Hezbollah Sucks

[Truthiness Inspector]

They are a terrorist group who have damaged both Israel and Lebanon. I'm thinking about sending in a donation so I can post an actual poll, but this will have to do for now.

Can this thread be reserved for condemning Hezbollah? I really hope so, because that should be something that all of us can agree on. This is not a thread to say Israel or Lebanon as nations are right or wrong...this is all about HEZBOLLAH.

This thread is intended to unite, as Israel and Lebanon should, and CAN facing this mutual enemy.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Erika]

2. The European Union will not call Hezbollah a terrorist group

They also make up 23% of the duly elected democratic parliament of Lebanon. I think you've being listening to the Israelis a touch much.

[Dead_Parrot]

5. Hey...

...Just because you've been elected doesn't mean you can't be a terrorist. Look at the bush admin...
:evilgrin:

[madeline_con]

7. DUH-bya was NOT elected. n/t

[Erika]

10. Point made.

But the European Union won't call them a terrorist group or will they the Bush administration. It's all relative.

[Truthiness Inspector]

20. Most of the world calls Hezbollah a terrorist group

The list of those who do NOT is very short indeed. Which nations would those be, I already know, but humor me.

[Laotra]

30. The other way around

US and few others are not "most of the world", US and few others are just pompous assholes.

[Truthiness Inspector]

40. Ok

Provide a list of those who feel like you do.

I can assure you even Jordan, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates, and Saudi Arabia disagree with your position, and agree with the world opinion on Hezbollah.

I have to ask: Are you aware I am talking about Hezbollah, not Lebanon? (I'm not trying to be an ass, I just really am wondering.)

[Laotra]

43. Let's be specific and factual

Governements of Jordan, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates, and Saudi Arabia etc. do not call Hezbollah a "terrorist group" and neither does EU. Only US, Israel and few members of EU (e.g. UK, Netherlands) and perhaps some others do.

"World opinion" is not the simulation bubble of the Western Mass Media, no matter how often they claim it to be. Rich white people are minority.

[wordpix2]

59. Fact: Hezbollah is a goose-stepping & Nazi "Heil Hitler" saluting org

The soldiers do this en masse, according to footage I saw on MSNBC recently. They are dressed in black uniforms very similar to Hitler's brown shirt uniforms of the past. Except the soldiers are swathed in hoods over their faces, similar to the KKK.

If Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization, they're a Hitler-inspired organization. Same thing in my book.

Let's get a CEASE FIRE and GIVE PEACE A CHANCE!

[snappyturtle]

66. I agree with the "Cease fire" part and "Give...

Peace a Chance" part. You know more about Hezbollah than I do. Can you tell me how they came to be?

[Scurrilous]

74. Google Hezbollah...

...and click on images:



Hezbollah.




Hezbollah again.




More Hezbollah.


Where's the goose-stepping and Nazi gear?

[deaniac21]

80. Here

[Scurrilous]

83. Here again:

Though primarily associated with the Nazis, this type of salute dates back to ancient Rome.

[deaniac21]

90. The name Adolph goes way back too but it has fallen into disuse.

[Scurrilous]

94. The salute has fallen out of favor also..

...with only a few groups (not all mid-eastern) still using it.

[deaniac21]

115. Like Hezbollah...

[Scurrilous]

117. And Republicans...

[ShortnFiery]

118. Other than the bomb belt picture, it could be an Arab version

of a USA RANGER SCHOOL graduation. Those men are seriously hard corps and pride themselves as "the best" killing machines ... they are Special Forces' on Steroids. Hoooo Waaaah!

*On Edit: If you wish to understand this better read General Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket." In essence, the ruling class are pitting their peons against one another for power and entertainment. The Cure = Don't volunteer your children to serve as cannon fodder (to join the military).

The Military is Great and there's excellent human beings that serve. However, most militaries are being MISUSED. Good soldiers love to prepare for war but they pray that they won't have to use those skills "real time."

Don't serve (or let your children) in the Military NOW! Then The Neo-cons will not have enough soldiers for their "Holy Wars" - they may just have to resort to DIPLOMACY. The Bush Administration hasn't a clue about effective negotiations and true diplomacy. :(

[rockymountaindem]

6. So, once you get elected you can't be a terrorist anymore?

[minkyboodle]

23. Apparently Not

At least in the case of a former Israeli PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

BTW for the record Hezbollah does indeed suck!

[rockymountaindem]

111. Your own article refutes the idea that the KD bombing was a terrorist act

It was the British military HQ.

[Warren DeMontague]

26. Yeah, I mean they only kidnapped those soldiers so they could gain

the release of civic-minded folks like this guy:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1669305

[Dead_Parrot]

3. You'd like to think so...

I happen to agree, but I'm going to join cboy
:popcorn:

[Behind the Aegis]

4. Best wishes, but you will find...

...that not everyone is all that quick to condemn Hizb'allah.

[Wonk]

8. The militant wing of Hezbollah that likes to escalate tensions with Israel

sucks.



For some reason I get the feeling the real point of this thread is trolling for someone to defend it?

[madeline_con]

11. Yep, sounds that way.

:popcorn:

[Igel]

58. They all report to Nasrallah.

All of them: the militant wing, the preaching wing, the social service wing, the business enterprises wing.

How does Nasrallah want to be seen? What's Nasrallah's role in the current conflict?

And have any of the peaceful, pacifist wings taken one step to distance themselves from Nasrallah.

"Militant wing", indeed.

