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no_to_war_economy Donating Member (962 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:46 AM
Original message
Hillary, shut the fuck up

"I want us here in New York to imagine if extremist terrorists were launching rocket attacks across the Mexican or Canadian border, would we stand by or would we defend America against these attacks from extremists?" said Clinton, D-N.Y. "We will stand with Israel because Israel is standing up for American values as well as Israeli ones."

she is such a load

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_Pro_Israe...
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. American and Israeli values: "Kill'em all"
marvelous. :eyes: :puke:

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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
27. we don't have any say in this??
who will fight in these wars, I sick of them all, Death and Destruction, we are all victims under this regime.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
28. Oh Nonsense
Israel could have "killed 'em all" a long time ago - and unlike Dear Leader's Iraq insanity, Israel had a very good excuse to. But they didn't. And they aren't.

Look, I believe that Hillary is an evil Republican shill and her only aims in life are to be President and destroy the Middle Class. But she happens to be correct on this - even a stopped clocked is correct twice a day.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. with all due respect, we'll have to agree to disagree on this
;-)
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. The "kill em all" talk in your post is more "evil Republican shill" than
anything I have read here on DU today. The notion that "killing them all" is even an option really flies in the face of Progressivism.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. I Was Quoting The Parent Post! [eom]
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. Have you noticed that from yesterday morning there appears to be an influx
a crop posters with low numbers who immediately shoot down any discussions of Israel in this mess in similar terms or start screaming anti-semitism? Just sayin'.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #40
47. I Noticed That As Well
some could be lurkers who are very pro-Israeli. But me thinks it is interesting as well.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. What exactly do you mean by killed them all?
All Palestinians, or All Lebanese, or just All Arabs in general?
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #36
49. It means anyone who stands in the way of PaxAmericana
Edited on Tue Jul-18-06 09:42 AM by ixion
which, according to BushCo, is a vast majority of the ME.

This sentiment is behind Bolton claiming a moral difference between Israel bombing Lebanon, and Hezbollah kidnapping two Israeli soldiers.
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Pawel K Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #28
77. So lebanon is guilty by association
If Hillary had said the following it would be correct:

I want us here in New Mexico to imagine if extremist mexican drug lords were kidnapping americans across the Mexican or Canadian border, would we stand by or would we defend America against these attacks from extremists?" said Clinton, D-N.Y. "We will stand with Israel because Israel is standing up for American values as well as Israeli ones."

Lebanon civilians that were targeted in this have no control over these terrorists much in the same way the mexican government doesn't have control over those crazy ass drug dealers crossing our borders everyday and committing terrible crimes here.

And don't you forget, Israel is the one that escalated this to this point.

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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #77
84. Evidence Please
Do you have any evidence that Lebanese civilians were targeted?
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Pawel K Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #84
102. The fact I mispoke excuses the fact that thousands of civillians will die
Edited on Tue Jul-18-06 02:39 PM by Pawel K
and almost no hezbollah militants will be killed?

So no, I don't have any evidance about this yet, but you are sounding like the apologists for the Bush administration after the Iraq war begun. Do you remeber freepers asking for evidance that Al Jazeera was targeted? Everyone knew this was the case, there was just no way to prove it. Years later the evidance did surface and the freeper argument changed to why they should have been targeted.

Also, don't get me wrong. I certainly don't support hezbollah and I don't support lebanon sounding like they support what hezbollah is doing. However, that doesn't excuse the actions of Israel and the fact that thousands will die that had nothing to do with this. 99% of the people in lebanon want to live regular lives, they didn't ask for any of this shit. Yet it is really easy for you to sit there safely behind your monitor or tv screen and justify the killing of these civillians. I would love to hear how you would feel if it was your apartment building with 200 other families being bombed because israel says hezbollah MIGHT be in there.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. Please Be Careful
Please understand that targeting civillians is a much, much different thing than targeting people who are actively trying to destroy you, and have called for the destruction of all people of your religion or ethnicity. Be careful of your language.

Civilian casualties are a tragedy - but it's not at all clear that the alternative is less tragic.

Look, these are people who have quite literally called for the destruction of Israel and the killing of all Jews. It would be better to stop these folks by peaceful means - but there comes a time when the situation must be addressed by force.
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Pawel K Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. So you support the bombing of Mexico for what is happening on the border?
I mean its the exact same thing. Lebanon can not control hezbollah, Israel has more control over them. What is happening today is exactly what hezbollah wanted, why do you think they did what they did at that exact time.


