Con: Fund my sex change

[Last Stand]

Not satisfied with his taxpayer-funded female hormones and laser hair removal, a convicted killer-turned-transsexual is again asking the state to pony up to complete his transformation into a woman.
Robert Kosilek, who is serving life in prison for strangling his wife, was back in federal court yesterday, again demanding that the state Department of Correction pay for his sex-change operation.
snip
Kosilek, 57, claims he is suicidal and needs the sex change for “medical” reasons. A psychiatrist testified in federal court that Kosilek - who is now known as Michelle - will kill himself if the surgery is not allowed.
In 2002, Judge Mark Wolf ordered the DOC to provide him with female hormones but refused to order the surgery. Kosilek has also received therapy and laser hair removal treatments behind bars but wants the state to pick up the tab for the operation.



http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=141529

He was granted Hormone therapy? How many school lunches does THAT cost a year (thousands?)
:spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:

[TheCowsCameHome]

1. Ann Coulter II. BTW, love those glasses and new hair color, Annie.

[maddiejoan]

6. I don't get it.

She looks nothing like Ann Coulter.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

15. Haha!

:eyes:

:thumbsdown:

[rucky]

200. Silly rabbit, that's Linda Tripp

wrong tranny con.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

2. Wow...could this reek any more of transphobia?

Apparently DU isn't all that progressive sometimes.

[Deja Q]

4. Oy! Some of my favorite musicians are transexuals.

My problem is, the transexual in this thread is locked in jail for doing something heinous. Strangling a person. His wife. Hardly a progressive action either!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

12. I don't support what she did but (and my comment was directed at the OP)..

I believe she should get the surgery, even if she is in prision, she does have some rights. GID (Gender Identity Disorder) is a real thing and it does cause far more emotional harm if they aren't able to transition.

Also, it is EXTREMELY offensive to call someone by their biological name and gender, if that is not what they identify as. It's a tactic often used to devalue the person and their experience being trans.

If they're citing security concerns as a reason for not getting her surgery, then after the surgery move her into a female prison, because that is WHAT SHE IS.

[LynneSin]

138. Ok, where in the state budget should the funds be pulled from?

Should we take healthcare away from children?
How about healthcare for our seniors?
Perhaps we can just kick a few disabled vets on the street.

That's not a cheap surgery this person is asking for and there are thousands more in Massachusetts who could use that money who are not convicted, murdering felons. Hell even if the funds came solely from the State Correctional budget, that's money for health care and other basic services being taken away for JUST ONE PERSON. Our local paper did an excellent article about the poor state of healthcare in our state correctional institution. So you're saying that we need to deprive the masses of basic healthcare for just one person? THat's not transphobia that's just common sense with spending our money wisely.

I have a difficult time feeling empathy for murderers. Perhaps this woman should be grateful that she is receiving the medications & hormones to maintain her transgender state because I know that here in Delaware, taxpayers would be outraged knowing that we barely can fund our inmmates basic needs especially with healthcare.

[wordpix]

141. does anyone know what a sex change operation + hormone therapy cost?

Just wondering. :eyes:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

143. It's mentioned further down but I'll say it here.

Hormones less than $400 annually. Surgery about $7000. However, that's the cost to a private person. It'd probably be cheaper for a prison. I doubt they pay full retail price on medications and such.

[dsc]

282. I find it literally unimaginable that the surgery is only 7k

I would think 10 minutes in an operating room would cost that.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

294. Very good cost analysis here...

http://www.tgender.net/taw/thbcost.html

Approximately US 1170 (all figures rounded) transsexuals had their primary SRS in 2001. (Many went to other countries for their surgery, but the study was restricted to US resident patient, having the SRS in any country.) The average MTF cost was about $10,400, and the average FTM surgery (including top and, for those who had it, bottom surgery) was about $17,900. MTF surgeries outnumbered FTM surgeries 740 to 430, leading to an average combined cost for SRS of $12,900.

The annual cost per insured US resident for SRS was $.06. Combined with the cost for hormones, doctor's office visits, and therapy, the total annual cost per insured for all THBs was $.39.

I also found this...

Vaginoplasty is currently required by law in order for women in our community to change the designation of their sex on many government documents. Therefore, it is considered in the eyes of the law to be medically necessary for our full social and legal recognition as females, in addition to its therapeutic benefits of bringing our minds and bodies into congruence.

I was actually surprised to find that because it's common for FTMs to not get bottom surgery and they're still able to legally change their sex to male.

[dsc]

300. even these slightly higher costs

astound me as to being low. I once paid 800 bucks to get four stiches in my finger. Frankly this stikes me as a pretty good bargain, particularly if they are put under general.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

304. Especially with how little it affects others with insurance.

Honestly, I'd rather have less than 50 cents of my taxes to get SRS for a murderer than to have my taxes funding the war and whatever the hell, * is planning.

[dsc]

305. I am insured now

and I certainly don't begrudge 50 cents. But heck I favor full government paid health care for all so why would I begrudge 50 cents.

[maddiejoan]

363. sounds right to me

7K for the vaginoplasty --another 3000 for the labiaplasty (which is considered cosmetic)

[LynneSin]

152. Does anyone know what it costs to treat HepC/HIV patients

Hell they barely get the treatments they need in prison

[maddiejoan]

187. 7,000 dollars

divided by thousands (let's be conservative and say 2,000?) would be $3.50 per prisoner. That wouldn't even buy them a pack of cigarettes.

[One_Life_To_Give]

218. Publicity we could do without

She is not what we want in a poster child. It's alot easier to support the teacher in NJ? Who had SRS over the break, at her own expense, and went back to substitute teach. There are also many deserving girls who need the surgery. But can't afford to have it done even in Thailand.

And since trans-men frequently opt to not have bottom surgery. I am not convinced of the necessity of Vaginoplasty when she can already live as a woman in all other respects. Save this specific case of living in a men's facility, but that is not likely to change even after SRS.

[Warren DeMontague]

222. We'd have plenty of money for our prisons

if we'd stop filling 'em to the brink with non-violent drug offenders.

I'm not saying that the state should go all out to fund someone's arguably elective surgery.. but I think that if you want to talk about spending money wisely, particularly with regards to our law enforcement and prison situation, there's a $40 Billion Dollar a Year (not counting the costs of incarceration, mind you) elephant known as the "Drug War" sitting smack dab in the middle of the room.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

230. I completely agree with you.

Hell, I know somebody who went to jail for nine months for buying a tab of ecstacy at a concert. The actual dealer walked because he ratted out the 30 or so people he sold to. They all ended up with jail time.

[Warren DeMontague]

233. Well, that sure makes me feel safe.

Meanwhile, you can molest little kids and be a free man, as long as you're a Priest.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

236. Yep. Just gotta move the priest back and forth a bit.

And wasn't it a few days ago when there was an article up about a child molester who was set free because he was "too small" to be in prison, even though in many states a kid can be convicted as a an adult and sent to prison.

[liberalhistorian]

341. It's extremely offensive for you to totally

minimize what she has done, the fact that she's a MURDERER, and to expect public funding of her sex change operation when public funds are drying up and so many millions of others can't get the health care they need due to cost. THAT is what is offensive.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

344. Sorry, but I don't see how I minimized what she did?

[maddiejoan]

7. I agree.

As a transsexual I am deeply offended. As a liberal , I'm horrified.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

13. I get really pissed off by the rampant transphobia around here sometimes.

It always seems directed at MtFs, but then again most people seem to not even know FtMs exist.

But you do get a big DU welcome from me!

:hi: :hug:

[myrna minx]

83. Hear hear.

I cannot believe how trans people are devalued here. :cry: I have some friends that are trans, and as if that isn't difficult enough, to be derided by the "tolerant" faction of American people is so hurtful. Everyone who doesn't understand trans folks should watch Venus of Mars...
http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/movie.html?v_id=309300

http://www.prettyhorses.net/

or they should check out a Lynn Breedlove show.
http://www.lynnbreedlove.com/

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

87. "Boys Don't Cry" is a good one.

The first time I saw it I was with my boyfriend at the time, an FtM.

[FuzzyDicePHL]

16. Nope it sure isn't

I've been attacked before for suggesting that implying Coulter is a transsexual is hateful. I still speak up, but I now accept that trying to change the minds of folks who insist on continuing that insensitive comparison is like trying to change the minds of the backwash 29% to get them to believe that Bush** is a liar and does not have their best interest in mind. A person and their ignorance are not easily parted.

[Yollam]

31. So wait, it doesn't bother you that law-abiding trans people have to...

...spend a fortune on surgery and hormones and this guy/gal wants it for free, on the taxpayer dime? Maybe when it gets to the point that all law-abiding trans people are having it okay, but making cons the priority?

Uh-uh.

Having genitalia you're unhappy with is hardly the worst indignity one suffers in prison.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

33. No, I feel that all transgendered people should have affordable treatment.

Including prisoners.

Some people cannot afford their cancer treatments/AIDS medication, does this mean you don't believe prisoners should recieve cancer/AIDS treatment until all Americans also can get it affordably?

[Yollam]

34. HIV/AIDS is life-threatening.

I would have to make an exception there, but no, I don't think we should be paying for things to make criminals "feel better" about themselves, whether it be rhinoplasty, liposuction, or GR surgery.

The guy is an asshole, he should NOT be rewarded for it.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

38. Yeah, she is an asshole.

However a sex-change is a medical need, rhinoplasty isn't. There's a transexual on this thread. I'm sure she'll agree with me that it is a life-threatening need.

SHE is not getting rewarded by having a sex-change. SHE is getting what SHE needs.

[Yollam]

43. Point taken on the gender pronoun.

But not on the necessity of the surgery. Imprisonment alone is life-threatening in that context. Not just the risk of being killed. Many find it too much to bear and take their own lives. It's not supposed to be a picnic.

There is a transsexual on the thread who thinks it's a life-threatening need. Okay, so I disagree with both of you on that point, then.

