This is why you should LOVE Feminists

[Nikki Stone 1]

If you are a woman and you

* can vote

* are not the legal property of your husband once you marry

* can decide whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term

* can be educated

* can earn your own living without being "one man away from disaster"

* value your own sexual freedom and lifestyle choice

* can get custody of your children in a divorce

* believe that domestic violence is not something women just have to tolerate

* can choose to marry or not, have children or not, work outside the home or not

* believe that rape is a serious crime, even when the rapist is not a stranger

* believe that your intelligence is not something you have to hide


If you are men and you believe in the dignity and worth of your mothers, wives and daughters and want them to achieve their highest potential...


I am sure there are many others, but it seems to me that we all benefit when women are considered "people" and not property or serfs.


And this bogus argument about stay at home mothers: Who was it who first proposed that women get PAID for housework?

Just asking.

Nikki

[MamaBear]

1. Great post!

Nicely said. :applause:

By the way, who did first put forth the "getting paid for housework" argument? I remember it appearing in the early '70s.

[AuntiBush]

72. I Remember this... I First Heard it.......................

on the TV from a then talking-head reporter. It snowballed from there.

[Hugin]

2. Bravo!

Sadly... "work outside the home or not" still isn't entirely a choice.

For many, it's necessary, but, we can dream!

:)

[Captain Hilts]

3. Because SocSec was geared toward salaries, ERoosevelt suggested...

women who worked in the home be 'paid' to make them eligible.

[Nikki Stone 1]

5. It WOULD be Eleanor Roosevelt! GREAT LADY

We haven't seen her like in a long time.

[AuntiBush]

74. She was Fantastic, a True Patriotic Hero in her Day!

Notice on the (cough) lib-er-al TV you never hear the good things about FDR, Eleanor Roosevelt much less a Kennedy. After FDR died, she continued to march and work tirelessly for women and other's human & civil rights when she could have been enjoying a life of luxury. What a lady. Sure could use more of her these days from that 1 percent bunch.

Just once why don't or won't they do an entire 2 hour long segment on the history of the Bushivitz's!?!

[cynatnite]

7. As much as the repukes go on about women staying at home...

you'd think they would push it.

[AuntiBush]

75. Sure are Enough of them Working for Them

From the tube (TV) to the GOP!

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

95. please, their oil-and-war-machine-hyped GNP

would fall flat without the support of women's FREE labor in the home and seriously underpaid labor in daycares, schools, and hospitals across the country.

[suffragette]

4. Well-said, Nikki, well-said

K&R

[wicket]

6. From one feminist to another:

Thank-you!!!

:yourock:

[Nikki Stone 1]

9. You're welcome. It bothers me so much that right wing women forget

how they got their rights in the first place.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

22. Right Wing Men are just as ignorant of where their rights came from

40 Work Week
Time and a half for overtime
Social Security
Free Public education
Writing off home mortgage interest

All of these came from liberals.

[Nikki Stone 1]

24. True, and they'd give these rights away in a hearbeat

if someone told them it was macho or right and good to do so. That 40-hour workweek with overtime is just going by the board.

[Jade Fox]

27. Like that bizarre woman in the Kansas Legislature....

who said women should not have the right to vote!

Talk about disconnect.

[Nikki Stone 1]

28. You gotta be kidding!

:crazy:

[Jade Fox]

33. I kid you not.

I can't remember her name.

[Nikki Stone 1]

38. She doesn't have the brains God gave a stringbean.

What a complete moran. (As they spell it here on DU)

[unpossibles]

112. technically, I'm not sure god gave a brain to the stringbean

oh, sorry - I thought you meant Ann Coulter, who also has stated that women should not have the right to vote.

I don't understand it at all. I am a man who was raised by a single hard-working mom, and am 100% for equal rights for any and everyone. i don't understand how people can seriously be against that.

We are all the same race, and things like gender and sexuality are also a very diverse spectrum, not a black and white issue, and we simply cannot survive or evolve until all people realize that everyone is important, valid, and that we can be simultaneously different yet the same. We should celebrate both our similarities and our differences as a strength instead of attacking each other.

So, right on, sisters! I am proud to feel this way, and hope that people can wake up and grow up soon.

And yes, there are some people that seek to dominate and subjugate others for whatever reason, but we simply cannot and must not allow them to speak for or besmirch the beauty of the diversity of our human race.

[liberalhistorian]

85. I know who you're talking about, but I

can't remember her name, either. I remember reading about it with total disbelief that ANYONE could be that clueless and disconnected, even a winger in fucking Kansas.

But then, what else would you expect from RW women? Barbara Olsen (deceased wife of Ted Olsen, the US solicitor general and an influential conservative for the Bushies; she died on the plane that hit the Pentagon on 9/11) and Ann the Man Coulter (they were great friends, it's the only time I've felt any sympathy for Ann, since I know what it's like to lose a friend so suddenly and violently) suggested that, since women haven't used the right to vote wisely, maybe it was time to think about not allowing them to vote anymore. What they really meant by not "voting wisely", of course, is that not every single woman voted the extremist winger platform. And why the hell would they, most women have more brains than that!

[AuntiBush]

77. You Got it, Nikki!!!

That's the spirit. They soon forget who fought and marched in the streets for their liberties, freedoms and rights.

:thumbsup:

[raccoon]

8. Thanks for a great post. And this should be required reading

for any woman who says, "I'm not a feminist, but..."

(Unfortunately, the morans (sic) of this world have demonized the word, same as they have the word "Liberal.")

[omega minimo]

10. "ZAP!" "POW!" "KA-ZANG!" "CHONK!" "FWAP!" "SLAM!"

"Holy shit, Batwoman!"

:applause:

[iconoclastNYC]

11. We need to do more to help single mothers

Children raised by single mothers are at a huge disadvantage to children raised with two parents.