[ShortnFiery]

121. Whenever I hear generalizations, I think of the Commie Scare!

Boo! They are ALL evil those Commie Bastards! Better dead than Red, aye? :sarcasm:

No, I don't buy into such black and white thinking. Just because you claim they report to one entity, does not negate that there are positive aspects of this organization.

[madeline_con]

9. For $5, you coulda had a poll. n/t

[cboy4]

16. . . .

:spray:

[Truthiness Inspector]

21. What is your opinion of Hezbollah?

It seems like all you have done on this thread is attempt to dilute and divert it.

Not that it's any of your biz but my credit card was charged with unauthorized charges, so my bank cancelled it, and I won't have a new card until next week.

But again, what is your opinion of Hezbollah--the point of this thread? I am trying, in vain obviously, to find something all here can agree on.

[cboy4]

22. Sorry.....no valid credit card.....no answer

Although, you should really be asking Rex.

He speaks for me.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Rex]

24. Evidently not.

I will just stick with :popcorn: and be good.

[Truthiness Inspector]

25. Nice try

You have offered exactly nothing to this discussion, except baiting. If your post disappears like the subthread above that got removed, it is not my doing. The mods can tell who clicked on alert and who didn't, I would imagine.

I am trying to engage in meaningful discussion here.

Do you have anything on-topic to offer?

[The Magistrate]

27. This Is Not The Lounge, Gentlemen

We have enough work over this as it is....

[Rex]

28. Sorry

I just wish things like this were in the IP forum.

[cboy4]

29. Sorry

Me 2

[Sugarcoated]

113. Problem solved

I stated a poll for ya.

[babylonsister]

12. Hezbollah does suck; when they saw what was happening to their

compatriots, why didn't/haven't they taken a different road? Why aren't they now? And who is trying to FIX it?

[tuvor]

Families of dead Canadians don't agree with your position.

MONTREAL - Ali Al-Akhras planned his family vacation meticulously, picturing a chance for his Canadian-born children to meet their extended family in Lebanon. But instead of playing with her cousins last week, a terrified, eight-year-old Saja Al-Akhras was cowering inside as she spoke by telephone to an aunt back home.

"She was trembling from hearing the sound of the bombs all over the village," Maysoun Al-Akhras, the girl's aunt, recounted yesterday. "She did not know what to do. She was unable to eat, unable to drink, unable to move."

On Sunday, Israeli shelling hit the ancestral home in Aitaroun where the family had taken refuge, instantly killing Saja, her three siblings and their mother, Amira Al-Akhras. Ali Al-Akhras, a 35-year-old pharmacist, was seriously wounded and transferred to a hospital in Beirut where he died last night, according to a family member. His mother and uncle were also killed and his father was injured in the bombing. All are Canadian citizens.

(snip)

Ms. Akhras accused the Canadian media and Stephen Harper, the Prime Minister, of twisting the truth about the conflict and the role of Hezbollah, which Canada has listed as a terrorist organization. "Hezbollah is our protector," she said. "I ask Mr. Harper to be on our side and to say the truth about Israel -- to say that Israel entered into my house, that Hezbollah was protecting my house. That is the truth." The family said they had received no call offering condolences from federal officials prior to the noon news conference. Jean Charest, the Quebec Premier, did call, they said.

Hassan El-Akhras, a family member whose father was killed in the bombing, said Hezbollah is seen as a protector to people in southern Lebanon because the organization helped force the withdrawal of Israeli forces in 2000.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=703bb9d6-ead2-4079-a061-5d41584d1992&k=1111

I'm not sure there's anything that can be said about this conflict that all good people can agree upon.

[Truthiness Inspector]

18. Interesting

but one anecdotal story does not refute Hezbollah's position as a terrorist organization that has damaged both Israel and Lebanon (amongst others).

[PaDem]

50. with all due respect.............

Hezbollah may well deserve the "terrorist group" label, but they have done more the the Lebanese people than any government ever has.

[KOBUK]

97. And now Lebanon pays the price ! *

*

[iverglas]

72. indeed ... that you avoided the point so adeptly

Have another go:

Ms. Akhras accused the Canadian media and Stephen Harper, the Prime Minister, of twisting the truth about the conflict and the role of Hezbollah, which Canada has listed as a terrorist organization. "Hezbollah is our protector," she said. "I ask Mr. Harper to be on our side and to say the truth about Israel -- to say that Israel entered into my house, that Hezbollah was protecting my house. That is the truth."

The point is not what happened to these people -- it is that there are many, many people, this woman being one of them, who do not believe that "Hezbollah sucks" -- and who have GOOD REASON for their belief.

I don't think that more than a tiny fraction of people who engage in discussions like this have the first tiny clue about what Hezbollah is, where it came from, why it exists, what it does. I also doubt that many have heard of, oh, Sabra and Shatila, and the Lebanese Phalange. And as usual, I question why people who know nothing about something choose to have opinions about it anyhow.

But gosh, maybe you're not one of the ignoramuses. Maybe you know all about these things, and still condemn Hezbollah. Whatever.

Anybody else could try googling things like sabra shatila phalange hezbollah. I'd recommend skipping the "Jewish Virtual Library" link that pops up at the top of the list and going for something that contains actual facts.

One interesting one:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1604576,00.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

The Israeli military had completely surrounded and sealed off the camps and set up observation posts on the roofs of nearby tall buildings on September 15. The next day Israel announced that it controlled all key points in Beirut. The Israeli military met throughout the day with top Phalangist leaders to arrange the details of the operation. For the next two nights, from nightfall until late into the night the Israeli military fired illuminating flares above the camps.

