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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:04 PM
Original message
Southern Baptists say wives must "submit graciously" to husbands...
and that if you drink you can not be a church leader.

The new leader, Rev. Frank Page, speaks of a "sweet spirit" as being a requirement for leadership. I will grant you that is far better if true than the previous leadership.

However, this submissive woman stuff is getting to be too much. I am no longer a member of that denomination, and I don't often see many who are anymore. I did see a couple the other day, and I mentioned the attitude toward women. According to them, more people are getting upset over the idea that they tell women how to act. I hope so, I really do.

Southern Baptists elect new leader

GREENSBORO, N.C. -- Frank Page is an outsider among the conservative leadership that has held tight control over the Southern Baptist Convention for more than a decade.

But the pastor from South Carolina cautions that his surprise election this week to the presidency of America's largest Protestant denomination does not represent a move toward the political middle for a group known for fervent opposition to abortion and gay sex, and its belief that the Bible is the unerring Word of God.

After winning election Tuesday over two better-known members of the SBC leadership, Page was quick to proclaim his credentials as a conservative. But he also was blunt about his determination to perform cosmetic surgery on the face that the denomination presents to the rest of the nation.

Asked how he would determine who would have a voice in Southern Baptist leadership under his presidency, Page cited "a sweet spirit" as the first requirement.


Here is the part that disturbs me. Baptists never approved of drinking or dancing or much of anything, but we are not in the 1950's here anymore. They told us we could not go see Elvis because he swiveled his hips too much. They lectured our parents for letting us go.

And now in the year 2006, women are still being told to "submit graciously" and drinking by church leaders is not permitted.

SBC declarations banned women pastors and declared that wives should "submit graciously" to their husbands. On Wednesday, a day after Page's election, the SBC's annual meeting adopted a resolution urging that anyone who drinks alcohol be barred from leadership positions.




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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Southern Baptists disapprove of sex while standing up cuz
it may lead to dancing... or so it goes.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
54. The way I heard it, "Why do Southern Baptists oppose sex?"
'Cause it leads to dancing."

I am a former Southern Baptist, was one all my life, but I left the church when it came out in support of a pre-emptive attack on Iraq. I couldn't believe it. It was the only church to do so.

I have always loved dancing, always have, always will. I also drink somewhat.

The basic lessons the Southern Baptists USED to teach, were good moral ones. Its sudden extreme right turn and jump into politics is immoral. I could not be a hypocrite and continue to support this denomination so I left, much to the amazement of all my family.

Churches were meant to feed people food for their souls, I believe, and not to become involved in politics. Political differences and brawls in churches are sometimes what break up congregations.
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pstans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. The American Taliban would like to turn the clock back to 1850
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Well, they couldn't turn it any further back than that...
since thier brand of psuedo-Christianity was invented in 1840 by John Darby.
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DODI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. At least in 1850 abortion was legal.
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. sounds like a blank check for abuse to me
what a shame, what we really need now is leaders who will trumpet the worth of every human
soul that God created not constantly defining who the elite is, who is superior, who is the
have and who is the have nots, who has the power and who doesn't.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. It is just that...a blank check for abuse.
I grew up in the "inner workings" of the SBC because my father was a very big part of the leadership. I knew the inside stories of pastors and their wives even back then. There was one I hurt for so badly. He verbally abused her, put her down constantly, and she had no one to turn to in that small town near our city.

She would have been instantly condemned for criticizing her husband.

The Baptist church does NOT look on women as equals.
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. it is so sad, we have a very blessed society
Edited on Sat Jun-17-06 01:30 PM by MissWaverly
we have material wealth and yet we are driven to meanness, pettiness, power grabs, etc.
I look for gentler, kinder voices to be heard, it is time. You can have religion that
promotes kindness. Jesus was not a mean, vindicative person, he reached out to everyone
and constantly helped the downtrodden and that included quite a few women. There are
those who constantly abuse those around them, I feel for the woman you described. My
father was an alcoholic and quire frequently when we tried to get help, we were abused,
it was our fault, if only we "took" care of our dad better, this would not be a problem.
No one took care of a dad better than my sister and I and his alcoholism was not our choice,
it was nothing we should have been blamed for.
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blue neen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
42. This is not love. These are not marriages.
This is legalized slavery.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #42
80. Yes, it's all about control. (nt)
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. The American Taliban.
Next thing you know they will requirer burqas.

