Wallmart Shopers vs Toyota Prius drivers.

[Tyler Durden]

"LET'S GET READY TO RRRRRUUUMMMBLE!!!"

It is the easiest thing in the world to piss on your neighbor for their buying habits.

So let's dissect this, shall we?

Let's say I'm a broke, middle class denizen with little or no disposable income. I still need my coffee, dude. So let's talk coffee:

I'd rather buy fresh, fair-traded coffee. I can't afford it. I CAN afford a 3 pound bag of "8 O'Clock" beans at Wallmart for $9.64, versus $11.00 plus everywhere else. But do I buy meat there? Fuck, no.

I go to the local Kroger, where 2 for 1 and a buck off retail for my frequent shopper card is the rule. They're just down the street from the 'Mart, and I don't waste gas getting there.

Comparison Shopping is the American Way, unless it's DRESS shoes at the neighbor's store in downtown Owosso: that is a bullet I CHOOSE to bite because I like my neighbor.

So let's talk cars.

What do I drive? a 1997 Saturn SL1 SOHC which gets 38-40 mpg at 75 mph on the freeway. It DOES burn about 2 quarts of oil per change, but hey, the math tells me it evens out in the long run, financially and ecologically.

SOOOO. You drive a Prius.

The High Tech guts of a Hybrid take so much energy to produce it isn't even funny. True, you run this thing for 14 years, the energy required to make it, along with toxic releases to the environment run about 30/70 vs the gas to run it. Again, do the math. Who keeps their car that long? Does your car LAST that long? You have to own it MORE than 6 years and drive MORE than 20K miles a year to make that balance (See newscientist.com). How many people do that?

On top of that, it's a JAPANESE corporation. Remember WHALES? Remember DRIFT NETS? So your "pissing rights" have their own drawbacks.

Granted, this is a limited argument, but I hope you see what I'm talking about? What's your tradeoff?

Being an progressive environmentalist is tough. It takes research, it takes guts, AND IT TAKES MONEY.

Oops.

Guess I'll have to resign myself to picking my battles carefully. Like my Saturn, and my Coffee.

[LostinVA]

1. I'm too busy to reply, but....

:popcorn:

[Tyler Durden]

9. This isn't a flame bait....

...I'm just tired of being pissed on for comparison shopping.

If everyone else can afford to buy their fair-traded coffee at $10/pound on the net, I applaud them. I'm broke.

[Bandit]

43. What is the difference between killing a whale for food

or buying a big mac? It is the exact same thing as your example...

[Tyler Durden]

45. I do as much PETA as I can.

I don't eat at Mickey D's, though. And I like to think of Cetaceans as being pretty close to us on the IQ scale. Given the choice, I try not to eat things with a face. I do not often succeed.

[bunkerbuster1]

2. What Prius driver would give a Saturn SL1 driver a hard time?

Sorry, I can't even visualize such a thing. The Prius drivers I know take issue with conspicuous consumers, not the hard-scrapping folks who are already driving well-worn fuel efficient cars.

[Tyler Durden]

6. I get it all the time.

"You need to go buy a new HYBRID!!!"

Personally, I am unconvinced that the hybrid is not a scam to just sell cars. Still burns GAS, and there were at least a dozen non-gas alternatives until the Car makers (INCLUDING Toyota) started canceling their leases, recalling them, and crushing them.

[Clark2008]

19. I agree.

I get blasted because I don't like foreign cars - hybrids or not - because I simply don't buy into the old 1980s line that they're better. They're not.

The only reason they resale at a higher rate is because they're more expensive when on the initial purchase.

I just bought a new Mustang - my fifth Mustang, as a matter of fact. My last one was 12-almost-13 years old and was only this year starting to show signs of wear and age. I traded it in rather than fix the clutch because it was just time.

[skids]

25. As a prius owner...

...I've never given a hard time to a person who cannot afford to buy in. It's the folks with brand new SUVs and such that I pan.

And as far as comparison shopping goes, I don't begrudge people who are living on the edge for doing that.

I do think people who do have a bit of extra cash should shop for more than just price, and I don't like the "American Way" of comparison shopping when it's not done by people that absolutely need to. It creates a race to the bottom, where the price tag is the only thing even looked at. (And that can actually backfire, for example were someone to neglect to look at the difference in power efficiency of an appliance.)

Now I don't appreciate the impugning of new car buyers. There are various reasons why a person would need a new car -- good ones. For example say they have a job that they are likely to lose if they break down on the road too much. Or they need to regulate their finances into a nice smooth car loan payment rather than the binge and purge cycle of getting an old car fixed when it breaks. I'm sorry but I've been through the used car racket, and I will probably never go back.

