Choose the Anti-Semite: by Larry C Johnson

[kpete]

Sunday, 23 July 2006
Choose the Anti-Semite
by
Larry C Johnson

Let's be clear about Israel's rules of engagement per the Bush Administration--whatever Israel does, no matter how heinous or disgusting the act, it's okay. As Republican National Committe Chairman Ken Mehlman said the other day, "We're all Israelis". I don't know about you, but when I saw how Israel depicted Arabs on the propaganda leaflet they dropped over Lebanon, I got real uncomfortable. Look at the following and you tell me, which cartoon is anti-semitic?

#1



#2



#3





The first cartoon was used on leaflets Israel dropped over Lebanon. It's purpose is to tell the Lebanese people that their troubles are caused by Hezbollah. The second cartoon appeared in the Arab newspaper el Watan. The third image is but one of thousand created by Nazi writers and artists prior to and during the second World War. It tells the story of "money grubbing" Jews who also happen to be closely aligned with communists. Use of that image helped shape a generation of Germans who could put Jewish children and women in gas chambers and crematoria without remorse or pangs of conscience.

What is it about Israel that it now thinks it is entitled to soil itself with the same kind of hatred spewed by El Watan (the Arab newspaper that published the second cartoon) and the Nazis? When you use racist caricatures to dehumanize your enemy and freely bomb civilian areas in Lebanon, you have left the moral high ground and are headed into a sewer. I hope Ken Mehlman is wrong. Under these terms, I don't want to be an Israeli.

http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/07/choose_the_anti.html

[Spazito]

1. Wow!

If this is true, if Israel dropped leaflets containing that cartoon, I have NO words to describe how I feel. Larry Johnson says it for me.

[PCIntern]

2. Pretty good post...even though I believe it's flawed

in some respects...

My only question is: since the Israelis must always take the high ground, as it were, then why should they give up the Golan Heights to those wonderful, peace-loving folks, the Syrians?

...and I dont' think that the Israelis' interests coincide all that much with Kenny-boy Mehlmann either. They don't want us to be anything but Americans. That "We're all Israeli" crap is more fodder for Pat Buchanan's anti- @#&^$^$ (not allowed to call anyone 'that' here)

[SoCalDem]

6. Were the Golan Heights part of the UN mandate?..nope

The Sykes-Picot agreement was a secret understanding concluded in May 1916, during World War I, between Great Britain and France, with the assent of Russia, for the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire.

The agreement led to the division of Turkish-held Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and Palestine into various French and British-administered areas. The agreement took its name from its negotiators, Sir Mark Sykes of Britain and Georges Picot of France.

1939 map




many more maps at:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/map_sites/hist_sites.html#mideast

[PCIntern]

8. No it was not...

Was Syria, UAR, Jordan, etc. invasion of Israel in 1967 in the UN Mandate? No? Did the Israelis take the Golan Heights against all odds and at the cost of many soldiers? Yes. Why did they do that? So they wouldn't get missles and mortars lobbed at them every 5 minutes. did they go on to conquer Damascus even though there was no one in their way? No. would Syria have stopped if there was no one in the way to Tel Aviv? No...I think not.

D'ya think that maybe there's a difference here...that all sides are not equal? Do you think that Fox News tells the truth all the time? Simply presenting a flat-earther does not invalidate the claim that the planet is a sphere. Just because Syria says something does not make it true.

[wellst0nev0ter]

22. First Of All, Nobody Invaded Israel In 1967

And the border wars with Syria were entirely because of Israel provocations.

And I'm also bemused that the same entity that decries anti-semitic cartoons circulated in the Arab world would engage in the same practice themselves.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. And I am bemused you fell for such propaganda!

The first cartoon set is not anti-Arabic or Islamaphobic!

[liberalhistorian]

33. If you really believe that, then you

need some new glasses, I'm afraid. Such bigotry is inexcusable whether it's against Jews OR Arabs.

[Behind the Aegis]

40. It is not I that needs my eyes checked.

The OP(ost) is nothing but sly propaganda, but I am not surprised you took it at face value as opposed to really looking at it.

[liberalhistorian]

43. Anything that isn't staunchly pro-Israel

no matter what, to you is "sly propaganda."

[Behind the Aegis]

45. And if it isn't rabidly anti-Israeli...

...you have to jump all over it....let me help you.

The first set does NOT paint ALL Arabs or Muslims in a negative light, Cartoons #2 and #3 paint ALL Jews in a negative light.

Finally, it seems little Larry doesn't know what anti-Semitism is or he wouldn't have made such a stupid comparison. Anti-Semitism is hate against JEWS, not ARABS. But, I am sure you knew that. :eyes:

On edit: There are actually examples of anti-Arab/anti-Muslim cartoons that paint ALL Arabs/Muslims in a negative light. That would have been a better comparison.