For a likely scenario for the US if we allow the religious right to get more power, read 'The Handmaid's Tale'
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blue neen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
40. I know of Baptist churches in Florida that require the women to
wear long skirts. No slacks, shorts, or knee length skirts allowed.

Only skirts that completely cover their legs.

It makes me want to :puke:
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
71. The Talibornagain
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mumon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. What if....
as a husband, I say, "Don't submit to me."

The fatal flaw of all this bullshit is it can always be squeezed into the barbershop paradox.
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idgiehkt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. I heard this at both of my brother's weddings.
I will not attend another Baptist wedding because of it. At both weddings the preachers went on and on about how the wife was supposed to be submissive to the husband.

The hell of it is is that both of my brothers married domineering and manipulative women that rule the roost. One orders my eldest younger brother around like a child...he waits on her hand and foot, and she is completely mental and exhausting to be around. My other brother's wife has not worked A SINGLE DAY since he met her (she is in her mid-twenties) yet runs his bills through the ceiling. He is at the point of having the phone and cable turned of for lack of funds. She went out and bought a brand new car and 'gave' him her over ten years old previous car...he makes the payments on the brand new one, of course, since she has zero income, and she even 'lets' him drive it occasionally. The whole thing is a complete racket, but I guess they are okay with it since their wives are 'submissive'.

I think this is par for the course of the kind of dishonesty you get in a marriage with bullshit preachy rules like this. My brothers are both incredible people; softspoken, hard-working, and faithful to a fault, just the kind women like this would be on the lookout to work over.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. These men must have had a flag up for these women
but I have seen men do the same to women so I guess it is just the make up of people to find each other to fit the needs of what each wants.
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kevinbgoode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #26
87. I have often thought there were certain personality types who
perhaps shouldn't be allowed to be "married." . . .and I have one EX who would have easily fit the bill.

I feel terrible for your brothers' plight - they are obviously being used.

As for the patriarchal nonsense of the Southern Baptist Convention, I suspect they'll start losing membership - they only hurt christianity by attempting to paint it as a white male supremacist chosen people organization - and that just ain't gonna fly. . .
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Crazy Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
8. This particular baptist minister used to preach that exact.....
Edited on Sat Jun-17-06 01:13 PM by DaveTheWave
...same garbage. Now look where the POS is.

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- A woman who said she has been quietly suffering for six excruciating decades with memories of being molested by a former Jacksonville pastor breaks her silence after others come forward.
Dr. Robert Gray, 80, the former Trinity Baptist Church of Jacksonville pastor, was arrested Friday and charged with two counts of capital sexual battery after two of his alleged victims reported he abused them when they were 6 years old.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/9263540/detail.html
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Humor_In_Cuneiform Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
9. Seems like an argument against marriage for women.
The age of the "demure" female being a good role model had passed a long time ago, or so I thought.
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Joey Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
11. They truly are the American Taliban n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. And they blanket the South with their power....unfortunately.
There was a map posted here recently of the concentrations of Baptists in the South, areas with high numbers colored red. It was something to make you think. I need to find that map.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Is this it?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. That's it.
Edited on Sat Jun-17-06 01:28 PM by madfloridian
Pretty powerful in the South. Thanks for the map.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
98. Thank god I live in CT
I could be down there, except that I got the hell out of Texas when I was 18 and went off to college. My grandfather had been a Southern Baptist preacher but his son, my daddy, refused to kow tow (or even be baptized, which for them was early adolescence). That didn't go down well with grandpa and Daddy had to leave. He went to Dallas and became a successful businessman and my family never again set foot in a church (other than the Unitarian or for weddings or funerals). Even so, Texas in the late 1950s was pretty parochial and I loved New York!!
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. I assume this refers to Southern Baptists
Baptists founded Rhode Island and are still pretty strong in the NE, just not Southern Baptists.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Yes, there is a big difference.
The Southern Baptist Convention is a world apart from other Baptists in many areas.
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DarkTirade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #33
66. And I'm sure the differences started in the formation.
The original split between baptists and southern baptists: southern baptists insisted that the bible supported slavery. The rest of the baptists disagreed.
I think that should tell you something right there about baptists vs. southern baptists.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #66
73. And the original Baptists believed very strongly in religious tolerance
and the separation of church and state.

I think it takes real balls for the SBC to even call itself "Baptist".
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DarkTirade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #73
89. Yeah, I was originally raised Baptist
But it was up north, so I turned out okay. :)
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
37. This Shows them to be a Minority Even In the Bible Belt
Most of that red area is 25-50%, which is much lower than I thought it would be there.

