Israel v. Arabs makes some strange bedfellows

[JackNewtown]

You have many progressives, including appparently every major Democratic leader in the country, lining up with the likes of Bush, Trent Lott, Bill O'Reilly, and Michael Savage on this to support a right-wing leader in Israel.

On the flip side, you have many progressives taking a position that is similar to positions taken by the likes of Pat Buchanan and Robert Novak.

Can anyone explain why this issue causes such weird coalitions to develop?

[DYouth]

1. Hey let's just label the progressives with Kucinich and Lee and McDermott

But the weird coalitions is because damning the Palestinians is a bipartisan consensus and only the "far left" (Greens and most liberal of Democrats) and the isolationists like Buchanan disagree.

[JackNewtown]

4. Unfortunately, the Palestinians are dehumanized in the US media nt

[JI7]

2. i don't view myself as being on any of those right wingers side

even on this issue.

[lovuian]

3. Everything is connected and there are No coincidences

:crazy:

[RB TexLa]

5. much like immigration

If you find yourself agreeing with Buchanan and Novak you really have to ask yourself is it because you think they are right and you share their values.

[TahitiNut]

6. Taking "sides" isn't the same as "a plague upon both your houses!"

Two wrongs don't make a right. The cycle of revenge and retaliation cannot be halted by taking sides.

Condemning Israel for a wildly disproportionate reaction isn't the same as taking the side of Hizb'Allah. Recognizing that Hizb'Allah employs terrorism isn't the same as permanently condemning them - an historically oppressed people have little choice in the weapons they use when they're not being bankrolled bu the US.

[everythingsxen]

8. I'm sorry but..

Hezbollah are not a "historically oppressed people". They are an Iranian proxy army; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Origins ; peace could have been lasting between Israel and Hezbollah if Hezbollah's stated goal was not the destruction of Israel and the extermination of the Jewish people. Ditto for Iran.

[TahitiNut]

13. (sigh)

Go find some kindergarten where the audience may not have heard that talking point repeated 1,000 times already, OK? Any time a DUer starts a post with "I'm sorry ..." I can virtually guarantee two things: (1) They aren't, and (2) the post will be a patronizing and condescending regurgitation of talking points.

When people focus on a better future instead of a finger-pointing past, we might see some hope.

[everythingsxen]

18. Way to ignore the facts..

and bury your head in the sand.

What better future is Hezbollah working toward? Aside from wiping out Israel. I am sorry if that is a "talking point" that has been "repeated 1000 times already"; however it is an important point and more importantly it's what Hezbollah themselves say they wat.

We might see some hope when people grow up and realize that not everyone in the world wants cake and fruit punch and to have tea parties with each other. Some people are in fact committed to wiping other people out.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[everythingsxen]

20. Prove it

You consistently enter every thread regarding Israel and call them murderers. You have yet to *EVER* back up a single claim. Using the same logic you use, I could declare that you are an agent of Hezbollah because you constantly attack them.

Provide one single shred of evidence that Israel is intentionally killing civilians on UN peacekeepers.

What's that? You can't? Because you have no possible way of knowing, because you are not there?

Stop your smear campaign already.

[TahitiNut]

22. I sometimes choose sand. You choose your ass. Pick 'em.

:shrug:

[everythingsxen]

23. Oooh

Great comeback! Way to once again circumvent the facts.

[PDJane]

7. It's because of ignorance.

The media in the US does not provide context for the reaction of Palestinians and Lebanon. It doesn't talk about the theft of territory, the checkpoints and brutality in the occupied territories.

This is an illegal occupation. The Israelis are not defending themselves. They are using collective punishment in a place they have no right to be.

But in the US, there is nothing ever said about the occupation.......they talk about neighbourhoods and terrorism. This is not a help.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

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[everythingsxen]

9. It's because...

wiping out the Jews has long history of uniting people, either for or against.

And make no mistake, that is exactly what Israel's viewpoint is in all this. At the end of WWII when all nations stood together and said "NEVER AGAIN!"; Israel actually meant it.

[PDJane]

11. No.

Zionism has nothing at all to do with religion.

It has to do with making sure that the Palestines have no chance of their own lives, their own territory.

