My patriotism is being questioned...Please help!

[cry baby]

I need the Mark Twain (I think) quote that says something like "Tyranny will come in the guise of a cross draped in a flag" or something like that. Someone here on DU has it as a sig line.

I am in a red state and have been trying to defend the Dixie Chicks and their right to speak out. I am severely outnumbered.

[niyad]

1. the sinclair lewis quote?

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

[cry baby]

3. That is it!!!! Thank you...

I'm off to defend myself!

[niyad]

5. "dissent is the highest form of patriotism"-- thomas jefferson, I believe.

[cry baby]

21. I'm feeling so much more positive with you guys with me.

I love TJs quotes, too.

[Roark]

51. Too bad that one isn't his....

http://www.monticello.org/library/reference/quotes.html

Unconfirmed and Incorrectly Attributed Quotes

There are a number of quotes that we do not find in Thomas Jefferson's correspondence or other writings; in such cases, Jefferson should not be cited as the source. Among the most common of these spurious Jefferson quotes are:

* "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."
* "We should build an aristocracy of achievement based on a democracy of opportunity."
* "An informed citizenry is the bulwark of a democracy."
* "Information is the currency of democracy."
* "A nation is as good as its values."
* There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people."
* "When the government fears the people, there is liberty; When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."
* "I have nothing but contempt for anyone who can spell a word only one way."
* "I am a big believer in luck. The harder I work, the more I have."

In other cases, quotes are often attributed to Jefferson but were actually said by others:

* "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." (John Philpot Curran)
* "Those who sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither." (Benjamin Franklin)
* "That government is best which governs least." (Henry David Thoreau)
* "I am a revolutionary so my son can be a farmer so his son can be a poet." (John Adams)

[cry baby]

53. OK, I won't credit that one to TJ, but you have mentioned other

excellent quotes that I will use, especially the Ben Franklinone and the John Adams one. Those are particularly relevent to my discussion with this freep.

Thank you so much!! And Welcome to DU!:hi:

[DrRang]

2. I remember it as "When fascism comes to America, it will be

wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Not sure who said it, Sinclair Lewis comes to mind.

[cry baby]

4. Thank you...that is the one!

[rucky]

6. Try my bumper sticker:

Blind Faith in Bad Leadership is Not Patriotism!

[cry baby]

20. I will certainly use that! nt

[misternormal]

7. I kinda like the quotes I found ... n/t

[cry baby]

22. These make me wish I could find the Hermann Goering quote

about how they could pull the rug over the public's eyes by making them scared of an enemy. I wish I could find that one.

[baldguy]

36. "Why, of course, the people don't want war,"

"Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm

[cry baby]

52. yup! That is the scariest quote I've ever read

knowing our situation today. I am not kidding, it scares the sh*t out of me.

[Swamp Rat]

8. "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson

http://www.samueljohnson.com/refuge.html

[demosincebirth]

14. Thats my sig.

[cry baby]

23. This one is probably next on the list that I will use.

:hug:

[niyad]

9. "patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrles"

QUOTATION: Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.


ATTRIBUTION: SAMUEL JOHNSON.—James Boswell, Life of Johnson, entry for Friday, April 7, 1775, p. 615 (1970).

[Monkeyman]

10. Tell them men and women have died to protect freedom of speach

Tell them take a trip to the Wall or the moving Wall see what real people died to protect.You can also say are you one of those who called them and said I will kill your children

[cry baby]

24. I read one of your posts earlier today. Thank you for your service.

and the advice on how to handle these keyboard bullies.

[Monkeyman]

41. Thanks but in this we fight as one

These people who support Bush with hate have got to be stopped

[niyad]

11. Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the

Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official...

~Theodore Roosevelt

great anti-war site:

http://antiwar.com/quotes.php

[bdamomma]

46. don't you wish if you kept on screaming this out, those who

don't believe in the Constitution or dissent will just shrivel up and go away. We are dealing with some sick people.

[onecent]

12. Bless you Cry Baby, I, too, am a BIG BELIEVER in

the right to free speech. If we don't have that....we HAVE NOTHING.

I AM also one who was OUTRAGED by the country stations trashing the Dixie Chicks CD's.....and haven't listened to our KC country station since (used to be 61 country, now 106.5 fm).

When I see the media twisting everyone's minds...and the apathy of the masses....I just want to cry.

Hang in there.!

[cry baby]

25. The worst post was some person wishing for their assassination!

That isn't an overreaction, is it?:sarcasm:

[niyad]

13. it is unpatriotice not to tell the truth, whether about the president or

It is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else.

~Theodore Roosevelt

[niyad]

15. the voice of protest is never more needed. . . .

The voice of protest...is never more needed than when the clamor of fife and drum...is bidding all men...obey in silence the tyrannous word of command.

Charles Eliot Norton

[cry baby]

26. Noted...that is a good one.

[Turbineguy]

16. Oscar Wilde:

Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious.

Republicans can understand that better.

[cry baby]

28. You're right, these have vicious attacks. All they can do is name-

call. They never make a cogent arguement.