They only have a minority in a few benighted rural counties here and there.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. It is the influence they have....25 to 50% can have big effect.
Look at that map in terms of influence. I was amazed at how few in our area, yet we have a concentration of other evangelicals as well a huge SBC megachurch...plus a lot of others. We have 4 bible colleges in our area, and one university that was previously a bible college but just is not called that now. It is spoken of as mainstream, but it most definitely is not.

They took over the South in terms of influence, and they did it well.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
79. They're the largest Protestant denomination in the US n/t
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Joey Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Oh, they are BAD here in Oklahoma
The Southern Baptists are awful here in Oklahoma. They are not happy with just worshiping. No, they are into HATRED in a scary way. Their main target is Gays. However, they really dislike Liberals too. One of the guys that I work with is also a Baptist minister. He plays tapes of sermons in his office. You should hear the hateful, mean spirited stuff these folks come up with.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
48. Sadly, that is true
In GA, we're to the point where you can't even be a Presbyterian, Catholic, or Mormon and run for a state-wide office.

You have to have the SBC's "blessing" to have serious political aspirations.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
57. Well, let's remember why they are called Southern Baptists
they broke away from the Baptist Church in Civil War times because they supported slavery (you know, that one line in one of Paul's letters that says slaves must obey their masters made the whole institution hunky-dorey with them). I wonder what other Baptist churches, such as the American Baptist Church, are like.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
46. When the Baptists
execute women in the soccer stadium for showing ankle, I'll agree with you.

The submissive wife thing is nothing new. It was preached even in the Episcopal Church when I was growing up. It's biblical, put forth by that friend of women everywhere, St. Paul. The Episcopal Church pretty much wiggled out of that position by interpretting the scripture a bit differently.
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
14. They WOULD say that wouldn't they the randy boys?
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. Ironically, the same biblical passage that deals with this,
tells husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church. In other words, his very purpose is to benefit her. -an equal submission, imv.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. Beyond equal
The passage--Ephesians 5--points out that Christ died for the Church, and men are expected to be willing to do the same for their wives. NO such requirement the other way around. But you don't hear male clergy preaching that often!
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
16. No change in policy. *YAWN*
The SBC has had this lunatic policy for years now.

They also are teetotalers and have been since my dad was a good Babtist back in the 20s and 30s. I do think, however, that their role in the nation's public live should be severly curtailed.
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idgiehkt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. it seems to me that they are more outspoken about it now, though
It seems like it has come more to the forefront on the insistence of younger men in the churches now. Or maybe it's that it stands out a little more now that society has progressed so much since the 70's and early 80's when I was in the church.
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
17. Thereby creating the personality known as "passive aggresive"..n/t
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Bob3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
20. two comments:
1. Q: Why do Baptists disapprove of premarital sex?
A: It could lead to dancing.

2. Molly Ivins quoted a Texas Newspaper editor from the early 1900's (I forget his name) who said "The only problem with baptists is that they don't hold them down long enough"

submit graciously - "in a pig's eye"
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
45. hahaha--I love Molly Ivins!
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meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
81. I'd personally LOVE to baptize some of those Baptists
a la Molly Ivins :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
22. And wear a corset all the time
must have an 18 inch waist... :sarcasm:

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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
24. I still check out the SBC site every once in a while.
Look what I found today in WRAP-UP: Speakers urge unity in SBC; messengers elect Frank Page new president; Rice says U.S. has 'moral' duty in world
Jun 16, 2006
By Michael Foust

From Adrian Rogers' widow,Joyce Rogers:
Adrian Rogers would not have been a part of what is going on in some parts of our convention today, getting narrower and narrower about very highly interpretive issues, she said to messengers, who responded by applauding for about 15 seconds.

He would try to convince you of his view, but not to exclude you from service and fellowship, or to prevent you from going around the world with Southern Baptists to share the Gospel if you disagreed on these controversial issues. And I challenge you on his behalf to graciously work for unity in the body of Christ.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't want to live in a theocracy under these wacked out Southern Baptists. :scared:
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
51. It's very odd to me that Rice, a single career woman (and pro-choice)
was addressing the SBC about "spreading freedom" and secular government.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. The rules are different for those of the ruling class.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
25. I don't like to use foul language, so I'm going to have to think carefully
how to phrase this... Hmmm. Thesaurus not any help. Oh well, putting this as genteelly as I can:

SCREW YOU, SBC. I don't submit graciously to anyone. God, whatever it may be, endowed me with a mind of my own, and I use it.