[maddiejoan]

56. I have a name you know.

I don't THINK it's a life threatening need. I KNOW it's a life threatening need.
This has been dragging around Courts since 1993? For a $7,000 dollar operation?

Now THAT'S a waste of money.

Sheeeesh --the average prisoner probably has dental bills that exceed that.

[Yollam]

59. I didn't know the poster was referring to you.

At any rate, I've addressed the other aspects of the case elsewhere.

My position is not anti-TG, it's anti-murderer.

[maddiejoan]

69. So if a murderer needs all his teeth yanked out?

Because they are rotting away -- assuming to be conservative 20 extractions --ya know just to remove the pain.
No crowns --and he can make dentures in woodshop himself --let's go super cheap.

a tooth extraction costs about $500 --so 20 teeth would be $10,000 --a vaginoplasty costs less than attending to a mouth full of rotten teeth.

[Yollam]

76. Rotten teeth are also physically life-threatening.

People do die from untreated dental problems, and the pain is terrible.

Emotional pain is to be expected in prison, and usually well-deserved.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

81. Suicidal feelings are physicall life-threatening. nt

[Yollam]

109. Something to consider before murdering one's spouse. NT

NT

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

114. There's an article posted way down in the thread.

She claimed it was in self-defense. Who knows? It's funny how, on one hand, you're advocating "therapy" but then you're saying that it's no big deal if she's suicidal. So you want her to get help, but not what she needs? And it's okay, if she's suicidal, because she murdered a spouse (possibly in self-defense).

[Yollam]

118. You're confusing me with another poster. I never suggested therapy.

I consider myself pretty progressive on TG issues, as well as GLBT issues, but on crime issues, I'm a bit of a neanderthal.

Prison is a shitty place, and to a degree, it should be. I'm sure the jury heard her claims that it was self-defense, and they didn't buy it. That's the way the system works.

[ronnykmarshall]

171. Possibly in self defence?

Uh, she STRANGLED her wife to death!!!

I can't believe people are defending this asshole.

[BeTheChange]

267. Indeed.

Honestly, I have no sympathy for someone who strangles their partner. 7k would feed ATLEAST 2333 lunches to kids. That is 77 months of lunches for one child.. 6 years.

6 years of nourishment is worth way more then some 57 year murderers desire to be a woman.


And the people who are bitching that this is somehow about transphobia should get a freaking grip. Id no more approve of John Bobbit using Taxpayer money to get his dick sewn back on and he is a heterosexual.

[ronnykmarshall]

318. What I question is this.

For all the supporters of transgender rights, do they not take into account that the woman that was murdered was a victim of an abusive spouse? I guess because the asshole had gender ID issue that makes it OK. Hmmm? Sounds like the same argument of the "gay panic" defense to me.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

322. There are abusive partners within all sorts of relationships.

There are abusive lesbian, straight, trans, gay relationships. It doesn't matter and I'm not sure what you mean by this post at all. Where is anyone saying it was okay because of GID? How is it anything like the "gay panic" defense?

[ronnykmarshall]

343. Just keeping you on the edge of your seat.

Ya know, with more asinine responses.

[maddiejoan]

365. How do you know it was Michelle that was the abusive one?

I was married to an abusive wife, who took advantage of my low self-esteem from my GID.

[maddiejoan]

367. A heterosexual?

Well if you'd deny even a heterosexual I really need to rethink my position!

:sarcasm:

[BeTheChange]

372. What a wonderful way to load words that werent meant that way.

The point is, Im sick of hearing people bitch and moan that total fucking incompetant deviants whatever their sexual preference, gender, race, etc somehow deserve better treatment then then the average american because they have been idiotic/sick/twisted/wasted and gotten themselves incarcerated. Im not into a hell of alot of "bonus" humanity for murderers. Anything beyond food, a cell, a bed, and a place to defecate is bonus to me.

I have no sympathy for a man.. yes, a freaking man is what he was when he strangled his wife, that uses his hands to squeeze the life out of someone he was supposed to love. If you want to twist that into sexual identity bashing, I could give a damn less.. Sarcasm sign or not.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

374. She was always a woman. Her body just didn't line up with that.

Also, sexual identity and gender identity are two totally different things.

[BeTheChange]

377. This is ridiculous...

and Im done with it. If anyone finds another situation of a nonmurderer and would like to discuss the societal view of transgender issues, awesome.. But as far as this is "human" is concerned this is truly enough time wasted.. and those hormones were enough money wasted by the American tax payer.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

380. Go over to the "Gender is not a Choice" thread in GD then.

Bye.

[maddiejoan]

378. And I have no sympathy for you.

I'm quite positive if you met me you'd be sure I was female, and then upon learning I own my own penis you'd call me a man.


She is already getting "special" treatment. She's a woman incarcerated in a male prison. That's pretty "special"
Do you think that's fitting? Shouldn't she be in a female prison?

Of course not --- she's a man, baby.

[wordpix]

142. will changing one's sex really make one feel less suicidal if one leans

toward trans-genderism?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

145. According to my trans friends, yes. nt

[liberalhistorian]

352. So a murderer who strangled his wife

feels suicidal? Boo-fucking-hoo.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

357. They still have to keep her on suicide watch.

From a taxpayer's point of view, it'd be cheaper to let her get the surgery and put her in a women's facility than to have her on suicide watch for God knows how long.

[woo me with science]

298. Doesn't she have to prove some sort of emotional stability

to qualify for this kind of surgery anyway? I wouldn't think that being on the verge of suicide would help her case much.

I doubt anyone wants to approve a surgery because someone threatens to commit suicide if they don't get it.

[SPKrazy]

303. In The Real World, Yes

emotional stability would be a required criteria to have to be approved for the surgery

[ronnykmarshall]

168. Let them eat soup!

[readmoreoften]

246. Maddie Joan! You're back! Yay!

Maybe you've been here all along, but I haven't seen you for awhile. Happy to see you!

Yes. The article in the OP is transphobic. If we're going to deny prisoners psychological and bodily integrity, let's do it across the board: no suicide meds, no teeth pulled, no HIV treatments, no nuthin. The taxpayers can't be bothered with that.

[liberalhistorian]

354. HIV, cancer, bad teeth, are all life-threatening

major health conditions. Needing a sex change operation is not. We have enough trouble finding funds for treatment of life-threatening conditions, why should taxpayer funds be used for a sex-change operation and hormone therapy for a jailed convicted murderer? Get a grip.

[readmoreoften]

479. Glad to know that you're an expert on the subject.

How about getting rid of the beauty salons and gyms we have in prison then? Sorry, I know a little more about this subject than you since my partner is transgendered. It is hardy frivolous. Telling me to "get a grip"? I absolutely LOATHE people like you-- the kind of narrow-minded arrogant fools who drive thoughtful people off this board.

[im10ashus]

73. Some of the "trans-phobia" types need to see "Southern Comfort"

It's a documentary with my dear friend Lola who is a male-to-female transgendered person and her boyfriend Robert was a female-to-male transsexual. Robert didn't have his female reproductive organs removed because he was post-menopausal. Well, Robert developed ovarian cancer and by the time he could find a doctor to treat him, it was too late. The cancer had spread. So yes, I feel nauseous anytime I see transgendered people being made fun of here on DU.

:rant:

[Yollam]

113. I would never make fun of TGs but murderers can rot in hell for all I care

Gay, Straight or TG, I have never had much tolerance for killers. It was only in recent years that I finally gave up my support for the death penalty, and even that was ONLY because we cannot be 100% sure that all convicted killers are guilty, and because it is not applied fairly.

But if there were a way of showing perfect incontrovertible proof, I would be in favor of it. Not for the sake of "an eye for an eye", but simply for the sake of removing dangerous, bad people from the population and the gene pool.

[ronnykmarshall]

174. Word!

I'm not crying any tears for this murder.

[madmusic]

243. Heh-heh, he said "gene pool."

[LynneSin]

140. I've seen "Southern Comfort" and cried my eyes out from it and yet...

..I still think this surgury should be turned down. This isn't transphobia, this is a criminal getting preferential treatment when there are so many other TGs out there who cannot afford this surgury.

And if you think you're offended by this 'transphobia' how do you think the rest of us feel by these horrible, and unfounded accusations to our believe that as a criminal this woman is not justified to having the surgury. Our tax dollars barely cover the basic needs of our prisoners and we need to pay cover those first.

[im10ashus]

167. I agree wholeheartedly.

I don't think we should be providing that monster with a paid surgery. My point was to address certain types of trans-phobia that can be quite prevalent here. I hope I wasn't coming off as being "supportive" of the murderer, because that wasn't my intent. :hi:

[LynneSin]

180. And I hope that I'm not coming off as "transphobic" either

I don't think any DUer here would deny the rights to a citizen. But to a convicted criminal, it's a different story.

[im10ashus]

192. You aren't at all.

I see where you are coming from on this and you and I are in complete agreement on that. :-)

[LynneSin]

196. As Ari Goldstein would say on "Entourage"

Let's Hug it Out!

:pals:

[im10ashus]

201. LMAO!!!

Hug away, LynneSin!

:pals:

[LynneSin]

203. Well the actual phrase is "Let's Hug it Out Bitch"

with Bitch being a term of endearment. But since I'm really just getting to know you I wasn't quite sure if we were on the "Bitch as a sign of endearment" level yet.

[im10ashus]

207. I would consider it an honor to be your bitch.

B-)

It's very endearing.

[maddiejoan]

251. would that include all the DU'ers

who regularly use transgendered as a derogatory remark?

[liberalhistorian]

356. Exactly,

couldn't have said it better myself!

[SmokingJacket]

90. Well, my trans friend had to wait a LONG time for surgery.

She's still waiting and saving up. It is a *bit* galling that this killer might get surgery before my friend, on the tax-payer's dime, while my friend does not.