[wellst0nev0ter]

64. And Those Propoganda Art Of WWII Featuring Tojo and The "Huns"

are not REMOTELY racist against the Japanese or Germans as a people.

give me a break.

[Behind the Aegis]

66. What in the hell are you talking about?

That isn't even the topic here. I beleive this is called a "strawman."

[wellst0nev0ter]

78. No, We Are Talking About Perjorative Imagery

WWII propoganda art used perjorative imagery of the Japanese and Nazis in order to dehumanize them and justify their deaths.

The Israeli fliers do the same thing.

[Behind the Aegis]

88. No they do not!

The Israeli fliers and the WWII propaganda art are not the same thing! The pejorative imagery of the Japanese and Nazis were about an entire 'peoples' (ie. the Japanese and the Germans). The Israeli fliers were about Hizb'allah, not ALL Arabs or Muslims! The portrayal of Nasrallah as a cobra is NO different than political cartoons portraying Bush as a simian! However, I can guess why you are trying to look for racism where none exists, at least not in the situation.

[Postman]

72. All three cartoons were "anti-Semitic"

being anti-Semitic doesn't necessarily HAVE to mean discrimination of Jews only.

The popular use of the term "anti-semitic" has come to mean - a hatred of Jews.

But Arabs are also "semitic" .....

from dictionary.com
1.A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.

2.A Jew.

3.Bible. A descendant of Shem.

Maybe you're the one that doesn't know what anti-Semite means, or maybe you refuse to acknowledge that it's possible that your dear Israel acts just as violently, if not more so than it's neighbors.

In any case, who cares what you think...

[Behind the Aegis]

74. Wrong...

First, Anti-Semitism means discrimination or hate against JEWS! Learn!

Secondly, the first clip is not anti-Semitic, nor is it anti-Arab or Islamaphobic because it does not attack an entire "race" of people!

[banjoterror]

94. Even if the term "anti-semite"

has been co-opted to mean only anti-jewish, I'm pretty positive that the word "semite" was originally used to define a group of people whose language developed from a common origin. Thus arabs and jews were all semites. I know this point may not have much to do with the subject at hand (I really think it is a VERY important point), but if we're going to lower the level of debate here to "You're dumb, I'm right," and "No clearly YOU are dumb, and if you weren't so DUMB you could understand just how right I am," there's no purpose in having a discourse at all. So here's my two cents. Even if the Israeli cartoon in question doesn't explicitly impute evilness to ALL arabs, it's still a callous and inappropriate cartoon to drop in an area your country is about to bomb. If this cartoon and all the actions that preceded and followed it were targeted only at Hezbollah (and this is CLEARLY not the case) and no (or even very very few) civilians were killed then maybe you would have a case in saying the cartoons are not anti-semitic. The fact that everything else in Israel's bombing campaign seems to have been (if not planned) executed to destroy civilian life and infrastructure makes it hard to believe that Israel has more respect for the civilian population of Lebanon than for Hezbollah. Israel is run by rabid anti-semites.

[rockymountaindem]

77. What provoactions are you talking about?

[wellst0nev0ter]

81. The U.N. At The Time And U.N. Observers On The Field

were unanimous in assigning the blame to Israel for violating the DMZ and provoking the cross-border conflict with Syria.

[rockymountaindem]

83. What about the shelling of Israel by Syria prior to the war?

What about the closure of the Strait of Tiran by Egypt and their request for the removal of UNEF? What about all the Soviet provocations of Syria, telling the Syrian government that Israel was massing troops on the border (which was a complete lie to boost Soviet arms sales to Syria)? Do those not count? Again, this is a chicken-and-egg argument, just like the one going on now regarding Lebanon.

[wellst0nev0ter]

90. Syria's Shelling Is Already Addressed By The U.N.'s

uniform condemnation of Israel for their provocative cross-border attacks into Syria.

The closing of the Strait was already proven NOT to be a justification for the 1956 war, and it's not a justification for the 1967 war

Eisenhower:

It has been suggested that United Nations actions against Israel should not be pressed because Egypt has in the past violated the Armistice Agreement and international law. It is true that both Egypt and Israel, prior to last October, engaged in reprisals in violation of the Armistice agreements. Egypt ignored the United Nations in exercising belligerent rights in relation to Israeli shipping in the Suez Canal and in the Gulf of Aqaba. However, such violations constitute no justification for the armed invasion of Egypt by Israel which the United Nations is now seeking to undo.

And with Egypt having a third of its troops in Yemen when Israel pre-emtively struck, and Jordan and Syria's armies being of little consequence, there is simply no justification for the 1967 war.