As far as hybrids go, many people who are buying them don't realize they are doing so, but they are in effect buying a short-range EV. The most popular models all have PHEV kits available. If and when gas prices get too far futher out of hand, these people will be the ones that have the option of running on electricity for all but long trips. Old Saturn owners won't have that option. Nor will they have pushed forward the marketability of the technology needed for full EVs.

[bperci108]

26. A lot of self-righteous pissery....

....comes with being "superior" to the rest of us. ;)

Check out David Rovics' song "I'm A Better Anarchist Than You" at www.davidrovics.com for free. It sums it up nicely (not that enviro-folks are anarchists, mind you, but the attitude skewered in the song is eerily familiar).

I look at the hybrid as a stop-gap and a research platform for future technology, but I'm in the camp of Old Technology as the Way Of The Future.

Still, this thread could get interesting....

:popcorn:

[susanna]

61. I'm a well-worn efficient car gal.

Mine is 13 years old, stick shift VW w/ 60,000 miles on it. Runs like a freaking dream. I have absolutely NO REASON to get a "newer" car and up my car payment per month from ZERO to about $300+.

That said, I can't tell you how many people mention "you should get a new car." I'm like, "What for? Mine's still running." I'll never get over that. My preferred reply would be "please mind your own business" but momma taught me to be nice...

[wtmusic]

3. Have any data to back up your claim about a hybrid's "High Tech guts"?

I'm laughing, and I'm hoping your data will make it not even funny.

[Tyler Durden]

4. the 30/70 breakdown is on newscientist.com

the "high tech guts" are on EVERY new vehicle. I work in the industry. You want to scare yourself, look at the toxics involved in the latest battery technology.

Hey, just saying a lot of us can't afford it, and on top of it the ecological cost to make ANY new car should be weighed against its use.

[madrchsod]

22. i put together electric air pumps for gasoline engines.

the pumps recirculate start up gas fumes back into the intake to lessen air pollution. the parts are made in china ,korea,and mexico where the parts are cheaper to make. so to save our air quality and costs we burn tons of oil to transport materials from cheap sources to assemble here in the states. by the way the parts are all the same -ford,gm,toyota,volkswagen all use the basic pump.

[Beaverhausen]

34. Do they take into account the very low emisions from hybrids?

And yes, people do own Toyotas for 14 or more years. I traded in my 15 year old Civic when I got mine.

[Tyler Durden]

38. Actually it's the whole basis of the article.

I think keeping a vehicle for that long puts you (and ME, by the way) in an extremely small minority.

[Beaverhausen]

47. Wrong- most people with Hondas and Toyotas do keep them that long

I know that it's hard to believe since you only drive american cars, but these cars are built to last.

[CabalPowered]

49. I own a 94' Toyota T100 truck

with almost 400k miles and it still tows like a champ. I've never had a single problem with it.

[LSK]

41. can you provide us with a direct link?

Theres a million things on that site, I cant find it. x(

[leveymg]

5. Actually, GM and Toyota are corporate partners. Most of the parts in your

Saturn are sourced from the same sweat shops in Malaysia that Toyota buys theirs from.

They just stick a different label on it. Brand names in the auto industry today are little more than an accounting device. They're all global companies which are owned by the same cluster of corporations.

[Tyler Durden]

8. NOW, yes. 1997?

Nope. And THAT is the year of my Saturn. And I'd rather have my pubic hairs pulled one at a time than buy a new one.

[leveymg]

12. Started with the '83 Chevy Nova/Toyota Corolla joint-venture

See, http://www.heritage.org/Research/EnergyandEnvironment/bg288.cfm

Saturn was supposed to be the culmination of that joint approach to car production.

[Jackpine Radical]

7. But Jeez, if we didn't shop at MallWart we couldn't afford gas

for the Hummer.

Seriously, I don't think trying to boycott Wally World will ever have any effect on their nasty corporate policies. There are enough financially strapped people in the country, and the world, to make my buying habits kinda irrelevant.

The only thing that will impact the Walton empire is decent, pro-labor, pro-environmental, progressive legislation.

Our nearest store is a new MallWart. For some things I'd have to go 7 or 8 miles further to shop. I had a hard time going into that store for a long while, but have somewhat overcome my aversion because of the extra gas & time it would take me to fo somewhere else. Besides, "somewhere else" is likely to be run by a corporation that is distinguishable from MallWart only in that they are slightly less successful corporate predators.