Terrorism must be stopped, but the logic you are using is no different than the logic used by the neocons in the lead up to the Iraq war. Lebanon had nothing to do with this, the people of lebanon had nothing to do with this, yet they are the ones suffering because of this. You can't possibly support this?
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. Lobbing Missiles, Suicide Bombings = Illegal Immigration
So you're claiming that missiles and suicide bombings are the same as illegal immigration? I think that they're a lot different. No, I would not bomb Mexico because of illegal immigration.
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Pawel K Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. Who said anything about illegal immigration
rereading my original post I should have been more clear; sorry about that, but if you read the post before that you would know what I was talking about.

I am talking about the fact that daily drug lords from Mexico cross over to this country and commit crimes from kidnapping, murder, theft, assult, and more. Mexico has no control over this, we have no control over this. This is the exact same thing that is happening there. Yet, over there attacking the country that has nothing to do with this is somehow justified in your opinion. I fail to see how members of this board, who have protested so strongly against these kinds of attacks (in Iraq for example) could now support such a thing.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. You Have A Point. But.
In the case of Mexico, these are individuals crossing the border to commit crimes in the US. I'm not sure to what extent the Mexican's can be held accountable.

There is some comparability in the case of suicide bombers - however, I believe that the bombers have stockpiles of explosives in Lebanon.

However, rockets being launched from Lebanese territory are a Lebanese problem - particularly given the Lebanese coddling of Hezbollah, who have called for the destruction of Israel and the killing of all the Jews on Earth.
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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
44. So were the US extremists terrorists when they took land from my people
and from Mexico. So then, the Native Americans and Mexicans were justified in their actions of self-defense and not "heathens" as portrayed in American history books? Thank you Miss Hillary!
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hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. Whoa, Hill ...
:puke: :wtf: :puke: :spank: :wtf: :puke:
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latebloomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
3. Neocon values
She's a wolf in sheep's clothing-- but the wool is wearing very thin.
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DUHandle Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. Extremeist terrorists, does she mean there are
non extrmemist terrorists?

WTF kinda fear mongering is this?
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twiterpatted Donating Member (216 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
5. she is a politician, and she is triangulating, go on girl, gohead, go on!
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
66. Remember Hillary started out as a
Goldwater girl!!!
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
6. I don't think she should shut up
I want her to keep expressing her views as she is an elected representative. Every time she does it convinces me that she will not have my vote for national office.
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
7. She thinks she knows what she's doing.
Morphing into one of them. She'll probably pick Lieberman as a running mate.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
8. Well, with the GOP in charge, we'd invade Jamaica in retaliation.
Ya mon, we gwon smoke out da evil doers, mon! Iree, iree!
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long_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
48. LOL.
funny, sad, and true.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #8
81. And don't we know it
:D
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Ioo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
9. I would not vote for Joe, I will not vote for Hillary. She is a Sheep
I am sorry that so many Dems are going to fall for this crap, she only cares about her, that is it!

I will not vote in the Pres 08 if she is my option.
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MysteryToMyself Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
10. Hillary Who?
I don't know her.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
12. she is a warmonger
send chelsea to Iraq hil!
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
13. recommended.
:thumbsup:
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Seconded.
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
14. OTOH, Tasini says......
>>>http://www.tasinifornewyork.org/ >>>>

Just as an historical, but not insignificant note: they are competing for "RFK's (senate) seat".
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. hillary is one of them.
tasini is one of us.

vote tasini. i will.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
16. She is becoming an irrational extremist!
Against the billions of peace-loving people of the world.

Most people don't want innocent civilians killed - but our neocons and Democratic senators do and go out of their way to justify it, especially the ones who owe their seats to AIPAC.
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
18. And I thought she'd lost my vote when she backed the "war"
Where is the STATESMANSHIP, the DIPLOMACY, the Quest by higher beings for PEACE and HARMONY in the Whole goddam World?

She is now a purveyor of the Bush Doctrine Itself, and I will NEVER vote for her, nor anyone else who refuses to stand up for a reasonable response to Terrorism.

