The Temple Mount is at the center

[OxQQme]

of this holy war.
That level 36 acre platform constructed of 100 ton blocks of granite imported from elsewhere, placed on sloping bedrock on the side of Mount Moriah, had been there for thousands of years before we humans started placing temples on it to entice the 'gods' to return.
'We humans' can currently build such a platform by pouring it into place but can not duplicate such a feat as machining, moving and placing with such precision, granite blocks of that magnitude.
The real question is, what was it's original purpose.
Why do the three major one-god religions consider it holy enough to fight about.
Flame away if you must...............
When the architects return all will be moot.

[zanne]

1. "Gimme that Ole' Time Religion..."

I think that most people understand that religion is the reason for most warfare; it's just that they don't think it's the fault of their religion. It's the old "My God is better than your God" game.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. The archeaological questions you ask are fascinating

If one looks beyond the God concepts espoused by the various religions, and merely looks at the place as fraught with history, you still see its importance to the region. I believe there have been numerous chambers carved into the rock below the Mount-some say by crusaders, some say earlier. There is a theory that the Ark of the Covenant is concealed somewhere beneath the Temple Mount. And of course the stone with the carved niche atop the Mount is considered by Muslims, and I assume also Jews, to be the place where Abraham set about to sacrifice his son (isn't it interesting, and perhaps telling, that the basic story is shared by all three faiths, but the son's name changes, depending upon if you are Muslim or Christian/Jew). As you probably know, Mohammed (pbuh) first had his followers pray in the direction of the Temple Mount instead of Mecca. It would be interesting if there could be some way of determining how the niche was made (or if it is natural)and finding out how it was used in the past.

[zippy890]

3. I happen to agree with

what your implying. with the exception that I think our race was an alien experiment run amok. when they saw what happened they left never to come back - the architects won't return I daresay.

:hi:

[TankLV]

4. They probably never got paid - so they stopped all work and left the job.

The Owners/Clients were sheisters then and are still sheisters now - screwed the Architects.

Same story, different times.

Nothing ever changes.

[BayCityProgressive]

5. Silly to place God

in temple that doesn't even exist anymore. Maybe God is sending a message to Muslims and us Jews. Stop the violence or neither of you will get your shrines. Why would God want to live in a house won in blood and murder? God's temple should be in everyone's hearts when they commit acts of generosity, compassion, and love. You don't need a brick building for that. Just for the record, the majority of Israeli's do not even support rebuilding a temple in the original location. It is likely that the temple could never even be replicated, they are missing too many details about it.

[zippy890]

7. maybe they should kick everybody out of the area

and let the archaeologists have it. your statement 'missing too many details' is intriguing.

[BayCityProgressive]

9. it is very interesting

you should do some google searches on it. I don't think that many non-Jewish people realize how precise the Temple was built. There were very specific instructions given for the inside and outside of the temple, measurements of certain areas of the temple and precise rituals that had to be performed. Most of this information is gone now...

[misternormal]

10. Since God, in all forms...

... is purported to omnipotent and omnipresent, what is the need of a temple in the first place?

Look around you... whatever there is that powers this universe is in all that is present in nature, not in some man-made structure.

So, with that said, the fighting over a pile of bricks and stone, no matter who designed it, or put them there is totally absurd, and without rational explanation.

[BayCityProgressive]

11. Agreed.

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. I had the pleasure a few days ago

of explaining to a young Jewish woman what the rapture was all about. She didn't know that it required destroying the Temple Mount in order for their 'Jesus' to return, and that the result of Jesus's return is that there would be no more Jews.

[BayCityProgressive]

8. I think many many

Jews are very suspicious of evangelical Christians. SOmetimes it is strategic for Israelis to side with American Christians but it could really come back to bite them in the ass. Most evangelicals in the end want the end of the world, the destruction of Israel, and the return of Jesus to convert all the rest of the Jews or throw them in a lake of fire! Gotta love those "good news of Christ" Christians lol.

** On edit I apologize to any Evangelical Christians I may have offended. I have many progressive Christian friends. I was referring to the Pat Robertson Jerry Falwell freaks. I guess a better word than evangelical would be Talibornagain.