[Tyler Durden]

10. THAT is the ticket.

Fix the laws and level the field.

Gonna happen? I doubt it.

and check the makers marks on target goods. "CHINA?" yep.

[Jackpine Radical]

30. Changing laws calls for an incredible effort.

Relying on mass action on a scale sufficient to actually bring about significant changes in a psychopathic corporate "person" like MallWart strikes me as totally futile.

Incredible efforts to change the legal landscape have happened before. The Progressive, labor, and civil rigts movements come immediately to mind as examples. Getting masses of people to take actions that run counter to their immediate (and perceived) self-interests seems to be a much more difficult, and rarer, proposition. Remember that the activists in the labor, civil rights, and progressive movements probably never amounted to 1% of the population, and in each of those cases the otential benefits to the participants themselves were much more obvious than is the case with boycotting MallWart.

[The Anti-Neo Con]

11. Priuses are a bit pricey.

I've also heard that having to replace the batteries is also expensive.

To the OP: If you want a fix for your oil-burning Saturn, swap in a 2.2L GM Ecotec engine. You'll get a stout motor that won't burn oil, will perform better, and get comparable gas mileage. I helped a friend do a 2.2L Ecotec swap in his '98 Saturn SC2...it wasn't too hard really (if you're mechanically inclined). He got the motor cheap from a totalled '05 Chevy Cobalt. Those Saturn engines are notorious for burning oil. My friend's stock Saturn motor was burning a quart of oil every 500 miles with 105,000 miles on it.

[skids]

14. Heard from who?

...because I haven't seen a single Prius owner yet that has needed to change the batteries.

[The Anti-Neo Con]

20. Read about it on an internet car forum.

They said the batteries cost around $2,000 or so. Is that true? I really don't know personally.

[skids]

28. That's probably about right.

Once you factor in the reate for selling back the battery core. Show me someone who has had to, though. There are people at 200K miles that are still on their first pack.

Here's the other part you are missing. Fifteen years from now (which is probably about when they will actually start to go bad in, say, a 2004) the price will be lower, and why replace an out-of-warranty manufacturer's battery when you can upgrade to a PHEV kit and get additional gas savings?

[susanna]

62. For the record,

that won't happen for about 9-10 years or so, but it will happen. Current hybrids are about what, tops, six years old? Check the news a couple years out.

[jsamuel]

15. from what I have heard, you get like an 8 year warranty on the battery

and so far almost no one has had to replace theirs

[LostinVA]

21. Replace what battery? I know about 10 people who own a Prius

They all have been problem-free, they all get great mileage, and they all have a very long warranty on their battery -- so being "pricey" isn't a problem.

[Warpy]

13. I find it hard to dis SUV drivers

even though I can't see around the damned things in my econobox. I know it's not so much WHAT you drive as HOW you drive. People who insist on living 60 miles out in the exurbs and who commute into town 6 days a week, 5 to work and 1 to shop, are burning more gas in an economy car than an SUV warrior who commutes 3 miles to work and a mile and a half to the market on Saturday does. Yes, he's driving a pretty silly vehicle and he looks like a dope when he roars up to the wilds of Albertson's. However, his carbon footprint is a bit smaller than Mr. Exurb's is.

While I may shake my head in disbelief at the people who buy four pairs of $20 shoes a year at Walmart instead of one pair of $60 shoes that will last more than a year, I realize that some people don't have more than $20 to spend, and by the time they save another $20, those shoes are timed to wear out and there is no way they can save more than $20 for a sturdier pair.

Likewise organically raised food. While it's best to support organically raised food and probably more healthful to eat it, there are simply some people who have to choose between eating bad food and not eating at all. I buy my prescriptions at Walmart, the only decent deal in town. I don't sneer at people who buy other stuff there. I know they generally have to.

So make your choice, hold your head high, and keep your long blue nose out of other people's business. Then insist they do the same for you.

[jsamuel]

17. a large portion of people who drive are neither in city or suburbans

but live in the middle of the country but have to commute because of the low population density. Have to go where the jobs are.

[SmokingJacket]

16. You do what you can.

It's not ALL about buying. If money is short, you go to the dollar store, but maybe you spend time writing letters to senators.

If you can afford a Tahoe -- it's better to buy a Prius. I can afford neither, I have a 12 yr old station wagon, but I walk to work most days. I turn off my lights and keep my heat low.

