Is Israel going to NUKE Lebanon?

[Joanne98]

Are the bunker buster weapons the US is sending to Israel nuclear?

Here's an animated video put out by the Concerned Scientists Union about the "unintended conquences" of using these tactical nuclear weapons....

This video is about 2 minutes long.....

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/nuclear_weapons/nuclear-bunker-buster-rnep-animation.html

[Cooley Hurd]

1. 4 large explosions in Beirut in the last 10 minutes...

...described as possibly bunkerbusters by MSNBC's Kerry Sanders. Dropped on the Beirut suburbs.

[Joanne98]

4. I don't think to bunker busters are ther yet. I'm trying to find out.

[TankLV]

33. Or more of the stash of weapons hidden by the Hizbollah TERRORISTS.

That is the more likely cause of these "large explosions".

The Israelis have have obtained a massive amount of intelligence over the past few years, so have geared their attacks on these weapons stashes.

THAT is why there are such "loud explosions" all over the place - it's the TERRORISTS' weapons stashes.

[Joanne98]

43. MSNBC saying they were 500 pound bombs.....

But you could be right. It could be a combination of the two.

[Solo_in_MD]

50. the M$M is finally learning that most of the noise is secondaries

Who said they weren't trainable

[TahitiNut]

63. Of course. Everyone knows that Israel is dropping flowers and candy

... and the explosions are merely suicide bombers blowing themselves up in frustration. Golly, I'm surprised there's any question about it. If a nuke goes off in Lebanon, it's clearly and obviously an Iranian nuke, right? :eyes:

We know about those 'secondary explosions' -- they're the reason entire families die in their vehicles in Iraq after being stopped by peaceful US troops handing out money. How stupid can those people be to have so much gasoline in explosive containers (i.e. gas tanks)?

[cali]

2. No.

Israel won't nuke Lebanon for a myriad of reasons.

[Joanne98]

3. What about Iran?

[cali]

8. That's a better question

but my answer would still be no.

[PCIntern]

6. what is going on here at DU?

WTF is ths? "Will Israel NUKE this or that or themselves (Samson option)?" Do the folks here really think that the Israelis are not fighting a limited battle? Does anyone know anything about military operations, or what? Does anyone ask, "Will a Hezbollah come into my kid's classroom in Illinois and set off a bomb belt?"

Let's just stop this, right now.

[xultar]

10. They could certainly nuke the south. They'd have to if they want to

achieve their objective. To totally rid Lebanon of Hezbollah they'd have to nuke the south.

We had this situation not to long ago. They've had a conventional war with Lebanon to rid it of Hezbollah. It didn't work.
Nuke is the only military objective that could work besides a cease fire and diplomacy.

That is how I see it. You can tell me I'm wrong and I won't be upset.

[PCIntern]

13. OK xultar, you're wrong...

Jeebus, Israel is not interested in ratcheting up a nightmare into a global catastrophe. There's been a lot of talk here about the vicioousness and wanton destruction of Lebanon by Israel. Believe me, if they had wanted to, they would have done this already. This is not the mission. The mission is to rid the borders and cities of Israel from ROCKETS FLYING INTO THEIR HOMES ON A REGULAR BASIS.

Why have a military if you don't do something about that? They pulled out of Gaza, got Rockets, pulled out of Lebanon years ago, got rockets. Enough is enough. I live in Philly...is someone going to tell me that it's OK for the descendants of te Delaware Indian Tribe to bomb my house? Because they used to 'own' this valley? Really...

[xultar]

15. But lets be honest. This started cuz they kidnapped 2 IDF soldiers.

If not then just attack GAZA.

[PCIntern]

16. I don't give a damn what the official reason was

I know women who threw their husbands out of the house after years of abuse, aldultery, and other marital war crimes, because a minor incident occurred and they'd had enough.

Once the Hezbllah started kidnapping soldiers, that was it as far as they were concerned. When would it have been OK to make a move, after 15, 40, 70, kidnappings? And then what happens when civilians are kidnapped? They were just not going to wait.

Did you see what happened in IRaq?. Some 12 year old was kidnapped, the family paid 30 thousand bucks, and they found the kid in a plastic bag dead, having been sexually assaulted. This was not done by US soldiers... Does anyone realize exactly what kind of people you're dealing with here? These killers are monstrous. This is not Western Movie-inspired, John Wayne Warfare. This is primitive.

[Lindacooks]

78. Oh please. You equate a woman getting rid of an abusive husband

to deliberate killing of 300 civilians?

No wonder there's such a disproportionate response, with that kind of reasoning.

And saying that the other side are 'monsters' and 'primitive' is flame-bait.

[PCIntern]

80. ''Oh please" yourself...