That being said we should do more to ensure that one parent in a double parent family can stay home.

[OzarkDem]

15. and single women after their children are grown

We often overlook the needs of single working class women whose children are grown. Most have no health insurance and aren't eligible for any kind of assistance if they suddenly become ill.

There is no safety net for working women between the time their children reach 18 and age 65.

[Nikki Stone 1]

25. So many people do not have healthcare

That is a feminist issue--and a liberal one.

[OzarkDem]

12. Some more!

* Can get your own credit and purchase your own home (until the late 1970's you couldn't do this)

* Can get promoted at work based on your skills and abilities

* Still have value as a human being, even after your children are grown and on their own

* Can take charge of your own health care decisions

Hey, this is fun

[Nikki Stone 1]

13. The credit thing is really important!

There is still discrimination in business loans, and that has to be dealt with.

[OzarkDem]

16. Aha! That's discouraging

but I've heard similar things from other women business owners.

[Nikki Stone 1]

31. I read once that women are much more likely to go into business with

personal funds or money lent by family and friends. Banks are still pretty sexist about this. The other thing that ticks me off is that money set aside by the Small Business Administration for female entrepreneurs often goes to their male relatives who make a wife or mother "head" of the business, the "borrower".

[iconoclastNYC]

14. Honest question: Was Feminism hijaacked by radicals?

Like the women who think that porn is victimization of women?

Did this really happen? Or did the media just make it out to be the case?

It seems like it is a challenge for every movement to thwart the media's attempts to mischarecterize the movement as beholden to it's most radical elements.

That being said.... the "death of feminism" is another one of these battles the left jettisoned for short-term expediency. I think we have to refight these old battles and take back the "occupied terrority".

[lastliberalintexas]

17. Has to be a media created event

I've known many feminists (self described or otherwise) and I have yet to meet one who even comes close to being a man hater or stay at home mom basher. The few who make the news are the exception to the rule- and for the higher profile ones, I've also often wondered whether they were plants, even. :shrug:

[Nikki Stone 1]

18. GREAT POINTS!

I really appreciate the post.

[Odin2005]

36. to a degree yes, but there was a lot of media spin as well.

There have always been some radicals, mostly philospher and sociologist types, yakking about how inheirently evil us men are, but the right wing blow these crazies all out of proportion in order to discredit feminism the same way they blow crazies like the Greenpeace and the eco-terrorist groups in the news recently in order to discredit enviromentalism.

[The Doctor.]

99. Eggshell time gents....

:hide:

Seriously though-

I have to agree. I think that the hyper-feminists give the gals who just want to live life like a normal person more difficulty.

There is no doubt that these battles are on the horizon and we're going to have to stand by our girls while they bring all holy hell on the forces that would subjugate them.

I just hope that they are fought on the right fronts, because when the battles stray, the fight gets harder.

[donsu]

118. porn does victimize women

feminism isn't dead - the media is misogynist

[bettyellen]

19. thank you Nikki

it's disheartening to see DUers unwittingly spreading RW propaganda here.

[mogster]

20. Great post!

I think that feminism, and equal opportunities, has produced a more open and democratic society, and everyone has benefitted from that :-)

[Nikki Stone 1]

21. Good point. Thanks!

:)

[wryter2000]

23. Thank you

It was feminists who argued that the breadwinner's pension belonged to both partners, thereby granting homemakers some financial security if the marriage should fail.

[Nikki Stone 1]

26. Wow! So alimony and child support should be on this list too

I'd like the reference on that if you have time.

[wryter2000]

45. It's just my memory

I remember reading the old, old Ms. magazine on the subject of how pensions should belong to the couple, not the breadwinner. That would have been over 30 years ago.

Alimony and child support had already existed.

[OzarkDem]

143. My memory, too

The issue of sharing pensions after divorce was part of the feminist movement. Women who gave up careers to raise families and whose husbands divorced them after many years of marriage found themselves impoverished with little or no job skills or experience. The courts began to recognize that women giving up a career to support husbands and raise families were giving up something of value and should be compensated in some way when there was a divorce.

Of course the same rules also applied to men.

[undergroundpanther]

29. WooHoo..

Hi Y'all..Yes The Feminists have a lot to be proud of..and alot more work to do and a lot of battles ahead,just to keep what we have gotten so far..Never forget freedom requires vigilance lest some asshole gets too much power and those regressive think tanks crap out an excuse and spin it with P.R.to convince certain parts of the population to take women's freedoms away..again
Mere equality, is not enough..how about a better world for everyone on TOP of that?

Yeah!

[Mandate My Ass]

30. Thanks

:applause:

[Jade Fox]

32. The false conflict between Feminists and Homemakers.....

is something I've seen come up over and over in my 30 plus years as a Feminist. It's always concocted by someone in the media trying to create an issue to write about, or more recently there have sprung up these women who are basically conservative, but claim they are or would be Feminists if we Feminists weren't always putting down traditional women's roles blah, blah, blah. It's really bullshit. A little investigation into who publishes and promotes these phony Feminists reveals their true agenda.

It was Feminists who first pointed out that being a Homemaker is virtually a 24/7 job, and that if Homemakers got paid for what they do they would be making a VERY good living. Feminists were the ones who pointed out that a Homemaker's work is not valued precisely because it's "women's work". It's traditionalists who don't respect Homemakers, not Feminists.

[Nikki Stone 1]

34. There's a lot of "stealth" antifeminism done in the name of feminism

Younger women don't aways get the difference

[Jade Fox]

37. Very true.....

Younger women and men don't know the history, so they buy the bull, which is the stealth anti-feminists intention, of course. That Kirsten Powers article is a good example. She quotes one woman, and claims all Feminists believe and promote what that one woman says, gives her article an inflammatory title, and off we go.:eyes:

[Nikki Stone 1]

39. Kirsten Powers ?

Don't know her. Is she one of those facist types?