If my husband can show me that I am wrong in my reasoning, I will reconsider. But I expect the same from him if I show him when he is wrong. If we do not agree, then we agree to disagree and leave the subject alone.

The marriage vows I took did not include the word "obey" and I didn't give up my rights to my mind and body when I took those vows...
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
27. Is this the same church from which Jimmy Carter....
disassociated himself in 2000?
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
93. Yep
Him and many others. They formed the Baptist Cooperative Union.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
28. Why do they care if a leader drinks,
Edited on Sat Jun-17-06 01:35 PM by Eric J in MN
assuming he's not frequently drunk?

There is plenty of drinking in the Bible. Is there an anti-alcohol verse in the New Testament?
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
44. It's their interpretation of the drinking verses.
I grew up in abstinence churches, and we were always told that the word for wine actually covered wine and juice (completely ignoring the fact that juice didn't keep much beyond a few hours in that environment and that the Welching process hadn't been invented yet). The more wacky ones are 100% convinced that Jesus didn't drink alcohol at all.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #44
62. They're against drinking juice?
Edited on Sat Jun-17-06 04:10 PM by Eric J in MN
Just grape juice or all juice?
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #62
76. They're against drinking wine, so they interpret it as juice.
That wasn't clear in my post, was it. Hmm. I must have been typing too fast and didn't take the time to read through it again like I usually do. Sorry. :(
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
30. And people wonder why I hate the SBC. They are the American Taliban.
It's because they pull stupid shit like this. Arrgh, I dont want to go back to the 1800's, it's the fucking 21st century!
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
34. the IRC nuts who took over the Southern Baptists are after Protestants now
it's political.

This Sunday, May 21, on the national radio show State of Belief, Rev. Welton Gaddy exposes the coordinated effort to undermine mainline Protestantism -- and render America's largest denominations incapable of standing up to right wing politics.

In conjunction with the website Talk to Action, State of Belief takes an unprecedented look into the takeover of Americas churches, revealing the ugly truths, personal experiences, and exhaustive research of four leaders:

Dr. Bruce Prescott, Executive Director of Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists, is, like Welton, a veteran of the purges that marked the conservative takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention. The strategy, says Prescott, is to keep mainstream denominations in turmoil over wedge issues such as gay marriage, so that conservative leaders can be free to achieve their political and religious goals.

Dr. John Dorhauer, minister for the St. Louis Association of the United Churches of Christ, has seen congregations around him descend into in-fighting, provoked by right-wing propaganda. Dorhauer explains, What the politically motivated achieve is the silence of the religious conscience voice that has historically led this country....If you take out the 45 million people that are represented by the National Council of Churches, you are going to hollow out one of the cores of our nation's democracy.

Dr. Andrew Weaver, a United Methodist pastor and research psychologist, has traced the campaign against mainline Protestantism largely to the Institute on Religion and Democracy, a think-tank funded by uber-conservative industrialists such as Richard Mellon Scaife and the Adolph Coors family. Weaver says that the IRD and so-called religious renewal groups are funneling money in "a systematic effort to undermine mainline churches that still have democratic, transparent processes." The problem in countering these efforts, he says, is that "All of these traditions have niceness at the core; while we've been thinking it's touch football, they've been playing tackle."


for the podcast and more:

http://shows.airamericaradio.com/stateofbelief/node/146
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
35. Southern Baptist is a very violent religion
They cheer on imperialistic wars of aggression all over the world in the name of American dominion and advocate death and damnation for non-believers.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
36. These men are using religion as a means to dominate WOMEN
They been doing it for the longest time

Read the BIBLE...it starts from there with the Levites who controlled the Hebrews...

That was a start for the patri domination and it continues till today with offshoots...all have one thing in common, MEN rule over WOMEN.

Bad for Mankind and Bad for our Planet....
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #36
63. I don't recall ever having met any woman gullible to fall for such
a corny line as "be submissive because Jesus wants you to".
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #63
77. I have.
Usually, though, the line is, "God wants us to get married." It was a joke at our college, it was used so often. :eyes:
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
38. They are the real American Talibans
can burka be next?
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blue neen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
41. A man who requires his wife to "submit graciously" is NOT a man.
Real men want women who can love them freely.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
43. I don't mean to gripe, but they made that declaration years ago, not 2006
and the SBC is not the only denomination that endorses Biblical Inerrancy.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. And the new president of the SBC made it a point to reinforce it.
What's new is a formal declaration that those who drink cannot be in leadership positions.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Did he? I didn't read that in the link
When did he reinforce the "submissive" declaration?