With the technology, the training, the MORALITY of a Country like ours who USED TO END WARS, they cannot tell me that we don't have a Prime Force that can locate and KILL any person acting as a TERRORIST, or mortally CRIPPLE any group on DEMAND, even in Secret, an Appropriate Police action to protect our citzens and the WORLD itself.

I've been in the military, have known some real bad asses who can take anyone they want to out with TWO FINGERS, and instead we are showered with INSANE speeches for focus groups, hawked for effect by a Media that sells wars and KILLS OUR COUNTRYMEN and WOMEN FOR RATINGS.

No longer. If you do not preach PEACE and appropriate responses then you will NOT get my vote, nor the vote of anyone I can convince to NOT vote for HATE and Death and destruction as a basis for The American Dream.

I'm not saying that we should not have a strong defense, or that we should not let others who would harm us know in no uncertain terms that where they stand will be turned into GLASS if they even THINK about harming another person, but now we seem to have entered another dimension, a level of Hell that is so close to the edge of God Turning his Face from us, that we may never be able to turn back to peace - but if we ever needed to sit down and re-examine our parameters, there would not be a better time.

Remember when Intelligent people Protected us, those that didn't run around like Chicken Little screaming that we were all going to DIE or that WE needed to Send EVERYONE to Hell that disagreed with us? Those who, like a strong father in our homes, made us feel safe and secure with their Confidence, Intelligence and Control of their Impulses?

I want THAT and MY COUNTRY BACK.

And I refuse anything less. I want a Dept of PEACE created NOW. And I want those who are War Mongers to STOP, and or Shut Up. NOW.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
19. We have no need for you Hillary






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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. "We have no need for you Hillary"
You don't speak for me, so stop assuming

that you can
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. great pics of Bush and Hillary!!
two peas in a pod! war mongering assholes...
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #29
94. WAR MONGERING ASSHOLES WITH THEIR GOOD FRIEND MYERS
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
20. The neocon infiltration of the Democratic Party is on schedule.
Diebold will select her as our prez candidate, she will 'win' the '08 election & then the media, the corporations & those in power will tell us to shut the fuck up about election fraud.
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earthside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
21. Fox News Owner Fundraiser
Democracy Now! this morning said that Hillary made these remarks after she attended a fundraiser for her hosted by Fox 'News" owner Rupert Murdoch.

What the hell is going on?

Does everyone see how corrupt our political system has become -- for Dems and Repubs? The lust for campaign money is so great that even Dems must completely prostitute thmeselves for cash, cash, cash.

We absolutely need public finance of elections! We absolutely need Instant Runoff Voting!

Finally, to address Hillary's comment that "... imagine if extremist terrorists were launching rocket attacks across the Mexican or Canadian border, would we stand by or would we defend America against these attacks from extremists?"

Would it be just to bomb the Mexico City International airport or the international shipping port at Vancouver if a group extreme terrorists did launch a few rockets across the border at Larado or Bismarck? Would it be okay for the U.S. to bomb every major bridge in Mexico or Canada? Would it be fine by Hillary if we targeted civilans in vans fleeing the U.S. bombing?

This extreme retaliation, vengence and terrorism from ten thousand feet from military jets is not acceptable ... and it is very disheartening to see people like Hillary rushing to justify this violence for the sake of the Jewish vote and pro-Israel campaign contributions here in Bush's America.
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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #21
30. David Swanson's article on that
Rupert Murdoch Hosted Hillary Fundraiser
On Monday, July 17, 2006, at Fox News headquarters in New York City, Rupert Murdoch hosted a fundraiser breakfast for Hillary Clinton. Then he rushed off to a fundraiser lunch for John McCain, and Hillary rushed off to announce her unqualified support for Israel's and Bush's war policies.

Hillarupert Murdoclinton strikes some people as an unusual combination. I'm sure someone could create a funny cartoon out of that name and a merger of their two smirking masks.

Murdoch's interest is in money, however, and not necessarily in an Oil Empire or a Second Coming – unless some really cool weapon or a blue dress is involved. He likes laws that allow monopolization of media outlets, and he likes high ratings. Hillary's husband gave us the Telecom Act that drove monopolization forward. And nothing would create better ratings for Fox than lots of Hillary hating and Hillary scandals with her as the Democratic nominee for president.