[spooky3]

43. She's a Faux pundit. She posted recent at huffingtonpost.com

The responses to her post are almost as disgusting as her original post.

[Jade Fox]

46. I was refering to this thread....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1466960&mesg_id=1466960

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

53. No surprise the thread is locked. The OP title is flame bait. n/t

MKJ

[knitter4democracy]

41. I'm a stay-at-home mom, and I'm a feminist.

All the sahms I know are, too. We're living it, and we know just how much we need the feminist movement to succeed. Ironically, it's the working married moms I know who dismiss the feminists, most often saying that it's not needed anymore. Single moms and work-at-home and stay-at-home moms I know all wish the ERA had passed and that we'd have a national health care system.

[Nikki Stone 1]

83. So was my mom. :)

Back in the seventies, she was a stay-at-home mom raising kids, and she always saw feminism as crucial to all women.

[Zookeeper]

137. Me too. And the (younger) "working" moms I know....

would never call themselves Feminists.

[motocicleta]

109. My wife is a feminist, stay at home mom.

There is no contradiction. Feminism is like breathing air. It is something that should be able to co-exist alongside any other choices, or philosophy. If tension is created, it is either artificial or the result of a structural problem within the other side of the tension. I am continually amazed at those who claim that feminism is the problem. What's the problem with wanting women's rights in every situation?

[im10ashus]

35. FABULOUS post!

K&R for all my feminist friends!

:kick:

[hfojvt]

40. the list is alot shorter for men

This business of property or serfs. Joe Serf back in the middle ages probably did not think of his wife as property. Think of Catharine the Great or Maria Theresa of the Hapsburg Empire. Sometimes women were rulers back then.

Which bogus argument about stay at home mothers are you talking about?

And this: "If you are men and you believe in the dignity and worth of your mothers, wives and daughters and want them to achieve their highest potential..."

strikes me as some kinda high school graduation slogan. Motivation for ambitious people, eager to join in the rat race and climb the corporate or financial ladder. Fie on that. :thumbsdown: I don't think it is either realistic or desirable. In the capitalist or any other system 80% or so of the work is grunt work done by serfs. That is the important work and that is the real work. Instead of encouraging everyone to try to compete for positions where they get to boss more than they have to work, I prefer a philosophy which gives the serfs the honor and credit that they deserve.

[smirkymonkey]

73. So you see women as serfs?

Instead of encouraging everyone to try to compete for positions where they get to boss more than they have to work, I prefer a philosophy which gives the serfs the honor and credit that they deserve.

How about if the "serfs" get to choose what they WANT to do, and nobody gets all uptight about it?

Thank you Nikki!

[hfojvt]

81. I see 80% of the US population as serfs

that means men and women.
and serfs never get to choose what they want to do. Do you think people are working as roofers and garbage collectors and janitors because that is what they WANT to do? You think women are working as checkers at Wal-mart and as waitresses or in factories and meat-packing plants because that is what they want to do? Except for the super-rich or those with sugar-parents, it is work, starve or steal, and competition for the "best" jobs or for any job at all, with millions working for not enough to live on.

The really ironic thing is that if you look at the Dick Vermeils and Dan Rathers of the world who are doing what they want to do, who keep working until they are 74. They are the ones who are paid a brazilian dollars a year - to do what they want to do.

It is not choosing what you want to do - it is putting your nose to the grindstone, working like a dog so you can enter the dog-eat-dog world without getting eaten alive or otherwise trampled and abused. I say that instead of joining in that fight, fully sanctioned and approved and designed to benefit THE MAN, that workers of the world, men and women, unite, to make the world a far more copacetic place. That's what I want to do - to be part of that unity, to be part of that solution - not just get a good-paying job for myself.

[UrbScotty]

42. From a man: Excellent post (nt)

[Nikki Stone 1]

84. Thank you!

:)

[senseandsensibility]

44. K and R

baby! :) Needed to be said; I'm glad you did.

[michael_1166]

47. Not bravo at all.

I consider feminism as inappropriate and superfluous as masculinism. Men didn't bother to invent masculinism, yet feminism seems a sacred cow somehow for women and also for some men being scared of the scorn of feminists. That men are out to somehow "suppress" women is (at least in western countries) a myth kept alive by feminists just for a) keeping the funding flowing and b) convincing themselves of their imagined moral superiority. It's quite a sad story if you look at it: The strategy of feminists is to keep victimizing themselves, and most of the public is too scared for challenging this bogus assumption.

[marions ghost]

48. did you miss a few decades in there michael?

...you know, when women finally had the courage to speak out after centuries of abuse?

"Women are not suppressed...they are victimizing themselves" OK, right, and the icebergs aren't melting in Greenland.

[michael_1166]

50. We're not talking about a few decades ago

we're talking about today.

I am not against women fighting for their rights, of course not, just like I am not against men fighting for their rights. But feminists made a pseudo religion, a belief system out of stating that men are trying suppress them. If there are any issues of getting suppressed it's a people against people issue, not men against women.

I keep stating feminists are portraying women as victims just for gaining political capital and influence. Men in the political business certainly don't dare to challenge a sacred cow like feminism if they want their careers staying intact.

Oh, by the way, the icebergs in Greenland ARE melting.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

51. Just your calling feminism a "sacred cow" is telling enough.

Sorry, you may have to have a woman boss one day. Hope you can handle it. MKJ

[WindRavenX]

57. you do realize that women ARE second class citizens, right?