On the evening of September 16, 1982, the Phalangist militia, under the command of Elie Hobeika, entered the camps. For the next 36 to 48 hours, the Phalangists massacred the inhabitants of the refugee camps, while the Israeli military guarded the exits and continued to provide flares by night.

A unit of 150 Phalangists (including some SLA fighters, according to Saad Haddad as quoted by Robert Fisk, and also other sources) was assembled at 4:00 p.m. These militiamen armed with guns, knives and hatchets entered the camps at 6:00 p.m. A Phalangist officer reported 300 killings, including civilians, to the Israeli command post at 8:00 p.m., and further reports of these killings followed through the night. Some of these reports were forwarded to the Israeli government in Jerusalem and were seen by a number of Israel's senior officials.

At one point, a militiaman's radioed question to his commander Hobeika about what to do with the women and children in the refugee camp was overheard by an Israeli officer, who heard Hobeika reply that "This is the last time you're going to ask me a question like that; you know exactly what to do". Phalangist troops could be heard laughing in the background. The Israeli officer reported this to his superior General Amos Yaron, who warned Hobeika against hurting civilians but took no further action. Lt. Avi Grabowsky was cited by the Kahan Commission as having seen (on that Friday) the murder of five women and children, and gave a hearsay report of a battalion commander saying of this, "We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere." Israeli soldiers surrounding the camps turned back Palestinians fleeing the camps, as filmed by a Visnews cameraman.

Now let's see a show of hands from everyone who would say that an organization working to protect him/herself and his/her family and his/her community from things like that sucked.

The victims were Palestinian -- but the killing grounds were in Lebanon. And Hezbollah's stated purpose has always been to defend Lebanon ... oh, and of course to provide social services to people who have no other access to them.

"Hezbollah sucks" is likely to be about as productive in talking to people like them as "great Satan" is in talking to USAmericans.

Good luck with it.

[Igel]

60. Of course the family doesn't.

The village that's described is almost certainly in the south, and has a Hezbollah presence. The family is almost certainly Shi'ite. And their relatives in Lebanon almost certainly Hezbollah supporters, and cheered when the Israeli soldiers were kidnapped.

Hezbollah, like other supremacist and totalitarian groups, has one thing going for it: they serve as nannies. They provide food, schools, jobs, and preaching; the preaching is how wonderful and brave and far-seeing those that support them are, how everybody else wants to take away what they've so bravely built (under tutelage, and with guidance) and how evil everybody else is. Moreover, they belong to the same tribe, and the urge for tribal honor and unity is strong. Until things go seriously wrong, so wrong that to protect themselves they'll turn against Hezbollah, they won't; and if Hezbollah's managed to so be seen as part of the people's heart and core, that moment will never come.

Hezbollah as protector is the desired meme, what's taught--even by the Qur'an, since "Hezbollah" as a phrase is Qur'anic. Rather like having a US political party called "Body of Christ"--every church in the country would be supporting it by simply reading the New Testament. Quite the manipulators, Hezbollah.

[iverglas]

73. damn -- brown, foreign people are really stupid, aren't they?

[robinlynne]

77. In Brazil, in the poorest slums, the cocaine drug lords "protect" the

people and provide food and education for the poor. These are the very same people who shoot machine guns in the streets of Rio, killing innocent people all the time.
In other words, when you have poverty and need, any group of people who comes in with a little bit of money and help can easily buy a fan club; that does not make them good people.

[akushuki]

13. Hezbollah should return the soldiers and Disband,

[MADem]

14. Robin Higgins, and many others, agree.

They hanged her husband, an unarmed UN Peacekeeper. http://ojc.org/higgins/bio/index.html

They killed 241 US Marines at the Beirut barracks. http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/30/iran.barracks.bombing/

They were responsible for the death of SW2 Robert Stetham aboard PAN AM FLIGHT 847 which they hijacked. They TORTURED the kid before they tossed his body on the tarmac at Beirut airport.
http://www.timescommunity.com/site/tab1.cfm?newsid=15825895&BRD=2553&PAG=461&dept_id=506035&rfi=6

They're thugs, whose job it is to facilitate Iran's imperialist ambitions in the Middle East.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. She is a very nice woman.

I knew them both when I was a child. My father worked with her husband and had to deliver the news. Very sad day.

[MADem]

17. I don't know how she managed to pull it together so well and go on

The images of Rich hanged on television still haunt me to this day, to say nothing of the film of that young Petty Officer being dumped on the tarmac. And the aftermath of the barracks explosion...that was the 911 footage of that decade.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. well...that was the early days of 24 hour news..

CNN had just started, I think. That is how we knew where my father was, we'd see him on CNN. I am trying to remember, but I think they had a son and daughter, both were older than me, but it has been so long. I know she came to our house, we were not allowed downstairs because our parents were afraid we might say something wrong. :)

[Laotra]

31. This thread

is not intended to unite but to provoke. Just like a thread called "Israel sucks" would be a provocation.

[Rex]

32. Thanks for saying it.

nt

[Truthiness Inspector]

33. Not at all

Hezbollah is a terrorist group within Lebanon. Lebanon doesn't want them either.

The only way your post would make sense is if you were willing to argue that Hezbollah IS Lebanon.

[cboy4]

34. Are you a spokesman for Lebanon?.....you know, the part how you say

"Lebanon doesn't want them either."

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Finally, something useful!

Thanks!

[Truthiness Inspector]

36. Alright

Are you prepared to argue that Lebanon WANTS an acknowledged terrorist group in their country? Think before you answer.