I'm currently under-insured and if I were to get depressed, say, which I do, I wouldn't get any kind of treatment. But if I were in jail, I would. That's not "right," at all, but denying criminals health care would make our prisons would be even more inhumane than they already are, which isn't right either.

The fact is, convicted killers have a right to better medical care than ordinary citizens. The best way we can change that is not to deny medical care to prisoners, but to somehow offer everyone, criminal or not, access to the same level of care.

If we had universal health care, this story wouldn't raise a single eyebrow.

[maddiejoan]

104. excellent post!

[wordpix]

159. I do think one should go through rigorous assessment before SRS

A close family member is considering it and I'm afraid for her. It seems she will need multiple surgeries---breasts and womanly parts removed and penis implanted. There are numerous possibiltities for lifelong complications from such surgery. I really think she should consider this long and hard for many years with professional help, in case her unhappiness does not stem from GID but from other issues, which is certainly possible.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

162. I'm sure HE (!!!!) has been considering it for a long time.

In order to just go on hormones (which is done before surgery), they need to be in therapy for a long time, live as the identified sex for a year, and basically jump through a bunch of hoops. Just finding a doctor to do this can be extremely difficult in some parts of the country.

Trust me. He isn't going into this blind and it is an EXTREMELY minute chance that he's wrong.

Another thing, the best thing you can do for him right now, is to stop calling him she. Use male pronouns and his male name, because that is who he really is.

[troubleinwinter]

211. If your cousin

wants and needs this surgery, and receives it, you should be joyful for him. It is not for you to weigh it, judge it or second-guess it. Support him with joy and love if he gets the chance to have this part of his life as it should be for him.

[SmokingJacket]

227. I'm no expert on this issue, at all, but I would guess that gender

reassignment surgery is one of the most medically complicated and emotionally powerful experiences a person could have. Lots of excellent counselling in such a situation can only be for the good.

[pitohui]

387. wordpix

one of my friends went the other way, from male to female

she was not willing to wait the time required, she was quite old enough at age 50 thank you, and she went to thailand for the surgery

she has been very very pleased

i think in the end we have to trust that our loved ones know themselves best

i know the fear, for instance i recently had great fear that a much older friend of mine was getting a gastric bypass, but you know what? he is doing splendidly well and loving his new body at age 68

so we have to get past our fears and negativity and hope for the best i think, but god i know how scary it can be any time a friend or family member does something to the body that we think "elective"

we need to think positive, most of the time it IS for the best, side effects are the exception not the norm

on edit -- i don't want to crap on the posters who think "more" counseling is good, it's just that, you know what, after a certain age, counseling is just a jobs program and you don't have time for that, damn few counselors have themselves had the surgery and thus they really have very little of value to add in my humble view (please don't brickbat me too hard about the neck and shoulders, ya'll, this is just opinion not trying to tell anyone what to do here)

[liberalhistorian]

348. Cancer and AIDS are life-threatening, catastrophic

illnesses. Sex change operations to make a prisoner feel better about him/herself most certainly are not. And major illnesses are far more important than sex changes and hormone therapy.

[maddiejoan]

42. Since you mentioned it.

" Having genitalia you're unhappy with is hardly the worst indignity one suffers in prison."

It's pretty goddamn close.

[hlthe2b]

45. Debating whether tax $$ should pay for the surgery?

is transphobia? That is the point of the article. The comments about Coulter being made--well, Ann Coulter has made herself fair game with her hate speech, if you ask me. The comments are not necessary here, but, I would try not to overreact by defending Coulter.

I'm sure this individual is suffering emotionally from a need to make the conversion, but they are, after all, serving a life sentence for murder. If we don't provide sex change surgery for all the young teens and adults who are not incarcerated, and similarly suffering, how can we condone providing it only to this individual?

As for tax dollars paying for the surgery, I can not condone that when so many of Americans have no access to health care. I also have a hard time with death row or life inmates getting transplants, when those who are not incarcerated are left to die, but that is a responsibility that we have to face. But, the right thing is access for all-- for this and every other needed health care procedure. Unfortunately, that is not in the cards in the immediate future.

:shrug: Edited to correct my misimpression that this inmate was on death row, rather than serving a life sentence for murder.

[Dorian Gray]

60. Is it transphobia

to believe that the state shouldn't have to pay for an incarcerated criminal's sex change operation?

[maddiejoan]

93. Yes.

Yes it is.

[SPKrazy]

258. Fine, Why Don't YOU Take Up A Collection

I'd rather my tax dollars went to pay for helping people who aren't in prison for killing someone.

And this isn't like "any other surgery" that people have been claiming.

It is elective surgery.

They can keep him from killing himself

He can get therapy to deal with the fact that he won't be able to have the surgery.

And he can live with it.

[liberalhistorian]

358. Oh, bullshit. Pure,

total bullshit. That's like saying it's sexism for not wanting to use public funds to pay for a young, perfectly healthy woman's hysterectomy because she never, ever wants to have kids. Give me a fucking break!

[One_of_8]

153. In my mind, no

it's not transphobia. There is a limited budget for inmate healthcare. This individual was found guilty of murder, so that's why she's in prison today. One of the repercussions of her actions is that she is now subject to the health care provided by the state to inmates. I guess where I differ from some on this thread, is my disagreement with the statement that this operation is necessary to save her life. I understand the psychological implications of her feeling trapped in a man's body. It appears that the judge ordered some pallitive care in the form of hormones, etc. But the rights/wishes of one should not trump the rights/needs of the many, i.e., the rest of the inmate population to be covered by the budgeted amount for medical services.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

160. Even ignoring that it's a prisoner wanting surgery.

the article is written in transphobic language and many of the posts here are transphobic. Calling her s/he, he, IT! That's transphobia. Calling Anne Coulter a man? That's transphobia. It's the last acceptable group to truly discriminate against.

[One_of_8]

215. I see your point

My statement may not have been clear, or perhaps I did misunderstand the actual question. What I meant to convey was that I did not think it was transgender-phobic to deny this inmate's request for a sex change operation, at the taxpayer's expense. At least, not based on the reasoning I gave.

I can only guess at what you experience in your life. However, and not to belittle anyone who feels disenfranchised by society, I don't agree that transgendered people are the last group of people who it is still okay to discriminate against. Obese people, or even people who are merely fat, are discriminated against in many subtle (and not so subtle) ways all the time. People who are unattractive too. Mothers-in-law. People with obsessive-compulsive behaviors. In short, almost anyone who in some way stands out as different, is subject to discrimination and/or being the butt of jokes.

I'm sorry for this individual in that she feels trapped in a man's body and desperately wants to undergo operative procedures to correct what she feels is nature's mistake. But I still don't agree that the cost should be funded by the taxpayers, who are already funding the cost to house this inmate due to committing a murder. I simply don't agree that taxpayers should foot the bill. If and when she is released from prison, hopefully she can marshall the funds to obtain the operation she wants.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

347. You must not be an atheist.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

351. I'm not an atheist, but I'm also missing the connection?

[NMMNG]

460. This is what EorC was referring to

<snip>
Atheists are America's least trusted group, according to a national survey conducted by University sociology researchers.
Based on a telephone survey of more than 2,000 households and in-depth interviews with more than 140 people, researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, homosexuals and other groups as "sharing their vision of American society." Americans are also least willing to let their children marry atheists.

<snip>
"I know atheists aren't studied that much as a sociological group, but I guess atheists are one of the last groups remaining that it's still socially acceptable to hate," Foley said.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x72968

[slackmaster]

172. Absolutely not, IMO

Gender reassignment is elective surgery.

I wouldn't want the state paying for an inmate's nose job or vision correction either.

We don't pay for elective surgery for indigent free citizens. Why whould we pay for it for a prisoner?

[SPKrazy]

257. Oh Horseshit!

It's common sense to think this is ridiculous.

It isn't a medical emergency

They can prevent him from killing himself, give him therapy to deal with the fact that he isn't going to get a sex change in prison.

He should have thought of all this before killing someone himself.

What utter bullshit to say this is "transphobia"

[maddiejoan]

264. all of which will cost more than the surgery.

It's obvious then that your issue isn't cost to the taxpayer. You are willing to spend more money to keep a penis then to proceed with the psychiatrist's reccomendation for a cheaper more effective solution.

[SPKrazy]

299. Cheaper than transgender surgery? More Effective?

cheaper than putting him in a solitary cell with no shoelaces or belts, or sheets so he doesn't hang himself and giving him cheap generic antidepressants, and psychotherapy to deal with the grief?

How the hell do you figure that this is more expensive?

Prisons have therapists, or better yet, chaplains.

Older antidepressants are cheap.

In the end, if he suicides, then that is what he is gonna do anyway.

I disagree with the psychiatrist's opinion that we should give it to him or he will commit suicide.

One of the criteria for approving a medical procedure is that the person is stable enough to handle it.

He doesn't sound too stable to me.

but then, I don't want to spend one dime more on him than is already being spent.

[maddiejoan]

307. How much do you think a vaginoplasty would cost the state?

How much do you think a therapist would cost?

How much special accomodations?

How much do you think anti-depressants?

BTW --it's SHE --not HE --SHE

[SPKrazy]

316. Let's Think

Chaplain-there anyway to do therapy

special accomodations- solitary confinement-suicide watch- done all the time

anti depressants

Trazadone- $20 bucks a month tops at doses for antidepressant for the prison system

Vaginoplasty- too fuckin' much however much it is!

[maddiejoan]

319. GID requires a lot more expert therapy than a Chaplain can offer.

Solitary confinement while done all the time adds approximately 30,000 per anum to a prisoner's bill.

Trazadone is incredibly expensive compared to estrogen then.

vaginoplasty 7 grand. Why that's a saving of over 20,000 for just the first year. Oh! it's a life sentence!

Michelle is only 57 now --let's tack on conservatively another 600,000 then.


Thanks for saving my tax dollars for me.

vaginoplasty and shipping her off to a woman's facility seems like a good deal to me.