Oh wait, I'm just playing the victim card :sarcasm:

I get paid less for the same job as men, I'm criticized for wanting reproductive freedom over my body--yup, I'm a victim!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

60. Now, now, michael is holding on to his precious views. He's a bit delicate

so you don't want to shake his core value of feminism=evil! He's already sounding a bit tearful. :cry: MKJ

:rofl:

[hfojvt]

100. have you actually worked a job

where you were paid less than a man who was doing the same job?

When I worked as a temp I did more work than the non-temps, many of which were women who got paid twice what I did. I do not see alot of truth in the "women are paid less than men" line although even a cave man like Johnny Hart accepts it. It does not fit my experience.

In what ways are women 2nd class citizens?

And I also think you were wrong about the women vs. men like him (or me) because there are plenty of women on the anti-choice, non-progressive side, so in the battle of progressive vs. reactionary feminists and male progressives should be on the same side.

[lukasahero]

105. I have

My company hired a guy and I not only had to train him to do the work I was already doing (not the company specific stuff, the actual programming languages), I made $15k less a year than him. That doesn't even begin to consider the guys I didn't work directly with who made upwards of $30K more than I did. So you see, experiences differ.

Also, for the record, it's an inaccurate comparison to use full time permanent employees verses temporary employees. The example I provided compares apples to apples - both full time perm employees.

[hfojvt]

116. why is that an inaccurate comparison?

I was a "temporary" employee for three years, and maybe I could still be there if I had not gotten a real job. We were both working at the same plant, on the same machines. The only difference was one of status (okay there was also experience and training, but after a year not such a huge gap there and even less with the new hires). In fact, after I had been a temp for two years I certainly knew more about the plant than new hires, many of which I helped teach, and many of whom stood around yakking while I ran their machine.

Your use of numbers like $15,000 and $30,000 (176% of my temp salary, and even 120% of my current pay) makes me think you are already in the lower stratosphere making something like $50,000 plus bennies. Can I admit that I do not care about how a 50 K + person is "unfairly" not making enough money? You seem to not care about the men or women who have 2nd class status as temps - apparently we do not deserve as much pay as the apples.

[lukasahero]

119. Quit with the personal slams based on ridiculous assumptions, ok?

You asked if the poster had made less than men she worked with. I assumed, it being a public board, that my answer to your question would be accepted. And yet because I answered a question you asked affirmatively (that yes, indeed as a woman I had in fact made less than men doing the same job), and possibly simply because I make more money than you, you conclude that I don't care about wages and the working poor? You asked a question, I answered. Don't like my answer, fine, but don't make further assumptions just because I used some numbers. I assume you don't think Ted Kennedy cares about the issue either since he makes so much more money than you...?

"Can I admit that I do not care about how a 50 K + person is "unfairly" not making enough money?" Well, if you don't care that a woman making that is doing the same job as a man making $80k, then I guess we have nothing left to discuss. Pretty much sums up where you stand on equality. I happen to think that if a job pays well or ill, it should pay equally well or ill to both men and women.

FTR, and probably just to really piss you off, I got laid off from that job 3 years ago. I have been a contractor (a temporary employee) ever since. Pay has not been an issue.

[hfojvt]

124. Personal slams? Ridiculous assumptions?

You did not just answer my question. You also added this:

"Also, for the record, it's an inaccurate comparison to use full time permanent employees verses temporary employees."

Thus, you stated, as I understood, it is okay to treat a temp as a 2nd class worker, since they are only temps, even if they do the same work or more work. I did not assume anything. I went by what you stated, basically, temps don't deserve to get paid what permanent employees do.

However, I do think it is outrageous that a man is making $80,000 to do the same job as a woman making $50,000. I think the man should be making $50,000 a year too. I do not understand why the company would pay him $30,000 a year more. It's bizarre, but about 70% of working people would like to have that problem - to be making $50,000 a year when others are making $80,000 for the same thing.

Pretty much sums up where you stand on equality that you are only looking up, and look down to gloat. "Pay has not been an issue" (translation - neener, neener)

[lukasahero]

125. Yup

neener neener neener was the intent.

"Also, for the record, it's an inaccurate comparison to use full time permanent employees verses temporary employees" Translation: your logic is faulty. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to put forth a logical argument, then you have to use valid comparisons.

Temp male workers vs. permanent female workers introduces an additional and unaccounted-for variable. Temp female workers vs. perm female workers, temp male workers vs. perm male workers makes an argument about the disparity of wages between temp and perm employees. It is a valid argument and worthy of debate. However, it's not what this thread is about.

[hfojvt]

130. my logic is only faulty

if you accept the premise that it is "okay to treat temps as 2nd class workers".

Since they are doing the same job, it seems like pretty straightforward comparable worth to me. You would not think my logic was faulty if I said that female "secretaries" were paid less than male "clerks" for doing the exact same job.

It is what this thread is about, if you look at the big picture, The argument flows from "women are treated as 2nd class citizens because they are paid less for the exact same job" which is treated as a universal truth for all jobs and all women. So I provide an exception where men and women are paid less for THE EXACT SAME WORK than other men and women. Talk about 2nd class workers. Talk about discrimination.

Also happens to be a pet issue of mine, even though I am no longer in that boat. Seems like a far more serious discrimination than that faced by somebody already above the median income.

[Scout]

117. you can't compare wages for a temp job

to the wages of a "permanent hire" doing the same job.

I'm a temp, and there is no way I expect to get as much as a permanent hire. That's one of the advantages for the employer in having a temp.

[alcibiades_mystery]

76. No feminist worth her salt says "men are trying to suppress women"

Rather, feminists critique a system of thought and power that actively works to construct particular roles for both men and women, and create power disparities between those roles. Some women even participate and extend such systems. Patriarchy isn't about "men." It's about forms of power and social organization that hurt men as much as they hurt women. Your cartoon-classic version of feminism is not only wrong. It's also remarkably stupid.

[lumberjack_jeff]

113. Well said

The patriarchal system harms everyone.