[niyad]

17. aks them why their patriotic asses aren't in iraq!!

[cry baby]

18. HERE IS THE EXCHANGE:

He said:
"Obviously, sir, you trumpet your ego by trumpeting the blithering of antipatriots. Its easy to set yourself aside from the crowd. With that, it is perilous to do so and not understand the gravity of which you think you defy, will in turn, break the thin shell of perceived truth you believe in. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers have died in the name of freedom, liberty and justice through patriotism and patriotic acts. Their memories are blazened across the thousands of acres of cemetaries with crosses commemorating their valor and patriotism. We shall stand on the opposite sides of the fence on this and I will gladly do so. Individualism is a cherished freedom but when your opinions are aimed at the undermining of the very fabric of our nation at the expense of our military"s blood, sir, I nor any other patriot will stand aside. For it is those soldiers that these antipatriots are treading on. By looking at the smaller picture, you are destined to win battles. It is the bigger picture, the whole chess board, that will give us vision to make moves to see us through to win the war...."

I said:
I defend the right of the DCs to say whatever they want to say. That is what our hundreds of thousands of soldiers fought and died for (among the other things you mentioned in your post) including some of my own family members. If you want to stand on the opposite side of that, then that is your right.

The DCs said that they were embarrassed that our president is from Texas. Wow, how does that tear at the fabric of our nation? Our nation was founded on dissent and it is patriotic to dissent. It is really beyond my belief that anyone would say that I, or anyone for that matter, have to agree with our government or I am tearing at the fabric of our nation and dishonoring our beloved men and women who have died for my right to dissent.

I am a patriot, sir, and will stand against you if I must.

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

[niyad]

32. hatred disquised as noble thought. "codswallop" is the best response.

[cry baby]

33. what is codswallop?

Is it "hatred disguised as noble thought? can you believe the arrogance of that person to lecture on patriotism like that?

[cry baby]

19. DUers are the very best!!! I expect this exchange to go on and on

because this discussion on my board has been discussed for over two months. I will use all of your suggestions in the coming days, weeks, or however long it takes to try to change hearts and minds around here.

Again, I love you all!!:grouphug:

[onecent]

27. Ask them what branch of the military their children, or

husbands are serving in and where they are stationed.

THAT SHOULD SHUT some of them up!!!!!

[cry baby]

29. or if they are under the age of 42, why are they not in Iraq.

[Ikonoklast]

30. Ask them if they have ever read the Declaration of Independence

A document written by a bunch of rabble-rousing dissenters, without which we may not even be having a discussion about 'patriotism'.

[cry baby]

31. I am not sure if they are that literate, but I'll ask the question!

Thank you.

[Crunchy Frog]

34. Teddy Roosevelt.

The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly as necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.

[cry baby]

35. OMG, that about says it all, doesn't it Crunchy!

Thank you, thank you!:hug:

[Crunchy Frog]

40. You're welcome sweety.

:hug:

That's one of my favorite quotes ever. Good luck, and I hope you hand the Repuke his ass! (Teddy must be writhing around in his grave right now.)

[tsuki]

37. Randi Rhodes. Are you a Loyalist to Mad King George or an

American Patriot. About says it all.

[cry baby]

42. Loyalist or patriot? That is the question.

[bdamomma]

47. no make it more simpler than that

are you a follower or a leader?

[BlackVelvet04]

38. I gave this argument up a long time ago....

when accused of not being patriotic I say "thank you, I think patriotism is akin to idolatry." And that's the end of that.

[cry baby]

43. That is a wonderful rebuttal...

I'll use it if I have to.

[godhatesrepublicans]

39. If you need ammo, my web page is packed with anti-Republican Bible verses.

That may help as well.

[cry baby]

44. bookmarked and noted!!

many thanks! BTW, I have visited your site several times and really like it.

[mitchtv]

45. there is also a T Roosevelt quote

on the duty to dissent. I can't dredge it up right now
Silly me, Crunchy Frog already got it. Excuse the post
I also love the franklin quote about trading a little freedom for a little security

[cry baby]

48. Maybe someone will post...I will google and see what I find.

I remember the general gist of that quote, too. A very powerful message it is.

[Richard Steele]

64. "Those who would sacrifice essential LIBERTY...

...for temporary security, deserve neither Liberty nor Security."
Benjamin Franklin

[cry baby]

65. Perfectly said by Ben!

Thank you so much, dicksteele!:hug:

[RagingInMiami]

49. Why not just hand them a copy of the constitution

With the First Amendment highlighted?

[cry baby]

50. It's a message board, but I could copy and paste the 1st amendment

in a post. I'm not sure he will care what the constitution says, we're at war, you know.:sarcasm: He must be askeered!

[LSK]

54. the Declaration of Indepedence

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world."

http://www.ushistory.org/Declaration/document/index.htm

[cry baby]

55. I have been so inspired by this thread!!!

Thank you for posting this...I will use it with pride.