If people would simply understand analogies, maybe this whole situation could be resolved. My point was...people BREAK - sometimes enough is enough. If they had simply said, OK let's talk about this, another fifty would have been snatched within 24 hours. That's how these people do things.

And AGAIN, if you think the Israelis are unrestrained, you are dead wrong. They are quite aware of how this looks to US citizenry and are most concerned at the highest levels. They were concerned when the bombed the Iraqi reactor to nearly universal condemnation. Then, everyone who knew what was going on in the Middle East breathed a big sigh of relief.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

84. Hasn't Israel kidnapped hundreds of people from southern Lebanon?

Is that not a factor to consider? Or do those Arabs count as "people"?

[Behind the Aegis]

86. if that were true....perhaps...but since it is not.

[Lindacooks]

95. To that poster, no, Arabs do not count as people.

Of course, I have him on ignore, so I can't read his statements. But from other's responses to him, I can tell that I made the right decision.

[Joanne98]

20. No! Israel kidnapped a doctor and his son first.......

http://www.newshounds.us/2006/07/22/u_s_expediting_delivery_of_bunker_busters_to_israel_israeli_tanks_cross_southern_border.php
U. S. Expediting Delivery of Bunker Busters to Israel - Israeli Tanks Cross Southern Border
Reported by Marie Therese - July 22, 2006 - 230 comments
The New York Times reports this morning that the U. S. government has speeded up an order of high-powered armaments slated to be shipped to Israel. Israel, as you know, responded to the abduction of Israeli Cpl. Gilad Shalit with a full-scale attack on Gaza, demolishing a power plant, roads, buildings and other infrastructure. Contrary to what you will hear in American media, Cpl. Shalit was abducted in retaliation for the June 9th shelling deaths of 9 Palestinians on a beach in Gaza and the June 24th abduction of a Palestinian doctor and his brother. In like manner, Israel responded to an incursion in which Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers and killed three others with an air campaign that destroyed the infrastructure of Lebanon. Using a large arsenal of American-supplied weapons, Israel bombed the Beirut airport, reduced many blocks of buildings to rubble, killed over 300 civilians, displaced 500,000 Lebanese and precipitated the evacuation of foreign nationals. At last count 60,000 foreigners have decided to leave Lebanon, creating a need for the largest war-time evacuation of human beings since World War II.

Noam Chomsky explains what really happened on you tube......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKq38COoTG8&eurl=

[cali]

28. We can always go back and back and back

I could inform you, for example, that H'zbollah captured and killed three Israeli soldiers in 2004, I believe it was, and Israel traded prisoners for the corpses. I admire Chomsky, but he errs here, by falling into the trap that it matters a fig who did what first; that that attitude advances nothing in the way of peace. It's circular logic. Surprised to see Chomsky engaging in it.

In addition, claiming that Shalit's capture was a response to the shelling on the beach, begs the question that it takes weeks and weeks to construct a tunnel hundreds of yards long.

What is Chomsky thinking?

[Joanne98]

32. I agree. They both kidnap back and forth........

But the media is only reporting one side.

[TankLV]

38. The only truism here is that violence begets more violence.

I fervently hope and pray that SOMEBODY discovers a way to break this cycle of voilence.

[PCIntern]

41. I'm with you on this...

but remember that it is required that whilst you pray, you KEEP YOUR FEET MOVING. That is that you have to act as well as pray. Do what you can, whatever you think it is.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

44. It's all too easy to fall prey to that type of thinking.

And that, in a nutshell, is the crux of the whole problem. The Middle East as a whole, and Israel and Palesine in particular appear unable to generate forward-thinking rulers/politicians with widespread popular support. Hezbollah, Olmert, Arafat, Netanyahu etc, etc, etc are probably the people least likely to arrive at a peaceful resolution to this whole conflict/war. I find it disgraceful that there are so many people on DU who are willing to parrot the official party positions of Israel, Hezbollah, and Hamas. This is an easy out that provides brilliant rhetorical constructs, but does nothing for the cause of peace.

It does, however, make for great flame wars. And real wars.

[PCIntern]

29. ...we can all the way back to Moses with that line of reasoning, Joanne:

Let me postulate this: Let's assume for the sake of argument that all these little issues like who kidnapped whom, like who shot whom, etc. are the equivalent of Reagan's Welfare Queen issue. Sure, these things happen but is does it apply the majority of those involved?

You can make all the claims you want about who should be in Palestine, but guess what? The Israelis are there, they've established a state during 58 years oif active war, allow protests agisnt this and all the other wars in their streets, have open elections in which all the votes are counted (just like Florida, right?), allow all women equal rights under all laws, have a court system which routinely over-rules the government and grants new trials and expanded rights to all peoples including those who have sworn the destrucion of Israel, treat all within their hospitals, have developed technologies which are utilized world-wide, grow crops where none were grown before, rescued numerous threatened groups such as Ethiopian Jews (purchased from those wonderful Ethiopian governmetn officials), the oppressed Russian Jews, and others, provide intelligence to the western world during these troubled international times, and many other positives for the civilized world.