"In 1997, the Southern Baptists adopted a resolution calling for a boycott of The Walt Disney Co. after it decided to offer benefits to partners of gay employees. Citing changes in Disney executives and more family-friendly entertainment, the SBC ended the boycott eight years later although the company had not changed its gay policy."

"SBC declarations banned women pastors and declared that wives should "submit graciously" to their husbands. On Wednesday, a day after Page's election, the SBC's annual meeting adopted a resolution urging that anyone who drinks alcohol be barred from leadership positions."
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Perhaps I misread, but I'm not digging around on their site anymore
today. I do know that they didn't backtrack on it.
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long_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #49
97. That's an interesting step for them to take
You know that to them "leadership positions" extends to secular political office.
It will be fun to watch the next batch of Republican nominees hide their moderate drinking from the view of the SBC troglodytes.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
58. They started the submissive thing years ago....they let it stand.
It is still in the record, sadly. It shows that though the new leader may like a "sweet spirit", he is not changing any views on women, abortion rights, or gays.

It is in the OP, by the way. It was kept in the record, and I never saw the word "graciously" used before. Which means it still stands firmly.

This is 2006, not the 50s. This denomination is going backwards. The Baptists here have joined with Catholics to get a marriage amendment against gay marriage. Now that is scary to me.

The head of the Southern Baptist Seminary, from my city, is now saying birth control to keep from having children is wrong, and against God's will.



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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. there are a lot of other groups besides SBs and Catholics who oppose gays
Mormons, Eastern Orthodox, Assembly of God, Adventists, Jehova's Witnesses, Pentocostals, Orthodox Jews, and a lot of African-American dominated Baptist churches also support the marriage bans.

I wish it was as clear-cut as the SBC/Catholics versus everyone else, but it just isn't.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
47. They're not the only ones.
Most non-denominational churches say the same thing, as well as evangelicals, other fundamentalists, and most pentecostals. This isn't unusual at all--the issue is whether they enforce it, which (in my experience growing up in the Church of the Nazarene) they usually don't.

Abstinence churches, as I call them, have issues with sin. They really feel that anything even close to maybe possibly sinning is extremely dangerous, so they prohibit all sorts of things that are fine for the vast majority of people. Drinking, face card playing (leads to gambling), gambling, dancing, sex outside of marriage, smoking, drug addiction of any kind (but almost always leave out food and caffeine for some reason)--they're all off-limits, or at least they were when I was a Nazarene. It makes you get creative on having fun. ;)
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
55. Why do they think only men can be ministers?
Do they really think that only men can be close to God? Well, if that is what they feel, let them go in peace--but don't let them bother those churches and faiths that allow women equal rights.

Rev. Ayesha Haqqiqa
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Nicole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #55
72. Because women are supposed to shut up in church
Can't preach if you can't talk.

It's all about that wonderful, submissive thing again. :sarcasm:
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #55
78. Only men were the apostles, is the usual argument.
Of course, the Gospels mention the women apostles, and Church tradition knows of more, but they just ignore all that.

Jesus was a man, Sts Paul and Peter were men, so only men can be used in that way. I get tired of that argument, too, frankly. I was there when God called a woman to be a preacher, and He used me to confirm it. Whenever I find a guy who just can't be okay with women preachers, I tell him that and watch him squirm.
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Hidden Stillness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
56. This Ugly Filth is Not Christianity
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
"But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galations 3:24-28.)

These people will all burn in Hell, to use the lingo, for setting themselves up as a "master" above Christ, putting a stumblingblock in the way of those who sought to find God, and by being an anti-Christ who repulses people from the true Christianity, which these people pretended but never knew.
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lildreamer316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
60. I'm *SO* proud my city is hosting this.
What a wonderful thing to add to our reputatuion for acceptance, diversity, and progress. :sarcasm:
Sorry to any Baptists here; but we are already stuck in the past badly enough; we don't need to boast about it. Way to go city leaders.
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The Flaming Red Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
61. That bunch of beer gutted fat assed hypocrites
need stupid women to submit.
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
64. It's not just the Southern Baptists, I'm afraid. My in-laws are Mormon,
and once, when hearing that my husband and I had had a particularly prickly disagreement, my mother-in-law suggested that he was "right, because he's head of the household".
Laughed my ass off at that, and so did Hubby, when I told him.
She's since not offered any marital advice...LOL.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #64
86. my in-laws too, and
that is definitely a very patriarchal religion ...
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
65. Bet the hookers in Greensboro had a good week


servicing the moral elite.
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lolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. Maybe not so much
I'm guessing this clientele, while numerous, is both demanding (they're all pretty damn perverted) and cheap.