Look at the vietnam wall.
look at american life expectancy.
visit with your local garbageman
talk to a dad who's been subjected to "family" law.
talk to a 18 year old male hs graduate who's female peers are 50% more likely to go to college.

As Warren Farrell points out, there's a glass floor as well as a glass ceiling.

[michael_1166]

131. A personal attack again...

ok, but I expected that. A defining part of feminism seems to be the art of insulting people under the protective screen of a movement that's being guarded like a sacred cow. If you ask me, that's the behaviour of cowards. Anyway -

Tell me, if feminists

critique a system of thought and power that actively works to construct particular roles for both men and women, and create power disparities between those roles.

- why did they gave their movement the remarkably gender-specific name "feminism"? If that's not over-emphasizing the feminine aspect, I don't know what is.

[Scout]

133. If you think a poster is making a personal attack....

you should alert the post to the moderators rather than being snarky.

[marions ghost]

82. from my experience

men are still taught by their families and society that they are superior to, and should dominate women. This basic teaching in its more subtle forms leads to suppression of women throughout their entire lives. Today. Everyday. Not yesterday.

Far from being "over," feminism (or whatever term you prefer--how about "gender equality"?) is in its infancy. Women still must defer to men to get anywhere in careers. They still get criticized instead of helped in balancing families with jobs, etc etc. Many of the gains made by women (whether you call them feminists or not) are superficial or not very secure. The current Dark Age has been a big step backward for women.

Sexism, just like racism, is alive and well.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

49. LOL, yep, now which gender has the most money and power through the

centuries, indeed,the millenia?

Women of the world have served notice, we're no longer chattel and property.

Feeling a bit threatened, are we, michael? MKJ

[michael_1166]

55. Not feeling threatened at all.

You're just executing rule No 1 of feminism dealing with criticism: Suggest it's a personal issue of the critic when it is not. I don't need other human beings as chattel and property, thank you very much. If you like to think within these categories, that's your preference.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

58. LOL, nice response. Because women "choose" to think of themselves as

chattel, they then become that which they envision. OK, interesting point of view.

Do you agree that men have held the money and power (as opposed to women) through the course of Western Civilization? MKJ

[michael_1166]

70. I agree.

And those men were stupid enough to kill each other on numerous battlefields for that money and power. Then women fighted for their right to join in on the battlefields, and the wars are still about money and power. Can you make out any progress here? I don't.

[ismnotwasm]

94. Yawn

Not this feminist's number one rule. My number one rule is to blame patriarchal indoctrination and domination which has encompassed centuries and continues to this day. I like my criticisms spiced with historical context leading to the present day reactions, opinions, and behaviors of folks. You could call it a type of sociology. Far more interesting and enlightening.

Nice try though.

[lumberjack_jeff]

114. Don't buy the stereotypes

http://www.supportingadvancement.com/vendors/canadian_fundraiser/articles/womens_affluence.htm

MY NICHOLS’ WORTH
UNDERSTANDING THE INCREASING AFFLUENCE OF WOMEN
Judith E. Nichols, Ph.D., CFRE

The American Association of Fundraising Council Trust for Philanthropy estimates that women’s charitable giving has increased by more than $15 billion since 1996. Yet, most organizations still focus their fundraising efforts more heavily on men.

Globally, women's economic power is soaring. Women make 80 percent of all buying decisions around the world. In the United States, for example:

• American women by themselves are, in effect, the largest national” economy on earth, larger than the entire (!) Japanese economy.
• Over the past three decades (1970-1998), men’s median income barely budged (+0.6 percent after adjusting for inflation), while women’s has soared +63 percent.
•Women bring in half or more of the household income in the majority of the United States.
•Women control 51.3 percent of the private wealth in the United States.
•Women control most of the spending in the household - about 80 percent.

Still not convinced? In The Power of the Purse: How Smart Businesses Are Adapting to the World’s Most Important Consumer -- Women, (Pearson/Prentice Hall 2006), author Fara Warner asserts that:

o Women account for more than 50 percent of all stock ownership in the United States. By 2010, women will account for half the private wealth in the country, or about $14 trillion. By 2020, you can expect that number to reach $22 trillion as wealth continues to shift from men to women.
o When women and men of equal education, abilities, and similar social status are compared, the pay disparity disappears. Those women make as much as, if not more than, their male counterparts. Forty-one percent of the 3.3 million Americans with incomes exceeding $500,000 are women.
o Women control or influence 67 percent of household investment decisions. Forty-three percent of Americans with $500,000 or more in investable assets are women.
o Women control 48 percent of estates worth more than $5 million.

[Scout]

52. thanks for the laugh michael_1166, I needed that! n/t

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

54. K & R, just to illuminate michael's "progressive" views...LOL.

:rofl: MKJ

[michael_1166]

59. I knew I wouldn't get much fans with that post ;)

But I think it is quite progressive not to divide humankind into two opposing teams, men vs. women, fighting each other. Feminists keep their followers by stating there is that kind of fight going on. The feminist lobby will never state there is no fight anymore, or that the battle has ceased, because they'd make themselves superflous that very moment. Same principle working here as with the neverending "war on terrorism".

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

61. Well, as long as women are beaten by boyfriends/husbands, genitally

mutilated or stoned to death for adultery, yeah, I would say the battle continues. MKJ

[WindRavenX]

66. stop being an angry femi-nazi

Please, just stop.

Thanx :hi:


;)

[WindRavenX]

62. there sure is a fight

It's women v.s people like you.

There is a fight Michael. Women are not equal in this country at all.
But judging from your posts, you don't care.

[motocicleta]

107. It would be the same principle if there was no need for feminism

as it appears there is no need for a war on terrorism. However, ...

