If a radical, racisit, anti-Mexico group started shooting rockets

[Clarkie1]

across the Mexican border, and kidnapping Mexican citizens, would Mexico be morally justified to respond militarily?

Thankfully, it was only a bad dream...

You can turn it around the other way...what if radical Mexican terrorists (of course it will never happen, but just suppose) started lobbing rockets as far north as say, San Diego (but there were rumors some could reach L.A.) Suppose said terrorists numbered in the thousands and lived among neighborhoods in Tijuana and surrounding areas near the California border.

What then?

[rockymountaindem]

1. If the US didn't try to reign in those who fired the rockets

and allowed the attacks to continue despite repeated requests to stop them, then yes, Mexico, or any other country, would be justified in reacting militarily.

[MADem]

7. They'll REIN them in when the supply of rockets gets low

If they stop too soon, then the arsenals won't be hauled out and exposed. They want to bomb the living shit out of these caches while strangling off the source of supply. It's why so many of these explosions of schools and neighborhoods are so damn enormous--it's where the rockets are stashed.

Otherwise, we'll see this same shit happen in three months' time. All over again.

[Solon]

32. Instead, they will happen in 6 months' time, I really don't see this...

as a plus.

[MADem]

45. Figure out the supply route, it is long enough that it provides

many opportunities for interdiction. There are only so many points that lead to Beirut.

What should Israel do? Just let them bomb them, and then get pushed into the sea when they're done?

The guys doing the bombing have it in their charter that they want Israel destroyed and the Jews pushed into the sea. They want Lebanon to be a shi'a based theological state, not a multi-religious democracy.

Shouldn't the Israelis have the right to fight back after being attacked?

[progressivebydesign]

50. Lebanon cannot start another civil war!!!

They ASKED for help.. no the PLEADED for fucking help!! And they were ignored. If they send troops down there it is certain civil war.. for decades.. they asked for help. they got shit. Tired of that talking point.. it's been explained repeatedly. I only hear the rightwingers saying that...

[Endangered Specie]

2. Not if their "military response" is to kill hundreds of civilians,

displace thousands, destroy the infanstructure, and potentially ruin the economy and government of a sovergn nation that did not condone or support said attacks.

but, alas, that is what the IDF sees as justified.

[rucky]

3. Would you bomb the airport? Grain silos? Suburbs?

that makes about as much sense as invading Iraq for 9/11.

The Lebanese PM is not Hezbollah, and was left in a vaccum when Syria left. Nobody bothered to work with the Lebanese DEMOCRACY to fill that vacuum. There are government acts that may or may not justify war (once all diplomacy fails) and there are acts of "radical racist groups" that warrant government cooperation and surgical action.

Collective punishment is unjust. We have people firebombing abortion clinics here - one just last week in Louisiana. Do we attack Louisiana?

[MADem]

10. IF that is where Hizb'Allah stashed their missles and rockets, yes, I sure

would.

And seeing as twenty percent of the Lebanese Army is Hizzies, I'd be checking them real carefully too, especially the SOUTHERN barracks.

I'd be awfully surprised if the Israelites didn't have some good imagery of where the Hizzie weapons caches are.

It probably accounts for the ENORMOUS booms and massive fireballs that occur when they drop just one bomb on a target.

[progressivebydesign]

51. Wow. they stash missiles in the int'l airport?

Really? and in suburban homes and on streets? wow.. clever.

[MADem]

56. They brought them in via the airport...and ya know who helps them???

The twenty percent of the Lebanese Army that is Hiz'b'Allah.

Those rockets came in via AIR. From Syria. They also came in via road from SYRIA. They also wanted to be sure the captured soldiers didn't end up in IRAN by taking off from that airport. Or the other two airports that got cratered runways, as well.

And yes, they are stashed in homes, in schools, in barns, in hospitals. Militia groups that are marginally recognized by the parent government don't have military bases or armories. They're pulling those rockets out from under the bed, and launching them from Grannie's garden, or Uncle Abdul's roof.

So yeah, wow, really. Clever.

But the cleverest thing of all is that Iran is getting a LOT of data out of this exercise--this is more of a workout than their little arsenals have gotten in years, and their stocks and launch capabilities have improved substantially since the old days of the Iran-Iraq war. So Iran is just loving this.....I'm sure they'll figure out eventually which device is best suited to carry a tactical nuke, and that will motivate them to get busy on their weapons program, you see....

[Marie26]

69. Sounds about right

One thing I don't understand is why they're targeting civilian infrastructure. Hizbollah is along the southern Lebanon border, but it seems like the biggest strikes are aimed at Beirut (unless news coverage is lopsided). Israel is bombing bridges, civil defense buildings, ports, etc. This seems completely counter-productive and aimed more at Lebanon than Hizbollah. The stated reason is that they're "punishing" Lebanon to make the democratic gov. restrain Hizbollah, but I don't buy that. All the experts are saying that Lebanon can't control Hizbollah, & Israel must know that. And attacking Lebanese civilian sites destabilizes the democratic government & might create even more support for these militia groups. So what's the point of that?

[MADem]

72. Alledgedly, and we don't have access to their intel, so who knows...

...Hizb'Allah has several HUNDRED longer-range rockets, the twenty-five foot beauties that can make it all the way to Tel Aviv, halfway down the Israeli coast, if launched from the southern border stored at a variety of points from Beirut northward.

The goal is not just to prevent more missiles and rockets from making it over the border from Syria by way of Iran, but also to prevent movement of cached supplies and weaponry from the north to the south.

I can just see the Iranians giving all sorts of tweaked-up rockets and missiles to the militia--here, lads, test these out, let us know which ones work the best in a real-war environment...the better to put a small tac nuke warhead on one of them someday down the line...!