If you want to be PERFECTLY progressive, you need money to buy everything organic and fairtrade and whatever, but not everyone can be perfect.

However, my kids would have to be running around barefoot before I'd go into Walmart -- I'd have to be more desperate than I currently am, just because I hate that place so much. Anyway, Walmart's cheap, but it's not cheaper than a garage sale or Salvation Army.

I buy the store brand of coffee beans. You'd be surprised -- it's quite good.

[theboss]

18. I really can't run my life this way

I buy things I like at the best price I can get - without killing myself. Luckily, my tastes tend to run towards the "Buy Blue" mentality. (I much prefer Target over WalMart).

But who actually sits and calculates what it cost to make a car?

[deaniac21]

23. Tell me, is it true that most Prius drivers love the smell of

their own farts?

[LeftyMom]

24. About the oil burning thing

I have a '97 SW1 myself. I've found that the oil burning is almost eliminated if I use a full synthetic rather than a conventional oil. It's more expensive, but I keep an eye out for sales and buy a case when I see one.

Personally even if I could afford a new car :rofl: I don't think I could justify the purchase when I have a perfectly good and utterly reliable used car that gets mileage comparable to newer ICE vehicles. Hopefully by the time I need to get another car there will be some used models that will be a significant improvement over what I've got. Sadly, it probably won't be another Saturn, the hybrid VUE won't get any better milage than my wagon. :(

[nickinSTL]

27. So, you HAVE to shop at Walmart?

I don't have much money...but I won't set foot in Walmart.

I shop Target and KMart (not that they're great, but they're better) -

I don't drive a Prius because I can't afford a new car now...and when the weather is decent (that is, no snow/ice) I commute in my 1988 Toyota Corolla. When the weather is bad, then I pull out my 2001 Hyundai Santa Fe.

[jobycom]

29. I drove my Prius to Walmart Saturday night

So man am I a terrible person. (For the record, I really did.)

[Pathwalker]

48. Who the hell can afford a new car these days?

I've never owned a new car, and I doubt if I'll ever be able to afford one. I love my Kroger card, though, and use it often - but I go to East Lansing - Owosso's just too far.
Howdy, neighbor! :hi:

[Tsiyu]

31. No reason to fight about it

Do what you can. And do as much as you can.

Support local artists, farmers and businesses. When you do this, you help support your community.

I think every last one of us could make changes to benefit us all. You have to really think about where your dollars are going, and it's hard to always hand it over to the best people. It's difficult to break old habits.

Everybody just keep trying. Pat yourself on the back for what you've changed already. Pick the next change and start working on that.

I find when I concentrate on my ecological/social footprint and how I can go about making it smaller, I'm less likely to worry about others' choices.

Peace out

[darkism]

32. Better get rid of all your Japanese electronics...

...if their involvement in whaling is that abhorrent to you that you have to point it out and CAPITALIZE it.

[Tyler Durden]

33. My stuff crurrently comes from everywhere BUT Japan.

I looked it over a while back just for curiousity, and I saw China, Korea, Singapore, Malaysia, the Phillipines...even VIETNAM.

No "made in Japan."

[Fierce]

35. I drove a Prius for the first time a couple weeks ago.

It was the shittiest responding vehicle I've ever driven -- and I've driven a 1970 IHC pickup.

[Beaverhausen]

36. Yeah, that must be why there are waiting lists for people to buy them

:eyes:

[Fierce]

37. No,

it's just why I am not on a waiting list to buy one. Among other reasons.

[Lorien]

64. My best friend got one after decades of driving big American cars

and Camrys. He can't rave about it enough-he LOVES his Prius!

[LostinVA]

39. It handles no differently than a conventional Toyota

I've driven my friend's many, mnay times.

Nice try, though.

[Fierce]

40. I'm not clear on what you mean by "nice try."

I've driven a Prius. I thought it handled shittily. Perhaps my problem is that I'm unaware that conventional Toyotas handle shittily as well, and so I shouldn't be surprised.

[jsamuel]

51. huh? I have read from someone who doesn't even want one at all and they

said that they didn't even know it was a hybrid (driving their friends) until they were done driving and the friend told them it was a hybrid.

I suppose if you are looking for a sports car, you wouldn't go with the Prius, but from what I heard they handle just like a normal car.

[jobycom]

54. Odd, mine handles better than most cars I've owned.

Turns smoothly, rides smooth on the highway, accelerates faster than some six cylinder cars I've owned. Tops out somewhere over 80 on the Interstate. Very spacious inside. I can honestly say it's one of the best cars I've ever owned in terms of comfort and handling.