Taken a look lately at sex abuse statistics? Read anything about genital mutilation? I could go on, but those two should, for any reasonable human, end any debate over whether one gender is oppressing another. Please, Michael, stop now. You are parroting the divisive tactics of the right. I'm not sure you want to be on that side.

Matt

[michael_1166]

56. Well, my pleasure.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. What do you do for a living Michael?

Because I'm willing to bet there's a whole lot of women who can do your job, do it better than you, and wind up only getting paid a fraction of what you make.

[michael_1166]

79. You lose your bet

I am currently unemployed. Unemployed women get exactly the same money here in Germany as men. Apart from that, in my profession (website programming) there are a lot of job offers that state they prefer women for the job. If you argue they prefer women because they can pay them less, well, could be in some cases, I don't know, but I wouldn't object getting a job for a woman's wage if getting that job in the first place.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

80. Ahh.

I actually kind of figured that.

[OzarkDem]

140. Welcome to DU!

Nothing brings out the "dissenters" like a feminist thread...

[Cleita]

64. Thanks Nikki.

It will also be feminists who fight for the rights that the others are trying to take away from us.

[Jed Dilligan]

65. I appreciate feminism as a man

Because it frees me from traditional gender roles. I don't have to act cold and "in control" all the time, and I don't have to deal with women who act stupid and never speak their minds but expect me to guess their exact thoughts.

Here's to the end of all that crap!

:toast:

[WindRavenX]

67. WORD

:thumbsup:

I love men like you. Kudos. Seriously.

[Jed Dilligan]

90. And I love women who

aren't scared to say what they think.

Nothing more annoying than a clammed-up woman. Nothing sexier than one who can communicate.

[WindRavenX]

92. by "communicate" you mean "kick-ass" right?

:D

[AuntiBush]

68. Thanks, Nikki.

I dare any "one" to tell me what to do with my body!

Don't let anyone mess with your body, ever!
Don't ever let anyone mess with your money - end of story!
But if you ever let anyone mess with your integrity, be a 'woman' and walk out on the man or group, point blank!

Words from my dearly departed Grandpa while teaching me how to stand my ground in a so-called man's world. He seen the writings on the wall and did his best to teach me how to hold my ground knowing he'd not be here to protect me when I grew-up.

He was an old-time Church of God dunker minister from WVA. Bible-totting, he never, ever pushed it on me or anyone, ever. Kept it to himself. Did not believe in pushing his ideals on others, nor did he like those pushy kind of "false Christian-like people."

Edited to Add: Never, ever did he or my Grandma make me go to church, nor pick a denomination for me. I choose one on my own before the age of 11. They continued, till their deaths, telling me "you do not have to go - it's fine with us." They taught me tolerance, open-mindedness. Liberals, they were well beyond their years.

Thanks for reminding me of this, Nikki. You just made my year.

[ismnotwasm]

69. Dang!

Absolutely the best thread I've read in a while. :yourock:

[StellaBlue]

71. AfuckingMEN

Bravo.

[shance]

78. Good going Nikki Stone*

Thanks for the great post.

[toandme]

86. Excellent! Are you familiar with.....

Equality Now?

Equality Now Website - http://www.equalitynow.org/english/index.html

They are FIGHTING for womens rights worldwide (Worth a click to check out!)

There is a movie screening/fund raising event in 47 cities worldwide happening THIS WEEK for them!

http://www.cantstoptheserenity.com/

Go out for a night of fun and support a great charity, what more can you ask for!?!?!

[Nikki Stone 1]

87. Good website. Thanks!

:)

[toandme]

89. Yep & they have "star" power behind them with Streep, Tomei,...

[geniph]

122. Hey, toandme! Are you a Browncoat?

member of Seattle Browncoats here - are you a Firefly/Serenity fan?

[Kurovski]

88. K&R.

Sharp and clear writing.

[toandme]

91. K&R!

[lostinacause]

93. This is why you should love the feminists of the past.

My experience is that many people currently professing to be feminist have brought it such an extreme that they become sexist. When a person proposes equal rights I support them. When a person proposes one group having more rights then the other based on sex I have a problem.

[athena]

97. What do today's feminists propose that would give women more rights than

men?

Please list them.

[lostinacause]

136. I should mention that it is just the feminists and women's groups that I

have come into contact with. The extremists are often heard the loudest.

In particular there was this one pamphlet that was being distributed about the differences in wages between males and females. When you first look at it the difference is shocking. Then you think about it for a second. How many females do you know that choose to do back breaking labour for a living? I'm sure its not many, yet there are compensating wages associated with hard labour. What is the relative fraction of females who leave the workforce to start a family? It has been my experience then many more females choose to raise a family. Since wages increase as people spend time in the workforce this would again account for some of the difference.

Another group looked at the percentage of females in upper management and executive positions. Again the initial reaction is that there is sexual discrimination. Again you look at the types of people applying for the jobs. Most are in their fifties meaning they went through the education some 25 years ago. This means that the institutions currently in place could be fine and most of the problems could (and likely are) associated with decisions made 25 years ago.

Finally there is the great inclusion argument. Part of the feminist movement was away from exclusionary facilities yet many proclaiming to be feminists support facilities that only grant access to females (such as a gym).

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

98. Huh?

"When a person proposes one group having more rights then the other based on sex I have a problem."

What feminists are actually doing this? Or are you just objecting to the label?

[lostinacause]

134. I'm in university, so I come into contact with a number of so called

free "thinkers". Many of those claiming to be feminist I have found to be very sexist. My girlfriend feels the same way and neither of us are conservative (in the non-political sense of the word) in our values. Perhaps it is just that those are the ones who speak the loudest.

I should mention that I live in Canada.