The right-wingers don't seem to quite understand this profit motive when they suggest that Murdoch has sold out because he believes Hillary will win the White House. Such an idea overlooks the power Murdoch and other media moguls have to determine who ends up in the White House, overlooks Murdoch's lunch event for McCain, overlooks the likelihood that the Republicans will fix the election if need be, and overlooks the obvious inability of Hillary to win – even with a fair vote count. She's despised by the left and hated by the right, and reporters find her unpleasant. She doesn't have a snowball's chance in DC in August of winning the general election, but she does have an excellent chance of winning the Democratic Primary.

more
http://www.democrats.com/node/9490
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unlawflcombatnt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
111. Lovely
Rupert Murdoch donations should be enough to disqualify any Democrat from consideration as the Democratic party's presidential candidate.

Do you have any direct links to this article?
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
22. Completely agree with her statement...
I think Hillary is right on the mark. I've become more and more impressed with her over the years.

I hope Israel keeps this up until Hizbullah is militarily degraded enough that either the Lebanese army can take over on the Lebanese/Israeli border - or a significant, combat capable, UN force can come in and take over.

The more damage Israel does to Hizbullah, the better for everyone but Islamic Extremists.

Right on Hillary!
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #22
39.  Can't Israel do better than indiscriminate bombing of innocents?
Sure they can!

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springhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #22
45. How many civilian casualties.........
would be too many for you in your quest to rid them of Hezbollah? 1,000, 2,000, 10,000? Would it be okay to have our cities bombed in a quest to get rid of our criminal, George Bush and his associates? I can't think of a more hateful, spiteful corrupt administration than our own. Yes, if it were our own children, property, houses being obliterated it would be different. Why can't you for just one second try and place yourselves in the position of others? I guess since this country has not seen war on it's own shores for quite some time, we, as a country, can't imagine the horrors.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #45
61. if somebody can support Hillary after all that has gone down,
Edited on Tue Jul-18-06 09:58 AM by jonnyblitz
then you are wasting your time. they are a lost cause and what you wrote won't matter.
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earthside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
63. Ghoulish
... because now we know it is okay to kill and mutilate Lebanese children ... since their lives are worth a whole lot less than the lives of Israeli children.

According to 'our' ambassador to the UN: Bolton: Lebanon Civilian Deaths Morally Not Same as Terror Victims

Somehow, I don't see the difference between these Lebanese children blown-up by an Israeli bomb and any other children in the rest of the world.

Hillary and the Bush regime and the 'state' of Israel have become ghoulish in their rationalization of death and war.

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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #63
74. Why doesn't everyone see that Lebanese children, Palestinian children
are as precious as US or Israeli children?

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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
23. no wonder the Islamic people are so pissed with our siding in with
Israel all the time, with comments like that. "Standing up for American values" what a crock.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
25. "Israel is standing up for American values." Which values?
Which "American values" are those? Wars of aggression? Killing of civilians? Ignoring international laws? Bullying? Assasination? Subversion of Democracy?

She might be on to something there.

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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
26. I saw the clip for the first time this am on Dem. Now:
the worst part was her voice and face: she was positively screaming for Syrian blood.

I dislike her more every day.

Oh, yes, then Rupert dined and wined her at a fundraiser after she waved the bloody tallis...
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
31. Hillary has "Jumped the Shark."
Warmongering is NOT what we are supposed to be about.

Hopefully this will be the start of her quick decline. Another "Holy Joe" we don't need.
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Alpharetta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
34. She is an expert in triangulation

"Triangulation" was a hallmark of the Clinton presidency. You don't stand up for what you believe. You try to hit the sweet spot of public opinion on an issue.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #34
64. No, triangulation is the art of compromise.
Edited on Tue Jul-18-06 10:15 AM by NCevilDUer
You have a point, they have a point, so you find a third point (that's where triangulation comes in) between the two that both can live with. Bill was an expert at it. Hillary was on the sidelines, and never quite got the idea.

She is not triangulating. Coompromise is not in her nature. She is staking out her position; she'll have to live with the consequences -- the loss of all progressive dems.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
35. America doesn't have much use for politicians who are pro-Hezbollah.
New Yorkers may be especially sensitive to international terrorism. Hillary fells a need to address their concerns.