You think that given the 'right of return' that this would be extant as soon as the population dynamics shifted? You think that if the ISraelis played out a scene from Gandhi that things would just 'work out'? When has Israel sworn the destruction of every Arab in the Middle East? I can show you many instances of leaders of Arab countries and movements saying jsut this about the Jews or the Zionist entity. I take them at their word. Sorry, but it just isn't going to happen - Israel will exist as a sovereign state for a very very long time. The neighbors are going to have to live with this. Egypt figured it out and was paid off, same with Jordan.

[xultar]

75. I'll admit that I didn't know that this occurred. This really makes me

angry @ Israel & the US.

But I will say it is tit for tat so there is always a reason for both to act like asses.

[Behind the Aegis]

87. No, they were arrested.

And unlike the soilders, EVREYONE knows where those two are.

[Benbow]

22. Israel abducted a doctor and his brother first - that is a crime n/t

[PCIntern]

31. ...and there was a Passover seder which was blown up

That is a crime...

Your turn...

[Joanne98]

34. You're right it is. So where are they? We need to know.

[cali]

48. You seem to be terribly confused.

And about as able to break out of the circular thinking trap as too many leaders on both sides.

[xultar]

73. Then before that Hezbollah did something...both need to go to their room

with out dinner and wait for their ass whoopin.

[Obamarama]

77. No, it's not Xultar.

The kidnapped soldiers are the straws that broke the camel's back (no discriminatory pun intended...just using an old expression).

Northern Israel has experienced probably 500+ incoming Katuysha rockets from Hezbollah in the last several months.

[alarimer]

26. They already have escalated this by targeting civilians

and factories,etc. There is no justification.

[TankLV]

36. Thank you for some common sense perspective on this.

It is much needed here on a daily basis to counter all the disinformation presented as "fact" here.

[shain from kane]

49. If you're in Philly, I guess you heard about MOVE being bombed in 1985.

Wikipedia ---

"The plan called for a mixture of civilian and military explosives to be dropped on the fortification that had been built by MOVE on top of the house in order to destroy it. The satchel of explosives, alternately charaterized as a "bomb" and an "entry device," was to be dropped on MOVE's rooftop structure. The fortification was also described as either a "gun turret" or a purely defensive fortification. The structure was unoccupied at the time the bomb was dropped, although there were a number of people living in the house."

[PCIntern]

57. I lived through that...just a few blocks from me at Penn

where I was on the Faculty, teaching on a Monday AM.

It was the most moronic thing ever done in a city known for moronic activities. It set black/white relations back about 20 years, because the Mayor hwo ordered it was black and he dropped it on his own people's neighborhood, and then lied all over the place. what a nightmare...

Deserves its own thread someday...

[Benbow]

21. You are recruiting to Hezbollah, every minute, in every country n/t

[Joanne98]

24. We're trying to talk about bunker busters.........

[Joanne98]

12. Do you know what kind of bunker busters the US is sending them?

Did you watch the video?

[PCIntern]

14. They looked like 'big' bombs...

I don't know that they were 'bunker busters'...maybe they hit something flammable...like a rocket fuel dump. who knows?

[TankLV]

40. Bingo! That is exactly the cause of these explosions.

Proves Israel's point for going in there in the first place.

[cali]

37. Indeed I did watch the video

that's why I'm sure it won't happen. First of all, if Israeli used nukes in syria or lebanon, they'd be essentially nuking themselves. I don't believe Israel has the capability of using their air force to strike Iran, and I doubt that even if they did, they'd use them and again, depending on prevailing winds, risk poisoning their own country. Aside from that, use of such weapons would mean the destruction of Israel either economically or militarily or both.

Does the U.S. sell nukes? I don't know for sure, but I'd be surprised. Israel, after all, developed their nuclear technology themselves.

[Joanne98]

45. According to the video the winds blows east. What I don't understand

Is if they can't use them, why in the Hell are they developing them in the first place.

[Bluerthanblue]

90. bunker busters with tactical nukes.....

we have them, would we use them? would we use Israel to use them???

God I hope not-

This article talks about the contemplated use of them against Iran-
But if washington is actually thinking about using them against Iran, I wouldn't
be surprised if we might make someone else the 'scape goat' for thier use.