[Marie26]

76. Could be

Yeah, Iran is bad & Hizballah is bad. But the invasion still seems like an incredible over-reaction. Maybe there's long-range missiles, but those would also be stationed as close to the Israel border as possible before launch, right? If weapons are coming from Syria, why is it necessary to bomb the port of Tripoli in n. Lebanon? It just seems like many of the targets offer a very limited value compared to the damage it inflicts on Lebanon. What stuns me are the level of civilian casualties here - 300+ Lebanese civilians killed, & only 2 Hizballah militants confirmed dead so far. You'd think, even by accident, they'd be killing more militants than they are. I know that Israel feels it must do this to protect its security & I've tried to see their side. But I still feel that this is a war crime & should be condemned by the UN. Otherwise, the very concept of international law becomes meaningless. Hizbollah doesn't care about int. law or human rights, of course, but Israel should.

[MADem]

83. One of the news reports said that those long-range beauties were

stashed in caches in the NORTH, not the south. And that's why they are bombing those locations.

Also, apparently they are getting some hands-on help from the Iranians in launching these prize weapons: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19missile.html?_r=1&fta=y&oref=slogin



Officials said it was likely that Iran trained Hezbollah fighters on how to successfully fire and guide the missiles, and that members of Iran’s Al Quds force — the faction of the Revolutionary Guards that trains foreign forces — would not necessarily have to be on the scene to launch the C-802.

At the same time, some experts said Iran was not likely to deploy such a sophisticated weapon without also sending Revolutionary Guard crews with the expertise to fire the missile.

An administration official said intelligence reports have concluded that a small number of Iranians are currently operating in Lebanon, but the official declined to disclose their number or mission.


Apparently, the rumor is that some of these could make it past Haifa from where they are stored. If they wanted to get to Tel Aviv, they'd need to be transported, perhaps, but they can still hit the Jewish state from where they are hidden.


The interactive map here (to the left of the story, click on TRADING ATTACKS)
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/20/world/middleeast/20military.html is pretty interesting. It shows the missiles in the Hiz'b'Allah arsenal and their ranges, as well as the population densities of the impacted areas.

And it's clear to me that Hizb'Allah are holding the nation of Lebanon hostage. Even the leadership there is AFRAID of them:

An Italian newspaper quoted Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora on Thursday as making his strongest statement yet against the Shiite militant group. But Saniora's office quickly said he was misquoted.

The Milan-based Corriere della Sera quoted him as saying in an interview that Hezbollah has created a "state within a state," adding: "The entire world must help us disarm Hezbollah. But first we need to reach a ceasefire."

Saniora later issued a statement denying the remarks. He said he told the paper that the international community must help press Israel from Chebaa Farms, a small border area that Lebanon claims and Hezbollah points to as proof of the continued need for armed resistance.

Saniora told the paper that "the continued presence of Israeli occupation of Lebanese lands in the Chebaa Farms region is what contributes to the presence of Hezbollah weapons. The international community must help us in (getting) an Israeli withdrawal from Chebaa Farms so we can solve the problem of Hezbollah's arms," the statement said. There was no immediate comment from the Italian paper.

On Wednesday, Saniora appealed for a ceasefire, saying his country "has been torn to shreds." Warplanes pounded areas in the south where Hezbollah operates - but civilian residential neighbourhoods bore the brunt, with dozens of houses destroyed.

He wasn't MISQUOTED, IMO. He meant what he said, but he was scared shitless he'd end up dead just like the last guy in that job did. And seeing as the UN says that disputed area belongs to SYRIA, that excuse is a lame one on a good day.... http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/news/shownews.jsp?content=w072027A

[Marie26]

85. I agree w/everything

you posted. One meme around here is that the Syria/Iran involvement is just propaganda, but it seems real & continuous. My only quibble is w/the means Israel has chosen to go after Hizbollah. Air strikes might minimize Israeli casualties, but it maximizes civilian deaths & doesn't really target the actual militants. The country has been "torn to shreds," & completely decimated, even though Lebanon itself is not fighting Israel. It's just inhumane & against int. law, IMO. I wish Israel & Hizbollah would fight like the old days - just march out on a field & leave the civilians alone.

[MADem]

86. Or a chess game!!! I agree with you, I hate the tactics, but that said,

one of the things that is not getting any play is that Israel has done two things--they leafleted before they started bombing, telling everyone to get the hell out:
By midday, the city grew more panicked as Israeli warplanes dropped leaflets over the Hezbollah-controlled southern suburbs, warning residents to evacuate the area before impending attack. Many families packed their bags and left for the countryside, where their chances of being hurt would be lower. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/14/world/middleeast/14mideast.html?pagewanted=2

AND they also did a really unusual, surprising, really, telemarketing technique--they CALLED people in the neighborhoods they have targeted for heavy action and with an arabic voice recorded message, told them to get out as well: Many residents said they had received telephone calls from an Israeli auto-dialler, playing a taped message warning them to go. According to hotelier Raymond Salha, the Arabic message said: "To the people of south Lebanon, for your safety leave now north of the Litani (River). Don't use motorbikes, trucks or buses, only cars, otherwise you will be a target. From the state of Israel."
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/refugees-trapped-by-bombing-as-israel-moves-in/2006/07/20/1153166520799.html?page=2

They're continuing with these tactics, too, as they mull over invading--and it does look like that could happen:

But an Israeli army spokesman refused to rule out the possibility of a full-scale invasion. Israel broadcast warnings Wednesday into south Lebanon, telling civilians to leave the region -- a possible prelude to a larger Israeli ground operation.

''There is a possibility -- all our options are open. At the moment, it's a very limited, specific incursion but all options remain open,'' Capt. Jacob Dallal, an Israeli army spokesman, told The Associated Press on Wednesday.