[cboy4]

37. Let me ask my question again, because I realize it's late and you maybe

you don't realize you didn't answer my question first.

How do you know that Lebanon does not want Hezbollah?

You don't have to be the spokesperson of Lebanon to know the answer to that.

[Truthiness Inspector]

38. You aren't thinking this through

Pick A or B:

A) Most Lebanese support Hezbollah, therefore they too are terrorists and/or sympathizers and are therefore legit targets.

B) They don't support Hezbollah, and that means most Lebanese are tired of this shit.

Which do you think it is? Pick A or B.

My pick is "B." If you want to continue this, we can do so.

[cboy4]

39. If you don't know whether Lebanon wants Hizbollah, then say:

"I'm not sure whether Lebanon wants Hizbollah."

And then I will give you my response.

But for now, you have not provided any information which backs your claim that Lebanon doesn't want Hizbollah.

You said it, not me.

So you tell me, how do you know Lebanon DOES NOT WANT Hizbollah?

I'm all ears.

[readmoreoften]

96. Most of Lebanon does not want Hezbollah.

Lebanon is an extremely factionalized country. Much like if you had a Jewish region of the US, a Catholic region, an Humanist Region, and Extreme Fundie region. On top of that, add a parliamentary style government without much central authority. Sort of like what America would be like if the States Rights extremists got their way-- except even less centralized power and just coming out of a civil war with one another.

These factions barely hold it together as is. They barely get along. A very large portion of Lebanon despises Hezbollah for its own insular reasons. All of Hezbollah's supporters are Shia (40%) of the country, and even some Shia are against Hezbollah. The Christians, Sunnis, and Druze (the other 60% of the nation) do not support Hezbollah.

[iverglas]

98. so what you're saying ...

Most of Lebanon does not want Hezbollah.

is that most of Lebanon does not want ANYTHING.

Most of Lebanon probably doesn't want a ham sandwich, either.

What a meaningful statement. Not.

All of Hezbollah's supporters are Shia (40%) of the country, and even some Shia are against Hezbollah. The Christians, Sunnis, and Druze (the other 60% of the nation) do not support Hezbollah.

Gee. And the Shia, Sunni and Druze didn't support the Christian / Phalangist governments of the past. With, in some humble opinions, much better grounds.

Do you really imagine that where a group consists of a collection of minorities, you just get to pick and choose groups and lump them together and say that they oppose some other group, and claim to have said something meaningful??

The Canadian Parliament consists of a collection of minorities -- no single party has either a majority of the popular vote or a majority of the seats in the House of Commons. Most of Canada does not want the Conservatives. And yet, oddly, the Liberals don't just get to take over the government ...

[Laotra]

41. "terrorists and/or sympathizers"

Are "legit targets" only in the wet dreams of Bushistas and other fear- and warmongers, if we surrender to the logic of blame games we have allready lost. There are no legit targets except cease fire and peace.

[MyNameGoesHere]

78. Well * says he's

for peace and democracy. So we should believe it? I think the official government line would be "We condemn acts of terror blah blah blah" but inside they are thrilled to have hezbollah there. Think about it. They do not pursue attacking them. They are not trying to get at their assets. They allow arms to be smuggled into the country. So you tell me. I think they are more than welcome in Lebanon and Syria and Iran. However the "Official" line is " We condemn blah blah blah....."

[Laotra]

42. Sure it is

"inseparable part of Lebanese social fabric", as the Lebanese PM (IIRC) said.

Whether you agree or disagree with Lebanese people, the strong sentiment in Lebanon is that in time of war it is unpatriotic to criticize Hezbollah.

[iverglas]

76. "Lebanon doesn't want them either."

I suppose so ... if "Lebanon" = Maronites / Phalangists ...

Large segments of the US population really don't want the Democratic Party, I gather.

To talk about what "Lebanon" wants is to talk nonsense.

http://www.cedarland.org/teams.html
http://www.cedarland.org/index.html
The site appears to have a distinctly Maronite orientation, but some of the info seems useful. To those who don't know much of anything.

[plcdude]

110. do some reading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

[Chi-Town Exile]

99. We have plenty of those! LOL

[brmdp3123]

44. I agree wholeheartedly.

However, as for:

"Can this thread be reserved for condemning Hezbollah?

I doubt it. There seems to be a whole lot of anti-Israel sentiment on DU these days.

[cboy4]

45. Before one starts a thread condemning something, one should have all

of her/his facts together instead of making broad statements.

It's these kinds of threads which continue to fuel the fire in GD

[brmdp3123]

47. What did I condemn? I simply answered the guy's question.

What facts did I not have together?

[cboy4]

48. No, you're fine. I was referring to the original poster who tried

to convince myself and others via this thread that Lebanon wishes to disassociate itself from Hezbollah.

I'm still waiting for an answer as to how she knows Lebanon wants no part of Hezbollah.

Those are the facts I speak of.

[Dorian Gray]

69. Personally, I don't think that there is a consensus.

Lebanon is not, currently, one united country moving in lock-step. There are many who do want to disassociate themselves with Hezbollah, but there are still others who support the actions of Hezbollah.

Personally, I think that they are foolish. I would have liked to see a strong Lebonese Democracy go down to the south and destroy Hezbollah themselves rather than see Israel do it. And there is a lot of distrust in many of the Arab/Muslim nations for Hamas and Hezbollah.