[Joanne98]

3. You can see the date underneath the second one...

[PCIntern]

4. Israel held to higher standard....

Did you know that there's no odor coming from Israeli sewage treatment plants? You see, the international community has demanded that their s--t is not allowed to smell bad. It would be against the rules that no one else in the world ever has to play by.
:sarcasm:

Omelettes and eggs folks...it's gonna get a whole lot worse before it gets better...if ever.

[Spazito]

7. I gather you are defending the cartoons then?

or do you agree with the substance of Mr. Johnson's article?

[PCIntern]

9. Neither...

I am aware that this is war, and during war individuals and governments do things which would be unacceptable under normal circumstances. You're sitting in you living room or wherever tapping on a keyboard as am I. If I thought that this cartoon would be helpful, I would grudgingly go along with it for the purposes of saving life and limb. Every combat veteran I have ever spoken to said they did things which were inappropriate, but may have saved their own life or the lives of their comrades. After the War, then we'll all sit down and decide what's 'best'.

Do you condone blowing up buses in Tel Aviv? Of course you don't. Does my asking you that question offend you? Possibly...t is upsetting isn't it? that's how war is. It's upsetting to lose and win as well.

Recall (or not) the Passover Seder in which we diminish the wine in our cups for the losses of our enemies...who are human as well Name another group who reminds itself of how each loss diminishes us as individuals. It is a teaching which is inculcated into many Jews. Constantly.

[Spazito]

11. okay, let me try it this way and see it this is clearer

Do you condemn the use of the cartoons on the leaflets dropped by Israel? Do you feel the use of them is justified?

[PCIntern]

12. Maybe...

Did people leave their homes so they wouldn't get killed?

do Arabs drop leaflets warning Israelis to get out of the way?

anybody stop to think that some of the terrorists known as Hezbollah can read too? I's sure the Israelis did...but they're just not into wholesale slaughter.

If you're trying to paint me as a racist, you're just not going to get that satisfaction. If you call me a racist I will accept your designation because when I woke up this AM, I wasnt' particularly concerned about what someone thought of me on a Board, but the mods probably won't be so kind.

[Spazito]

15. Got it, you don't condemn them, thanks for responding n/t

[PCIntern]

21. You're very welcome...

now wasn't that easy? See, Jews are often upsetting these days because we say what's on our minds. It's realy difficult to fight a war against people who want your utter and compete destruction...while being a nice guy. I'm a nicce guy, people like me, they really do...I'm a progressive liberal, have contributed in every way to DU for years now, enjoy an certain prominence in the community, and I speak my mind.

you want to believe that the Arab countries will do bette rwith this tiny strip of land than the Jews, go right ahead. There's a reason why there's nothing but desert for millions of square miles but they have to have this land.

King Hussein of Jordan once said that if the Israelis ceded all their land except for 9 square inches, then that would be the 9 square inches for which thousands would have to fight and die.

[banjoterror]

96. You actually paint yourself

as a racist very effectively.

[liberalhistorian]

47. Oh, I see, so now it's the fault

of the hundreds of thousands of civilians who didn't have the simple decency to find a place to "get out of the way" before their country and everything they knew was destroyed. Got it.

See, though, even when they WERE trying to get out of the way, Israeli warplanes had no problem shooting at them. Such as the bus carrying Lebanese civilians to shelter, perhaps. But I suppose that was their fault, too, huh? Israeli enablers are beyond incredible at this point.

[boston bean]

84. Hezbollah doesn't have planes. And for that matter neither does

the Lebanese Army. So no, they probably don't drop leaflets, because the US of A does not supply them flying machines.

[banjoterror]

95. It's good to know

That all of the Israeli people are so painfully morally cognizant of the evils wrought by unjustified war. Plenty of Americans pour out some of their 40's for their fallen comrades, enemies, homies and the like. Plenty of Americans pray for the innocent folk dying in wars we propagate. I think the international community should step back and think about this before condemning us for invading Iraq.

[iverglas]

100. interesting

Recall (or not) the Passover Seder in which we diminish the wine in our cups for the losses of our enemies...who are human as well Name another group who reminds itself of how each loss diminishes us as individuals. It is a teaching which is inculcated into many Jews. Constantly.

Hmm. Would it then not be merely proper to hold a Jewish state to a higher standard than any other?

I mean, if Jews set so much higher standards for themselves than anyone else does, surely it would only be appropriate to go along.

One doesn't often see such claims to moral superiority, does one?

"Name another group who reminds itself of how each loss diminishes us as individuals."? Sure.