Leaflets dropped Wednesday night warned the population that any trucks traveling in Lebanese towns south of the Litani River would be suspected of carrying weapons and rockets and could be targeted by Israeli forces.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Lebanon-Israel.html?pagewanted=print


The Syrian connection is there, and not just through the supply lines. They're also giving them hardware as well: Of the 13,000 missiles and rockets estimated to be in Hezbollah’s arsenal, approximately 11,000 are believed to have been shipped from Iran. Western intelligence officials also believe that Syria has armed Hezbollah with a number of short- and medium-range rockets, some of which have been used during Hezbollah’s current offensive. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/17/world/middleeast/17cnd-mideast.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5094&en=c84121179713dab0&hp&ex=1153195200&partner=homepage

Another good article on the weaponry aspect: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-hezarms20jul20,1,1888258.story?coll=la-news-a_section

[JDPriestly]

4. Yes. It's called sovereignty. It works both ways.

[MADem]

5. Oh, noooooooooooooooooooooo!

The Mexicans should sit idly by, with their hands folded, their heads covered by wide sombreros, their shoulders covered with artful serapes, and they should cheerfully count, uno, dos, tres...as the missiles fly over their heads and crush their third largest city.

But no, they shouldn't respond. They're the designated BAD GUYS in this little play! The theocratic, racist thugs are the designated heroes, you see!

Do I need to haul one of these out??? :sarcasm:

[jonnyblitz]

6. I can't tell which side you are analogizing?

:shrug:

[Endangered Specie]

9. Im fairly sure the Mexicans = Israel in this case.

[Alcibiades]

24. You're kidding

I was sure it was the other way around.

[rockymountaindem]

25. Me too.

[TankLV]

35. Now I'm confused. I don't have the official score/interpretation card yet

[Marie26]

79. It's just a bad analogy. nt

[Solon]

8. I have no clue, but I wonder why Britian didn't bomb Dublin...

for IRA attacks in the past, seems to be a closer analogy to me.

[MADem]

11. Well, plenty of IRA were citizens of the north, which was UK land NT

[Solon]

14. And that's supposed to make a difference?

Let's see, for the longest time, the IRA had an elected political party that supported them, but denied it, not to mention that they themselves were guilty of kidnappings, killings, assassinations, bombings, etc. for years, and many were sheltered by powers that be in Ireland. How is this different from Lebanon now? Why didn't Britian bomb Ireland to glass?

[MADem]

17. Because the troublemakers were BRITISH, as I said. They came

from BELFAST ya see.

The ones from Ireland proper were watched like hawks. It was the UK CITIZENS who were planting those bombs in the tube station.

And they certainly did engage in terrorism. But who is defending the IRA? What do they have to do with a SECT of shia thugs wanting to take over a multi-religious nation from a majority that DOES NOT SUPPORT THEM, and bend it to their will???

Let's look at Lebanon. It's not a SHI'A country. But Hizb'Allah wants it to be. Screw those Christians and Sunnis. They're gonna bow, if the Hiz has their way.

Oh, and that democracy going on in Lebanon? Screw that. It will be a shi'a THEOCRACY if the Hizzies have their way.

Who funds the Hiz? IRAN...to the tune of MILLIONS. And the Hiz uses that money to strengthen their militia, buy missiles, and fund clinics, schools, and widows and orphans funds.

But if Iran stops paying, those services--and that support--will dry up faster than a puddle at high noon.

It's not REAL support--it's "what have you done for me lately" support.

Jordan, Egypt AND SAUDI ARABIA...yes, the Saudis...have called for the Hizzies to cut this crap out. To STOP. The Arab world is NOT supporting these bastards.

Indo-European Iran, though, is cheering them madly. Why would that be, I wonder....

[Solon]

19. Some did yeah...

Whether it was IRA or the Unionists I guess only matters in whose side you were on. BTW: Many in the United States funded one side or the other, to keep the violence up I guess. However, not ALL the terrorists were FROM Belfast, many were from the Republic, others from Northern Ireland. Also another little factoid, some, on both sides, are fanatic enough to want to "Cleanse" their nations/Island of the "other", whether that other was Catholic or Protestant depends on who you side with. But the similarities are striking, when you think of it objectively.

Another note: I don't give a shit if Hezbollah is destroyed utterly, what I am concerned about is how many INNOCENTS are taken out in the process. What both sides are is a bunch of shit, I don't really give a shit who is "right" in this conflict, just that it stops.

[MADem]

20. Hey, no one leaps for joy when innocents get it. But that said,

those innocents would not be getting it if Hiz'b'Allah would stop stowing the missles under little Achmed's crib, or behind Fatima's vegetable stand.

We know, fully, damn well, without a doubt, that any targeting that is happening in neighborhoods is happening only AFTER the Global Hawk has done a dozen passes. They aren't GUESSING, here.

This is why one dropped bomb is making such loud booms. It's what happens when you light off three to five Katushyas under the baby's bed.

But see, Hizzies just do not care about this life, or anyone in it. Even the innocents. They know full well what they are doing, and by keeping those people there as human shields, they're the ones who are being inhumane.

[Solon]

22. Aren't human sheilds only useful when the other side DOESN'T shoot them?

That's what puzzles me the most, OK, the US does pretty much the same thing, but is it really necessary drop 500lb or greater bombs in neighborhoods that MAY hold terrorists, but is still only a best guess?

[MADem]

26. No, sometimes they are way more useful when they are adorably dead

Whose heart hasn't been tugged by the corpse of the little child, or the kid all wrapped up in bandages with a big tear in his little eye?

The best shields, from a propaganda perspective, are dead shields (not too torn up, though). The cuter, the better. A picture that evokes outrage is worth a million words.

They aren't going AFTER the terrorists, though. They really aren't. They are going after those thirteen thousand missiles and rockets. And they need time to get them all--that's what this delay is all about.

They figure they can nip this shit in the bud once and for all. Who knows if they will succeed, but that is their aim. Get 'em all, and either redo the old Green Zone (their heart isn't in that) or find a way for a multinational force to come in and do the buffer business (forget the UN, it would take too long).

They're operating on intel, that's why the explosions are so huge, because they are hitting those caches. Clearly, it isn't Niger Yellowcake Monkeyshit intel, it's the real deal.