[LSK]

57. this country was founded on dissent of unjust leaders

What the Dixie chicks did was the most patriotic thing anyone can do. Amazing how so many people have NO CLUE how this nation came about.

[welshTerrier2]

56. a few more quotes

"There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people."- Howard Zinn

We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
-Edward R. Murrow

“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.”
- Thomas Jefferson

"A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public debt......If the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at stake."
From a letter sent by Thomas Jefferson in 1798, after the passage of the Sedition Act

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Herman Goering - Nazi War Criminal
Nuremburg War Crimes Trial 1945

[cry baby]

58. Those are perfect for the argument I am trying to make.

Thank you very much wT2!

[welshTerrier2]

60. give 'em hell ...

do us proud!!

[cry baby]

61. please read post #59 and tell me if I did OK.

[welshTerrier2]

62. very well said!!!

here are some arguments i make in this area (not specifically about the Dixie Chicks) ... feel free to use as little or as much as meets your needs ...

first, it is most critical to separate nationalistic blindness from genuine patriotism ... love of country means valuing the good things and it also means criticizing, in the strongest possible ways, any elected officials who fail to honor the values on which the country was founded ...

this means that if our government fails to honor our military by sending them to war for profit or any other unjust cause, we are obligated to speak out and do all we can to stop their actions ...

it means that when constitutional liberties are taken from us for any reason, especially false claims of the nation's security being threatened, we must protest ... often those who do no honor to America claim for themselves the cloak of patriotism to hide their sins against our country ...

and when we see the ravages of special interests buying an election or lobbying with so much clout that the citizens themselves are no longer represented by their own government, we must call such acts crimes against the very foundation of our nation ...

some hear in our protests a hatred of America; the truth, though, is just the opposite ... those who take to the streets are often among the finest patriots ... do anti-war protestors seek personal gain or profit for themselves? no - they protest when, right or wrong, they see their country on the wrong path ... they owe no allegiance to any war they disagree with ... it is our job as citizens to speak to our government and challenge its actions when we think the country will be harmed by them ...

the truth is that the cloak of patriotism is more often then not used by evil doers to mask their evil deeds ... they advertise the most noble motives for their actions: we are spreading democracy and we are putting money back in the pockets of the taxpayers ... they call the rest of us anti-American ...

but the truth is very different than the noble causes they proclaim ... in Iraq, we are told of helping the Iraqis ... oil companies, and bush, cheney and rice all came directly out of the oil industry, have experienced record all-time profits since the war in Iraq began ... are they whispering in bush's ear to end the war or continue it?

they talk about returning money to the citizens ... but the truth is that those who need it least got almost all of it ... and look what a republican controlled Congress has done to the budget deficit and the national debt ... patriots indeed ... they have put the nation up for sale to foreign investors in China and throughout the rest of the world ... we'll be buying back our country for generations ...

Americans should cherish the ideals on which the country was founded ... but it is a huge mistake to allow those who would prostitute the soul of America and hide behind its most noble values to claim the mantle of patriotism ... more has been done under the guise of patriotism to harm the country than could ever be done by those who have lost sight of America's ideals by claiming there is no need for it ...

[cry baby]

63. that is so well thought out and articulate...thank you so much!

Thank you for the permission to use your brilliant words.

[cry baby]

59. LATEST EXCHANGE:

He said:
"Dear confused...... A patroit can disagree with their gov't....no problem there..... But the chicks stated that patroitism was overblown and did not see the big deal with being a patroit..... Now you can defend that type of speech all you want, but if you had a problem with post #38, then you should totally understand the people here who have issue with the chicks.... Their so called speech was a slap to every American, living and dead....That is not protest, imo..... The definition of patroitism is love of country, so a patroit can love their country and still disagree with policies... but to state patroitism is overblown...Where is that love of country???? Pardon me, but I believe they dissed the entire United States..... They stated they are not patroits, as far as I am concerned.... Do you feel love of country is overblown, just like the chicks????

They need to go overseas.....and stay..... They are 3 little pigs..... and deserve any and every name hurled their way....

So please, don't lecture people over what is extreme here when you defend the most extreme statement by the chicks...."

I replied:
Dear name-caller,

I am not defending what they said, just their right to say it. Pretty simple idea.

I found the quote that I think you might be talking about from the Telegraph in the UK. Here is the quote: "The entire country may disagree with me, but I don't understand the necessity for patriotism," Maines resumes, through gritted teeth. "Why do you have to be a patriot? About what? This land is our land? Why? You can like where you live and like your life, but as for loving the whole country… I don't see why people care about patriotism."

I have never said that I agree with everything these women say. If I have, please sir, be kind enough to remind me of my quote.

Since I am a dissenter, do I, too, have to leave the country? Am I tearing at the very fabric of our country and hurting the war effort? Am I a "pig"?

Read this quote well as it is said by someone much smarter than me:
"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly as necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else." - Teddy Roosevelt

Or how about one from a founding father: "I am a revolutionary so my son can be a farmer so his son can be a poet." - John Adams

What name will you call these men?"

*The reference to post #38 is where a poster wished for the Chicks assassination.