I was reared Christian. (I am not a Christian, or a believer in any other supernatural silliness, or in the silliness that individual morality is dependent on acceptance of supernatural silliness.) United Church of Canada, to be specific.
http://www.united-church.ca/

http://www.united-church.ca/ucc/summary.shtm#9

What We Believe

Social Justice

Caring for one another was central to Jesus' teachings: Feed the hungry, satisfy the thirsty, shelter the homeless, clothe the naked, care for the sick, visit those in prison.

We believe we strengthen one another to work, through God's grace, for a better world. To this end, we cooperate with other churches, faith traditions, and people of goodwill to eliminate poverty and protect those who are most vulnerable.

Throughout Africa, Asia, Latin America, and the Caribbean, the United Church works with 143 churches and organizations we call partners by supporting work they see as vital to their well-being. This enables us to feed the hungry, care for the sick, and shelter the homeless far beyond our normal reach.

For more information, see Justice, Global and Ecumenical Relations.

That link contains things like:

Stop the HIV/AIDS Crisis: Cancel the Debt
Call for Full Restoration of Civil Liberties in the Philippines
Protest the Violence in Darfur
Water in Focus
Take Action to Control Small Arms
MISSION THEME (2005--2007) Living in Right Relationship
Sign the Seed Savers Petition
Extend a Lifeline: Sponsor a Refugee

Beat that, bub.

In fact, I'd say that it beats "diminishing the wine" in one's cup hands down.

But hey, if you want to publicly claim the moral high ground for Israel based on the religious practices of the people which it embodies, far be it from me to interfere. Looks good on somebody screeching about anti-Semitism.

[liberalhistorian]

44. And whose fault is that?

Which country reacted with total and complete overkill and is now destroying Lebanon (and mostly civilians and civilian infrastructure at that, and NOT military targets)?

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Want a more recent one?!

There easy to come by!

[muntrv]

5. We're all Isreali's? Considering some of the anti-Jewish remarks by

some Republicans (pat buchanan), I'd like to know how?

[shance]

10. My two cents: 'Israelis' didn't drop the leaflets, the war profiteers did

Whoever is profitting from this war profits from the hatred, racism and division that leaflets like this will create.

The War profiteers make the big bucks from "bombs bursting in air", and keeping tensions escalated, racism ignited and using obvious tactics like this to keep those fires a burnin and those people dying.

Now certainly some of the profiteers could be Israeli, but there are also American profiteers as well and who knows who else.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. Much ado about NOTHING!

Sometimes, I just get sick at watching people reach for anything they can to attack Jews and Israelis. I am so disgusted by quite a few posters here.

[Spazito]

16. I believe you posted cartoons used by the Nazis and Arab extremists

as despicable, cartoons used to incite anger and even worse against Israel and the Jewish people. Do you condemn, without equivocation, these as well?

I NEVER, NEVER thought I would live to see the day that Israel would use the same tool to incite anger or worse that was used on the Jewish people with such catastrophic results. NEVER.

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Do you REALLY not see the difference?!

Look at them ONE more time. If you don't see why the leaflets dropped (if that is true), are any different than the OTHER examples, then let me know. But, if you do see the difference, I'd like for you to say it.

[oberliner]

18. lockable?

I strongly feel that this thread comparing Israel and Nazi Germany should be locked.

[Cameron27]

20. I think so too n/t

[liberalhistorian]

49. Well, heaven forbid we should ever, ever

criticize and/or condemn Israel. Never mind that it's destroying an entire country and creating a horrendous humanitarian crisis. I guaran-damn-tee you that if over 600,000 Israelis were refugees who'd lost everything, the same posters here ho-humming about Lebanon would be jumping up and down and screaming. Guess it's different when it's the other side.

[Behind the Aegis]

53. woosh...right over your head!

The objection is not to criticism of Israel, but the comparison to Nazi Germany. And if it were 600,000 Israelis fleeing, the other side would still be blaming the Israelis!

[liberalhistorian]

57. I would not be blaming Israelis,

but I really don't think we'll ever have to worry about seeing 600,000 Israeli refugees.

[Behind the Aegis]

59. I hope we never have to find out!

[liberalhistorian]

79. Well, we're certainly finding out what the Israeli

reaction to hundreds of thousands of Lebanese refugees is, though, aren't we?

And yes, I also pray that we never have to see such numbers, or any numbers for that matter, of Israeli refugees.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

71. so what?

[banjoterror]

97. Who is equating Israel with Nazi Germany?

I equate Israel far more with our more contemporary Evil Empire: US.

[Spazito]

19. I see no difference in them, they are all to dehumanize, degrade

those depicted and to desensitize the populace from any feelings of humanity to those targeted. Please tell me what you see different? Is it a matter of degree?