[Solon]

27. There is no practical way they can get ALL those weapons from air bombings

in fact, it probably would have been MUCH more effective to use ground forces, and it would have cut down on the "collateral damage". Also, no nation's intelligence is perfect, it would be foolhardy to say otherwise, so, I really don't think what Israel is doing is the best method. In fact, I believe its going to be extremely ineffective at best, and detrimental at worst. Targeting weapons today just delays them being bought tomorrow, a decent RPG can be had for a few grand, and longer range missles cost about as much as a large car or so, and both are sold on black markets worldwide, I don't really see how this action will amount to much.

[MADem]

29. GROUND FORCES??? Are you mad?? Israel lost six hundred

servicemembers in the old Green Zone...they do NOT want to go back in there. They were there for twenty years, hell, they only got out of there a short while back, it was like their IRAQ for the kids in the military--it was shitty, unavoidable duty for them. They do NOT want to go back to that.

What they are looking for is this: someone, anyone (the Lebanese Army, or the LA ACCOMPANIED BY a multinational force, such as a NATO entity) to do a peacekeeping mission for the first 20-30 Km. abutting their border. That way, the Hizzies are pushed back, and if they try to launch from inside the zone, the multinationals will nail them. But they've got a good idea exactly where the supply is coming from, which will make cutting the line easier.

Killing Jews on foot is a Hizb'Allah sport. It would be the first day of open hunting season for the Hizzies if Israel ever redeployed to Lebanon. I can't see them doing it if they can possibly find other options.

Edit...spelling error

[Solon]

31. The Lebenese Army is being destroyed by Israel as we speak...

So I don't really see that as an option. As far as Israel opting to not send in troops, to minimize civilian casualties, I guess there goes the argument that they are even trying to minimize civilian casualties. Also, 600 deaths in 20 years isn't that bad, compared to Iraq today, or Vietnam. Then again, proportionally, that may have been greater for them. Still no excuse, however for opting for this bombing, no matter how targeted, that makes civilian casualities, so far a little over a third of total military casulities Israel suffered, inevitable.

[MADem]

37. They are targeting the units that are Hiz infiltrated

Twenty percent of the LA is Hiz'b'Allah. It's how half the rockets got to them.

If you don't want civilian casualties in a war of your making, you should not put your Katushya rockets under Firooz's bed, or Mariam's toybox. You shouldn't stow your missles in grandma's house, nor launch them from her garden, from the neighborhood square, from the market, or from the schoolyard.

I have no sympathy for Hiz'bAllah. They are brutes, they are thugs, and they are theological nutcases who want to rule with bullshit in one hand and a Koran in the other.

They are intolerant, vile bastards, who, if allowed to keep this shit up, will ensure that a whackjob religious minority holds absolute sway over a multi-religious, diverse population that will be able to say they USED to be a democracy.

[Solon]

38. Your point is?

Look, so far you repeated/paraphrased a post to me, twice, that just says Hezbollah sucks, look I agree. No argument there, I just don't like Israel's tactics in this particular instance, I find them stupid, shortsighted, and ineffective. There are always other options in conflict.

[MADem]

40. My point was to reply to YOUR point, and I DID THAT

I provided facts for you. Twenty percent of the Lebanese Army is Hiz'bAllah. That means the LA is totally unreliable. One of five is an insurgent, for all intents and purposes.

No one will tell me what Israel should do as bombs rain down on them. Tactics? The Powell Doctrine of OVERWHELMING FORCE is a pretty good tactic. Had we used it in Iraq, maybe there wouldn't be 2.5+K on the USA/KIA list. Why should they put their military assets in harm's way when they were the ones who were attacked?

When their servicmembers were killed and captured? When they were NOT the aggressors? When JORDAN, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt all agree that Hizb'Allah was WRONG and should STOP?

When Lebanon failed to put the Army on the border, as they agreed to do, and instead let the Hizzies set up shop there?

What should Israel do? Tell Haifa, "Oh, ignore them, they're just a few bombs?"

Hizb'Allah LOVES to do this shit. They've done it before, but not in such sustained fashion. They're doing it because IRAN wants this story center-stage, not the G8.

And it's working.

[Solon]

42. Don't put words in my mouth...

I never said ignore them, did I say that in any of my posts? As far as the Powell doctrine, its blitzkrieg redux, I don't put much stock in that stuff myself. Especially in Iraq which IS a war of aggression on our part. Which, if we actually did as you suggested, we probably would have flattened most of that nation, but at what cost, millions of lives? Right now we have no moral high ground, in fact, we lost that long ago, but that is besides the point. I wasn't saying that Israel shouldn't respond, just saying that it's tactics WON'T WORK!

Besides, Israel is NOW invading with troops, so perhaps this discussion is now completely academic. No nation has ever been completely cowed by airpower alone, troops on the ground is what conquers nations, that is all.

[MADem]

44. If you call postulating a series of questions somehow putting words in

your mouth, I give up.

It's called debating.

Shinseki wanted to go in there to Iraq with 350K troops at a minimum; that would be like a cop on every corner. There would have been no NEED to bomb anything with those kind of numbers.

Did you realize that ISRAEL has already spent twenty years in southern Lebanon??? That SL was their IRAQ? That they hated it, and wanted to leave? That they asked the Lebanese government to put the army on the border as they left, and the government didn't do that? They let a bunch of fundie nutcase militia kooks set up shop there instead?

You don't like their tactics, OK, fine.

What should they do??? Ignore the rockets? Ask nicely? "Say, I know your stated goal is the eradication of Israel and pushing all the Jews into the sea, but would you mind not bombing us?"

Everyone seems to be free to GRIPE about Israel, but no one is coming up with a way to make the missles stop hitting their third largest city.

[Solon]

46. leading questions that create a false dichotomy...

That is what I'm talking about, I postulated a choice that does NOT involve doing NOTHING, yet you asked the same question twice so far, one where MY ANSWER is that Israel should have responded, with military force. My problem is HOW THEY IMPLEMENT THAT MILITARY FORCE. Is that in any way UNCLEAR?