It is brutality.

The Jewish people will survive; the diaspora made sure of that. If assimilation hasn't killed the Jews, then the religion and the people will survive.

However, if Israel continues to use terror and confiscation as a tactic against the Palestinians, there is no guarantee that Palestine will survive. The US and Israel are working on it.

THIS IS AN OCCUPATION THAT IS ILLEGAL UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW. THERE IS NO LEGITIMACY TO THE ISRAELI POSITION.

That is not mentioned in the US very often. The rest of the world is fairly aware of the situation. The US is painfully and woefully ignorant.

[Ignoramus]

12. There must be a name for this type of argument

There are no weird coalitions here. But there is an attempt to claim there is, by linking two unrelated things and claiming that they are linked.

1. Buchanan expresses ideas that are in opposition to Israel's policies.
2. Other people express ideas that are in opposition to Israel's policies.

Does it mean that Buchanan has the same ideas as anyone else who expresses ideas that are in opposition to Israel's policies? No. Because those are different ideas, that are not the idea about Israel's policies.

Your claim that there is a coalition between the two, and that it's weird, is based on self-referential logic. You think progressives should support Israel's actions, so if they don't then they are weird. You don't express an argument, maybe because you can't, so you rely on saying "see it's like Buchanan".

[Blackhatjack]

14. Even More Interesting, why Saudi, Jordanian and Egypt silence?

Aside from the obligatory comments regarding the need for a ceasefire, all three have been relatively mum regarding Israel and Hizbollah.

Hizbollah is a problem for each of these Arab countries, yet alignment with Israel would be unacceptable in the Arab world.

Strange bedfellows indeed.

[theboss]

15. Buchanan and Novak hate jews/Leftists reactively support "rebels"

There you go.

[theboss]

16. There are other weird alliances

Some feminists have teamed up with the likes of Jerry Falwell in the past to fight pornography.

Heck, Bono and Jesse Helms became pals on aid to Africa a few years back.

[SoCalDem]

17. It's because most Americans know NOTHING about the "backstory"

Most of us learn what we know about that whole area from:

movies--- (especially the 50's & 60"s movies) where the Ay-rabs were usually portrayed as swarthy guys riding camels or on horseback with a dagger between their teeth. They had a peculiar propensity to try to steal "helpless white women" for their harems.. They must have been successful, since those movies usually showed harems with gorgeous Hollywood starlets. ... and then there was a slew of Biblical movies in the 50's and then there was "Lawrence of Arabia" and "Exodus" (probably where lots of people "learned" about the areas)..

news coverage---- of all eras where the guilt of not helping the Holocaust victims played itself out subtly, by never daring to address much of anything except the horrible suffering and the pats on the back all 'round for the eventual rescue

schools -----that (for most Boomers) pretty much covered NOTHING much about WWII. My guess is that by the time Boomers were in high school, there was another very unpopular war going on, and any talk of any war was dangerous . Unless one went to college and deliberately studied Middle Eastern history, probably most people learned nothing more than they "knew" already.

churches/synagogues- that teach the history of the Holy Land as their own faith proscribes it. Since most religions trace their roots to the same land, it's not hard to see why differences crop up.

Controversial issues that are cloaked in religion and culture have always been shoved under the rug in America. People choose up sides according to what their churches and immediate families believe, and hearing little or no REAL discussion, about those issues, how could it be any different?

America is an immature country that fears real reality. Discussion of uncomfortable issues is taboo here. We have a hard time admitting mistakes, and sometimes never do admit we DID wrong. Occasionally we have apologized for "wrongs done in the past" but usually in a generic way and without actually naming names.

[The Magistrate]

21. The Reason, Sir

Is that the issue does not, really, cut cleanly along conventional left/right lines.

There is nothing inherently progressive about either opposition to or support for Israel, nor is there anything inherently reactionary either to supoport for or opposition to Israel.

It is also a fact of our country's political life that there is among our people a very broad consensus that the Middle Eastern opponents of Israel are in the wrong. This necessarily guides the positions of mainstream political figures, who must actually stand for election to office and receive hundreds of thoudsands or even millions of votes to win their races.