[leftofthedial]

12. it is the original site of a water hole and a patch of grass

Timeline of the Middle East Conflict and the Rise of Monotheistic Religion

10,000 BC: A clan of caveman from the mountains of what is now Sinai became nomadic in response to drought.They knew the Egyptians would kick their ass and make them slaves and make them lift heavy rocks all day, so they wandered north and east searching for water and grazing lands for their goat. By coincidence, another clan from the area we now call Damascus also began wandering, searching for water for their goat. They knew the Babylonians would kick their ass and make them slaves and make them wrestle lions all day, so they wandered south and west.

As luck would have it, both groups arrived simultaneously in the area near present-day Jerusalem, and found a water hole and a patch of grass--just enough for a goat.

One thing led to another and they began throwing rocks at one another. Several were killed on both sides. Lemuel, son of Schlemuel from the southern clan, Ahab, son of Schmahab from the northern clan, and a few others were smitten most grievously with stones and verily did die. The two leaders (both being sociopaths, as all politicians are) saw this battle as a chance to increase their power over their respective clans by loudly rousing their side to fight. And oh, the fight was wonderful! Lots of blood and destruction and fear and loathing! The sociopath's dream!

But then, it began raining steadily. Soon, there was enough water for both goats and even enough for the two sides to let their children drink. The sides stopped fighting for a bit while they drank. Pretty soon, the fight was forgotten and a few of the cavemen from different clans actually began grunting most jovially and picking fleas off one another. The goats even started getting romantic.

The sociopath leading the southern clan and the sociopath leading the northern clan both realized that this peaceful drinking was a bad, bad thing. Neither wanted to share power and control over the water hole and the patch of grass. What to do? What to do? Beng sociopaths, they both had long ago convinced their followers that there was a bearded fat guy in the clouds who made it rain (or not) and that the bearded fat guy wanted *him* and only him to be supreme ruler of the clan. Extending that "divine" authority to include dominion over the water hole and the patch of grass and--what the hell--all the lands a man could ride a mule to in forty days (if he had a mule) was easy work for a sociopath. Presto! The struggle with the other clan was not just about goats drinking water or control of the water hole and the patch of grass or sharing sometimes scarce resources. It was about appeasing the bearded fat guy in the clouds who made it rain (or not). Even though both clans believed there was a bearded fat guy in the clouds who made it rain (or not), as luck would have it, each had made up a slightly different name for him. One clan feared BooBoo and the other feared GooGoo. This, combined with Schlemuel and Schmahab still being pretty pissed off that their sons were dead, made starting the fight back up a piece of cake!

Voila! Each side had to revenge their dead AND prove that they owned the water hole and the patch of grass AND prove that their bearded fat guy in the clouds who made it rain (or not) was the only true bearded fat guy in the clouds who made it rain (or not). And what the hell, why not take the other guy's goat and some of his women while we're at it too! After all, GooGoo, MY bearded fat guy in the clouds who makes it rain (or not) is bigger than BooBoo, YOUR bearded fat guy in the clouds who makes it rain (or not). And what's more, I used to know Lemuel. He was a pretty good guy and he wasn't planning to be killed by a rock that one of you stinking bastards threw! I'm gonna kill you, you evil scum terrorist bastards! I'm gonna kill you. All of you deserve to die. You are murderers AND you worship the wrong bearded fat guy in the clouds who makes it rain (or not)! Die! Die! Die! Kill! Kill! Kill!

(To complete the timeline, throw in a couple of times when one clan or the other left for a while and then came back. Also throw in a foreign conqueror every hundred years or so. Change the names of the clans and the name of the bearded fat guy in the clouds who makes it rain (or not) once in awhile. Otherwise, repeat pretty much the above scenario every twenty or thirty years from 10,000 BC to present.)

[OxQQme]

14. O My GOB leftofthedial

what a delightful read. You nailed it in regards todays ME tension.
Doesn't address the question, "Who built the platform?"

[leftofthedial]

17. the goats?

:shrug:

lots of interesting architecture in the ME and Mediterranean.

[Emit]

21. Lol! n/t

[JNelson6563]

13. Which clearly demostrates

the level of stupidity we humans like stoop to.

My god can beat up your god.

Julie

[onager]

15. Thanks for the laughs.

I'm currently working in Egypt. This is the tourist season, during which Egypt is overrun by woo-woos--almost always Americans--blathering on about the "real architects" of the Giza Pyramids.