That's one of the reasons New Yorkers will send her back to the senate for a second term.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
38. I couldn't agree more.
Israel is standing for American values? Huh? Since when?
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
41. So I guess you'd rather see Israel or America simply succumb to terrorists
than see someone like Hillary take a tough stance against them.

In case anyone forgot, Israel is our ally. Just like us, they're not perfect, but they're way more of our friend than Hezbollah.

If any other Democrat said this about standing with Israel, this forum would've been fine with it, but since it's Hillary, she should STFU.

What are the stances on this from some of the other high profile Democrats? Have any of them said we SHOULDN'T stand by Israel?
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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #41
46. Oh, please stop this re-framing and diverting. nt
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #46
50. Nothing was reframed. Read the quote in the OP & choose your stance. nt
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #41
82. Israel is our ally because we pay out the nose for their security...
..if we turned the faucets of US taxpayers dollars off they'd become the bestest buddies with Russia and China before the dust cleared....
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #41
106. With friends like Israel...
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
42. Give peace a chance Hillary!
Stop acting like a neocon.


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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
43. Hilliary is only doing what ALL POLITICIANS DO.....
playing to her constituents. Wish she would tone down the drama in her speech.
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springhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #43
52. Either she really believes it.........
which scares the hell out of me or she doesn't really and she is enabling this adminsitration and Israel to continue down a path of violence. I totally believe that she would be behind any war Bush got us into. I am becoming very disheartened by the violence that some supporters of Israel are cheering on. There have benn quite a few posts about Hezbollah not being condemned. While there have been posts condemning Israels violent response, I have not read anyone who is cheering Hezbollah on to commit more atrocities. However, the same cannot be said for some supporting Israel.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #52
56. Hilliary would make a good 'War Hawk' without a doubt......
and ALL SIDES in this new ME conflict are guilty of the overdone destruction; no one is without fault.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
51. Perhaps she should take some lessons in integrity from Sen. Feingold
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #51
65. Feingold defends Israel's attack response (on FreepRepublic)

I read his statement earlier and googled it. The freepers love it.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1666442/posts
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
53. She is in the mainstream of Democratic Senators saying that.
If you slap her, slap Feingold, Kennedy and others who said the same thing.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #53
67. Slap! Slap! Slap!
The Senate is out of touch with most of the world which prefers peace.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
54. Senator Clinton
takes enough money from AIPAC that she can't say "no" to them.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
55. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #55
60. How soon we forget....good point! nt
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #55
69. The US paid for the weapons Israel is using to kill innocent people
The US backs this assault on innocent people. There is no spin in the world that changes that fact.
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
57. Hillary........just another Republican lite
Kill. kill, kill........that will solve all problems, that way their actions in Washington DC of doing nothing gets less attention.

These politicians a pathetic bunch.
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MamaBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #57
85. Actually, it's more like sell, sell, sell
The DINOs and the Republicans represent corporations, not citizens, and their goal is to sell goods and services and accumulate wealth and the power that goes with it.

Hillary and the rest could care less about the citizens they were elected to represent.

She has a challenger in the NY senate primary: Jonathan Tasini. He is supported by many of us.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
58. If Israeli values are to kill more of the :enemy".....
than the "enemy" can kill of yours, yeah, it's the same as American values! The U.S. didn't bomb the pants off Iran when they took American hostages.....what's the difference here? ENOUGH.

It seems as if Hillary and * have something very much in common this week: Neither was aware when to keep their mouths shut.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
59. I love this kind of pantload postering...
especially when we have good relations with our neighbors.
Nothing but rhetoric.

these kinds of arguments crack me up.

Hillary is trying so hard. but that's just it, she's trying now, and nothing she does looks natural. If she wants to continue to use the rights talking points, she can knock herself out, but she's not winning any Democratic votes with that kind of bullshit.

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Palladin Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
62. Some Democrat of national stature
ought to denounce her. Now, who would that be? Not even Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson dare cross the folks behind her. Maybe Cynthia McKinney. She's got some proven courage, and she's already taken on the Lobby and beat 'em.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #62
71. Ha! Barely an hour into today's McKinney-Johnson election
Edited on Tue Jul-18-06 10:22 AM by katinmn
the votes cast on Deibold machines were flipping to Johnson. Will the Dems stand up for her?

add link:http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=441140&mesg_id=441140
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
68. Why does she need to make a statement at all?
She's remained silent about so many other things that were important. The DSM, for example.

