assimilate the conquering armies, like Hinduism. Buddhism is the antedote for fear, but people have to come looking for it, it will not try to shove itself down their throats, because that does not work. You can not desire an end to desire.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-29-06 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. "Hate can only produce hate."
<snip>

That's why all these wars are going on, all this insanity. There's too much anger in the US. People are too afraid, too numbed out. We need to wipe out all this hatred, fear, distrust, and violence. We need to understand, forgive, and love.

Carter's quote applies universally; the middle east is a perfect example of hate producing hate.

It's also a sadly too accurate description of the U.S. Even here at DU, where people ought to know better, the campaign to regain some political control is one driven by anger and hate. All of America, including Democrats, need to leave the fear, hate, and anger behind and understand, forgive, and love.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
36. This holds True for all of us.
I am so sorry at the ordeal your nephew and family have gone through, H20 Man. Faith keeps good people together in the most severe circumstances.

Like you and yours, I have been touched by the goodness of the Great Spirit. That blessing kept me on a higher path than the one I was heading...

Regarding Goodness:

Jean Bertrand Aristide, the democratically elected president of Haiti, was twice deposed by that nation’s ruling elite – with the assistance of Bush 41 and 43 state departments.

What's stuff in the Caribbean got to do with life in the USA? Well, it has to do with Aristide and Liberation Theology and what he wants for the people of Haiti.

In Haiti, one-percent of the country own 99-percent of the property. So, more for the 99-percent of the nation forced to live off of 1-percent of the income and property.

Aristide did the most evil thing in the world, as far as BushCo is concerned. He wanted to share the wealth.

And BushCo can't have revolutionary ideas like that spread northward. That's why BushCo kills presidents.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. It can seem strange
to consider the consequences of irrational thinking. Bush considers himself not just a Christian, but an agent of God on a specific and divine mission. Yet he is by definition Herod. His actions result in the slaughter of innocents. He is actually an agent of the diseased thinking that holds that it is okay for that 1% to live in obscene opulence while 99% suffer. But, as Amos wrote in chapter 5:21-24, "I hate, I spurn your feasts, I take no pleasure in your solemn assemblies. Your grain offerings, I will not accept, nor consider your well-fed peace offerings. Away with your noisy songs: I will not listen to the melodies of your harp. But let justice flow like a river, and mercy like an unfailing stream."

The period of time when my nephew was attacked was difficult. When the judge who listened to witnesses tell of one gang member calling my nephew a "stupid nigger" said that he didn't know that those words indicated any racist intent, it was a clue that there would be no justice from the court. This was the judge who would give the gang leader a $50 fine for having an open beer at the time of the assault, but not a thing for punching and kicking an unconscious victim. I was not going to allow my family to be further victimized by "blind justice." And that only allowed for two options that I was aware of: the first would have been to continue the violence, and the second was to use the media to make the court hearings a sort of civics classroom in order to raise public awareness. I wish I could say that it was an easy choice, but it was not. I struggled at times with anger and hatred. Yet that is why I know, to paraphrase Rubin, that although it is very hard, we can do it. If I could do it, anyone can.
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