[SPKrazy]

323. Well You Go Right Ahead And Contribute

and have her vaginoplasty

personally I don't think that a person who says they will "kill" themselves if they don't get their way is stable enough to have the surgery

but you are dead set on trying to change my mind and it ain't happening!

I truly could care less about Michelle and her little problem.

She killed someone and she is in prison for it.

Tough Shit Michelle

I got problems of my own and I'm not asking the government to fix it for me.

And I will proclaim your logic as bizarre as you think that Michelle's problems will end when she has a vagina

she is still a killer, and a manipulative personality, who will cost taxpayers no matter what happens to her genitalia

[maddiejoan]

327. So don't give her the surgery. I don't care.

What's your objection to her being housed in a womens prison? Any objection?

[SPKrazy]

328. That Is For Someone Who Has To Live With That Decision To Make

not me

whatever

[maddiejoan]

331. You have no problem deciding her medical fate though?

Why is where she goes to prison not your decision but whether she gets an operation is?

[SPKrazy]

334. You Know, Ultimately It Isn't MY DECISION About Any Of It

but I have an opinion

but you knew that

and your little tit for tat (no pun intended) with me is now over

thanks

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

324. A chaplain is completely unprepared to deal with trans-issues. nt

[SPKrazy]

329. Mental Health Chaplains, Or Prison MSW Therapists

who are already there are adequate to deal with those issues

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

333. TGs have special needs. Not every therapist is qualified or willing to

help them. I see you're a social worker. Frankly, I find that quite disturbing and I hope that no transgendered people have to deal with you. I'm not talking about a murderer transexual, I'm talking about any transexual. I really don't think you could deal with them in any sort of un-biased manner.

[SPKrazy]

423. You Don't Know Anything About Me

other than what you think you read

Who knows, I might be a transgender myself.

I just don't want my tax dollars paying for a murderer in prison to have an operation.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it

and next time you think you know something about someone remember that unless you actually know someone, you are speaking out of your ass and out of total ignorance.

[liberalhistorian]

359. You gonna call them transphobic, too,

since everything and anything anyone says is automatically "transphobic" in your eyes?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

366. Maybe they are. Maybe they're not.

I'm just saying that they're probably not experienced in transgendered-issues. If a mental-health chaplain or prison therapist has legitimate, unbiased experience, then great! They can be hard to find among non-prison therapists, so statistically it'd be unlikely to find one in a prison. That is all that I meant by that.

[SPKrazy]

425. Part Of The Problem With Your Perception

and that of many people who are transgendered (not that you are or aren't) is that an assumption is made that a therapist or a chaplain "won't understand" unless they pass a litmus test

I'll tell you what

when someone is in prison for murder, they don't get the "experts", because they aren't going to come for what the prison is going to pay them. So you get the dedicated people who are trying to help people who in prison for the most part don't want help.

I have a friend who just left a prison therapist job. The number one thing going on for her clients in prison was who was who's "bitch", literally. And they pulled out their genitalia and masturbated for her and any visitor that came into the facility. She finally said that she decided she didn't go to school for this and quit.

Now how many therapists who are "specialists" in transgender issues are going to come to a prison to work.

So, they get what is there. And my guess is that a person who is willing to put up with that is either very dedicated and would do well with anyone tolerance wise, or they would be so burned out they wouldn't care.

Hopefully for the sake of the person in prison it is the former and not the latter.

But to get picky in prison, well, I guess it is just tough shit for Michelle.

And my level of tolerance for this thread, and your ridiculous assertions that we're all transphobic if we don't agree with you is done!

[SPKrazy]

424. No Doubt

I've had it with this bullshit

we're all transphobic if we don't agree with this person

[Name removed]

289. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberalhistorian]

340. Oh, please! Why is it "transphobia" to point

out that it's wrong to demand public funding of a sex change operation if you're a prisoner in jail for MURDERING your wife. Millions of people in this country have no health insurance at all and limited access to desperately-needed medical care, while millions of others are underinsured or suffering financially even with insurance due to the astronomical cost of "health" care. So, why should a jailed murderer get public funding for a sex change operation? Give me a fucking break.

[readmoreoften]

480. It's transphobic because according to your logic...

someone on medicaid also should be denied SRS. Would you have a problem sending a teen on medicaid to a dermatologist for serious acne? You are trivializing the experience of TG people and reducing SRS to some frivolous elective surgery. Unless you are against taxpayer-funded medical treatment for everything except terminal illness and yearly check ups, you are singling out SRS. It's not really "transphobic" in my opinion, because I don't think you're "afraid." It's just plain old bigotry.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Yollam]

36. Is that Maddie Joan from MMTF?

Howdy!

:hi:

[maddiejoan]

37. sure is :)

Howdy back !

[wordpix]

146. what is MMTF?

[Yollam]

155. Mike Malloy Truthseekers Forum

Feel free to drop by anytime!

http://www.mikemalloy.net/board/viewforum.php?f=1


Maddie is our Brooklyn Bureau Chief.

She also does incredible voices. You may have heard her do Gollum or Sling Blade on the show from time to time. Hilarious.

[maddiejoan]

186. Thanks

I don't do Sling Blade though


I do Gollum, Dubya, Ann Coulter, Alternate Timeline Kerry, and Tony Blair

[Yollam]

240. Oh, Sorry!

I just assumed that was you all along!

[Deja Q]

51. Really. Anything else maudlin you have to say?

I think that people who commit violent crimes against another human being (rape, murder, pummeling) should not get what they want in return.

Especially if he's asking for an elective operation to chop off his willie and drill in a tunnel. THAT is "medically necessary"? Especially when there are plenty of transexuals who can't afford the operation and find ways to live with what they've got. Or even famous transexuals who keep their born bits.

(oh, he's still a he. Otherwise he wouldn't be asking to become a she.)

Apparently, you feel such criminals should get what they want.

Maybe we should all commit vicious crimes, so we can go to prison and get everything we want. Free room and board, insurance, cable TV... :sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

71. No one is advocating vicious crimes to get what we want.

That's a complete red herring to throw that in there.

No, she is not a "he." Among people with an unbiased knowledge of the trans community, it is widely known that sex is what's between your legs. Gender is what's in your head. Everyone should have the basic right to be referred to as the gender they identify as. Would you get pissed off if a bunch of people kept calling you a woman, even though you know you're a man. Yes. It's the same thing.

[maddiejoan]

102. She isn't a "He".

Gender is between the ears. Sex is between the legs.

She is already a she. She will kill herself if she doesn't have a vagina.

Not all transsexuals feel that need. We are not all alike. In my case, for example, I was born intersexed with genitals somewhere between female and male.
I had my SRS as an infant and made "male." This is not uncommon for many transsexuals. But by your logic, I'm still a man.

Why does this culture attach so much importance to an inexpensive operation that transforms a male organ into a female organ?
BTW they don't "chop it off and drill a hole"

While I don't, as a free woman, feel compelled to go through SRS (BTW it's the dangerous aspects of surgery --not the $7,000 dollar price tag that's at issue for me), if I was incarcerated with life imprisonment I would NEED the surgery. Without it, and with no hope of ever having it, I'd suicide.

[madmusic]

245. Is that why your "Love Mankind" is written in blood? n/t

[maddiejoan]

5. Cost of HRT

"He was granted Hormone therapy? How many school lunches does THAT cost a year (thousands?)"



Costs me about $400 a year.

[madmusic]

247. Now he's making the children suffer!

And stealing their lunches! The big meanie! (As if killing his wife wasn't enough.)

[adriennui]

8. oofah!

what a puss on that guy!:crazy: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :crazy: :wtf: :wtf:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

14. Why shouldn't SHE have a "puss" on?

Extreme emotional anguish and not being allowed to get the surgery that will make your body line up with your mind can wear on a person.

[adriennui]

18. he murdered his wife!!!!!!!!

he's not entitled to a taxpayer funded sex change operation.
i guess i'm not compassionate.

[maddiejoan]

21. correct. You are not.

[adriennui]

208. would he/she remain in men's prison

or transferred to a less restrictive woman's prison. i believe we have more important issues to confront than the desires of a murderer.

[liberalhistorian]

360. Apparently, neither are you since you

obviously couldn't care less about the woman he murdered, his own WIFE, or any of the prisoners with true life-threatening illnesses who have trouble getting REAL care in prison. Oh, I know, the wife was probably transphobic, too, as is everyone who doesn't exactly toe your line.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

364. Wow, great job sticking words into other people's mouths.

I don't know what the real deal with his wife was. I can, however, read what other DUers have written. And calling a transgendered woman "he" is transphobic. That is a fact.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

22. Correction:

She murdered her wife. Also, even though she's in prison, she's not on death row and GID is a serious issue. It's not like she randomly woke up one day and was randomly like, "ya know, I think I'm gonna try to get myself turned into a women on a taxpayer's dime."

She is A WOMAN. She was just born into the wrong body and she needs to get that corrected.

[ronnykmarshall]

And maybe after the surgery ...

her dead wife will come back to life and everything will be allllllllll better!!!

Oh look, Bambi's prancing through the forest!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

182. That's the most asinine comment ever.

I'm not saying it will fix everything. It won't bring back her wife. All I'm saying is that she is a woman and that she should be able to get the surgery. According to the article, they're not doing it for security reasons. That's lame. If that's the only reason, let her have the surgery and transfer her to a women's facility. Women shouldn't be kept in a men's facility.

[ronnykmarshall]

185. Thanks!

I aim to please!

[Vickers]

9. At least pony up for a decent hair stylist.

:eyes:

[maddiejoan]

11. Definately that

she has a horrible hair.

[slackmaster]

173. As a taxpayer I'd be willing to help pay for that

:argh:

[Exultant Democracy]

17. Fuck Kosilek,

If she needed surgery then she shouldn't have killed her wife. I don't believe in the death penalty but I would have no problem if the judge said "If you are going to kill yourself I can get the state to pay for a rope."