[eviltwin2525]

96. hey, I'm a man....

and I believe in MY dignity and worth, and for THAT reason, I love feminists -- and I am a feminist! Valuing the dignity and worth of human beings who happen to be female or happen to be male (or gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered; or black, hispanic, asian; or large or small; or physically or mentally challenged; or who knows what!) enhances my own dignity and worth.

[nonconformist]

101. I'm a stay at home mom and a proud feminist. Thanks! and, btw...

The people that have given me the most shit for choosing to raise my children myself have been conservative types who could not be described as "feminists" in any sense of the word. And the people that have been the most supportive and helpful of my decision have been "radical" feminists/naturalists.

Food for thought.

Great post!

[OzarkDem]

141. Good for you

I'm a feminist who has done both and support every woman's choice to do as she wishes.

[ConcernedYoungMan]

102. Question to feminists

I dont know much about feminists, but just hope someone can clear up a few things.

What do feminists think about Gays & Racial minorities ?

Do you support gay rights as well as affirmative action ?

[the other one]

103. Egalitarians, not feminist.

I am a white male, and I would love to see a color-blind gender-blind society. I don't think that is the goal of feminists. They seem to want to punish white men for being born white men. I am all for equality, but feminists seem to want to replace white men with women. That is not progress. Too many laws in our society now favor women. The family court system assumes women are better parents. The police target males. Prostitutes are not considered sex offenders.

I didn't ask to be a white male, and I would surely welcome an egalitarian society, but if feminists insist that it is women's turn to run things, then I demur. If you try to put us down, then maybe we will decide to stay on top. Its about EQUALITY, not feminism.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

104. "feminists seem to want to replace white men with women"

Your argument is predicated on a false premise.

We are not trying to "put you down". And your argument regarding the poor, persecuted white male is refuted by one look at the CEO's of Fortune 500 companies and the overwhelming gender/ethnic make up of the House and Senate, not to mention the Executive branch.

Women do want equality, however, many men see that as very threatening, since men have been in power since the beginning of Western Civilization.

Don't worry, you won't be seeing the demise of the current power structure anytime soon, so your decision to "stay on top" will be supported by society as a whole.


MKJ

[motocicleta]

108. We would all love a gender-blind, color-blind society

but we do not live in one.

As a straight white male, I have never, ever, ever, seen an instance of women trying to replace white men with women. I have seen plenty of ill-educated, uncouth, angry women who can't seem to get their facts straight and make the feminist argument that needs to be made, but per capita I think the numbers of idiots in the feminist crowd are far below the numbers in the 'oppressed' white male' crowd. There are morons and assholes in every group, but to blame all of feminism for a few bad apples is really just embarrassing.

Please quit representing white males in this way. Right now, you are one of the bad apples in my particular barrel.

[izzybeans]

115. As a "white male" I understand it can be easy to confuse loss of

privilege with discrimination, or in other words the loss of entitlement has been replaced by credentials and know how. Sometimes the competition is just too strong and qualified candidates passed up by white male priviledge in times past are with growing regularity given their proper credit-though we are far from equal.

[michael_1166]

132. Seems like you're a lone voice in the wilderness here....

wishing you the best of luck.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

106. Wow...

What a slap in the face! I needed that!

As a woman with an education who votes and is married with two children, with my name on the mortgage, who has travelled all over the planet ALONE I have to say I had never put all that together. It gives me a whole new perspective.

"As God is my witness, I will never go hungry again!"

Nikki Stone - Take a bow!

[evirus]

110. CAN get custody of your children in a divorce

emphisis on the word can. a women can be a bad parent too, we shouldnt turn the sex gene into a rubber stamp for custody

[motocicleta]

111. Let's add: if you are a man and you like strong women

All the women I naturally like are strong. They are also feminists, to greater and lesser degree. To me, those three things, strength, feminism, and my natural adoration, just go together. I hate to get so broad brush about any issue, but this one is 100% true in my experience.

[donsu]

120. and in case you never heard of it or never saw the DVD or stage

productions


The Vagina Monologues

by Eve Ensler

quotes from the front of the DVD holder: "What's so special about your vagina?"

"Somewhere deep inside it I know it has a really smart brain."


"The Vigina Monologues, created and performed by Eve Ensler, debuted off-off-Broadway in 1996. This controversial work soon rode a wave of national acclaim and continues to be performed in North America and around the world."


drove the religiously insane, insane. LOL

check it out - you will enjoy

[geniph]

121. Nikki, thank you

I'm old enough that I remember when the want ads in the paper were separated into Help Wanted: Women, and Help Wanted: Men, and a woman could not apply for a man's job. The women's jobs were all low-paying - not a "career" among them. I don't want to go back to those days. I remember when a woman could not get credit or a mortgage in her own name - she had to get a father, husband, brother, or son to cosign for her. I remember when divorced women were assumed to be homewrecking Jezebels.

And I remember when the OB-GYN wards were full of septicemia cases from self-induced abortions.

I remember my mother having 15 pregnancies in 13 years, because birth control even for married women was illegal and many doctors would give you a lecture if you went in for a diaphragm.

I remember when a girl who said that her father, stepfather, or uncle had molested her was automatically disbelieved and usually punished for "lying."

I don't want to go back to those days.

What some seem to think - even here! - is that equality is some sort of zero-sum game. If women (or people of color, or LGBT people) acquire rights they've been previously denied, it does NOT TAKE AWAY RIGHTS FROM THE PEOPLE WHO ALREADY HAD THEM! I can't overemphasize that statement. Giving African-Americans the right to vote did NOT take away the vote from white men. Giving women the right to attend college did not take it away from the white men who already had it.

So much of the "contention" between feminists and "traditionalists" is totally trumped-up horseshit. Controversy sells better than consensus. I think only a minority of the population - probably overlaps a lot with the 30% Bush-loving backwash, too - really believes that racial, gender, or LGBT equality is a bad thing.