Was it Jimmy Swaggert who was infamous for his 10$ hookers?
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
67. A real man wants a woman to want to be with him.
Forcing a woman to submit to you for whatever reason is nothing less than rape and slavery in my opinion. These fucking people are nuts.
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Biernuts Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
68. Not good enough - their wives should submit to ANY husband
as should their daughters (age 18 & up), preferably twins or triplets. Where are they meeting? Maybe I'll drop by with my suggestion.
:grouphug:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
69. "Southern Baptists go Dry"...more details about the drinking ban.
http://www.venturacountystar.com/vcs/religion_and_ethic...

GREENSBORO, N.C. "Southern Baptists who love serving the denomination but also drink an occasional glass of wine might have to decide which they enjoy more.

The Southern Baptist Convention on Wednesday approved a nonbinding resolution that urges that no one who imbibes be elected to serve as a trustee or member of any Southern Baptist Convention body. The call would apply to those nominated to serve on Southern Baptist seminaries, missions and other convention-wide boards.

The Rev. Frank Page of First Baptist in Taylors, S.C., elected Southern Baptist Convention president on Tuesday, said his and most Southern Baptist churches already ask their deacons to abstain from alcohol, and trust that they are telling the truth."
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. Jesus turned water into grape juice, after all
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #69
82. Often drinking isn't really part of their culture
My families were not Baptist, but Methodist. Although now Methodists don't really have objections to alcohol, they did at one time. My grandparents never had alcohol in their house. There was no alcohol at family functions. Sure, there was alcohol at some parties in high school, but it was a "bad" activity, not a normal part of social life.
I live in Wisconsin now where drinking alcohol is normal. Few people consider normal drinking a vice. Most of the people I know here grew up with alcohol at family functions.
As I understand it, in many areas where Southern Baptists are, drinking is even less of a normal activity than it was of my area of Ohio. Instead of drinking being social, drinking is a vice.
Since I didn't grow up with alcohol, I don't really find abstaining from alcohol to be a hardship or a violation of rights. If some one belongs to a voluntary organization and wants to be a leader, I don't see how such a thing would be considered a violation of rights, especially since everyone else typically isn't drinking either.
The whole women submitting to their husbands is wrong, however. Even if women joining this voluntary organization were fundamentally alright with this under ideal conditions (loving, competent husband who always acts in the families best interest), the incidence of abuse alone makes this completely bad advice, let alone rule for religion. As a feminist, I don't agree with it fundamentally anyway.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
74. Standard Republican method of courtship >>>>>>>>


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Brigid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
83. They are out of their minds.
For them, marriage means that a woman should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen. No, thanks.
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Corgigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
84. submit graciously" to husbands
Well this explains the SB divorce rate. My husband prefers when I "submit" in a craven carnal way.
heehee...
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Chuckle.
:D
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #84
88. :D i always wondered when SB husbands submit to their wives
in the bedroom? :think:
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 02:57 AM
Response to Original message
90. People and proclamations like that make me really glad
that I'm a lesbian atheist. :evilgrin:
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peekaloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
91. I need a drink after reading this article.
:beer:

}(
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tinfoil tiaras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
92. I go to a Baptist church (in the south)
but it isnt batshit insane like those folks are. We have 2 female pastors and political views never seem to matter (I've seen both Kerry and W the president in that church parking lot). Also we do ALOT of mission work. It's cool. It's what I think real Baptists/Christians are about.
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
94. Good lesson for all women and their daughters....never marry
a Southern Baptist.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
95. All the Babtists I know are ashamed that these people call themselves...
...Babtists.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
96. Is it ok for them to smoke pot?
Edited on Sun Jun-18-06 03:57 PM by GoddessOfGuinness
:evilgrin:

And what's with the "kinder, grntler" bullshit? I thought that went out with Bush I. :wtf:
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ProgressivePatriot Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
99. Thier kids must submit to daddy, too.,
Or at least 147 of them so far.

http://www.reformation.com/
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