The really funny part: they lecture their tour guides, the only people who will listen to them (because they get paid/tipped to listen). The tour guides are usually moonlighting students with/working on degrees in Egyptian history or archaeology. They must have a lot of trouble keeping a straight face.

This is the same nonsense, sited in Jerusalem instead of Cairo.

The argument that our ancestors "couldn't have" built this or that structure always pisses me off. It's an insult to our ancestors and our common human heritage.

Heck, I'm in Alexandria, Egypt, where there are some ancient docks and stone jetties that probably date back before Pre-Dynastic Egypt. I think Homer even mentioned them, when he wrote about "an isle in the surging sea, a day's sail from Egypt, called Pharos..."

As a cranky aside: Homer's geography is about as reliable as that in the Buy-bull. Either that or the Greeks had the slowest ships ever. Pharos is a half-mile from the Egyptian coast, not "a day's sail." Close enough that Alexander The Great's successors built a causeway to the island, which eventually silted up enough for houses to be built on it. For hundreds of years now, it has been the section of Alexandria called "Turkish Town."

And of course, Pharos was the site of ancient Alexandria's scientific marvel, the Pharos Lighthouse. How come nobody ever makes up woo-woo stories about that structure? It was the world's first lighthouse. Stood for a thousand years and we have no idea how it worked. Couldn't it have been a beacon for alien spaceships or something? (Motive: I love Alexandria and am trying to divert some of the Rich American Woo-Woo traffic here, instead of Cairo.)

Then there's the fascinating area near Alexandria called Taposiris Magna, which apparently existed even before the Egyptians created a legend about it housing the body parts of the god Osiris.

The archeologists eventually figured out the most likely real use of these baffling structures between the Mediterranean and ancient Lake Mareotis. Once they uncovered enough of the complex and saw its orientation to the surrounding waterways, it was revealed as...an ancient Customs station!

:rofl:

End of guided tour. Tips appreciated.

[Johnyawl]

16. The greek ships WERE slow, onager

fat little tubs with one badly rigged square sail, and oars. They couldn't sail into the wind, could barely sail across the wind, and were slow sailing downwind. If the wind wasn't directly behind them, they doused the sail and rowed. Ever try rowing with the wind and tide against you? The basic greek/roman ship wasn't all that seaworthy, which is why neither the Greeks nor Romans made any serious nautical excursions outside the Mediteranian.

And great post, by the way, thank you.

[CJCRANE]

18. My dad

has a theory that there is a Being that feeds off all the psychic energy that we humans create, whether it be positive (as in prayer) or negative (as in war), and is somehow manipulating us to generate as much as possible.

That's his explanation for the genocides of the 20th century and the conflicts we see today, which seem to be beyond the furtherance of mere human ambition.

I realise that doesn't answer your question exactly, but it sort of keys in with the idea that a lot of religious buildings are often on sites of power, where ley lines cross etc (if you believe in that kind of thing. I personally don't, but I like those kind of ideas in a sci-fi/fantasy setting).

[Emit]

19. Michael Ledeen thinks so, too.

That it's at the center of this holy war.

Here's an article written by, of all people, Michael Ledeen and his wife, Barbara, discussing Christian and Jewish fundamentalists. In light of your post, thought you might be interested in it. I have read that Ledeen and his wife are/were involved in the Temple Mount movement (I cannot confirm this with a decent source).

A CASUAL OBSERVER might be excused for believing that nearly all of the recent violence in Israel has been part of the usual cycle of Arab-Israeli conflict. The observer would be wrong. Though some of the recent acts ... seem to be the work of extremist Israeli nationalists, much of the destructive intent is fueled by a mixture of nationalist politics, messianic longing, and the search for roots. In fact, some of the current extremism is a direct outgrowth of the ancient forecast of the Apocalypse... The targets of the most spectacular incidents over the past months have been Muslim authorities and the area they control in Jerusalem, but for the most part the people who planned or participated in the attacks are the violent fringe of an informal movement that stretches from the United States to the Middle East, and encompasses millions of evangelical Christians as well as some Israeli Jews. This unlikely coalition rests upon a common belief that the Final Days are upon us. For the Christians, this means that the Second Coming of Christ is imminent; for the Jews, the Messiah is about to arrive. Both believe that the crucial spot for the fulfillment of the Biblical prophecies is the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, because that is where the Temple of Solomon is to be rebuilt. According to the fundamentalist understanding of Christian prophecy, three great events are required for the Second Coming: Israel must be a Jewish nation; Jerusalem must be a Jewish city; and the Temple must be rebuilt. Today only the third condition remains to be met. Though most Jews believe that the building of the Temple will occur after the arrival of the Messiah, a growing number of deeply religious Jews believe that efforts to rebuild the Temple, and other steps for its proper functioning, should be made before the Messianic Age.