[cap]

123. we need to get women back to work

legions of 40+ year old women have been walked out of the computer profession since 2000 never to return. They just dont exist anymore and the men are completely blind to the fact that a generation has been driven out just like the women in the factories during world war II were when the soldiers returned from the war.

Sorry guys, but I dont believe that you are really that sincere. NOt one of you has demanded a workplace of a gender split of at least 30% female (the number of women who graduated in CS in 1980). The women in the profession are out there; you just arent hiring them. They are now working as administrative assistants (I know several of them). Not one of you has gone to your boss and insisted that your female coworker is hired, given important assignments that lead to promotion, and given the appropriate pay and promotions. Not one of you has gone to personnel and demanded that you have female coworkers at the senior level. Not one of you has questioned the fact that most of your bosses have stay-at-home wives. Not one of you has ever hired a woman returning to the workforce after an absence of 3-5 years because she took care of her family. Not one of you has taken years off to care for your family. Not one of you has demanded an on ramp for women returning to the workforce. Until you start making these demands in the workforce, I cant believe that you are really sincere. I appreciate the nice sentiments uttered on the board and am glad that you arent the knuckle draggers of Free Republic, but actions speak louder than words.

[lukasahero]

126. Sorry but I'm a female software engineer.

Have been since 1999. I didn't wait for (or expect) a man to demand anything for me. I demanded it for myself. Feminism gave me the opportunity to do that. :)

I appreciate your sentiments but I disagree with the premise that women aren't working in IT. Some are, some aren't. None should wait for men to give them the keys.

[cap]

127. I am speaking of the women working in IT over 40

and I am discounting the women in support functions such as business analyst, QA, test. I am talking about women in line functions... functions that lead to promotions and power within the organization.

Women over 40 have been forced to leave the profession. There are some 30 somethings in the profession and some late 20 somethings in the profession. There are almost no new grads. This must change.

Men have to be made to understand the severity of the problem. They have the numbers and hold the positions within the organization to change things. They have to understand that something is terribly wrong in this profession. Women can ask, educate and demand that things change. By no means are women to be passive... but they do not make the rules in the organization. Men do. Men in power have to make that change.

[lukasahero]

129. Guess I should have also included the over 40 information

I'm 43. And again, I'm an engineer. I'm not an analyst, I'm not in QA. I do production support and application development.

In fact, though, my experience is that it is the analysts and QA folks who move up to positions of management and many of them are women. The coders like to code and most of us avoid moving into positions of management. Most of the IT managers I have worked for were women - over 40.

Just adding my experience. Take it for what it's worth.

[cap]

139. we do not have equality in the profession... period...

you are taking your own personal success and generalizing it. It is not a generalization applicable to the industry. We have no where near the equality that is needed. The salaries and the promotions do not belong to us. Your company is very unusual having IT managers that were women. Most companies dont. As you move up the managerial ranks women become non-existant.

Please stop diminishing a major problem for women.

[lukasahero]

142. I have worked for several companies

In fact, I have been a contractor for the last three years and worked for 5 of them not including the permanent job I had before that. Of that list, only one company had men in the top positions.

I'm sorry my experience doesn't fit your agenda. I see progress in this field here in Massachusetts/NH/RI. I am not saying that it is the only experience out there but it is not a single, personal and isolated incident either.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out women's success in this arena. Yes, there is more progress to make but that doesn't diminish the progress that is being/has been made. In fact, ignoring the situation and proclaiming the situation dire, when others can see with their own eyes and experiences that the situation is not entirely as bleak as you claim, does more harm than good. (It's the "not in my experience" effect. You're asking men to improve a situation that they may or may not see as needing improvement. If they see women in higher IT ranks, they're just going to dismiss your call to action because it's not their experience.)

I would rather acknowledge the progress and suggest more needs to be done. That approach doesn't deny the experiences of those who do actually see women in management positions while giving them insight to the continuing disparity.

[cap]

144. Sorry ...

What you are saying does not match industry statistics even in liberal MA/NH. If you troll about the internet, you will find authoritative sources to back my argument. I believe the figures right now for women's employment in the industry overall are running about 20%. Break it down by function and you will see that the overwelming majority of them are Business Analysts, QA, Test DBA (of smaller systems) and some development. Where they are in the development is GUI programmer, and Database (SQL) programmer. They are not architects. They do not manage the larger, mission critical systems where the money is. They manage the smaller, less critical systems or training projects. Women's salaries in the field average 30% less than men's, except in contracting where they do approach equality.

I am generally the only woman at my level in the room. I am the only female architect/project lead/project manager. It's me and the guys. I do not see any women given the lead assignments.

Go to the IEEE or the O'Reilly industry conferences and you will see very few women... Oh yeah, that's right. The major companies dont send women to those conferences.

Houston, we have a problem...We cant "Play Nice anymore". We have been doing that and it doesn't work

[truebrit71]

128. Excellent post!

:thumbsup:

[Beausoir]

135. All educated women are feminists.

[Evoman]

138. People who diss feminism are ignorant

Feminism has been the single greatest reason for the liberation of women. And the fight is not over yet. Until women make up exactly half of all leaders, half of all CEOs, etc, there is still inequality and a place for feminism and feminist literature. This idea that all feminism is anti-men is ridiculous. Some feminism is a little hardcore, but the hardest of the hardcore is absolutely necessary.

I don't get why some people are so intimidated by feminism. I'm a macho latin dude, and I'm still pro-feminist. And, althouth I don't feel I have ever been responsible for the abuse of a women, I still occasionally feel ashamed to be a man. The truth is, there are so many men out there abusing women, and though we like to say "not all of us are bad..stop picking on ALL men", what are most of us really doing to stop it? We should be working with our feminist sisters and brothers to end the abuse of women all over the world.