I don't think anyone was crying out for this statement. Why did she make it?

And such a simple-minded, oversimplified and misleading statement at that.

Bill must have smacked his forehead when he heard that.
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
70. Feingold, shut the fuck up as well....
he supports Israel too.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #70
73. Um, Feingold is a Jew.
While support for Israel among American Jews isn't entirely monolithic, it makes sense given Feingold's ethnicity/religion that he would argue in favor of Israel's right to defend itself. No?
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. i happen to agree with both him and Hillary.
just funny to see the bashing find a new bone to latch on.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #76
83. I disagree with them both.
But my experience is that otherwise perfectly reasonable, rational people can have what I think are irrational views when it comes to the infallibility of Israel. Personally, I think the UN made a big mistake in locating the Jewish homeland in a place that was already densely populated. Baja California would've been a much better choice.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #73
80. There are many Jews against the occupation of Palestine
and Israel's war-mongering. He could join with those who are for a just peace.

For some reason the Israelis and American Jews who oppose aggression just don't get the press. They are arrested for protesting. A recent protest in Isreal drew 2000 protestors and many were hauled away and handcuffed.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #80
86. Did I not just say "support for Israel among American Jews isn't entirely
monolithic?" And if you oppose the occupation of Palestine, does that mean you oppose the existence of Israel as a Jewish state?
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #86
88. Of course not. But that is the leap that people use to stop discussion.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. Well, that's what the Palestinians mean when they refer to the occupation
of Palestine. The whole damn thing. And of course they have a valid point. Or did, back in 1948.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. Are you a spokesperson for Palestine? Great. About time someone did!
http://www.jatonyc.org /
Actually, lots of Jews and Palestinans are working for peaceful coexistance but they are shouted down by the right-wingers.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #90
96. I wish the Palestinians had more effective spokespersons,
because I think they've gotten stuck with one of the shittiest deals in human history, and their bug-eyed leadership hasn't helped them a whole lot. But I wouldn't want the job. Peaceful coexistence is obviously the only sane solution at this point, yes.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #70
87. The difference is the way both of them said it.
Feingold said it with a reasoned tone, acknowledging people disagree.

Hillary said it with a violent tone, saying that AMERICANS agrees with her. (even though that is not true)
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #70
91. Link please. All I've seen so far is this:
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=468669

Where he comments that the Iraq situation has led to the current situation.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
72. Hillary, have Israel extradite Abramoff's partners in crime and I'll
reconsider my position.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
75. "PNAC, its not just for republicans, anymore"
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #75
78. Russ Feingold as well? Whoa....
the conspiracy runs deep.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #78
93. I'm all out of tinfoil
if you have read my posts over the last few years.

I just watch what happens. I don't have any allegiance to a land being holy or not holy, as I'm an atheist. I just don't want all the soothsayers with missiles and bombs using their spaghetti monster in the sky to blow my shit up.

That is all
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #75
79. LOL!!!
:rofl:

I suppose it would be even funnier if she wasn't the one being shoved down our throats by the Corporate Presstitutes as the "front-runner" in '08....
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
92. I am so done with her.
Edited on Tue Jul-18-06 11:35 AM by WakingLife
It isn't just this. If it was I could maybe overlook it but I am so at odds with her on every issue that there is absolutely no way I can ever vote for her. Not in a primary, not in a general election.

Edit: I was just listening to the Left, Right & Center podcast from Friday. Even the freakin' conservative thinks Israel has gone too far but not Hillary!

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
95. HOW MANY MORE HILLARY, HOW MANY MORE?
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/seemslikeadre...

2506 "I'm waiting to hear the words 'I was wrong' Dick Morris, 4/9/03
Tue Jun 20th 2006, 03:59 PM
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/seemslikeadre...