I marginally support Israel in this matter, but even saying that, I don't support their balls to the wall response to the kidnappings of their military personnel. It's a very trying week in the Middle East, and having a friend who is currently stuck in Lebanon. I love the Lebanese people, and I am so sorrowful about what is happening to their country. Many of them are caught between a rock (Israel) and a hard place (Hezbollah), and I woudln't blame any of them for hating both parties right now.

[rman]

46. Which isn't to say Israel does not suck

Is it ok if i condemn both in the same thread?

[Epiphany4z]

49. Hezbollah Sucks

so does Israel. so do we. all this death and destruction sucks....war for peace....screw for virginity!!!

this kind of chit just goes round and round and round....our media is so screwed up you can't believe anything they say. Both sides are messed up there are other ways to approach this chit ..but they are way less profitable to everyone..or at least the people who count these days.

[SammyWinstonJack]

52. "An eye for an eye leaves the whole World blind"

this kind of chit just goes round and round and round... And apparently no one EVER learns.

[Wcross]

51. Hezbollah killed 220 Marines, 18 navy corpsman.

They killed three guys I knew personally. The way I look at it, the more that die the better the world will be. Do you think I could EVER have sympathy for them? Never.

[The Stranger]

54. Has anyone really researched that?

Although U.S. officials vowed no change in U.S. policy as a result of the attack, the next strike proved harder to shrug off. Less than a month later, on April 18, 1983, a suicide bomber drove a truck loaded with high explosives into the U.S. embassy in Beirut. The blast killed 60 people, including 17 Americans. Hours later, an organization called Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

The United States now was confronted with a rather shadowy enemy. From the start, it seemed to U.S. intelligence analysts that Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah were in some way connected. Both organizations pledged fervent allegiance to Iran, both were based in the Baalbeck region of the Bekaa valley and both were known to have received weaponry from Syria. In addition, the groups shared the same leaders, including a man named Sheikh Hussein Mussawi.

U.S. intelligence sources began suggesting that Islamic Jihad was simply a cover used by Hezbollah for carrying out its terrorist attacks. This charge was repeatedly denied by Hezbollah's spiritual leader, Sheikh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, who insisted that Hezbollah stood for moderation and restraint.

The arrival in Lebanon of more American soldiers was met with swift and devastating force. On October 23, 1983, a truck bomb destroyed the U.S. Marine barracks at the Beirut airport, killing 241 American soldiers. Until September 11, 2001, this was considered the greatest loss in U.S. history of American lives in a terrorist attack. Islamic Jihad once again claimed responsibility.

PBS FRONTLINE

The responsibility for the bombing is uncertain. Most (notably the U.S. government) believe the Hezbollah militant group, backed by Iran and Syria, was responsible for the bombings, as well as the bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut in April of that year. Hezbollah, Iran and Syria, all staunch opponents of a Western presence in Lebanon, denied any involvement. Several Shia militant groups claimed responsibility for the attacks, and one, the Free Islamic Revolutionary Movement, identified the two suicide bombers as Abu Mazen, 26, and Abu Sijaan, 24.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing

[Wcross]

55. This is proof enough for me.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/30/iran.barracks.bombing/

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Iran is responsible for the 1983 suicide bombing of a U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, that killed 241 American servicemen, a U.S. District Court judge ruled Friday.
U.S. District Judge Royce C. Lamberth said the suicide truck bombing was carried out by the group Hezbollah with the approval and funding of Iran's senior government officials.

As far as I'm concerned Israel should kill every last one of them. GO IDF!!!

[The Stranger]

57. Was that case you cited to even opposed? Or was only one side represented?

Was there a defendant present, or were the findings made only with one party, one side, before the court?

Noting that Iran was served with the lawsuits in 2002 but failed to file any responses, Lamberth wrote that the court entered default judgments against the defendants in last December but was required to study the matter further under federal law regarding lawsuits against other countries.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/30/iran.barracks.bombing /

Is this still "proof enough for you" to cheerlead for war?

(Honestly, I hope not.)

[Laotra]

68. Honestly

do you really advocate genocide of over million people? Or were your words of murder spoken in haste, against your better judgement?

[Wcross]

71. I was unaware there were 1 million hezbollah terrorists.

Genocide is the extermination of a race of people. Murder is the killing of an unarmed innocent person. War is when opposing forces square off in armed conflict. Israel is well within its rights to go after a threat to its country. The fact that Lebanon has allowed hezbollah to operate freely in their country has brought war to lebanon.
I do stand by my statement. The world will be a better place without suicide bombers blowing up innocent people.
Do you advocate another genocide of the Israeli people? You do if you support Hezbollah. They are doing there best to destroy Israel.

BTW- I have 241 reasons to wish for the end of hezbollah. I have three very good reasons to cheer when a hezbollah fighter dies.

[iverglas]

79. remind me ...

Why was the US in Lebanon?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_Force_in_Lebanon

Americans had previously been involved in Lebanese affairs, during the 1958 Lebanon crisis. In that intervention, 14,000 Americans were sent to Lebanon by President Dwight D. Eisenhower to quell the opposition to President Camille Chamoun and neighboring countries. The operation was considered a success.

So, let's just stop a moment.

You ever heard of Camille Chamoun? Didn't think so. (That's "Mr." Chamoun, btw.)

... whoa, horsey; you don't want to be looking to wikipedia for everything:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberal_Party_(Lebanon)

The National Liberal Party ... is a political party in Lebanon, established by President Camille Chamoun in 1958. It is now under the leadership of Dory Chamoun, his son.

The party has adopted a hard line in regard to the preservation of Lebanese independence, and to the safeguard of the distinctive liberal practices in Lebanon with respect to freedom of expression and opinion and religious freedoms.