[Behind the Aegis]

23. Thank you for your response.

The first problem is the "author" of the piece is a fool in trying to say anti-Arab cartoons are "anti-Semitic." They are not! I know the whole spiel about "Arabs are Semites." That is NOT what that word means, despite those trying to change it for their own political and anti-Semitic reasons!

Second, the first cartoon set represents a GROUP of terrorists as a snake. I hardly think that is inappropriate.

And finally, since it seems no one is picking up on this very important point. The first cartoon set is very specific. It is not defaming all Arabs or Muslims, or even Lebanese. The following cartoons depict ALL Jews!

No, what is happening here is a blatant attempt to paint the Jews/Israelis (notice how the author of the piece conflates the two) as being as racist as their counterparts. It is not the same thing!

[Spazito]

25. Thank you, in return, for your honest response

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this. I think we can agree, however, it is a sad, dark time for all of us.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. You're welcome!

I can accept "agree to disagree." And, I do agree, it is a sad, dark time for us all!

[Spazito]

29. I know, regardless of all the different perspectives on the current

crisis, we are all shedding tears so I would like to offer this: a hug and I will not post on this thread any further and leave it to others to comment or not.

:hug:

[Behind the Aegis]

30. Back atcha...

:hug:

[oberliner]

27. ...

Well said, but doesn't arguing with these points give them a legitmacy that they do not deserve?

[Behind the Aegis]

28. perhaps...

...but I'd rather a few people get educated, especially those who just read and don't post, and not allow them to be sucked into the anti-Israeli/Jewish propaganda.

[Cameron27]

31. Never thought of that

I temporarily retract my "request" that the thread be locked.

(I'm down with a high fever, cough and miserable headache for the past three days, so my posts are just little more than a line or two to show my support. (and so I won't be flamed, no I don't give unconditional support to anyone, but in this, I believe Israel has chosen a difficult but correct response)

Back to bed till ASA kicks in again.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. Me Too

I have a real bad cold. It must be going around.


I can't see the cartoon that well.



If the cartoon in question has Arabs with exaggerated physical characteristics I have big problems with it.

[Cameron27]

38. I didn't see any facial or physical

characteristics. I thought it was an artery representing hezbollah or a snake type thing. I wonder if there's a link to a bigger pic just to be sure. I would have a problem with a grotesque cartoon also.

Sorry you've got a cold. I feel miserable...whatever it is, I want it to go away.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. Hope you feel better.

If you go to the link, you can click on the picture and it will make it about 10 times larger and easier to see.

[Cameron27]

52. I went to the link when I first posted, lol,

I'm not young, but I ain't creakin' either,....now the thing looks like a snake smoking a cigarette. Maybe I'm overdosing on aspirin.

Thank you, I'm sure I'll be better in a few days.

Oops, forgot to click on the pic...duh I'm just not doing well at all today.

[madaboutharry]

75. I agree with what you say here. Johnson indeed is off base

here. He really demonstrates a lot of ignorance of history and shows himself to be jumping on a bandwagon. Another thing that is disturbing is that most of us do not know what the text says and I don't think Johnson knows either. Actually knowing what is written could make a very big difference in interpreting the picture.

[Postman]

76. So you wouldn't have a problem with the 2nd cartoon...

if it were depicting Olmert or Sharon (earlier) poking Bush with a stick, as opposed to it representing all Jews?

[Behind the Aegis]

89. I would object because it is not true.

However, it wouldn't be an example anti-Semitic propaganda.

[liberalhistorian]

48. Yeah? Well, maybe we're so disgusted

by people who give Israel a pass on everything and who have no problem with them destroying an entire country, including vital infrastructure, causing the deaths and wounding of hundreds, creating a horrendous humanitarian crisis with more than 600,000 Lebanese refugees and counting, all over two captured soldiers. ISRAEL is the one pouring fuel on the fire here, Olmert doesn't know what the fuck he's doing and the country is completely out of control. Condemning Israel's actions is not condemning Jews. Just because we don't give Israel a free pass with all the unneccesary death and destruction it's causing doesn't automatically equate to anti-semitism. I suppose the thousands of anti-war Jews who rallied in Tel Aviv are all anti-semitic against themselves?

We have the right to condemn bombing and destruction and murders of an entire civilian population when we see it, regardless of the country involved. Or is the only death and destruction that matters to you those that occur in Israel?

[Behind the Aegis]

50. The only thing that disgusts you is Israel.

Your hate of Israel is palatable. I have seen you spew it all over. I have seen posters make rational criticisms of Israel and Israeli policy and actions. But, you and other posters like you are so engrossed in your hate for Israel, that you blindly attack her at every turn. If you actually opened you eyes, you'd see that the OP(ost) is conflating Israel and Jews. I thought that was something your "side" hated? Do you only hate when our "side" does it?