"Tommy Franks and the coalition forces have demonstrated the old axiom
that boldness on the battlefield produces swift and relatively
bloodless victory. The three-week swing through Iraq has utterly
shattered skeptics' complaints." (Fox News Channel's Tony Snow,
4/27/03)



"The only people who think this wasn't a victory are Upper Westside
liberals, and a few people here in Washington." (Charles Krauthammer,
Inside Washington, WUSA-TV, 4/19/03)



"I will bet you the best dinner in the gaslight district of San Diego
that military action will not last more than a week. Are you willing to
take that wager?" (Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly, 1/29/03)



"What's he going to talk about a year from now, the fact that the war
went too well and it's over? I mean, don't these things sort of lose
their--Isn't there a fresh date on some of these debate points?"
(MSNBC's Chris Matthews, speaking about Howard Dean--4/9/03)



"It is amazing how thorough the victory in Iraq really was in the
broadest context..... And the silence, I think, is that it's clear that
nobody can do anything about it. There isn't anybody who can stop him.
The Democrats can't oppose--cannot oppose him politically."
(Washington Post reporter Jeff Birnbaum-- Fox News Channel, 5/2/03)



"Now that the war in Iraq is all but over, should the people in
Hollywood who opposed the president admit they were wrong?"
(Fox News Channel's Alan Colmes, 4/25/03)



"I'm waiting to hear the words 'I was wrong' from some of the world's
most elite journalists, politicians and Hollywood types.... I just
wonder, who's going to be the first elitist to show the character to
say: 'Hey, America, guess what? I was wrong'? Maybe the White House
will get an apology, first, from the New York Times' Maureen Dowd. Now,
Ms. Dowd mocked the morality of this war....

"Do you all remember Scott Ritter, you know, the former chief U.N.
weapons inspector who played chief stooge for Saddam Hussein? Well, Mr.
Ritter actually told a French radio network that -- quote, "The United
States is going to leave Baghdad with its tail between its legs,
defeated." Sorry, Scott. I think you've been chasing the wrong tail,
again.

"Over the next couple of weeks when we find the chemical weapons this
guy was amassing, the fact that this war was attacked by the left and
so the right was so vindicated, I think, really means that the left is
going to have to hang its head for three or four more years."
(Fox News Channel's Dick Morris, 4/9/03)



"This has been a tough war for commentators on the American left. To
hope for defeat meant cheering for Saddam Hussein. To hope for victory
meant cheering for President Bush. The toppling of Mr. Hussein, or at
least a statue of him, has made their arguments even harder to defend.
Liberal writers for ideologically driven magazines like The Nation and
for less overtly political ones like The New Yorker did not predict a
defeat, but the terrible consequences many warned of have not happened.
Now liberal commentators must address the victory at hand and confront
an ascendant conservative juggernaut that asserts United States might
can set the world right."
(New York Times reporter David Carr, 4/16/03)



"Well, the hot story of the week is victory.... The Tommy Franks-Don
Rumsfeld battle plan, war plan, worked brilliantly, a three-week war
with mercifully few American deaths or Iraqi civilian deaths.... There
is a lot of work yet to do, but all the naysayers have been humiliated
so far.... The final word on this is, hooray."
(Fox News Channel's Morton Kondracke, 4/12/03)



"Shouldn't the prime minister and all of us who thought the
war was hasty and dangerous and wrongheaded admit that we were wrong? I
mean, with the pictures of those Iraqis dancing in the streets, hauling
down statues of Saddam Hussein and gushing their thanks to the
Americans, isn't it clear that President Bush and Britain's Tony Blair
were right all along? If we believe it's a good thing that Hussein's
regime has been dismantled, aren't we hypocritical not to acknowledge
Bush's superior judgment?... Why can't those of us who thought the war
was a bad idea (or, at any rate, a premature one) let it go now and
just join in celebrating the victory wrought by our magnificent
military forces?"
(Washington Post's William Raspberry, 4/14/03)



"This will be no war -- there will be a fairly brief and ruthless
military intervention.... The president will give an order. attack] will be rapid, accurate and dazzling.... It will be greeted by
the majority of the Iraqi people as an emancipation. And I say, bring
it on."
(Christopher Hitchens, in a 1/28/03 debate-- cited in the Observer,
3/30/03)



"Speaking to the U.N. Security Council last week, Secretary of State
Colin Powell made so strong a case that Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein
is in material breach of U.N. resolutions that only the duped, the dumb
and the desperate could ignore it."
(Cal Thomas, syndicated column, 2/12/03)




Until the philosophy,
Which holds one race superior
And another inferior,
Is finally and permanently
Discredited and abandoned,
Everywhere is war.

WAR

Until there is no longer first class
Or second class citizens of any nation.
Until the color of a man's skin,
Is of no more significance than
The color of his eyes,
I've got to say "war".