[MADem]

47. Yes, it is unclear. They ARE responding with military force, but

it doesn't suit you. You seem angry at them for responding like Colin Powell. They are beating back the rockets in this fashion, and protecting their land.

But what, you want them to go house to house and be shot by militia as they so do? They, understandably, aren't interested in dying, their military is relatively small and must substitute technology for personnel, so they don't go for this technique. They are interested in finding and destroying the rockets and the people launching them, not becoming targets themselves.

They are doing three things--they are going after places from where the rockets originate, and they are going after places they have determined that hold rockets in storage. They are cutting off the supply lines, so new rockets can't get through.

And the pace of firing is slowing as a consequence.

[Solon]

48. Look, hitting roads, even a few factories you believe contain weapons...

are valid military targets. However, targeting NEIGHBORHOODS, knowing that less than 1 in 10 people in said neighborhood is NOT Hezbollah, then YES you should go door to door to find the actual terrorists and try to MINIMIZE the civilian casualties. Besides, soldier casualties could be kept to the minimum, I doubt they, unlike the US, don't supply their soldiers with body armor. Not to mention tank support, etc. They wouldn't necessarily have been sitting ducks, as it were. You say they will get shot at, well no shit, this is a war, not a vacation outing.

[MADem]

49. When the rocket is being launched from the garden at number ten

Malik Street, that is a VALID military target. When the missile comes from the roof of twelve Goli Avenue, that's a legitimate military target. If it comes from the playground at the Ayatullah Khomeini Infant's school, that's a valid target too.

They aren't shooting willy-nilly here; these are acquired targets. It's why one bomb is often making a huge boom--because it takes six or more rockets with it.

The Hizb'Allah who are keeping their families in those neighborhoods, and using the residences to launch attacks, are deliberately putting those people at risk. With malice and understanding, they are doing that.

If you see rockets being launched from the walled garden next door, you should probably figure than in twenty minutes, tops, you're gonna get pounded.

But the Israelis should have to risk their lives going house to house because the Hiz are willfully using their families and neighbors as human shields? Sounds like a fine trap to me!!!

Sorry, I can't buy your argument.

[Solon]

52. They may be valid targets, but that doesn't make it moral to actually...

hit them with missles and bombs. I'm sorry, I value innocent life a LOT more than that. Just because Hezbollah is cowardly enough to use innocents as sheilds doesn't mean that Israel has to actually comply with their wishes.

In the long term, such a tactic is foolhardy, for every bomb that destroys the house of the innocents, any survivors are now potential terrorists, people who will do whatever it takes to destroy those who destroyed their lives. Its a vicious cycle, but in the long term, many more Israeli lives will be lost because of actions JUST LIKE THIS. Part of the reason why Hezbollah is in these neighborhoods is because they know that for every one of them that is killed, 10 more previously unaffiliated civilians rise, in revenge, to take their place.

[MADem]

53. Ok....let me be sure I understand, here

It is NOT OK to drop a bomb on a rocket launcher in a civilian neighborhood, that is shooting into the apartments of little Israeli children and killing them, in order to STOP that from happening, in case the militiaman operating the rocket launcher is using a house that has civilians in it to do his evil deeds.

So, we'll just let the guy sit there and shoot rockets, again and again and again, for oh, say, an hour or more, until we can get a truck full of Israeli soldiers to run the gauntlet twenty miles into Lebanon, and, assuming they aren't taken out, they can charge up the stairs and handcuff the evildoer???

Sure.

[Solon]

55. So we trade the lives of innocent Israeli children with Lebenese ones...

instead? Is that your answer? Also, who said anything about handcuffing the "evildoer", as our Illustrious LeaderTM would say? Go in with TANKS, AIR SUPPORT, ARMORED CARRIERS, etc. not just a damned truck. Jesus, are you always this obtuse, or is it just on this subject?

[MADem]

57. Hey, the daddies of those kids KNOW what they are doing when they

stash that rocket under Abdul's crib. They KNOW what they are doing when they go out into Auntie Fatimah's garden and shoot one off toward Haifa.

Do you know how slow a tank goes? Or an APC??? That guy could shoot off ten rockets, have a sandwich, and shoot off ten more before they got there.

But oh, yeah, AIR SUPPORT.....what do you think they're doing NOW????? They are taking out the launch sites.

I could ask you the same question about being obtuse. For some reason, when a Hizb'Allah asshole, who wants to push Jews into the sea and eradicate Israel (a real Kumbayah type) sets up his rocket launcher around civilians, HE isn't the bad guy.

But the Israelis who are taking these rockets up the wazoo, and who RESPOND--not initiate, respond-- to STOP the bombardment, they're bad, because Hizzie the Militiaman deliberately and with malice aforethought, knowingly put his friends, family and neighborhood at risk.

Good grief.

[Solon]

58. So all Lebenese men are terrorists to you?

Thanks, that's all I need to know, you are not worth my time, goodbye!

[MADem]

59. No, only ones with rockets under their little kids' beds, who have

launchers in their houses. And who are aiming those rockets at Haifa.

As I stated.

But no, make a snarky remark that has nothing to do with the thread, and a rude comment, followed by GOODBYE!!!

But it still doesn't make your Hizb'Allah murderers "freedom fighters." No matter how much you try to polish those thugs up, they are still TURDS, bound and determined to destroy both Lebanon and Israel, and aided and abetted by people like you who do not bother to educate yourself on their agenda or their connections.

So thanks back at you, you've told me all I need to know about your geopolitical understanding of the region and the issues. And GOODBYE to you, as well!!

[Solon]

60. So now I "aid and abet" terrorists?

Apologize NOW! I try to be REASONABLE, and YOU are the one who throws out insults, who the FUCK are YOU to say I DON'T think they are the bad guys here?