I'm learning not to believe anything from any 'government' anymore-





http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml%3Bjsessionid%3DC3HY5I431EHHRQFIQMGSFFWAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2006/04/09/wbush09.xml&sSheet=/portal/2006/04/09/ixportaltop.htmlHow

[theHandpuppet]

17. I agree with you about Lebanon but not so sure about Syria.

The Israelis are full aware of the long-lasting effects of nuclear armaments and I really don't think they would be stupid enough to set them off so near their own border. (I'm discounting the effects on the Lebanese here and just arguing from a practical standpoint, sans the moral and ethical issues.) Northern Israel is prime agricultural land and a good deal of the water upon which that industry depends also lies in South Lebanon. (See the water maps.)

Without those considerations I'm not so sure if Israel wouldn't use nukes against Syria, God help us.

[xultar]

5. They will nuke in the south. I'm sure of it. I would crack the fuck up i

up if they did. Boy did Israel, the US and the UK get played like a phuckin phiddle.

[C_U_L8R]

7. why would they?

a nuke wouldn't really accomplish much...
they've already bombed em back a hundred years.

Israeli nukes are for Iran... and possibly Syria

[DoYouEverWonder]

9. They don't need to, they got bunker busters

which are just as good, without the radiactive mess. Makes it much easier for the occupation forces to come in behind them. It only takes about 30 minutes for the bomb site to cool down.

[Joanne98]

30. They have nuclear tipped "bunker busters" too.

That's what I'm worried about....

[lonestarnot]

51. Area is too small, radioactive blow back would contaminate the Sea

of Galilee and the Gordan River, but what do I know.

[Solo_in_MD]

56. Have a URL from a credible source to back that up?

[Joanne98]

65. See post 18

[Solo_in_MD]

Which says nothing about a nuclear bunker bustet

it SPECULATES about the possible use of DU, but that is it. Is there anything credible out that shows that the GBU-28/BLU-113/122 even use DU let alone a nuclear warhead.

Yours fears in post #23 are noted, but are not facts. If "test" rounds were going t be used, they would be dropped from US planes. Also the US would not give the IDF a free look at our latest stuff.

[Bluerthanblue]

92. we work with Israel to devolop much of our 'stuff'-

Laser weaponry for one-
(and I can get you a link if you want)

see my post above for a link to bunker buster- tactical weapons-
and our contemplated use of them against Iran-

[Solo_in_MD]

97. It more limited than many think...they are competitiors to the US

Israel has a thriving arms trade, and will sell to damn near anyone. Our technical interchange with them is limited. Look at the issues assoicated with JSF in that area. Any cooperation is limited for business reasons as much as anything else.

There is no evidence that we are selling the B61-11 to Israel. That they were presented as an option for the Iran nuclear sites is appropraite, what would matter would be the reccomendation and decision.

[Joanne98]

11. Here's some info.......

They don't say what kind of bunker busters' Are they the nukes? I don't trust Rummy. He's been DYING to test these things on somebody.

http://www.newshounds.us/2006/07/22/u_s_expediting_delivery_of_bunker_busters_to_israel_israeli_tanks_cross_southern_border.php

According to the Times article

The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, American officials said Friday.
The decision to quickly ship the weapons to Israel was made with relatively little debate within the Bush administration, the officials said. Its disclosure threatens to anger Arab governments and others because of the appearance that the United States is actively aiding the Israeli bombing campaign in a way that could be compared to Iran’s efforts to arm and resupply Hezbollah.

The munitions that the United States is sending to Israel are part of a multimillion-dollar arms sale package approved last year that Israel is able to draw on as needed, the officials said. But Israel’s request for expedited delivery of the satellite and laser-guided bombs was described as unusual by some military officers, and as an indication that Israel still had a long list of targets in Lebanon to strike.

[PCIntern]

19. I'm sorry...I dont' see the word 'nuclear'

in the snippet...

[Joanne98]

23. I know. But I'm worried Cheney and Rumsfield are going to SNEAK!

them in. You know how bad they've been wanting to test these things. They are maniacs.

[DoYouEverWonder]

25. Rummie's being dying to test these things on someone?

Oh dear, get with the times. We have been using them on a regular basis in Iraq and Afghanistan already. The troops love them and they are becoming the weapon of choice. I think the explosions that we are seeing in Lebanon that are creating the big dust clouds are from bunker busters. They do a real good job of pulverizing concrete in buildings.

[Joanne98]

35. Do you have proof? Link?

[DoYouEverWonder]

47. Of course

MARINES QUIET ABOUT BRUTAL NEW WEAPON

War is hell. But it’s worse when the Marines bring out their new urban combat weapon, the SMAW-NE. Which may be why they’re not talking about it, much.

This is a version of the standard USMC Shoulder Mounted Assault Weapon but with a new warhead. Described as NE - "Novel Explosive"- it is a thermobaric mixture which ignites the air, producing a shockwave of unparalleled destructive power, especially against buildings.
A post-action report from Iraq describes the effect of the new weapon: "One unit disintegrated a large one-storey masonry type building with one round from 100 meters. They were extremely impressed." Elsewhere it is described by one Marine as "an awesome piece of ordnance."