Did you drive a 2004+, or one of the older ones? The older ones tended to float on the highway when you hit 55.

[Fierce]

56. Acceleration and brakes were the main annoyance.

Acceleration was sluggish, and the brakes were very touchy. It was fine on the interstate at 75-80, though, but that wasn't much fun, since I can do that in my car and get the same MPG while I'm doing it, heh.

I don't know what year it was, although I do know it was a couple years old.

[jobycom]

58. I wouldn't trust those results. Might have been the car.

If it was before the 2004 model, it was a different animal. Those are the notchback models rather than the smooth hatchbacks. Maybe you drove one of them. They were good as an early attempt, but nothing like the newer model. The model starting in 2004 has more horsepower, a larger size, and much better gas mileage. I drove my Prius over 1100 miles over Memorial Day weekend, much of it between 75 and 80, and it averaged around 47 MPG. When I want to maximize mileage, I keep it around 60 (usually taking country highways instead of Interstates) and I keep the MPG over 50. If you've got a car that does that, you should spread the word, because I've owned a lot of cars, and driven them all hard (20-30K miles a year, sometimes more), and none of mine have come close to that mileage. I hear the VW diesels do, but I've never owned one.

I'd guess you drove a 2003 or before. Those did not accelerate as well, and floated. I test-drove one of them, and wasn't impressed, except for the mileage and emmissions. It was slower, and it floated at highway speed, making it feel hard to control. The braking was a little scary, because of the floating--it felt like it wouldn't stop sharply, and I have heard of people wrecking them because they slid more easily when breaking. The newer ones are nothing like that.

[skids]

65. My 2002 doesn't "float" ...

...and frankly I drove a new one and couldn't even tell the difference in HP. FWIW.

I'm very happy with it, other than the fact that it looks like it will be totally passed over by the PHEV mod companies.

[jobycom]

68. I only test drive one, so I'll defer to your greater experience

That was just my impression--it felt odd at highway speed. May have just been different from what I was used to at the time.

[skids]

71. The brakes certainly take getting used to...

The magnetic breaking is nuanced, so you kinda have to learn how to use the pedal.

[Jed Dilligan]

42. If your car is burning oil,

Not only are the emissions going to be especially bad, your car is probably in very bad shape.

I limit myself to living in places where affordable sustainable goods are available, if you can't do that, I won't judge you for how you shop. It seems like you're making the best available choices. I do find that a smaller amount of higher-quality coffee is more satisfying than a lot of cheap coffee.

I don't get the part about shoes and neighbors. Not important, but I can't tell whether there's someone you want to date or if you just think it's polite to wear nice shoes.

[Tyler Durden]

44. answers to your burning questions.

"Not only are the emissions going to be especially bad, your car is probably in very bad shape."

Yeah, the emissions aren't great, but the gas is being burned at over 50:1 to the oil. As far as the car goes, this is a common chronic non-fatal disease of old Saturns. Rings.

"I limit myself to living in places where affordable sustainable goods are available, if you can't do that, I won't judge you for how you shop."

Hey, Thanks for understanding. Michigan kind of sucks right now, and not losing my house is high on my economic calendar. Seriously, Sometimes we live where we must. Canada was a washout. Shame. They now have over 15 wind turbines within 10 miles of where the house was. It sells on Friday.

"It seems like you're making the best available choices. I do find that a smaller amount of higher-quality coffee is more satisfying than a lot of cheap coffee."

8 O'Clock is pretty damned good as cheap coffee goes. Besides, I get bean and grind in small amounts, and some of our caffeine addictions are worse than others.

"I don't get the part about shoes and neighbors. Not important, but I can't tell whether there's someone you want to date or if you just think it's polite to wear nice shoes."

No, she just owns a nice store, and the WIFE and I like to see our friends not go broke either if we can help it. Once a man who owned a store was asked by his friend for a heavy discount. The man replied, "My prices are fair, and besides, I have to make my money from selling to my friends, as my enemies don't shop here." And I don't need a date.

[LeftyMom]

46. It's a design flaw of Saturns of that era

they started to do it almost as soon as they rolled off of the lot, it's not a bad maintainance thing. As I mentioned upthread a synthetic oil largely solves the problem.

I have the wagon version of the same car, same year and everything so the engine is the same. It scores very well on emissions tests, it's in fine shape mechanically (135K trouble-free miles on a cheap American car is noteworthy these days) but yes it does burn a little oil. It's a minor design flaw. There are foreign cars with the same issue (gasoline engine VW New Beetles are especially notorious about it.)