~snip~

On March 10, 1983, more than forty Jews suspected of planning to penetrate the Temple Mount were arrested in Jerusalem. ... Their legal fees--amounting to $50,000--were paid by wealthy Christian evangelicals from Texas. Less than a year later, only last January 27, Israeli security forces thwarted an assault on the Mount ... There is good reason to believe that the money for this group, the so-called Lifta Band, also came from Christian sources in America ... the suspects began to be cooperative only after an Israel officer had "scolded them for using a Bible published by a Christian group as their religious source." ... At the Temple Mount the religious passions of the Muslim, Christian, and Jewish religions intersect as at no other on earth. Not only is the Mount the site of Solomon's Temple, it is also where Abraham came to sacrifice his son Isaac; where Jesus taught, and threw the money-changers out of the Temple; from where Mohammed ascended through the seven Heavens into the presence of Allah... Except for a few years during the Crusades, the Temple Mount has been under Muslim control since the conquest of Jerusalem almost fourteen hundred years ago... Political pragmatism, however, is unlikely to withstand the messianic passions that are directed at the Temple Mount... The Israeli courts have generally denied the right of Jews to pray on the Temple Mount, but there are signs of change there, too. ... The driving force behind the Temple Mount movement, however, is the American evangelical community, some 45.5 million strong. The evangelicals met regularly with former Prime minister Menachem Begin over the years, reportedly urging him to rebuild the Temple, and they raced to Washington this spring to endorse the proposal to move the American Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, citing Biblical prophecies of the day in the near future when Jerusalem will become the capital of the world. ... The most visible link between the evangelicals and the drive to rebuild the Temple is found in the Jerusalem Temple Foundation in Los Angeles, the latest of several organizations (and the only such group in the United States) designed to put pressure on the Israeli government to limit the Waqf's control over the Temple Mount. The chairman and executive director of this ecumenical foundation are Terry Risenhoover and Douglas Krieger, two Christian evangelicals who have the means, the energy, and the network of friends necessary to catalyze a mass movement (Risenhoover is a multimillionaire, owner of a company called Alaska Land Leasing that is currently planning searches for oil in Judea and Samaria). ... ... Deloach's senior pastor at the Second Baptist Church in Houston (the switchboard operator answers calls by saying, "The amazing second"), H. Edwin Young, is likely to be the next president of the 13 million-member Southern Baptist Convention, America's largest Protestant body. Both pastors accompany groups to Israel and take them to the Temple Mount and to the Jewish yeshivahs training priests for the Temple. Deloach is candid about his objectives: "We will do whatever is right and politically expedient to make that Temple Mount free for all three religions." ...

~snip~

Some of the members of these committees, yeshivahs, and groups are simply interested in the historical or scientific aspects of the Temple Mount. But many--and their number is growing--are working for a Jewish presence on the Mount, and eventually the rebuilding of the Temple. Some of these people are highly orthodox, and firmly believe that the Messiah will soon arrive. Others are primarily Israeli nationalists, who view Muslim control of the Temple Mount as an insult to the Zionist Dream. But in the end the religious and nationalistic themes are hard to distinguish from each other, and the effect is the same: Waqf control over the Temple Mount is being challenged. ...BY FAR the most dynamic of the challengers is the Israeli section of the Jerusalem Temple Foundation, headed by Stanley Goldfoot, a South African Jew who came to Israel in the '30s and fought in the Stern Gang during the postwar period. A passionate nationalist, a highly skilled rhetorician, and a man of demonstrated activism, Goldfoot believes that the Temple Mount belongs to Israel, and to Israel alone. ... Goldfoot sees the Christians as logical allies, for he believes that "Christian fundamentalists are the real modern-day Zionists"; in Goldfoot's view, it is the christians above all who realize that "we are coming to a crucial period in earth's history, and they want to help fulfill prophecy and thus hasten the coming of the Messiah." ...It is thus not so surprising that those who planned to sabotage the Temple Mount in January carried Christian versions of the Old Testament, for the Temple Mount movement is based on a messianic vision that, at least in its first stages, is common to both Jewish and Christian religions. To be sure, there is a basic disagreement, but it is one that will only be resolved in the Final Days. As one Jewish leader put it to us last summer in Jerusalem, "They believe that once the Temple is built, Jesus will come again. We expect the Messiah to come for the first time. Let's build the Temple, and see what he looks like."