If Scott Peterson was trying to get the state to pick up a viagra tab cause his junk stopped working everyone would laugh for good reason and that is the same reason I laugh at Kosilek. Fuck you, you are in jail and I am glad it sucks for you.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

25. I'm sorry but ED and GID are two totally different things.

To compare being a transexual to being a guy that can't get a hard-on basically proves you have no clue what the hell you're talking about.

It's not a joke. There is no reason to laugh at Kosilek aside from being a transphobic idiot.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nickinSTL]

20. Great, more transphobic BS

:puke:

[maddiejoan]

24. unreal isn't it?

Breaks my heart each time.

[nickinSTL]

119. seems to be the one bigotry that's still acceptable...

even among so-called "progressives"

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

127. This thread looks sadly similar to the FR thread on it. nt

[sendero]

277. You know..

... I can have compassion for someone such as yourself who was born a certain way.

This guy is HOW OLD? And right about NOW, HE'S REALIZED HE CAN'T GO ON AS A MAN?

Sorry, I just don't care.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

278. Actually, I'm not transgendered.

A lot of people realize late in life that they can't continue living as their biological sex. Just look at the posts around here and the lack of understanding. Imagine thirty-five years ago. It would have been a lot worse and it's a really difficult issue these days, especially for an MTF. They tend to have a much harder time than FTMs. FTMs tend to be much more "passable" in every day society. You've seen them and you never noticed probably. You probably would notice the "man" dressed as a "woman." They're discriminated against for jobs, housing et cetera and in most parts of the country (even blue states) they have NO LEGAL PROTECTION.

[sendero]

279. I'm sorry..

... I intended to reply to another poster. Again my point is, if you are transgendered, don't you generally realize it sometime shortly after puberty, as most gay people probably do? You don't turn 55 and go "geez, I coulda shoulda woulda been a woman!".

Of the handful of transgendered folks I've been acquainted with, that was the least of their problems, definitely not a "stand-alone" mental issue, but one of a complex.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

280. Yes, but it is far more difficult to be trans than gay.

In terms of how it affects your life, coming out as trans puts far more at risk than being gay. Once you start to transition, there's really no going back, even less legal protection, and far more discrimination. That's not just for podunk towns either, even otherwise very liberal areas can be very difficult to be trans in, and like I said before MTFs face more discrimination than FTMs simply because they're more visible.

[sendero]

281. I am not without..

... compassion for the transgendered. I just don't think society owes this particular person an operation.

If s/he were in prison for some bullshit reason, like drugs, I'd probably feel differently. Murder is serious, and I think that this person has forfeited the right to that sort of treatment.

[maddiejoan]

371. Most transgendered people feel it a very early age.

I knew I was a girl when I was three years old --I also recieved ECT for it when I was six.

Michelle testified that she felt it at 3 as well. The deep levels of shame associated with being transgendered often keeps one in the closet until later in life.

I came out of the closet at 30 --Michelle at 52 (which is very typical).


And you are quite right about complexities --when I finally did seek therapy I had no problems with GID anymore --I knew my gender to be female, I went to therapy to deal with abuse issues.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maddiejoan]

26. I can absolutely guarantee this...

If I was in jail and denied the right to have SRS --I would kill myself. Wouldn't even blink beforehand.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

27. Thank you!

Great post. If you hang out here long enough, you'll see that it's totally fine to make fun of transexuals.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maddiejoan]

29. "herm (her/him geddit?)"

Nope. She's a "her". So I don't "geddit"

Prisoners do get medically needed surgeries in prison. It happens all the time.
This is a life saving surgery for her, and it costs less than half a year of her incarceration.

Why are you such a cruel person?

[liberalhistorian]

361. Prisoners get treatment for LIFE-THREATENING

illnesses such as cancer, AIDS, diabetes, heart disease, etc. It is hardly "cruel" to deny public funds for a sex change operation to a convicted murderer when there isn't even enough funding for the REAL medical needs of prisoners. The REAL "cruel person" is this man who killed his wife. Sorry, murderers shouldn't get elective surgery in prison. And that's what this is. Where's your compassion for the woman he murdered? Let me guess, she was probably "transphobic" too.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

30. Her, not herm. (I mean really, WTF is that?)

And no one, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE, should EVER be referred to as "IT."

[Yollam]

32. Welcome to DU.

I personally don't favor giving this person the surgery. There is a case to be made for that. But keep making fun of people for their gender differences, etc. here and you won't be here long.

Just a word to the wise.

[mongo]

128. Herm? It's?

Wow. Enjoy your short stay on DU.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

132. Yep, truly making friends and influencing people.

:eyes:

Nice to see you here though, Mongo.

[Deja Q]

63. All things being equal, I'd help.

But if you want to support a despicable murderer, you go right ahead.

Just don't ask for sympathy if they try to murder you in return.

BTW: Our society was never "advanced". It was not a magic utopia until 1981. And GLBT folks are far more allowed in 2005 than they were in 1981, 1931, 1881, et cetera. The fact more of the public is against gay-discrimination laws proves it.

What is bothersome is how we're allowing murderers things that are only seen as presents, not punishments.

Also, to coin a phrase, "suffer the death of thine enemy". If more people thought about others in the first place, crime WOULD go down and we'd all be better off. (Maybe that vermin shouldn't have strangled his wife then?)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

68. The "T" in GLBT is not protected usually.

How is the surgery a present? It's not like allowing prisoners a tv. That's a present. Allowing someone a necessary surgery is not a present. Are anti-depressants "presents" for prisoners?

[hlthe2b]

98. the truth is that there is rationing of health care in prison and out...

Few if any prisons offer anti-viral care for the epidemic of Hepatitis C-infected inmates--many who may have acquired it in prison. The reasons are multiple--beyond the fact it would bankrupt the system. Many inmates have concommitant health issues that are real contraindications to therapy (age, diabetes, drug interactions, etc.) Yet, for those who might be candidates for treatment, it could prolong their life, or even diminish the chance of developing liver cancer (Hep B and C are the leading causes of liver cancer worldwide).

The fact is that health care IS rationed-- no matter how wrong that may be. Without single payer universal health care, there can never be a truly honest debate that ends with, "if medically indicated, it must be provided." That is not transphobia. It is reality. Provision of this surgery to this individual must be weighed against the entire range of health care needs for all inmates, and yes, prioritized. I wish that that were not so. I think most here do as well.

[joeunderdog]

35. He had the money, the time and the means to do it before he was jailed.

He was a milllionaire in a place where some of the best hospitals in the world are located. If it was so "necessary" why didn't he do it then?

This man's medical issues that relate to his physical well-being should be addressed thoroughly, but his identity issues s/b on his dime.

I have no problem with transgender operations or their being covered under insurance in the community. But if you commit murder, you forfeit your right to be a Podiatrist, a community church-goer, an Haagen Daaz enthusiast, a tailgaitor at football games or a female. Nope, you're never gonna be all you can or should be, but too fricken bad.

[maddiejoan]

39. What's not necessary as a Free Person..

Becomes incredibly necessary in a prison. Not only that but one must obtain letters for the surgery from 2 psychiatrists and a physician in addition to completing the incredibly silly 1 year life test. (Don't get me started on how the medical community treats transsexuals as if they were children)

I have not elected to have SRS (though I have the letters and have been living as a woman for 12 years) --because frankly as a free citizen it's not a life or death thing for me. I can go where I wish and associate with whom I wish.

Throw me in a male prison population --and I can guarantee I'd NEED the surgery and I'd NEED to be placed in a woman's prison.

That or suicide.I'm quite serious.

Further --addressing her as a man shows me right off the bat what an intolerant person you are.

[Yollam]

48. You kinda make a good point, BUT...

...do you think that TG people deserve to be exempt from the abuse that "regular" male prisoners endure? One needn't have feminine features to get beaten and raped in prison.

Seriously, I do get you on this, and it's the best rationale I've seen thus far for the state paying for this.

But I wonder if it wouldn't just be cheaper to have a third, transgender prison, in addition to male and female ones. Call me vindictive, but I really hate the idea or rewarding murderers for their violent behavior in any way.

[maddiejoan]

50. Transgender Prison?

We have one --it's called OUR OWN BODY.

I actually wasn't referring to fear of beatings and rape as motive for SRS (what an odd suggestion)

I would kill myself if I was forced to live in an all male population as a male.
Seriously --you cannot even imagine the anguish of being percieved as the wrong gender.
I've spent my own time already twirling razor blades in my fingers while crying in a bathtub.

To subject even a murderer to this is cruel and inhumane. They might as well just put a bullet in her head.
This isn't a reward! The denial of medically necessary treatment for GID is a PUNISHMENT far beyond the scope of the prison sentence.

[Yollam]

66. I'm pretty sure that TGs are not "forced to live as males"

As is mentioned in the story, the inmate wear's female clothes and gets hormone treatments. I wouldn't suggest forcing TG inmates to live as the wrong gender.

You say it would be as bad as a bullet in the head, but as a man, I can think of a million things that would be much worse than being forced to live as a woman. Well, except if you include those torture implements known as "high heels".

I'd live as a woman if it kept me out of prison. Prison seems worse than just about anything to me.

[maddiejoan]

80. Not the same thing.

Place yourself in the body of a woman , but you still feel yourself to be very much a man.
Live for all your life with people referring to you in feminine terms when you know yourself to be a man.

People who aren't transgendered think it's like being Batman. Bruce Wayne is the real guy and Batman is the alter ego he'd rather be.
Being transgendered is more like Superman. Superman is the real guy who must pose as mild-mannered Clark Kent in order to be accepted by society.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

62. A third prison for TGs?

And it'd be cheaper? That is seriously the most absurd post I've read all day. Letting her have the surgery and placing her into a women's facility would be far cheaper.