[MADem]

61. What would you call your defense of Hizb'Allah???

Read up on those guys. They ARE terrorists. You're the one saying falsely, that I think all Lebanese men have rockets under their beds and deserve to die.

I'm being reasonable and factual. You are being dramatic and insulting.

[Solon]

62. Where did I defend Hezbollah?

Show me the sentence, right now, or retract it, also, you are the one saying shit like "Baby Abdul" and shit, Islamophobia amok!

ON EDIT: By the Way, just in case you don't know, Miriam is a HEBREW name, but I don't expect you to know that.

[MADem]

63. Mariam is an ARAB name, and a Persian name too

My next door neighbor in Teheran was named Mariam.

And she wasn't a Jew. By the way.....

They may be valid targets, but that doesn't make it moral to actually...
hit them with missles and bombs. I'm sorry, I value innocent life a LOT more than that. Just because Hezbollah is cowardly enough to use innocents as sheilds doesn't mean that Israel has to actually comply with their wishes.

Aww, they may be VALID targets, but those darn Jews are being IMMORAL to defend themselves--they should let THEIR kids die, while militiamen shoot rockets from Lebanese neighborhoods into their communities. See, you value INNOCENT life...and those Jewish kids who get hit by the rockets, their lives must not be innocent...at least that's what it sounds like you are implying, to me.

Cut me some slack.

I am done with you, you don't have enough information to discuss this topic. You defend the aggressors, and chastise those defending themselves.

[Solon]

64. Why should I cut you some slack in this?

Those quotes you pulled out don't prove anything more than the fact that I value innocent life, Israeli or Lebanese, I don't CARE what side of a border they are on, I want BOTH to live. Also, I did NOT say that Israelis are immoral I said that a SPECIFIC action was immoral. Why do you confuse the two, deliberately? Also, why do you try to be snarky with this "Aunt Fatimah" and "Baby Abdul" shit?

Mariam is the Arabic form of Miriam, a Hebrew name, see what a difference one letter makes?

I'm done with you too, Mister "Expert of the Middle East".

[MADem]

65. You were the one who started lecturing ME on

Miriam, when if you look at my original reference, it was to Mariam. Way to snark!

But hey, we're going to disagree here. You think the innocent Israelis in Haifa and points beyond should continue to be killed to spare the innocent Lebanese who are gathered around the rocketeers, while I think the rocketeers should be held accountable for placing their families and neighbors deliberately in harm's way.

[Solon]

66. No I don't think that...

I said there were other options besides killing those neighbors and families.

[MADem]

71. Yet you pose only unworkable options.

In your scenarios, Israeli children continue to be murdered in their Haifa apartments...while Israeli soldiers go "house to house" over the border, presenting themselves as targets to their enemy, trying to find elusive rocketeers.

And these rocketeers aren't going to wait around for the Israelis to arrive, or stop until they run out of rockets, which will only happen when the supply lines are decisively interdicted.

Sure, there are other options--the Hizb'Allah could STOP FIRING rockets from neighborhoods. That would be a start.

[Marie26]

73. How does that work long-term?

Israel did the same exact thing w/the PLO, & as soon as they withdrew, Hizbollah set up shop. Probably even more extreme & fanatical than the PLO. Let's say Israel eliminates every rocket in Lebanon. What do they do then? They can't keep supply lines cut forever - eventually roads will re-open & planes will start flying. Iran is still there as a willing funder & there's a lot more angry, radicalized Lebanese willing to join a "terrorist/resistance group". They can try to occupy & monitor the entire country, but there aren't the ground forces to do that. They can try to get a UN force to create a buffer zone, but that won't prevent missiles/arms from being shipped through Syria; and long-range missile launches from further away. So, how does Israel accomplish their goal of completely disarming Hizbollah, anyway?

[MADem]

75. That is why the G8 solution will likely be the one that occurs

There will be a peacekeeping multinational force in the same locations where the Israelis were parked for twenty years. Whoopee, who draws straws for that fun duty??

And it wouldn't surprise me at all if either Bashar al-Assad is convinced to 'come to Jesus' just like they managed to do with Libya's Muahmar Khaddafi, or, failing that, that some sort of "popular uprising" miraculously occurs in Syria, and the leadership is magically overthrown.

The latter scenario is way too tough to manage; the former, if we can induce Putin, who has clout with them, to help lean on the eye doctor, is quite do-able. Syria just needs to be made sufficiently UNCOMFORTABLE so that they clearly see the benefit of rejoining the community of nations.

If you get Syria out of the equation, with carrots, sticks, or both, then the supply line to Hizb'Allah is dead. And Hizb'Allah turns into something like the PLO, who were chased out of Lebanon, whining, to Tunis, where they sat for years. When they emerged, their military strength was decimated, and their political strength was being carried on the shoulders of one man alone, Yassir Arafat. He's dead, and so is the PLO now, for all intents and purposes, eclipsed by HAMAS.

If the Lebanese government can survive all this, then they can eventually put their forces on the border, as they were supposed to do in the first place as the Israelis withdrew, but only after they've purged their Army of Hiz'b'Allah malcontents. That may take some time.

When Hiz'b'Allah filled the vacuum left by the PLO, there was no functioning government in Lebanon. There is one now--weak, but functioning. With any luck, they'll be the ones to fill the void. They will need to prioritize social services for the poor to succeed, because the poor are mostly shi'a...and Iran will look for replacements within that community if they lose their current proxies.

[Marie26]

77. What a nightmare

20 years occupying a war zone? Who wants that job? It seems like that multi-national force should have been there in the first place, when UN Resolution 1559 was passed. The UN gave Lebanon an impossible task in disarming Hizballah & one that was doomed to failure. Maybe a real UN presence in S. Lebanon could've prevented all this. Maybe not. I like your comment that the ultimate long-term solution here is prioritizing social services for the poor. Seems like Hizbollah is the only one doing that right now & uses that to gain popular support. And it seems like creating a real middle-class among shia Muslims could help end support for terrorist org. like this. But even w/o the missiles, Hez.'s still got Parliament seats & wide-spread support. I dunno - it seems like as long as there's hatred for Israel, there'll be an organization ready to channel it.