WAR

That until the basic human rights,
Are equally guaranteed to all,
Without regard to race,
I'll say "war"

Until that day the dream of lasting peace,
World-citizenship and the rule of
International morality will remain
Just a fleeting illusion to be pursued,
But never obtained.
And everywhere is war.

Until the ignoble and unhappy regime
Which holds all of us through,
Child-abuse, yeah, child-abuse yeah,
Sub-human bondage has been toppled,
Utterly destroyed,
Everywhere is war.

War in the east,
War in the west,
War up north,
War down south,
There is war,
And the rumors of war.

Until that day,
the african continent will know no peace
There is no continent,
Which will know peace.

Children, children.

Fight!

We find it necessary.
We know we will win.
We have confidence in the victory
Of good over evil
Of good over evil

Fight the real enemy!

Bob Marley





WHEN A SOLDIER MAKES IT HOME

Halfway around the world tonight
In a strange and foreign land
A soldier packs his memories
As he leaves Afghanistan
And back home they don't know too much
There's just no way to tell
I guess you had to be there
For to know that war was hell

And there won't be any victory parades
For those that's coming back
They'll fly them in at midnight
And unload the body sacks
And the living will be walking down
A long and lonely road
Because nobody seems to care these days
When a soldier makes it home

They'll say it wasn't easy
Just another job well done
As the government in Kabul falls
To the sounds of rebel guns
And the faces of the comrades
Being blown out of the sky
Leaves you bitter with the feeling
That they didn't have to die

Halfway around the world tonight
In a strange and foreign land
A soldier unpacks memories
That he saved from Vietnam
Back home they didn't know too much
There was just no way to tell
I guess you had to be there
For to know that war was hell

And there wasn't any big parades
For those that made it back
They flew them in at midnight
And unloaded all the sacks
And the living were left walking down
A long and lonely road
Because nobody seemed to care back then
When a soldier made it home

The night is coming quickly
And the stars are on their way
As I stare into the evening
Looking for the words to say
That I saw the lonely soldier
Just a boy that's far from home
And I saw that I was just like him
While upon this earth I roam

And there may not be any big parades
If I ever make it back
As I come home under cover
Through a world that can't keep track
Of the heroes who have fallen
Let alone the ones who won't
Which is why nobody seems to care
When a soldier makes it home

-Arlo Guthrie


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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
97. The left coast answers Hillary
With daily news of more civilians being hurt and killed, we need you now more than ever! JOIN JEWISH VOICE FOR PEACE, JEWS FOR A FREE PALESTINE,
AND BREAK THE SILENCE for a Jewish-led rally to
PROTEST ISRAEL'S ONGOING ATTACK ON GAZA
Monday, July 17, at noon
Israeli Consulate
456 Montgomery (cross street Sacramento, near Montgomery BART station), in San Francisco

Various groups have been organizing protests at the Israeli Consulate, but this one is led by a coalition of Jewish organizations to make the point that it's NOT a Jewish value to terrorize an entire people!

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_659....
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
98. Please let Gore run
Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run
Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run Please let Gore run
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. Has Gore said anything to make you think he disagrees w/Hillary on this?
If so, please inform us!

What is Al Gore's view of the current mid-East crisis? Does he agree or disagree with what Senator Clinton said about Israel's right to defend itself in the manner it is.
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. No, I don't
My point being, I've had enough of her.
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
101. It's Not Reasonable At All
To expect US taxpayers to unconditionally give Isreal all this money forever and have no say in how that country "defends" itself even if it plunges us into another World War?

If we didn't fund so much of it, it wouldn't bug me so bad that nobody will criticize these obvious heavy-handed bombing and destruction binges. Let them use their own money at least! Why is Isreal above criticism? I would criticize the US if they reacted in this same way.
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CuteNFuzzy Donating Member (444 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
103. my sentiments exactly on this issue
Defending America and American values does not include murdering fleeing refugees and targeting civilian neighborhoods
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MODemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
105. This subject line would have been prohibited at one time
I've never seen such hatred on this forum. :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
112. If the US Green Party kidnapped a Canadian, would Canada be entitled
to bomb us to rubble?
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-18-06 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
113. Locking.
This is flamebait.

Fenris

GD Moderator
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