[pitohui]

388. she strangled another woman to death

why is giving her a surgery and placing her in a women's prison where she can do her thing again even an option?

i am sorry, i can't support the surgery for this particular woman

she made her bed when she strangled her wife

the good of the other women prisoners, most in prison for the B.S. crime of having a boyfriend or husband who sold drugs, has to come first

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

417. Do biological women who strangle other women go to male prisons?

Do men who strangle other men go to women's prisons?

[Deja Q]

70. Bingo.

I've read this thread in interest and you have said the core of the issue:

Call me vindictive, but I really hate the idea or rewarding murderers for their violent behavior in any way.

As the surgery is elective, and how surgeries in general are best avoided (risk of infection and other things; and having had a surgery once I know the dangers)... never mind the "lady" is a filthy MURDERER.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

74. Oh yeah, best not to get a sex change.

You might get an infection.

:eyes:

[elehhhhna]

64. put her in a protective custody cell and VOILA.

[Midlodemocrat]

86. maddiejoan, if I may.

I think the reason some folks are not in agreement with you is a very simple one. Most people don't know any transgendered individuals. Not putting a face with the situation makes it very easy to pick on 'Mann Coulter', for the way she looks rather than for the hateful bile she spews.

This is a very progressive board, but circumstances like the one in the OP are rare and people often knee jerk their reaction because of a simple lack of information about transgendered folks, and the suffering involved.

I do not know any transgendered individuals personally, but as a mental health professional, I would like to think I have compassion for the suffering folks go through in dealing with GID. Not being comfortable in your own body is a special kind of hell.

And, I wish the best for you in your situation whatever you choose to do.

[maddiejoan]

89. You raise some valid points.

--and I do thank you --but using transsexual as an insult, or tolerating transphobic comments doesn't make MY life any easier.
Frankly you'd be amazed how many people are shocked that I'm not a hooker.

[Midlodemocrat]

92. I completely agree.

I don't think insulting people is a good way to go through life, (unless of course they are republicans). Let's attack the message, not the messenger. Ann Coulter is horrific because of her words, not her looks.

I do think that discrimination against the GLBT community has created a new 'oppressed minority', like the civil rights movement in the 60's, and I long for the day when people can just be who they are without having to explain themselves or their situations as if they were 'different'.

I posted yesterday in GLBT that my company has just made changes to our health care coverage to include same-sex couples. As a married, hereto mom of three, I can't tell you how happy that made me.

[LNM]

184. Question for Maddie joan

This post may elevate this already flaming thread, but I have a question. I admit I'm completely ignorant of what a transgender person goes through. Is it possible that this person could want surgery to make himself more attractive to the other prisoners? I recall seeing that Richard Speck took hormones to make himself more attractive to other prisoners. Would it be possible to fool the psychiatrists? If this question offends you, I apologize in advance.

[maddiejoan]

194. I suppose one could fool a psychiatrist.

It does happen. But they wouldn't keep a post operative transsexual with a male prison population.
So it wouldn't have any bearing on this.

Everybody seems so preoccupied with the surgery, but the meds cost about $400-$500 annually. In ffiteen years it will have exceeded the cost of the surgery (surgery which would lessen the cost of the meds I might add). Probably the most expensive was the laser hair removal anyways. The vaginoplasty is just about the least expensive portion of the whole cost breakdown but it's the one everyone screams about because people get all spooked about penises going missing.

[LNM]

197. The last line of the link supplied by the OP

states that the "DOC lawyers argued that it would be a security risk to allow the operation because Kosilek would likely be targeted for attack by other inmates." So it would have bearing in this case. Although to me this sounds like a crock of shit. They couldn't keep her in an all-male prison. Thanks for your reply.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

231. Those durn penises going missing!

AHHHHHHHH!!!!!

;)

[dysfunctional press]

400. if she has srs, i doubt she'll stay in a male prison...

i think that's part of her point.

[Last Stand]

131. But, S/HE put himself in prison by committing murder.

Sure, prison ups the ante on alot of things that have to do with identity. Many prisoners do alot of soul searching and find God or another meaningful connection within themselves. This isn't a bad thing. It just doesn't mean the state should pay for it. Prison brings on many suicides for just these reasons. It's all tragic.

My point is, when you are a prisoner, you get bare bones treatment because of limited resources. So when prisoners are routinely refused knee replacements, laser eye surgery and a myriad of other important procedures, it's impossible to justify the enormous cost of a surgery that most law abiding people cannot get the state (or an insurance company) to pay for.

Whether the state or insurance should pay for this procedure in general is fodder for another thread. My point is...if he didn't kill someone, we wouldn't be having this thread, would we?

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dysfunctional press]

398. two words: protective custody.

and when her debt to society is paid, she's free to pay for her own srs.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

40. She was trying to live as a man before hand.

There are transgendered people that don't start their transition until they're in their 60s. There does come a point, where it is necessary for them to get it. She is already a female. Now she needs to have the body to match up with her brain.

[SidDithers]

41. An unfortunate placement and indicator of the article break...

Department of Correction pay for his sex-change operation.
snip
Kosilek, 57, claims he is suicidal and needs the sex change for “medical” reasons. A psychiatrist testified in federal court that Kosilek -...

Sid

[theboss]

44. Anyone who wants to have the surgery has my best wishes

I don't think the state should be forced to pay for it for convicts.

[maddiejoan]

46. How much do you imagine this will cost?

One year in jail already costs us between $30,000 and $60,000 per year per prisoner.


a vaginoplasty without all the bells and whistles costs $7,000. (and that's from a private surgeon --betcha The State could get the price down if not for free from a willing surgeon)


What? You think all the transsexuals are going to wish to go to jail for their free vaginoplastys? Get real.

[Deja Q]

55. If the state has that much power, why not do it for the benefit of ALL

Americans (in that state), especially those who don't go around murdering others?!

[maddiejoan]

61. Should murderers be denied medical treatment in general?

Because that's actually what you are advocating.

[LynneSin]

149. How many TGs are denied simply because they do not have the funds?

What makes a murderer any more important that all the law-abiding Transgenders out there who desperately need the surgery but can't afford it?

I'd rather give the $7k to someone who is lawabiding and needs the surgery.

[maddiejoan]

181. Great!

You can put it in my Paypal account. I'll send you the details.

[LynneSin]

209. awwww, I would if I had the money!!

I promise though that if I ever win the lottery or come into some for of inheritance that I will take care of you. However, unfortuately, I'm just another gal struggling to keep my head above water like all the other working class stiffs in society.

I know that my viewpoint seems to be in disagreement with some in this thread, but I think for the bulk of us we are not transphobic (ok that freeper calling the prisoner 'herm' and 'it' probably was). It's just that there are so many medical crisis in our prisons and hardly enough money to go around.

[undergroundpanther]

384. I agree

Hyno I wish I had 6,800 bucks,than I would get rid of the udders and I would feel better about my body,but because I am not helped by attorneys and such,I will never be able to have it done,I am on disability and my theerapist thinks it would help..but do you think the state would help me,no.I'm just some insignificant nut.
I hate this world.
I wish the state would realize how painful it is to be trans.Help everyone,and if you gotta pick and choose don't give it to people in jail first.

[alphafemale]

47. I feel for people who aren't murders who can't afford this surgery.

There is no reason a murder should get preferential treatment.

[maddiejoan]

49. How is this preferential?

Please enlighten me.

[alphafemale]

108. People DIE because of lack of medical care everyday.

Why should a murderer be at the front of the line?

I'll fight for Universal Health care coverage. Until then, let her friends and supporters raise funds to pay for the operation the same as nearly every transgendered person would have to.

The same as any person without healthcare coverage has to for nearly ANY operation for that matter.

[maddiejoan]

183. Until then I assume --

-- that prisoners should not recieve any medical treatment at all?

[alphafemale]

212. Prisoners should not receive consideration before others.

They should find a way to pay for treatment the same as everyone else.

But there should be Universal Coverage, and transgender surgery should be covered under these plans.

[Deja Q]

53. THANK YOU.

:applause:

It is as simple as that, and I've expounded on the issue - no doubt that person has me on their 'ignore' list by now, but that's their loss.

[bleedingheart]

72. I have to agree...in all the local stores there are jars to raise money

for cancer treatments for a local high school student. This kid has a life threatening disease and can't afford to get treatments and yet a convict is getting an optional treatment for something that he should have paid for before...or waited until he got out of prison.

[mongo]

133. Well gee,

an abortion could be considered an "optional treatment" - should a woman who gets pregnant just before or in prison be denied an abortion?

And, as others have pointed out, call this person "him" is an insult.

[bleedingheart]

137. have you written to the Boston Herald to let them know?

that is how Robert is referred to in the article.

As for abortions, many states do not allow for medicaid (state dollars) to be spent on abortions for any women.

Abortions are paid for generally through a woman's funds or through groups like Planned Parenthood.

Perhaps the transgender surgery can be paid for by a transgender group.

I went to this site...

http://www.ifge.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=255&theme=Printer

"MONOPOLY’S NEW “GO TO JAIL, GET A VAGINA FOR FREE” CARD

Robert Kosilek, a.k.a. Michelle, sits in a Boston prison, serving a life sentence for strangling his wife. Michelle has identified as being transsexual since being sent to prison. While in prison, she filed a lawsuit claiming the Corrections Department is violating his civil rights and subjecting him to cruel and unusual punishment by refusing to provide treatment for his gender identity disorder. He said he suffers continuous depression, anxiety, and a high level of stress as a result of being denied treatment....