It proved highly effective in the battle for Fallujah. This from the Marine Corps Gazette, July edition: "SMAW gunners became expert at determining which wall to shoot to cause the roof to collapse and crush the insurgents fortified inside interior rooms."
The NE round is supposed to be capable of going through a brick wall, but in practice gunners had to fire through a window or make a hole with an anti-tank rocket. Again, from the Marine Corps Gazette:

"Due to the lack of penetrating power of the NE round, we found that our assaultmen had to first fire a dual-purpose rocket in order to create a hole in the wall or building. This blast was immediately followed by an NE round that would incinerate the target or literally level the structure."


http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001944.html

[Joanne98]

18. DIFFERENT TYPES OF BUNKER BUSTERS.....

How Bunker Busters Work

by Marshall Brain

http://science.howstuffworks.com/bunker-buster.htm


Table of Contents
Introduction to How Bunker Busters Work Lots More Information


There are thousands of military facilities around the world that defy conventional attack. Caves in Afghanistan burrow into mountainsides, and immense concrete bunkers lie buried deep in the sand in Iraq. These hardened facilities house command centers, ammunition depots and research labs that are either of strategic importance or vital to waging war. Because they are underground, they are hard to find and extremely difficult to strike.
The U.S. military has developed several different weapons to attack these underground fortresses. Known as bunker busters, these bombs penetrate deep into the earth or right through a dozen feet of reinforced concrete before exploding. These bombs have made it possible to reach and destroy facilities that would have been impossible to attack otherwise.

Conventional Bunker Busters
During the 1991 Gulf war, allied forces knew of several underground military bunkers in Iraq that were so well reinforced and so deeply buried that they were out of reach of existing munitions. The U.S. Air Force started an intense research and development process to create a new bunker-busting bomb to reach and destroy these bunkers. In just a few weeks, a prototype was created. This new bomb had the following features:

Its casing consists of an approximately 16-foot (5-meter) section of artillery barrel that is 14.5 inches (37 cm) in diameter. Artillery barrels are made of extremely strong hardened steel so that they can withstand the repeated blasts of artillery shells when they are fired.

Inside this steel casing is nearly 650 pounds (295 kg) of tritonal explosive. Tritonal is a mixture of TNT (80 percent) and aluminum powder (20 percent). The aluminum improves the brisance of the TNT -- the speed at which the explosive develops its maximum pressure. The addition of aluminum makes tritonal about 18 percent more powerful than TNT alone.

Attached to the front of the barrel is a laser-guidance assembly. Either a spotter on the ground or in the bomber illuminates the target with a laser, and the bomb homes in on the illuminated spot. The guidance assembly steers the bomb with fins that are part of the assembly.

Attached to the end of the barrel are stationary fins that provide stability during flight.




The finished bomb, known as the GBU-28 or the BLU-113, is 19 feet (5.8 meters) long, 14.5 inches (36.8 cm) in diameter and weighs 4,400 pounds (1,996 kg).

From the description in the previous section, you can see that the concept behind bunker-busting bombs like the GBU-28 is nothing but basic physics. You have:

An extremely strong tube that is:
very narrow for its weight
extremely heavy
The bomb is dropped from an airplane so that this tube develops a great deal of speed, and therefore kinetic energy, as it falls.


When the bomb hits the earth, it is like a massive nail shot from a nail gun. In tests, the GBU-28 has penetrated 100 feet (30.5 meters) of earth or 20 feet (6 meters) of concrete.

In a typical mission, intelligence sources or aerial/satellite images reveal the location of the bunker. A GBU-28 is loaded into a B2 Stealth bomber, an F-111 or similar aircraft.

The bomber flies near the target, the target is illuminated and the bomb is dropped.

The GBU-28 has in the past been fitted with a delay fuze (FMU-143) so that it explodes after penetration rather than on impact. There has also been a good bit of research into smart fuzes that, using a microprocessor and an accelerometer, can actually detect what is happening during penetration and explode at precisely the right time. These fuses are known as hard target smart fuzes (HTSF). See GlobalSecurity.org: HTSF for details.

The GBU-27/GBU-24 (aka BLU-109) is nearly identical to the GBU-28, except that it weighs only 2,000 pounds (900 kg). It is less expensive to manufacture, and a bomber can carry more of them on each mission.

To make bunker busters that can go even deeper, designers have three choices:

They can make the weapon heavier. More weight gives the bomb more kinetic energy when it hits the target.

They can make the weapon smaller in diameter. The smaller cross-sectional area means that the bomb has to move less material (earth or concrete) "out of the way" as it penetrates.