OK - the potential solution could be:

- Israel agrees to cease-fire after destroying most Hez. rockets.
- Hez. releases kidnapped soldiers - in exchange for end to bombings?
- multinational UN force occupying buffer zone
- Syria agrees to withdraw support

Sounds possible, at least. I just wish the US would actually get involved to help mediate this thing. Thank you for humoring my questions - I've learned a lot from your posts.

[MADem]

84. They should put you on the ceasefire negotiating team!!!!

The US will jump in, EVENTUALLY but they are waiting....they figure since Israel is the nation that is so easy to hate anyway in that end of the world, they're damned if they do, damned if they don't...and they figure they can take out as many Hiz'bAllah assets as possible during the next week or so, and then do the negotiations for a truce, and in the long run, people won't remember how long it took, and the potential for them to rearm will be all the more degraded.

The challenge there is not waiting TOO long, so as not to look like an enabler of human misery, OR twiddling thumbs while some crazy actor decides to do something completely insane (like, oh, say...putting a sneakily-acquired Pakistani or antique Russian tac nuke on the end of one of those rockets?) that ends up touching off WW3.

We need a multinational force on that border though--the Lebanese Army is not up to the job, and the Israelis really don't want to go back and do that crap all over again if they can avoid it.

[Marie26]

70. But if Hizbollah stopped

launching missiles & returned those soldiers tomorrow, that wouldn't stop the Israeli offensive, would it? Seems like Israel made the decision to take out Hizbollah completely, & that's why they don't want a cease-fire. In that sense, Israel is the aggressor here, right? That's why I don't get Bush's simplistic statement that this would be solved if Syria asked Hiz. to stop. I'm not sure what Hizbollah could offer at this point that Israel would accept - short of complete disarmament. (I'm not arguing w/you, just asking cause you're one of the few people here who knows a lot about this!)

[MADem]

74. That is what the G8 asked for, I suspect the Israelis would go along with

the G8 lead, at least as regards Lebanon, providing some multinational force occupies the buffer zone. They do NOT want to get into that business again--they did it for more than twenty years, and it cost them hundreds of servicemembers' lives; plus, it was costly. It did keep their military at a high state of alert, but they're pretty much on that level anyway.

Desperate to achieve a united front, leaders at the G8 summit reached a compromise by setting the conditions for a ceasefire.

Those terms were the return, unharmed, of Israeli soldiers, an end to the shelling of Israeli territory, an end to Israeli attacks and the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza.

...The G8 urged the UN Security Council to consider sending a monitoring force to Lebanon.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said: "We do not want to let terrorist forces and those who support them have the opportunity to create chaos in the Middle East ... We are convinced the Government of Lebanon must be given all support and that the relevant UN resolutions regarding the south of Lebanon must be implemented."

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19825948-31477,00.html

[JVS]

68. You don't think there are members of Hizbollah with Israeli...

citizen ship, or whose families come from the land that is now Israel?

[MADem]

93. Actually...not only NO, but HELL NO. Definitely NO. NO WAY.

You don't find ANY shi'as around Filistine way, or even Jordan, much, unless they're visiting the Holy Places or they are being suffered as a guest of King Abdullah. The filistines are sunni, ya see. Hizb'Allah are EXCLUSIVELY shi'a. They congregate around Iran, Iraq, and Syria, and have over the years slopped into Lebanon. But the classical Palestinians view the shi'a religious views as outright heresy--and they may be a ways from Meccah, but they are a hop, skip and a jump from Jerusalem.

They have about as much in common as fundamentalist Mormons and Episcopalians do....actually, even LESS.

You'd benefit from a primer on the factions, the area, the history.

[Paulie]

12. I think that was called the ALAMO...

but I could be wrong. History, rinse, repeat. Sigh...

[NoPasaran]

13. Of course they would

One of the responsibilities of a state is to not allow private armies to carry out attacks on other nations from its territory. Of course, most nations have found that having private armies on their territory is generally a bad idea. If the Minutemen somehow acquired Katyushas and started firing them over the border, I would expect our authorities to swiftly put an end to their attacks. Likewise if some Mexican (or Canadian) group started shelling our border cities. Of course, such a thing actually happened ninety years ago when Pancho Villa attacked the town of Columbus, New Mexico, and the US responded by sending Pershing's "Punitive Expedition" into Mexico in an attempt to capture him and in general force the Mexican government to crack down on banditry along the border.

[lastknowngood]

15. Well if we invaded Mexico and kidnapped some of their people

would they be justified?

[RB TexLa]

16. When did Lou Dobbs get rockets?

:shrug: I missed this?

[MADem]

18. Best line in this entire thread!!!!! BRAVO......NT

[WillyT]

23. ROFLMAO !!!

:bounce::yourock::bounce:

[Mr_Spock]

21. Kill them all

Is that the correct answer?

[wellst0nev0ter]

28. Yes, I'd Fully Support A Mexican Military Occupation Of My Country

</pro-Israel stance>

Seriously, a drawn-out military incursion is bad for both sides. They can either make a deal now or wait until hundreds more are dead. It's their decision.

[Spider Jerusalem]

30. Bad and in fact VERY STUPID analogy.

The appropriate answer is, no, the government of Mexico should go through diplomatic channels and request that US police agencies and military halt the criminal actions of the terrorists within their borders--which is appropriate conduct under international law; in the hypothetical situation presented above, and the REAL situation of Lebanon and Gaza vis a vis Israel, a military response against a non-state actor within the borders of a sovereign nation or entity without prior recourse to diplomacy represents an illegitimate use of force under international law. Such a response may be merited ONLY if recourse to diplomatic channels is rebuffed or fails.

[MADem]

36. Non state actor??? They may not be welcome, but they ARE part of the

government. They have seats in the legislature.