Condemn who you want. But do Israeli deaths not matter to you?

[liberalhistorian]

54. Yes, of course they do.

ALL deaths on all sides matter. But I see no recognition that the Lebanese deaths matter, or that the unwarranted destruction of an entire country and the creation of a horrendous humanitarian crisis, with hundreds of thousands of refugees who've lost everything, matters to posters such as yourself. Israelis are still in a far better physical and economic condition than the majority of Arabs surrounding them. And yes, I'm well aware that Arab countries and corrupt governments share the blame for that.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. You have seen every one of my posts?

I find it sad that because I am "pro-Israeli," I therefore, must not care about the deaths of Lebanese and the destruction of Lebanon. Hmmm...sounds so familiar? Oh I know..."you are with us or against us!" :eyes: It sounds like those who demonize all Arabs as terrorists.

[liberalhistorian]

55. If calling Israel out on its actions is

"hatred of Israel", then I plead guilty. I have no hatred for Israel, I just don't believe it should be given a free pass in everything. Nor do I have any love for Arab leaders who want the destruction of Israel.

[Behind the Aegis]

58. But that is not what YOU do.

As I said, I have seen others criticize Israel, but they do not rise to the vitriol that you have used in many of your posts about Israel.

[banjoterror]

98. Is it anti Israeli

to dislike apologists for wholesale slaughter? I have no beef with Israel as a nation. I can understand that controlling a small land mass surrounded by antagonistic nations doesn't necessarily lead to a long term peaceful co-existence. The way that you, Aegis, will so violently denounce all the people on this thread who are opposed to Israel's actions seems unfair. You are imputing a hatred of Israel and all things Israeli as well as a generalized anti-semitism to posters who seem to have been consistently saying that their problem is not with Israel but with the present actions of the Israeli government. Maybe you're saying that we (we being people angrily opposed to Israel current invasion of Lebanon) are like angry old racist conservative white men who "don't hate n*****s," but I really don't think that's the case. Maybe it would be better to say that I am against rabid Zionists.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[springhill]

102. I just can't wrap my mind around some of these posts........

How can people not understand the this isn't all one-sided. As if Israel has no part in the total chaos in the Middle East. I will acknowledge, as may others have, that the attacks against Israeli innocents are descipable. But that does not excuse the Israel government from their own atrocities. And there have been plenty. The number of civilians killed by Israel far outweighs those of the Palestinians. My own view is the people of the United States, because we have not been involved in a war on our own shores in our lifetime are just plain indifferent to the suffering it causes. I think if we had the kind of destruction that other countries have experienced, we would not be so eager to cheer on the destruction. That is why so many in the beginning of the Iraq war were gung-ho, while in other countries they knew the devestation that would follow.

It's just very disheartening to hear the kind of disconnect by some to the suffering of anyone from any country.

And by the way, why can't people also understand that the criticism would be just as loud against Lebanon and Hizbollah were the roles reversed and they were bombing entire neighborhoods, bridges, infrastructure, etc. The reason the criticism of Israel is louder from some of us is because of the total devestation they are causing on a country who cannot respond other than to lob missiles.

It's like when we invaded Iraq. They were defenseless. We defeated their army with not much resistance, because there was none. Is that a war? I think not. It's more like a slaughter.

[Ms. Clio]

35. infuckingcredible

even more so that anyone would try to justify this.

k & r

[texasleo]

36. Imagine if a Mexican-American said "We are all Mexicans"

:eyes:

[Ms. Clio]

37. "git a rope" n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

42. ?!?!?

Melmehan is not Israeli. So, your 'analogy' makes no sense.

[iverglas]

101. cripey

Melmehan is not Israeli. So, your 'analogy' makes no sense.

Is a Mexican-American Mexican??

But fine; how about if a Roman Catholic USAmerican said "we (USAmericans, I take it) are all citizens of the Vatican" in response to outcries about atrocities condoned by the Pope?

Hmm, maybe: is it difficult to construct analogies involving a state that identifies itself as embodying a people defined by their religion?

[liberalhistorian]

51. There was a time when I would have agreed

with the "we are all Israelis" statement and would have cheered on anything and everything done by Israel, giving it a free pass. But that time has long, long passed. Now, I resent such a statement by one of my "leaders" and I refuse to have anything to do with a country that is responsible for such death and destruction against other countries. And that goes for those in the Arab world thirsting for Israel's destruction as well. A pox on both of their houses.

[Cameron27]

39. What the HELL is it?

I've been staring at the damn thing and now I don't know what I'm seeing anymore.

46. me too

What is it?