Oh yeah, "liberal" values, that's what Chamoun was all about. Not.

http://www.airpower.au.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1976/nov-dec/godwin.html
(written in 1976)

In addition to the political components, there was an important economic dimension to the Lebanese crisis of 1958. The postwar economic boom resulted in an inflation rate of 36 percent in 1950-51, which between 1955 and 1957 had risen to 75 percent.4 Lebanon had become a bifurcated society of the extremely wealthy and the extremely poor. This condition was made politically significant by the migration of the rural poor into the cities. At the same time the situation of the peasant was deteriorating. Economic deprivation cut across sectarian lines and provided a fertile ground for civil conflict.

The Christian element of the oligarchy was faced with a dilemma: Arab nationalism, personified by Nasser, was calling for a new Pan-Arab movement which was, in essence, secularized Pan-Islamism. But for Lebanon to accept this concept meant that the Christian elite would lose its predominant sociopolitical position. Moreover, the socialist course of Arab nationalism threatened the laissez-faire economic base of the Christian and non-Christian elements of the oligarchy. The oligarchy could not sever the linkage between Lebanon and the Arab world, but this linkage threatened to disrupt the Lebanese political system and draw it into the confrontation with Israel.

... In response to increasing civil strife in Lebanon, Chamoun accepted the Eisenhower Doctrine in March 1957. Thus, Chamoun violated the National Pact and forged a direct link between Lebanon and Soviet-American rivalry in the Middle East. Chamoun's immediate goal was to preserve both his personal power and the power of the Christian element of the oligarchy, but the path he took en-meshed Lebanon even deeper in the conflict structure of Middle Eastern politics.

... To support the Christian element of the Lebanese oligarchy with direct military assistance would undermine the structure of a settlement to the Arab-Israeli conflict negotiated by Secretary Kissinger. If the United States were to deploy troops in support of the ruling Christian faction as it did in 1958, this would be interpreted as an act hostile to the Arab world.

And ... what government was the multilateral force propping up in 1983?

http://www.laa.org/tours/thewar.htm

But on September 14, 1982, President-elect Jumayyil was assassinated in a massive radio-detonated explosion that leveled the Phalange Party headquarters where he was delivering a speech to party members. The perpetrator, Habib Shartuni, was soon apprehended. Shartuni, a member of the Syrian Socialist Nationalist Party, was allegedly a Syrian agent. Jumayyil's brother, Amin, who was hostile to the Israeli presence in Lebanon, was elected president with United States backing.

On the evening of September 16, 1982, the IDF, having surrounded the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila, dispatched approximately 300 to 400 Christian militiamen into the camps to rout what was believed to be the remnant of the Palestinian forces. The militiamen were mostly Phalangists under the command of Elie Hubayka, a former close aide of Bashir Jumayyil, but militiamen from the Israeli-supported SLA were also present. The IDF ordered its soldiers to refrain from entering the camps, but IDF officers supervised the operation from the roof of a six-story building overlooking parts of the area. According to the report of the Kahan Commission established by the government of Israel to investigate the events, the IDF monitored the Phalangist radio network and fired illumination flares from mortars and aircraft to light the area. Over a period of two days, the Christian militiamen killed some 700 to 800 Palestinian men, women, and children.

... The May 17 Agreement had significant implications for the MNF. As a noncombatant interpositional force preventing the IDF from entering Beirut, the MNF had been perceived by the Muslims in West Beirut as a protector. As the Israeli withdrawal neared, however, the MNF came to be regarded as a protagonist in the unfinished Civil War, propping up the Jumayyil government.

If you actually don't know what Phalangists are, you need to get a clue.

And if you would not have defended YOUR country and your people against an occupying force that was PROPPING UP the party that was responsible for an atrocity like that ... and that OPPOSED efforts to repel the Israeli invasion ... well, you wouldn't be much damn good, would you?

[Leopolds Ghost]

119. Turn That Statement Around -- and you'll begin to understand.

"(US/Israel/whomever) killed 220 (of my fellow Iraqi Arm soldiers), 18 (people from my home town in Lebanon).

They killed three guys I knew personally. The way I look at it, the more that die the better the world will be. Do you think I could EVER have sympathy for them? Never."

Why is terrorism wrong but not tribalism? Both are equally old-fashioned and barbaric. People who criticize the US because it was built on acts of terrorism and genocide are fools. ALL nations based on ethnic/social solidarity were built on a mix of terrorism, threat of terrorism, genocide, ethnic cleansing, or starvation/disease amongst their enemies. It's in the Bible; look it up and you'll see the limits of this kind of thinking.

[The Stranger]

53. I thought you had to log 200 posts before you started polls.

[leesa]

56. It's too bad Israel keeps creating these groups by invading and

slaughtering their neighbors.

[wordpix2]

61. Israel LEFT Lebanon, Israel LEFT Gaza, in return for peace but what does

Israel get? Rocket attacks!

[in_cog_ni_to]

63. Forget about throwing facts at these people.

NOTHING you say will matter. Israel sucks....Israel is bad...Israel is the terrorist group...Israel is hateful....Israel. Israel, Israel. EVERYTHING is Israel's fault. Didn't you get the memo?

[Warren DeMontague]

85. Yeah, but they DO have a solution. Israel should go away.

How can you blame the Palestinians and Hezbollah, when every day, every morning, they wake up and -WHAM!- Israel still exists! Would you like to live with that kind of in-your-face affront?

Maybe we can park all those Jews in Wyoming.