~snip~

Historically, messianic movements tend to be strongest in periods of intense internal turmoil and external threat. Both of these elements are present in contemporary Israel, and the Israelis' anxieties are largely shared by the American "Christian Zionists." All we know about the Temple Mount suggests that it will grow in interest and become a source of conflict, with international consequences that are hard to predict. Up until the arrests of the twenty-five extremists, the Israeli government either ignored the Temple Mount movement or attempted to co-opt it, but neither approach was successful. It remains to be seen whether the arrests will dampen the ardor of the zealots. With the redemption of mankind and the fulfillment of prophecy at stake, arrests are transformed into temporary setbacks, extremism becomes righteous action, and political considerations pale into such insignificance that even conservative Christians and radical Jewish nationalists can become allies.

Source Citation: Ledeen, Michael, and Barbara Ledeen. "The Temple Mount plot: what do Christian and Jewish fundamentalists have in common?." The New Republic 190 (June 18, 1984): 20(4). It is from Lexis-Nexis so I have no link.

[Emit]

20. Nobody else finds this odd?

Ledeen writing on this subject?

As for Barbara Ledeen, an aide to Santorum at the Senate Republican Conference, she does seem to be involved in creating alliances:

Conservative Christians and Orthodox Jews “are just a natural alliance,” said Barbara Ledeen, an aide to Santorum at the Senate Republican Conference.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=13926

COURTING THE COMMUNITY:
Jewish defections irk Dems (Alexander Bolton, 3/30/04, The Hill)

“On the GOP side they’ve been very aggressive in courting the community,” said Nathan Diament, director of public policy at the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations. “The point person on the Senate side is Rick Santorum. Over the past two or three years they’ve been working the community and having a lot of meetings.”

Diament said Barbara Ledeen, the director of coalitions for the Senate Republican Conference, initiated the efforts.

Sen. Norm Coleman (R-Minn.), who is Jewish, has also been active. He has traveled around the country “stumping in Jewish venues trying to convey a sense of why Republicans are more deserving of support,” said Diament.

http://www.thehill.com/news/033004/jewish.aspx

Personally, I find this interesting. I know Michael Ledeen has written extensively about Machiavelli, Nationalism and Fascism. I realize that Machiavellian philosophy advocates using religion to control the masses. What's going on here? Who's using who (whom?)?



Edited to add a note off subject but equally as interesting. Barbara Ledeen, apparently may have been responsible for Santorum and Hoekstra's WMD in Iraq claim a short while back:

It's also worth pointing out that a couple weeks back, I was told by a Republican Hill source with direct knowledge that the person who originally brought the "non-governmental source" with the recent "WMD in Iraq" claims to Hoekstra's attention was Barbara Ledeen, the director of coalitions at the National Republican Senatorial committee, headed by Sen. Santorum; calls to Santorum's office inquiring about that were not returned. (The strange thing is, when I spoke to Gaubatz after learning this, he said he had written Hoekstra independently, and first spoken to him by telephone on a conference call that was held in Weldon's office. He couldn't recall Barbara Ledeen at all. Which perhaps bolsters evidence that there's another source on the claims in the mix. Perhaps this fellow, former FBI translator William Tierney, who handed off some tapes to Hoekstra?) I suspect the trail to this whole saga runs through the people behind the "Intelligence Summit" chaired by John Loftus earlier this year, in which Loftus presented Gaubatz's and Tierney's claims as a major find. Several US government-connected people reportedly dropped out of the conference at the last minute, reportedly under the orders of DNI Negroponte, with whom Hoekstra seems to have a continuing gripe. Previous incarnations of the Intel summit have included Barbara Ledeen's husband on the advisory board...

http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/2006_07.html