[Wonk]

62. There are higher resolution versions of the cartoons at the link.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. I Still Don't Get It

Most anti-semitic cartoons consisted of depicting Jews with exaggerated physical characteristics. That's despicable.



(If) this cartoon depicts Arabs as having exaggerated physical characteristics it is despicable as well.

[Behind the Aegis]

61. "If" is the operative word.

There is not exaggerated features in the first set of cartoons. Some will say that the Iranian president's nose is "too big," but he does have big nose. Besides, I have NEVER seen that "feature" as one used to defame Arabs!

Also, an anti-Arab or Islamaphobic cartoon is NOT anti-Semitic. But, where you are correct, is if they (Arabs or Muslims) were portrayed as terrorists, horribly disfigured (over-exaggerated features), then THAT would be racist (anti-Arab or Islamaphobic).

[blonndee]

63. Question: it looks to me as though

he is depicted as a cobra snake. Do you consider that to be "horribly disfigured?" Honest question--I haven't formed an opinion on this issue yet, although I am very uncomfortable with a human (meant, apparently, to represent a group of humans collectively, i.e., Arabs) being portrayed in such a way.

[Behind the Aegis]

65. The "cobra" is Hizb'allah, not Arabs, Muslims, nor the Lebanese.

In the first clip it is shown as having a 'stranglehold' over So. Lebanon. In the second clip, it is shown that it is controlled by Iran, Syria, and I think the one off to the left is the Lebanese president, but I am not certain.

"Horribly disfigured" means over-exaggerated features...big lips, wide nose on AA people, large noses on Jews, slits for eyes for Asians, and the like.

The cartoons in clip one do not represent a group of humans (Arabs nor Muslims), unlike the other two examples which represent ALL Jews.

[blonndee]

68. Hm. Okay, on review

I see what you mean that it's meant to be specifically Hezbollah. Thanks for pointing that out. I think I now agree with you that these cartoons don't "equate" with the anti-semitic, anti-Jewish cartoons.

[Cameron27]

69. It looks like Nasrallah

The cartoon is in the same vein as Herb Block cartoons during WWII

Nasrallah is a terrorist and his organization, hezbollah does have a stranglehold on Lebanon. It's a representation of 1 person not a generalization of the entire Arab population. That's the difference IMO.

[rman]

91. Anti-semitic cartoons depict jews as evil.

These anti-muslim cartoons depict muslims as evil in a like manner as anti-semitic cartoons depict jews as evil.

[Behind the Aegis]

92. No...they do not.

The cartoons are not Islamaphobic. It is no different than cartoons that portray Bush as a simian. It doesn't mean all Christians (or even Americans) are simians. The cobra is the head of Hizb'allah, not all Arabs nor all Muslims. The other two examples, however, represent ALL Jews!

[Scurrilous]

67. Anti-Hizbullah T-shirt for sale on eBay

Fashion website joins companies trying to take advantage of fighting in Lebanon, tries to sell T-shirt displaying flyers dropped by IDF over Beirut

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278092,00.html

<snip>

"A fashion website has joined the wave of companies trying to take advantage of the fighting in Lebanon in order to gain some public relations. The website's owner rushed to put an anti-Hizbullah T-shirt for sale on eBay .

On the front of the T-shirt, its creators printed the original flyers that the Israel Defense Forces dropped over Beirut on Saturday, depicting Hizbullah leader Hassan Nasrallah as a cobra snake ready to swallow Beirut.

The slogan "Fight Terrorism" and the IDF's logo in yellow lettering are printed on the back of the T-shirt.

According to the website's owner, the t-shirts are being put up for auction and all proceeds will be donated to charity to help the victims of terrorism in Israel."

[bloom]

70. The use of the term "anti-Semite"

- when only referring to people who are anti-Jewish (instead of anti-all-Semites) is akin to what people mean when they say others are "anti-American" when they really mean that the people are "anti-right-wing-America" or "anti-the-American-Military-Industrial-Complex". It's like saying that only the right-wing Americans (pro-Military Industrial Complex) count as Americans.

Notice if we say that someone is "anti-American" when we mean that they are "anti-liberal-Americans" - it might take a lot of explaining.

To say that people are anti-Semitic - about people who are clearly supporting Semitic people (who are being bombed by Jewish Semitic people) - is like saying that those Semitic people don't count. Just like the right-wingers who think that liberals don't count as Americans.

It's been a masterful bit of propaganda for the people that use the term. I think that the common usage of the term anti-Semitic is as racist in itself - against non-Jewish Semites - as it's users think in reverse.

Just like - "Anti-American" is so ingrained in our minds - we know what the term means whether we like it or not. That does NOT mean that I have to use it that way - as I don't agree with it's common usage. And really - it means that it doesn't make sense to use the phrase at all.