:sarcasm:

[Warren Stupidity]

116. Actually

Israel left Lebanon and except for the time they targetedly assasinated a Hezbollah leader in Beirut they had no rocket attacks from Lebanon. They did have an ongoing confrontation over the Shebba Farms region as both sides disagree about the status of this piece of land, and there was one other military confrontation after the 2000 withdrawal.

As for Gaza, 'left Gaza' is a bit of an overstatement. Gaza was and is essentially an internment camp ringed by Israeli forces and cut off from the rest of the world. The pull out of course did not end the targeted assasination program and the regular killing of civilians that this program results in, nor did it end the irregular and more or less random shooting of civilians in the border regions. The equally odious fuckwits inside Gaza continued their rocket attacks against Israel, just to make sure that there would be no peace.

Peace might have had a chance if the Israeli government, rather than isolating Hamas, had actually exploited the division between the Gazan Hamas government and the militant factions of Hamas led from Syria by reaching out to and working with Hamas in Gaza. Instead Israel chose, most likely for domestic political reasons, to marginalize the Hamas government and in doing so doomed its unilateral withdrawal.

[in_cog_ni_to]

62. Didn't you get the memo? Hezbollah is a Humanitarian and Cultural movement

:crazy:

HEZBOLLAH = TERRORIST GROUP. They always have been and always will be. They were a "terrorist" group LONG before the repuke party coopted the word to use for their sick agenda.

[Warren Stupidity]

84. Actually you should read up a bit on Hezbollah and how

exactly they have come to be such a powerful force in Lebanon. They are in reality both a militia and a humanitarian organization and a political organization. Their organizational model is very similar to the IRA, and for good reason: the IRA developed their three way model to completely embed themselves in their base. Just as the British found it was impossible to defeat the IRA, the Israelis keep rediscovering that it is impossible to defeat Hezbollah.

[Warren DeMontague]

86. How about explaining this part of their "humanitarian" agenda:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1669305

[Warren Stupidity]

93. I suspect you don't want to learn anything but...

Here is a very good read on Hezbollah from a rather reputable source:

"Like many other radical Islamist groups, Hezbollah builds both bombs and schools. It is popular among Lebanon's Shi'ite plurality and respected by many non-Shi'ite Lebanese, and its political wing holds 12 seats in parliament. In marked contrast to the Lebanese government, it offers relatively efficient public services and runs effective schools and hospitals. Although such social and political involvement does not indicate a fundamental reversal in the movement, as some apologists suggest, it does reflect a broadening of Hezbollah's functions beyond political violence. In southern Lebanon's Bekaa Valley and in several poor Shi'ite suburbs of Beirut -- an area analyst Gal Luft has dubbed "Hezbollahland" -- it exercises almost exclusive control and maintains a dense social network that provides food, medicine, education, and basic services."

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20031101faessay82606-p0/daniel-byman/should-hezbollah-be-next.html

[iverglas]

101. and in fact, re political parties in Lebanon

They are in reality both a militia and a humanitarian organization and a political organization

On the first and third points -- this has pretty much been true of most "parties" in Lebanon for quite some time.

http://www.cedarland.org/teams.html

Historically, political parties in Lebanon have lacked traits common to parties in most Western democracies. Lebanese parties often have had no ideology, have devised no programs, and have made little effort at transcending sectarian support. In fact, despite their claims, most parties have been thinly disguised political machines for a particular confession or, more often, a specific zaim. Although nondescript, broad titles have been applied, such as National Bloc Party or Progressive Socialist Party. With the exception of a handful of left-wing movements, most parties have been the organizational personification of a few powerful politicians. ...

Before and during the War, other political groupings were formed. Although ideology played some role in their formation, for the most part these alliances--the Lebanese National Movement and the Lebanese Front--tended to be temporary associations of politically motivated militias under the leadership of powerful zuama, and divisions generally followed sectarian lines. So ephemeral were these associations, however, that after the heaviest fighting of the mid- and late 1970s ceased, several of the groups in these coalitions turned their guns on each other. ...

Wouldn't it be nice if more people knew what they were talking about?

[Warren Stupidity]

114. I don't think many people are interested in learning.

They've got their mindset and are not interested in facts that are outside their comfort zone. It is much easier to have one dimensional labels: "evil terrorists must be exterminated", than to actually understand what is going on with both sides of this conflict and why so many are willing to fight kill and die for what they all honestly believe is a just cause.

[iverglas]

120. sometimes it's painful being old

and it ain't just the bunions.

Knowing that there is a reality that existed before so many of the people who don't have a clue about it and don't give a damn about it were born ... well, life would probably be easier with a spotless mind.

History, what a bore, eh?

[Odin2005]

64. Yelling "kill the terrists" is a copout to avoid solving the problem...

...causing those people to become terrorists. People don't become terrorists because they are "evil" (I don't belive there is such a thing as evil, there is only misguided ideas, bad influences, and mental illness), people become terrorists because of anger against the policies of the country they attack, and dispair they can't do anything to solve the problem peacefully. If we stopped our support of Israel and stopped supporting despots in muslim countries like the Saudi monarchy and Mubarak islamic terrorism would drop drastically.

[Bridget Burke]

65. "thinking about sending in a donation"?

I'm not happy with Hezbollah. Or Israel.

Sorry--you can't "reserve" threads.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[distantearlywarning]

92. I'm not going to comment on Israel vs. Hezbollah

The situation is complicated, and I'll be the first to admit I don't know enough to take a strong stand.