I have to agree with Juli on this matter. There are many pre-op transsexuals, living near or below the poverty level, who are far more deserving of free SRS than a convicted murderer in a Boston prison. If any state decided to give into this kind of lawsuit, what message would it send to those desperate individuals who would see that the only way they could ever get surgery is to commit a violent crime? Maybe it’s time for the top SRS surgeons to begin to consider the concept of pro-bono surgeries. The problem would lie in how to choose among the thousands of pre-op transsexuals wanting the procedure? There is no perfect answer in this imperfect world."


and found that even in the transgendered community everyone does not agree that he should get surgery for free after killing someone.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

139. Her legal name is now Michelle. nt

[joeunderdog]

164. The legal system has Michelle in a men's prison. nt

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

169. Yes, one of the many things wrong with the legal system. nt

[Dorian Gray]

54. While in prison

I don't think anybody should be allowed sex change operations or hormone therapy. (I don't know what the ramifications are if one starts said therapy and stops it if one is incarcerated. That may be an exception to the rule.)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

57. Why not?

It's a medical condition, which can have severe emotional consequences, if they can't have it. It's not particulary expensive, especially hormone therapy. Do you also advocate someone with severe depression or anxiety not being allowed to recieve treatment for it while in prison?

They should get what the treatment they need and put be into a facility for the gender they identify as.

[Dorian Gray]

77. I understand that,

and I have sympathy for the emotional trauma that being transgendered can create in a human being. But, as I explained in another post, she committed her crime while married, as a man, to a woman. She was sentenced and incarcerated as a man. I believe that she should serve her prison time as a man, and, when released, then she should provide the surgery for herself. I don't believe that the emotional consequences of her transgendered person is the responsibility of the state.

What is the responsibility of the state, however, is to protect her. They should do that by providing her safety in prison and therapy, addressing both her transgendered state AND her murderous tendencies.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

82. The operation is part of the therapy for GID.

With the surgery, it is most likely that she will cost less in psychriatic costs in the long run. If you truly believe it's the state's responsibility to protect her, then they should allow her to get the surgery.

[Dorian Gray]

96. But she still needs therapy.

She murdered her wife. I'm sure that some of that rage was a result of GID issues, but she MURDERED HER WIFE! She did so as a male. I just can not get past that. It seems so cruel. And, as she was a male at the time, I just believe that she should serve her time as a male. I know you disagree, and I hope that doesn't make you think I'm closed-minded about the issue. But, I can't make the leap from knowing that she killed her wife to allowing the state to pay for her sex change operation and allow her to serve her time in a female prison.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

97. Why do you care so much about her being in a male prison?

It's a prison either way.

[Dorian Gray]

100. Actually, it's not...

There are hard core prisons, country club prisons, and the level of danger and punishment varies from prison to prison. I believe that the DA and the judges look at that during sentencing, and determine, due to the nature of the crimes, where the prisoner should serve his/her term.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

101. I'm sure female murderers go to a hard core prison, so why does it matter?

[Dorian Gray]

103. You are going to keep at this until I give in to you, huh?

I don't have a great answer. Maybe it's my own closed-mindedness. I just think that in some way she would be rewarded with free surgery by the state for the act of murdering her wife. She committed the crime as a male, albeit with GID. She didn't go ahead and pay for the surgery herself, so why should the state be saddled with it?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

115. It's not a reward. It's a necessary medical procedure.

[NorthernSpy]

166. no, it's not

An emergency appendectomy is a medically necessary procedure. A sex change operation may be viewed by some as being so emotionally necessary that they claim that they'd refuse to live without it. But that's not the same thing as a medical necessity.

Kosilek is threatening to kill himself if he isn't given what he wants. That's a behavior choice -- not a disease process apart from his own will.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

170. If you want to even attempt to not look bigoted that sentence would read..

Kosilek is threatening to kill herself if he isn't given what she wants. That's a behavior choice -- not a disease process apart from her own will.

[BeTheChange]

410. OM Gosh, you bigot!

"Kosilek is threatening to kill herself if he isn't given what she wants. That's a behavior choice -- not a disease process apart from her own will."

Shouldnt it have been she? Pot. Kettle. Black.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

416. That was a typo. I said, "her" later in the sentence.

[Dorian Gray]

335. I understand your position

and I will think about it. It's difficult to understand something like that fully unless you live it, and I never have. So, perhaps my opinion is born out of my own, admitted, ignorance of the situation. Having said that, then, it would be a necessary medical procedure for anybody born with GID, if I were to accept your argument. So, should the state or federal government cover the costs for all who want to undergo this surgery? Like I said, if that were the case, then I would consider it discriminatory to deny the state ward such surgery. But, it is not currently the case. So, I can not justify the government paying for this when so many others (innocent of crime) suffer with Gender Identity Disorder without the means to pay for their own surgery.

[LisaL]

261. Those surgeries are not usually covered by medical insurance,

are they? Then why should someone in prison be able to get it for free, when Joe down the street won't get it covered?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

266. It depends on the insurance company. nt

[maddiejoan]

58. Care to explain why?

while you've made your position clear --is there a reason you would deny humane care to a prisoner?

[Dorian Gray]

75. It's quite a difficult situation

She is being provided with hormone therapy currently. It (the surgery) is a large expense, and it is one that I don't beleive is necessary, nor do I believe that it should be provided by the state. She was incarcerated as a man, who violently killed his wife. If she has the actual sex change, she will be placed in a woman's prison. Living as a male, I suspect that she was stronger than her wife, she was convicted under those circumstances as a male, and she should serve her prison term as a male.

I have the utmost sympathy for the transgendered living in society. But, she is a criminal, and for the time being, forced to live away from society. She was convicted as a male for a crime she committed as a male. I think she should serve her time as a male. When she has finished her sentence, then is the time to have the operation. An operation that she should provide for herself.

[maddiejoan]

85. It's not a large expense.

It's $7,000 for a private surgeon to do a vaginoplasty. Most likely half that for the butcher job the State would most likely do.

What if she had to have spleenectomy? What if she had to have a tumor removed? Appendicitis?

How is this different? Is it because it's the mystical penis?

Why does everybody think a vaginoplasty is so expensive? It's 2006 --It's not exactly a difficult operation anymore.


Surgery wise -- it's not expensive.

[Dorian Gray]

94. Again...

it's not solely the expense, though seven thousand dollars for a surgery that is cosmedic in nature (though transgender might be deemed life threatening, it is so emotionally, not physically) is not what I want the prison population to spend the money on. I'd prefer to see those expenses go to therapy and safety procedures.

But, I'm primarily opposed because she committed her crime as a male, she was convicted as a male, and I believe that she should serve her time as a male. I don't believe that makes me insensitive.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

95. It's not cosmetic and don't you think...

quite a bit of money could be saved on therapy and safety procedures, if she could just get the surgery?

[Dorian Gray]

99. No, because she needs therapy, anyhow.

All those years dealing with the Gender Identity Disorder and all the emotional problems that result from it, including the MURDER of another human being, need to be addressed by years of therapy anyhow. And the cost shouldn't be provided by the state. I still see it as something that the GID person needs to deal with on their own.

I think that the therapy is the priority of the government while she is in prison. And, perhaps, through that therapy she will be better able to deal with the issues that go with GID, as well as prepare her for the difficulties she may experience in the future.

Now, if the state changed its laws and provided sex change operations for anybody with GID, then I might think that they needed to do so for the prisoners. If they didn't, I might consider it discrimination. But, the surgery is elective surgery, paid for by those who undergo the surgery. I don't see why exceptions should be made for prisoners. Particuarly those guilty of murder.

[mongo]

136. Why do keep insisting that somehow her GID caused her to murder?

I fail to see the connection.

[maddiejoan]

112. wrong

She committed her crime as a woman. She has been a woman since she was born. Owning a penis does not make her a man.

[wordpix]

154. how much for a woman who wants SRS to be male? She would have to get

breasts removed, female parts removed and penis implanted. That would cost a whole lot more, I would think.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

156. Unfortunately, it does cost a lot more.

Most of them don't actually get the "bottom" surgery done. The surgery works a lot better for MTFs than for FTMs. The majority of FTMs just "pack" instead.

[BeTheChange]

411. 7000 pays for 2333 school lunches @ 3.00 a piece (high end cost) nt

[elehhhhna]

67. weird that no one's advocating for spending that money on a PSYCHIATRIST

for the MURDERER. hello? fix her on the inside before you "do" the outside.

Society would be better served by that expenditure, imo.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

78. You can't fix a transexual on the inside.

Just like you can't fix a gay person.

[elehhhhna]

117. I was referring to "fixing" the MURDERER Person. Priorities, ya know.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

123. Okay, I misread.

They're both issues that need to be addressed. I'm sure that the "fixing" of the murderer would be easier, if we could eliminate an issue that's causing her major emotional anguish and suicidal thoughts.

[elehhhhna]

124. I get your whole point, and have to hand it to you--

for holding up on a very difficult thread.

IMO, most people with life sentences have some degree of emotional anguish and probably some suicidal thoughts.
For those who are clearly as guilty as this person: too bad.

[LeftHander]

65. ANother "demon" transgender wedge issue.....thanks KKarl....

This post reeks of a simple wedge issue.

Designed to bring divison within the ranks of DU.

Frankly it is a isolated issue that should be treated on the context of the health requirements of the individual regardless of whenther they are incarserated or not.

The debate on this issue goes beyond that capabilities of any non-professional discussion on this board.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

79. Good post. nt

[me b zola]

188. I share your feelings on the OP.

This post was meant to be divisive.

[Last Stand]

220. No, it was not “meant” to be divisive

…but, yes, it was. That part is no longer up for debate.

Having seldom generated more than passing interest for most of my posts, I had no reason to believe that this one would be much different. I figured that if I didn't post about Truthout reporting that Bev Harris had gotten raped at Duke, then I didn't need to worry about a pissing contest. :dunce:

But for this thread, I believe the argument has deteriorated into an (unresolvable) false dichotomy. One side believes that the issue is that transgenders deserve essential treatment for their medical condition while the other side believes that prisoners should not be getting care or benefits from the government that are not firstly afforded to its law abiding citizens. If this is true, and I believe it is, then most posters here are correct but feeling misunderstood.