If someone is anti-Jewish - they are anti-Jewish. If someone is anti-Zionist - they are anti-Zionist.

And people who are anti-offensive-war are anti-offensive war.


There do not need to be confusing terms for people to write clearly. The term anti-Semitic is useless AFAIC.

[Behind the Aegis]

73. .

:eyes:

[liberalhistorian]

80. I'm afraid you're really not making much sense.

Anti-semitic is the term that is used to denote anti-Jewish bigotry and discrimination, and anti-Jewish bigotry is what comes to mind when the term is used. What you're describing is just verbal gymnastics.

[bloom]

85. You end up with these weird things

where Jewish Semites call other Semites "human filth". While the person is clearly anti-(non-Jewish)-Semites - you couldn't say that he was anti-Semitic - even though he is.


I think that it's the term that doesn't make sense - not me.

There are a lot of things in our language that don't make sense. That is one of many.

[oberliner]

86. info on the term

Despite the use of the prefix "anti," the terms Semitic and Anti-Semitic are not antonyms. To avoid the confusion of the misnomer, many scholars on the subject (such as Emil Fackenheim of the Hebrew University) now favor the unhyphenated term antisemitism. Yehuda Bauer articulated this view in his writings and lectures: (the term) "Antisemitism, especially in its hyphenated spelling, is inane nonsense, because there is no Semitism that you can be anti to.")<6><7>

The term anti-Semitism has historically referred to prejudice towards Jews alone, and this was the only use of this word for more than a century. It does not traditionally refer to prejudice toward other people who speak Semitic languages (e.g. Arabs or Assyrians). Bernard Lewis, Professor of Near Eastern Studies Emeritus at Princeton University, says that "Anti-Semitism has never anywhere been concerned with anyone but Jews."<8>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism

[Warren DeMontague]

82. Here's a cartoon that pretty much sums the situation up:

If someone has a problem with it, please tell me where it's factually inaccurate.

[Pacifist Patriot]

93. I have a question about it.

What about the road map to peace on the part of sovereign governments? I don't see where the Lebanese government's perspective is included. Or are we to understand that Hezbollah and Hamas ARE the Lebanese government?

Just curious because if Al Quaeda's road map to peace showed a map of North America I wonder if the United States might be missing from the map. I can easily see that as a political cartoon in late 2001 / early 2002.

[Taoschick]

99. Link?

Does anyone have a link to an actual copy of the leaflets dropped into Lebanon? On the surface, Larry's cartoon is extremely damning but I haven't been able to verify it anywhere else.

[iverglas]

103. And now: what the cartoon means

I have only my curiosity and google. Comment from an actual Muslim, or someone more learnèd in Islam than I, would be appreciated.


The pictorial instruction dropped on Lebanon shows a fanged cobra rising out of what I assume to be the neighbourhoods of Beirut where Hezbollah amounts to the local government, turning back on those places and preparing to consume them.

The cobra itself appears to have the head and face of Sheik Hassan Nasrallah:


http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/02/20/lebanon050220.html

(The other one portrays him being summoned from his jar by what I take to be political leaders I don't recognize. And my knowledge of Arabic script extends to being able to pronounce some of what I see, but not to having a clue as to what it means. I'd like to know what he is depicted as saying, if anyone can tell.)

It certainly does convey a number of things ... none of which is likely to win the hearts and minds of much of anybody, I'd think.

And one has to wonder whether there was some less literal meaning intended that non-Muslims aren't getting:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/snakes.htm
"Muhammed and the Snakes"

Essentially, "snake" is used as a metaphor for jinn, which I gather to be roughly equivalent to Satan and the fallen angels in Christian mythology -- evil people or spirits falsely claiming to be followers of the religion's founder/figurehead:

A young Muslim man returns home and finds his wife standing near the door. He assumes immediately she’s an adulterer and raises his weapon to kill her. But she warns him that something dangerous is within their house. The man rushes in and on the bed is a large snake. The man attacks the snake and kills it, but during the struggle he is also bitten, both die quickly.

Some snakes are jinn; so when anyone sees one of them in his house, he should give it a warning three times. If it return (after that), he should kill it, for it is a devil.

So to summarize, as I understand it:

The cartoon uses Muslim religious metaphor to depict the leader of Hezbollah as Satan or a follower of Satan, coming back to bite the Lebanese people.

Not insulting on many levels at all, is it?

[oberliner]

104. Attacking One Specific Political Figure vs. Attacking all Jews

Do people seriously not see a difference?

And on a related note, why is there such a fascination with trying to find comparisons between the nazis and Israel?