However, I did want to point out that this is exactly the kind of post that stirs up the fire here on DU. Instead of just taking issue with the poster's viewpoint and offering a reasonable alternative, you called him a name and insinuated that he is stupid or naive for believing as he does.

The original poster's response to you after reading your contemptous and disrespectful post will probably not be rational, measured, or polite; this will in turn lead you and others to post more contemptuous and disrespectful words later in this and other threads. We've got our own little Middle East microcosm here on DU, and you just placed yourself firmly in one of the camps lobbing missiles at the other. Your post just put one more log on the conflagration.

Next time please try to be more polite to your fellow Democrats. They have enough to fight without having to defend themselves against personal attacks from people who are supposed to be their allies.

[manic expression]

95. It is not unreasonable

to tell someone that their opinion is what it is.

The original post was not rational, measured or accurate, why should I expect his/her response to be any different? Again, disrespect toward insanity is not unreasonable.

Just my opinion.

[distantearlywarning]

100. Disrespect towards anyone,

no matter how "insane" you think their opinion is, feeds the flame wars on DU and sets us all against one another.

[manic expression]

102. Look,

when so many people are being killed over this, do you expect me to respect the opinions of someone who supports that? It's unacceptable, and so I tell them that.

Just my opinion.

[distantearlywarning]

104. Telling them it's unacceptable is fine.

Providing facts to back up your assertions is fine. Reasoned and respectful debate is fine.

You called him "pathetic" in the subject line. And that's what causes flame wars, not the initial disagreement.

[manic expression]

108. My subject line

basically tells him that it's unacceptable, in a more creative and direct manner. Again, I don't think it is unreasonable to not show respect for ideas that encourage brutality and injustice.

And again, this is just my opinion, and I definitely understand yours and respect yours.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. Hezbollah's a guerilla army.

It's a militia.

They're looking a lot better to the Lebanese than the IDF.

[bloom]

75. My response:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1684143&mesg_id=1684143

[Warren DeMontague]

89. So, if Terrorists aren't "Criminals"- please comment on this case:

This is the number one Individual that Hezbollah is asking for in "exchange" for the 2 IDF soldiers they kidnapped. From Israel. You know, precipitating this mess.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1669305

Now, in your mind- should that individual be dealt with as a criminal? A prisoner of war?

Lastly- I'm really curious, here- who do you think is responsible for more violence and bloodshed: Hezbollah? Or Larry Flynt?

[bloom]

109. As I mentioned

many criminals, as well as people in militias and people in the military exhibit aspects of Anti-social Personality Disorder. And they are generally in conflict with some society - criminals their own - militias/militaries with others.

I don't think that it's a good idea that criminals - whether they are murderers or the people who write torture policies should be rewarded.

I suppose that most militaries have a history of rewarding people for what people in other societies would consider to be atrocities.

I don't think that's a good idea either. But that is the nature of militaries.


No doubt there are many Israeli followers who have gotten every bad story there is to hear about about Hezbolla. But I also know that far more Palestinians are killed than Israelis - so does that give them the right to demonize Israelis. I suppose they think so.


I don't think that there is a good way to know how much violence Larry Flynt is responsible for. So I have no way to make that comparison.

[BreweryYardRat]

81. Yep.

They're scum who are attempting to use fear, chaos, death, and destruction to get what they want. Not the way, and they're just getting hundreds of Lebanese slaughtered in return.

You have to wonder if that's not part of their plan-attack Israel, get innocent people killed in retaliatory strikes, and then hope their surviving friends and family are stupid or emotionally traumatized enough to sign on with Hezbollah in an attempt to get back at Israel.

And the cycle goes on and on...

[Warren Stupidity]

82. Uh. no it can't. be reserved.

Think hard about that donation thing. Your truthiness is in question.

[porphyrian]

87. They're like the mob in the 20s...

They take care of their own and those that live in their neighborhood for the most part. They just kill a bunch of people too. Yeah, they aren't really good guys, but they do some good things for some people, even if it's for ulterior motives.

[IronLionZion]

88. I condemn all individuals who kill or hurt civilians

because they are terrorizing innocent people. War is hell and should be a last resort only to defend your people and national existence.

*Notice I did not mention any specific group. I'll leave it at that.

[Pacifist Patriot]

91. Violence Sucks

[Chi-Town Exile]

103. The Finger Pointing ... The Name Calling ... Who Started It ...

Where is this getting us?

There is enough blame to go around on both sides. This isn't a sporting event.

Why does ONE side have to be DEMONIZED in order to have any discussion about Israel/Palestine?!

I'm so sick of it ...

Let's stop calling each other names, stop demonizing and try to offer some solutions to the problem. If we can't even get to that point on a message board in cyber-space, how can we expect Israel/Hamas/Hezbollah etc. to get to the negotiating table?

[distantearlywarning]

105. That's exactly my point.

It's the ultimate irony. What a sad species we are. See my post #92 and subsequent responses.

[Jara sang]

106. Good post

Posting "Hezbollah Sucks" is the equivalent of putting a pissing Calvin sticker on the back of your Chevy truck.

[ComerPerro]

107. gee, what a bold statement

[The Gunslinger]

112. Whats up with the Bloodfrenzy around here.

Seriously, If I blindly clicked a link and got to theese fourms, it would take a while to realize it was not a Far right blog.

Looks like the noe-cons just found a way to stay in power.....
Finally a war everyone that most people can justify.. I cant wait to see what Fox and MSNBC are going to title it.

I dont really like Hezbollah either btw.

[The Magistrate]

122. Locking

This has become a flame-war.