And the government was supposed to clear them out of the south, and substitute the Lebanese Army, yet they haven't done that.

They may be backed by a non-state actor, specifically, Iran, but the state is doing nothing to to rein them in. It's clearly because Hizb'Allah are a bunch of thugs, who will KILL people in the government for speaking out or demanding anything from them.

Kofi doesn't want to go in until they stop firing the rockets. All the Hizzies have to do is stop shooting the rockets, and Israel will stop bombing them. Of course, then there will be a hundred other delays...NATO is probably a better bet, frankly.

But the Hiz are enjoying the limelight, delighting in the distraction, earning their rials from Iran, even though Jordan, Egypt and EVEN Saudi Arabia have called for Hizb'Allah to cut the crap.

[Spider Jerusalem]

39. Even so...

diplomacy should have been attempted first; if nothing else, its failure or rejection by Palestine/Lebanon would have served to highlight the impotence and/or corruption of the Palestinian and Lebanese governments, and given greater justification to Israel's use of force.

It's an unfortunate situation all around: the Palestinian Authority and the Lebanese government can't rein in Hamas and Hezbollah themselves, because to do so would be to trigger an internal power struggle that would ultimately (probably) delegitimise their respective governments in the eyes of their own people. So they do nothing, and the kidnappings, bombings, etc, go on.

Israel, on the other hand, (especially from their perspective) MUST respond to acts of aggression and provocation at least in kind and if possible more severely, because not to do so would be seen as weakness, and a signal for the terrorists to redouble their efforts; they seek to impress upon the terrorists that any attack on Israeli soil or against Israeli citizens will be met with the harshest reprisals, which, unfortunately, only serve to heighten the unending cycle of violence.

[MADem]

43. To WHOM, though, do they appeal while rockets rain down?

Apparently Georgie wants them to keep up the good work, perhaps to make Iran spend some money and reveal their supply lines, otherwise he'd organize a NATO party to go in there and restore order. He's not helping stop this mess. Iran is overjoyed; they're stoking the flames. Jordan, Egypt, and the Saudis have wagged their finger at the Hiz and told them to stop, but they just laugh at them.

The UN won't do squat until the HIZ stop firing those rockets. They're useless.

It's simply a pity that some other charitable actor couldn't worm their way into the hearts and minds of the shi'a, who are the poorest of the lot in Lebanon. If the funding can be cut, and the charity substituted, the support for those whack bastards would dry up in a heartbeat.

But I don't blame Israel in this instance. I've had beefs with some of their shit before, but not this time.

[wtmusic]

81. So it's up to Hezbollah to end what Israel started?

Yes, there were kidnappings. Are massive airstrikes (which have killed over 300) appropriate retribution? Lots of talk about Hiz rockets, no mention of the airstrikes which are causing far more damage and death.

[MADem]

88. The airstrikes came AFTER the kidnappings and missile attacks

and the unprovoked slaughter of eight soldiers on the Israeli side of the border. The ones starting this shit up were NOT the Israelis, they were the shi'a thugs. But don't let FACTS or something as silly as the TRUTH get in the way of your cheerleading for these killers of American servicemembers in the hundreds, now....

Timeline: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2006_Israel-Lebanon_crisis

[wtmusic]

89. Fine, ignore the question

are massive airstrikes against the Lebanese populace appropriate retribution? :shrug:

[MADem]

90. NO, you pay attention to the truth, and stop trying to change the damn

subject. Your bloodthirsty heroes brought this shit down on the Lebanese people.

There would have BEEN no airstrikes had not the Hiz illegally crossed the Israeli border, MURDERED eight reservists, captured a couple of others, and then started firing rockets at HAIFA.

That's the timeline.

Why is that so hard for you to understand???

Go play somewhere else. You ignore facts, and you don't pay attention.

[wtmusic]

91. No need to get angry here

and I suspect it's because you're having a hard time answering my question.

I get the timeline. But by your argument, Saddam "brought this shit (the war in Iraq) down" on the Iraqi people.

It doesn't wash. Chronology doesn't right a wrong. Peace is the responsibility of the powerful.

[MADem]

92. Excuse the fuck out of me, but the first QUESTION in this thread came

from ME, and you chose to ignore it.

Take your chronology and stuff it. Had not the Hiz done what they did, none of this shit would be happening. Too hard for you to wrap you brain around????

Piss off.

[JackNewtown]

33. The key is gas stations, bridges, and milk factories,

Oh, and facial tissue. Mexico would have to wipe these things out in order to stop rocket launches, which use milk as fuel.

[wtmusic]

82. hehe

similar to the technology that Sudan was using to turn baby formula into anthrax :thumbsup:

[Solon]

34. We have killed unarmed Mexican citizens that cross the border...

while they are in violation of US law at the time, by our standards and Mexico's, instituting a "Death Penalty" on these people is unsupportable. So technically, they should have already invaded, a LONG TIME AGO.

[EFerrari]

41. Boo!

:rofl:

[Cybergata]

54. Oh, is this a discussion about the Vigilantes on the border!

Leave the Mexicans out of you arguments about the middle east, they are too busy trying to gain control of their destiny.


It seems like there has been lots of arguments back and forth, and I'm as puzzled by what is happening in the Middle East as I was before I began to read DU earlier this even. I'm just being very careful to avoid the Zionist who throws rocks at us hippies. Peace and love man. It is not just a saying, it is a way of life. I've never, or would I ever try to take revenge on someone who had done harm to me or those I love. Revenge and hatred are balls on chains we drag around with us. They slow us down and eat at our souls.

[JVS]

67. I cannot for the life of me imagine a group which denies Mexico's right...

to exist.

[RB TexLa]

78. Spain?

[Marie26]

80. Nah. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

87. Actually, Mexico did face just that..minus the rockets.

In the Mexican American war. A radical, certainly racist, anti-Mexico group did attack Mexico. They were called Texans.