They can make the bomb faster to increase its kinetic energy. The only practical way to do this is to add some sort of large rocket engine that fires right before impact.
One way to make a bunker buster heavier while maintaining a narrow cross-sectional area is to use a metal that is heavier than steel. Lead is heavier, but it is so soft that it is useless in a penetrator -- lead would deform or disintegrate when the bomb hits the target.
One material that is both extremely strong and extremely dense is depleted uranium. DU is the material of choice for penetrating weapons because of these properties. For example, the M829 is an armor-piercing "dart" fired from the cannon of an M1 tank. These 10-pound (4.5-kg) darts are 2 feet (61 cm) long, approximately 1 inch (2.5 cm) in diameter and leave the barrel of the tank's cannon traveling at over 1 mile (1.6 km) per second. The dart has so much kinetic energy and is so strong that it is able to pierce the strongest armor plating.

Depleted uranium is a by-product of the nuclear power industry. Natural uranium from a mine contains two isotopes: U-235 and U-238. The U-235 is what is needed to produce nuclear power (see How Nuclear Power Plants Work for details), so the uranium is refined to extract the U-235 and create "enriched uranium." The U-238 that is left over is known as "depleted uranium."

U-238 is a radioactive metal that produces alpha and beta particles. In its solid form, it is not particularly dangerous because its half-life is 4.5 billion years, meaning that the atomic decay is very slow. Depleted uranium is used, for example, in boats and airplanes as ballast. The three properties that make depleted uranium useful in penetrating weapons are its:

Density - Depleted uranium is 1.7 times heavier than lead, and 2.4 times heavier than steel.

Hardness - If you look at a Web site like WebElements.com, you can see that the Brinell hardness of U-238 is 2,400, which is just shy of tungsten at 2,570. Iron is 490. Depleted uranium alloyed with a small amount of titanium is even harder.

Incendiary properties - Depleted uranium burns. It is something like magnesium in this regard. If you heat uranium up in an oxygen environment (normal air), it will ignite and burn with an extremely intense flame. Once inside the target, burning uranium is another part of the bomb's destructive power.
These three properties make depleted uranium an obvious choice when creating advanced bunker-busting bombs. With depleted uranium, it is possible to create extremely heavy, strong and narrow bombs that have tremendous penetrating force.
The problem with depleted uranium is the fact that it is radioactive. The United States uses tons on depleted uranium on the battlefield. At the end of the conflict, this leaves tons of radioactive material in the environment. For example, Time magazine: Balkan Dust Storm reports:

NATO aircraft rained more than 30,000 DU shells on Kosovo during the 11-week air campaign… About 10 tons of the debris were scattered across Kosovo.
Perhaps 300 tons of DU weapons were used in the first Gulf war. When it burns, DU forms a uranium-oxide smoke that is easily inhaled and that settles on the ground miles from the point of use. Once inhaled or ingested, depleted-uranium smoke can do a great deal of damage to the human body because of its radioactivity. See How Nuclear Radiation Works for details.
Tactical Nuclear Weapons
The Pentagon has developed tactical nuclear weapons to reach the most heavily fortified and deeply buried bunkers. The idea is to marry a small nuclear bomb with a penetrating bomb casing to create a weapon that can penetrate deep into the ground and then explode with nuclear force. The B61-11, available since 1997, is the current state of the art in the area of nuclear bunker busters.

From a practical standpoint, the advantage of a small nuclear bomb is that it can pack so much explosive force into such a small space. (See How Nuclear Bombs Work for details.) The B61-11 can carry a nuclear charge with anywhere between a 1-kiloton (1,000 tons of TNT) and a 300-kiloton yield. For comparison, the bomb used on Hiroshima had a yield of approximately 15 kilotons. The shock wave from such an intense underground explosion would cause damage deep in the earth and would presumably destroy even the most well-fortified bunker.

From an environmental and diplomatic standpoint, however, the use of the B61-11 raises a number of issues. There is no way for any known penetrating bomb to bury itself deeply enough to contain a nuclear blast. This means that the B61-11 would leave an immense crater and eject a huge amount of radioactive fallout into the air. Diplomatically, the B61-11 is problematic because it violates the international desire to eliminate the use of nuclear weapons. See FAS.org: Low-Yield Earth-Penetrating Nuclear Weapons for details.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/bunker-buster.htm

[Joanne98]

27. RUMSFELD IS A MANIAC!

How do we know they don't already have them?

Published on Wednesday, February 2, 2005 by the Agence France Presse
Rumsfeld Asks for Restoration of Nuclear 'Bunker Buster' Program
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0202-10.htm

WASHINGTON - US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has asked for the restoration of a research program designed to create a new type of nuclear weapons capable of destroying hardened underground targets, a Pentagon official said.

The request came in a letter Rumsfeld sent to then-Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham on January 10, in which he insisted that funds for studying the feasibility of the Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator be restored.