[JVS]

50. I've seen prius-es parked at the walmart

[jsamuel]

52. me too

[Radical Activist]

53. I drive a Saturn, American made car.

Mine is also a '97. I won't drive a hybrid until one is made in America by an American company. I hope Saturn does soon. They have more American made and assembled parts than any other car on the market. I care about both the environment and wages.

[RB TexLa]

55. My '88 Isuzu Trooper runs great, 8 - 11 MPG and

there is no reason for me to care what someone else thinks of what I drive.

[DrunkenMaster]

57. it's all about doing what you can

I haven't driven to work in a year because I live about four miles away and ride my bike or take RTD...it is my contribution. My good friend has to drive a hugongous Land Rover (covered in anti-Bush stickers, btw) because of his job and its accessories BUT he just had a whole battery of solar panels installed at home and is feeding the grid. That is HIS contribution.

The truth is that there is no way out of contradiction and hypocrisy for progressives and anti-corporate folk these days, but we have to start SOMEWHERE. Pick your battles carefully and fight them as hard as you can.

[Maiden England]

59. BTW, I think you'll find it's spelled SHOPPERS (nt)

[Tyler Durden]

69. Picky, Picky, Picky.

Hey, you try to post when you've got freepers walking by the back of your open ended cube all the time!

[susanna]

60. Well dissected. I find the small battles every day. n/t

[Lorien]

63. My mom is a fundamentalist environmentalist

she lives on less than $800 a month. Has no debt. Never had a credit card. Single and supported herself for 44 years. She lives in a tiny post war home and drives a 20 year old car (Japanese but made in the USA). She carpools a lot, buys her clothes used, grows some of her own food, recycles quite a bit, plans to build her own straw bale solar home someday soon. She DOES NOT have money. She spent time living in rural China and learned that we don't "need" as much stuff as the MSM tells us we do.

Yeah, I know I'll get flamed for discussing my mom's lifestyle. She's another damned elitist who "choses" voluntary simplicity for the sake of the environment and her own economic well being. How anti-American!

[Rosemary2205]

66. Great post

A friend of mine and her husband took in 6 kids who's mom was shot - caught in the cross fire in a drive by. Add that to their own 3 plus 4 long term foster kids. They have an old Ford Fiesta as an errand car and just bought a 2000 "minibus" type van that gets about 8mpg at best. Some of her "progressive" friends that didn't know about the newish 6 kids busted her chops over the damage she'll do to the environment.

Me? I figure a FABULOUS couple like them doing what it takes to raise 10 extra kids earns them a few brownie points.

That and there's a reason we are told not to judge - we NEVER have ALL the facts.

[Hekate]

67. What do you mean, who keeps a car 14 years?! My youngest car is 16!

We own two Toyotas, both bought new. The oldest is 23 and showing its age, the youngest is 16 and good for *at least* 5 more years. Japanese whaling practices were not an issue when we bought them, good mileage and endurance were.

I've been holding out for a hybrid, but the surcharge makes them pricey for us. The non-hybrid all-electric cars I've seen in the past were priced so high as to make them toys for the affluent -- plus, the last time I looked at some models they had a 40 mile range and the nearest service outlet was 100 miles away. But yeah -- we test drove a Prius, and I'd like to own it or something similar if we can.

Good grief. I don't knock Wallmart customers -- I knock Wallmart's corporate practices that contribute to so many people *having* to shop there. Our local Trader Joe's has quite reasonably priced Fair Trade and Organic coffees, but not as inexpensive as the price you quoted for Wallmart's brand. I won't knock you for comparison shopping, either. No need to rant.

We all do what we can. :shrug:

Hekate

[Tyler Durden]

70. I've kept cars 12 years plus...

But the stats say you and I are in the vast minority, and that the buyers of upscale vehicles (write that, in my case, ANY new vehicle) don't keep them that long, and that most of them don't last 10 years on the road.

Here in the hinterlands, you buys what you can, and if it ain't there, you do without unless you get to "Town."

I read a post (before it was deleted) how someone who shall remain nameless said someone "...disgusted..." them for their buying habits. I have been lumped in that category of buyers, and it just got to be a little much.

[JNelson6563]

72. I've got a 93 Honda Civic

and nobody ever gives me a hard time. If a Prius driver did I would ask them what it's like to be able to afford a new car.

Elitist thinking is more common on "our" side than one might think.

Julie