A nuclear explosion over Mururoa atoll. US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has asked for restoration of a supersecret research program designed to create a new class of nuclear weapons capable of destroying hardened underground targets. (AFP photo)

"The Defense Department does support completion of the penetrator study," Major Paul Swiergosz, a department spokesman, told AFP. "We can't necessarily match Cold War weapons to the new threats. We have to adapt capabilities that we have to meet the threats."

A spokesman for the Department of Energy that runs US nuclear weapons research declined to say what the response would be. Abraham was replaced by Samuel Bodman on January 11.

But military experts said they were expecting a new attempt by the administration of President George W. Bush to revive the "bunker buster" nuclear weapons program that was shelved by Congress late last year under growing international and domestic criticism.

[PCIntern]

39. Joanne, with all due respect...

I like your posts in general...I read you often and nod my head approvingly.

But..let me just say this: not every situation which presents itself and is acted upon by this Administration is antithetical to world peace/existence. the fact of the matter is that the world has spiralled out of control during the past 5 years of the Bush Administration. that being said, this is emblematic of that loss of control. There is little question that things are AFU all over, but you know what? The world goes on with or without this crowd. This is an area which has been simmering for, say 5000 years. This is not new. The Arabs fought and killed each other for years in this region. This has nothing to do with 1967 borders, or Palestinians, or any other Pablum which Americans are fed. IT has to do with stragic positioning for oil, for defense information, for technology research, for proximity to Russia/Soviet Union (old days), it has to do with protocols established after WWII, with foreign aid, with the World Bank...etc.

I could go on and on. This is like the movie Syriana: no one, but no one really udnerstands what is going on...it's just way too complex. No single player is in control, belive me.

[Joanne98]

42. This is like the movie Syriana: I haven't seen it.

I do believe there are "different factions" fighting "proxy wars" but it hard to get any real info on that unless you read "The Bilderburger" crowds stuff. I know what you mean though. But I really really think Cheney/Rumsfeld are so evil they would talk somebody else into testing these weapons.

[PCIntern]

46. Great film...but the point is

that when you watch it, you realize that none of the folks involved form the top to the bottom really udnerstand the 'plot'...there is none which you would get because this is just so intricate. There are trillions of dollars, thousands of lives of 'important' people (don't take that wrong, I know you know what I mean), and so much intrigue that it makes "Chinatown' look obvious.

I don't personally believe that Israel would knowingly utilize a nuclear weapon. the US is the only country which has ever done that.

[Joanne98]

59. That is the scariest thing I've heard all day.....

Nobody knows the plot. I know there are trillions of dollars. I have family in the FOREX. I'll be watching the markets tommorrow.

[DoYouEverWonder]

52. The only threat we need protection from

is Rumsfeld and his crew.

[Solo_in_MD]

53. The bunker busters are conventional weapons we all ready agreed

to sell them last year.

[DoYouEverWonder]

55. Conventional my ass

They are mini nukes without the nasty radioactive mess.

They are being used on civilian populations by the Occupying Powers. To use these weapons in this manner is clearly a War Crime.

[PCIntern]

58. OK...

Gee, if the Egyptians, (excuse me, the United Arab Republicans), Jordanians, Syrians, and everyone else hadn't massed the troops on the Israelis' border in 1967, maybe they wouldn't be occupying the high ground in the Golan Heights, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula (with all the oil), the...ooops, did they give some of thsoe back in return for a Peace Treaty? I'd almost forgotten! Shame on me!

Sorry...

[DoYouEverWonder]

67. Keep towing the party line

because your support for War in the ME is exactly what BushCo wants.

[Solo_in_MD]

62. Are you claiming that the US is export and selling nuclear weapons?

Are you claiming that BLU-113 http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/gbu-28.htm is a nuclear weapon?

Are you claiming that there is a different bunker buster being sent to the IAF that has a nuclear device as it explosive?

Since you are an intern, here is a free clue: Depeleted Uranium does not constitute a nuclear weapon...

[PCIntern]

68. To whom are you replying...

I never said any such thing...

Awaiting an explanation. i'm not in the business of discussing armaments' details...take a look at which poster is which, my friend

[DoYouEverWonder]

69. Who are you directing your response to?

I made no claim about bunker busters being nuclear weapons, they are not. But in some ways they are actually worse and either way dropping these things on civilian populations is unacceptable in any way shape and form. I don't give a fuck what your excuse is.

[PCIntern]

71. Yeah...

sometimes people get carried away. I think this thread has been remarkably polite given te nature of what's being discussed.

[Solo_in_MD]

72. My mistake in the intern referecnce

However there is no evidence that the GBU-28/BLU-113/122 are nuclear weapons

[Recursion]

79. What?

They are mini nukes without the nasty radioactive mess.

Why do you insist on calling them nukes when they don't involve a nuclear reaction?

[DoYouEverWonder]

96. Because the destruction they cause is about the same

I don't care how many people want to argue that thermobaric weapons are okay, they are not. A big enough thermobaric, just like a big enough nuke can cause massive destruction and loss of life. As far as I can see the only difference is that one leaves behind a more long term contaminant and the other doesn't. Unless of course, if DU is used to harden the warhead, then there is that issue also.

Have you read about what happens to any human being that happens to be in a building that gets hit with one of these? It's a pretty gruesome death.

[Joanne98]

60. Do you know what kind they are? Here's a list.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&forum=364&topic_id=1709172&mesg_id=1709308

[Solo_in_MD]

64. That is not a list of what is being sold.

From other M$M sources, they are BLU-113/122s http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/gbu-28.htm

Depeleted urainium does not a nuclear weapon make and there is no evidence that the US selling deep penertarors with DU.

Israel has also made its own deep penetrators, though they are in the BLU-109 class and are LGB vice GPS

[Joanne98]

76. Thanx. I feel a lot better. But I still don't trust Rumsfeld.

Or Cheney so I'm keeping my eye on them. Come to think of it. They're being very quiet. I wonder what they're doing right now.

[treestar]

54. But of course.

They have the "right to defend themselves."

:sarcasm:

What would you have them do?

:sarcasm:

If they don't "defend themselves" by laying waste to all the Arab countries, those Arab countries will immediately "drive them into the sea!"

The only reason they haven't already done it some time in the last 60 years is our problem to figure out.

:sarcasm:

They are entitled to have the US pay for it, too.

[PCIntern]

61. Your sarcasm is taken

Just one question: have the Israelis ever actuall laid waste to an entire country, used nuclear weapons, practiced wholesale genocide upon a population, not exchanged many prisoners for the remains of their soldiers, and most importantly HAS ANY ISRAELI LEADER EVER SAID THAT THEY WILL NOT STOP UNTIL THE BLOOD OF EVERY ARAB IS RUNNING THROUGH THE STREETS OF THE CAPITAL CITY? I can think of a number of Arab leaders and clergy who've said that about the JEws of Israel.

But don't worry...after the Jews, they'll be taking on the Christians. Sort of like the way the Rwers, after they destroy a woman's right to an abortion, will then outlaw contraception and then premarital sex, and then recreational sex.

[Joanne98]

66. I have to go to the store. But before I go. I'd like to apologize....

If the title of this thread is to inflammatory. I tried to change it but I was to late. I'm worried about Cheney and Rumfeld more than Israel. I've watched them push for these weapons for years. But the title doesn't reflect that. I'm sorry if I affended anyone.
Joanne

[PCIntern]

70. Just got back from the store...

myself...

not inflammatory - this stuff needs to be discussed at length.

[Joanne98]

74. Thanx

[sweetheart]

81. They'll nuke the islamic districts of jerusalem

Those israeli's are so smart, they've got a neutron bomb for
every occasion.

[PCIntern]

83. this is getting out of hand

I do believe that this hypothetical nonsense is getting out of control. Unless the poster is joking, does anyone really think that the Israelis would nuke their own city strategically??? Remember, that when the city was under Arab control, only Arabs could visit the holy sites. Ooops, did we forget that little fact?

No Jews alowed at the Western Wall. I suppose that's because the Temple of King David originally belonged to the Saudis?

Sheesh...

[sweetheart]

85. pressing the irony

:-) When people are *that* stupid, there is no end to the entertainment.

Who knows, maybe they'll bomb themselves. Who knows, maybe the US will
launch its nuclear arsenal at all its own nuclear installations, and
the entire chain of command of all republican doners, nuked, just to save
the constitution, purity of essence indeed.

[PCIntern]

89. Funny...

:rofl:

[lonestarnot]

91. Well even further..

Maybe chimpie will try to practice roping and catch one up his ass!

[PCIntern]

94. Another story for another day...

strange how things change almost overnight...

[Marie26]

82. No. Israel isn't crazy. nt

[Crabby Appleton]

88. The bunker busters sold to Israel

are GBU-28 (laser-guided delivery system) with a BLU-113 warhead with 630 lbs of conventional (Tritonal) explosive.

[Solo_in_MD]

98. Don't confuse them with facts

it ruins the hyperbole

[Joanne98]

93. Remember this flash game?

This was a big hit a couple of years ago.

http://www.idleworm.com/nws/2002/11/iraq2.shtml

[fujiyama]

99. No

it's unecessary and kind of stupid.

Israel's conventional force is more than enough to do whatever it wants to Lebanon.

Plus, keep in mind that in such a small area, launching nukes would produce fallout which I'm sure Israel is aware of.