Mea Culpa. My bad.:blush:

[zalinda]

84. Okay, what if

this is all a scam. How do we know that he/she has this problem? What if he/she is a someone who just wants to get out of the men's prison, where he/she is victimized, and go to the women's prison so he/she could rise in the power struggle among weaker people.

This gets really tricky, for any judge, whether they believe in transgender or not.

zalinda

[maddiejoan]

88. Because this is real life.

Not a Roger Corman movie.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

91. "Believe in transgender"? It ain't Santa Claus.

First off, she's not a "he/she", she's a "she." I find it extremely unlikely that she's pretending to do this, just to subvert the power structure of the women's prison. Also, hormone treatment results in a redistribution of muscle & fat. Muscularly, she'll be more comparable to a biological woman than a biological man.

So, basically this woman may be pretending to be a woman (and making herself physically weaker in the process) to avoid being victimized by men (who she is now more susceptible to be victimized by) in order to exert her power over women (who she's now close to physically)?

I just wanted to make sure I was clear on that.

[zalinda]

107. You have to admit there are plenty of people

who don't believe that transgender is real. Many judges tow the repub/religious line when it comes to sexual "problems". The fact that he/she got hormones at all is a miracle. I'm just not convinced that this is the real deal in regards to this person.

BTW, I do know of one transgendered person who is a waitress in our town. I would never refer to her as a he, even though she is still quite manly looking.

I just wonder when someone all of a sudden says "hey, I'm stuck in the wrong body" when they get into prison. Male prisons are much more brutal than female ones. Although, I could never see myself doing something that would put me in that sort of situation, so I can only guess.

zalinda

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

110. In a post below, there is another link.

Apparently, she was presenting as female at the time of the trial and claimed it was self-defense.

[hlthe2b]

105. Perhaps others know more about this story than I...

but I am surprised that no one has wondered re: the motive behind the strangling murder of then wife, Cheryl. In an AP article dating to 2002:

Kosilek, 52, says he began asking the state for treatment in 1990, after being arrested in the killing of his 36-year-old wife, Cheryl. During the murder trial, Kosilek wore shoulder-length hair and long fingernails to court. His lawyer called him Michelle.

The condition was not part of his defense, however. He claimed he killed his wife in self-defense after she spilled boiling tea on his genitals. He was convicted in 1993 of strangling her with a length of wire and leaving her body in the back of a parked car.
http://www.atforumz.com/archive/index.php/t-111336.html

I make no point nor comment. I provide only for those who, like me, wanted to know a bit more of the back story.

[maddiejoan]

106. Why would "the condition" be part of the defnse at all?

Michelle was clearly presenting as female even at the time of the strangling of her spouse.

I'll bet her "condition" was used by the prosecution, however, to paint her as dangerous crazy.

If she had preseneted as male at the trial I can assure you the jury would have aquitted a man who strangled his wife after an attack with boiling liquid on his penis.

[hlthe2b]

111. Not at all..

As I said, I make no comment on the case, but I certainly would argue with your maintaining that a jury would have acquitted a man who strangled his wife after an attack with boiling liquid (tea) on his genitals. I do not, in any way, believe that.

[maddiejoan]

116. Then with all due respect..

You have no idea what my reality is --or the reality that every transsexual faces when dealing with close minded people in positions of authority.

Transphobia is so rampant in this society people aren't even aware when they engage in it. Prosecution Lawyers in particular love to use a person's transsexuality against their credibility.

I face enough transphobic attitudes on a liberal forum like DU --imagine what would happen if I faced a jury in a trial.

[hlthe2b]

129. Don't misunderstand...

I am not implying a jury would be neutral on the issue in a case involving a transexual. Would there likely be bias that could influence the jurors? I think there would be a great chance of that, in most areas of this country.

What I was saying was that I do believe most men would be convicted of, at least manslaughter, if they strangled someone under these circumstances. The law, as I understand it, allows proportional force in defending oneself. Lethal force against an obviously horrendous (if as described "boiling" liquid), yet nonlethal assault, without other circumstances present--I don't believe this would meet the criteria.

[johnnie]

120. Out of curiosity

Where do you come to the conclusion that "Michelle was clearly presenting as female even at the time of the strangling of her spouse."?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

121. Probably from the second article posted in the thread stating that...

"During the murder trial, Kosilek wore shoulder-length hair and long fingernails to court. His lawyer called him Michelle."

[johnnie]

122. That just means she went to trial that way

I was wondering where it was clear she was presenting herself that way before the trial.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

126. It's not. I am looking for a link right now.

Regardless of whether or not she was dressed as a man before doesn't make a difference in whether or not she's transgendered.

My transgendered friends were transgendered before they started living as the opposite sex. They were always that way. They didn't just wake up one day and be like, "hey, I'm not feeling ostracized enough today. I know! I'm going to become transgendered."

[johnnie]

130. I'm not questioning people who are transgendered

I am just wondering about more of the facts to this particular situation.

Here's the thing, many people have done many things to stay out of the prison system or just mess with the system. I think that by taking a the facts that were in these two articles and saying that everyone is transphobic because they won't give her the operation and because people here question it is not enough to understand this situation.

I was just curious on more background information, and I really couldn't find any in the quick search I did.

[mongo]

144. Well, as much as it's not a laughing matter

I still got a chuckle out of this:

"hey, I'm not feeling ostracized enough today. I know! I'm going to become transgendered."

Ain't it the truth.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

150. Glad you got a chuckle. We need a chuckle in a thread like this. nt

[maddiejoan]

189. hehehehehe

Thanks for the giggle!

[RandiFan1290]

125. Ahhh!! This old freep hate fest story AGAIN?

Hmmmmm?

Seems this story has popped up every few months for the last 15 frigging years. :eyes:

If only this were our biggest problem.

[LynneSin]

135. Folks this has nothing to do with transphobia - seriously!

I'm offended that anyone here at DU would accuse another member of transphobia especially in light of what this case is all about. This is a convicted felon killer is demanding that we use our tax dollars for her elective surgury.

If this was happening in Delaware I would be protesting about it and writing letters to the editor and it has nothing to do with transphobia. Most states, including my own Delaware, simply do NOT have enough money to cover the basic needs for those who are incarcerated. Our local paper did an excellent investigative report about the higher rate of disease including HIV happening within the prison that is simply not getting enough funds to deal with these issues.

Trans-op surgury is not cheap. Should the state of Massachusetts money for one person or use that money to fund hundreds of prisoners who have more dire medical needs. It's simply money poorly spent for someone who thought nothing of killing another human being. I don't care how sexually confused this person was - there is no justification for murder.

It seems that Massachusetts has bent over backwards to accomadate this person but the surgery is money poorly spent

[mongo]

148. An abortion is "elective surgery"

Should we deny abortions to women in prison too?

[LynneSin]

151. Should we deny treatment for Hep C/HIV prisioners

Unfortunately for many of our prisoners this is exactly what is happening.

And as for an abortion, that costs far less that TG Surgery plus many states already have laws in place that pretty much prevent abortions being funded by state funds so it's all sorta a moot point

[mongo]

161. 3 wrongs don't make a right n/t

[LynneSin]

165. You're right but the problem is that prisons do not have the funds

to provide even the basic healthcare needed for their prisoner population, hell not even their non-prisoner population too. States are struggling to make ends meet and unfortunately the rate of infectious diseases are rising in the prisons because of this.

Not everyone's needs are going to be met in the prison population but I'd rather focus on the masses than one individual.

If there are people out there who feel so compelled for this woman to have her surgery then perhaps they could raise the monies through private donation. Although I hate to say this, if I could raise the $7-10k for TG surgery, I'd rather give it to some law-abiding TG who can't afford the surgery than to a murderer. But what is done with private funds is none-of-my-business but what is done with my tax dollars is

[Gormy Cuss]

198. The issue is one of limited resources

You are right, medical needs are not fully funded in prisons any more than in other public health funded arenas. As long as we aren't funding health care equally, it's a hard call to fund a procedure for someone who has a life sentence because she claims to be suicidal, rather than fund care for someone with a shorter sentence. The article says that her suit says she has attempted suicide twice in her life, but doesn't say whether either attempt happened after her incarceration. She's been in a male facility for 13 years. If she hasn't tried yet, is there a chance that this position is just a new way to frame the argument that the state should pay for her procedure?


As someone posts up thread, if we had universal health care it might make the case moot.

[maddiejoan]

228. Here's what everyone ignores...

By having a court precedent decide officially that SRS in not medically needed as treatment in some cases of GID, you give insurance companies all the ammo they need to forever deny coverage to un-incarcerated transsexuals such as myself.

[Gormy Cuss]

232. But if the case is decided on suicidal tendencies rather than the root

issue, does that set a precedent for SRS or just a decision for her case?


Good point on the potential for this. Have there been court cases against insurers that have set precedent for SRS as not medically necessary? I would think that the insurers would love to have that done because let's face it, they want to exclude as much as possible from coverage.

Every few years there is a case of a lifer petitioning the court for some medical procedure (transplants come to mind.) Isn't the key whether her suicidal tendencies constitute justification for SRS or whether the state can use other mitigation?

I had no idea the basic vaginoplasty procedure was so cheap. Learn something new everyday.

[theboss]

404. They can make that determination with our without the courts

I work in the insurance field, and I am unfamiliar with any caselaw defining any treatment as medically necessary. It's a case by case basis.

And the only health plans I know that pay for this surgery are plans through private universities.

[slackmaster]

177. An abortion for a female prisoner should be paid for by...

...The man who knocked her up.

Not the state.

I know this may seem like a strange concept to some here - Holding individuals accountable for their behavior.

[LeftyMom]

199. but what if that man is a rapist, or a prison employee, or was imprisoned

as well?

Health care is a right and a woman should never have to go hat in hand and hope a prior lover will pay for it. After all, we are not in the habit of demanding the old lovers of HIV patients pay for thier anti-virals, that women with cervical cancer track down the man who exposed them to HPV or that inmates with heart disease bill the long-dead mothers who fed them thier first high cholesterol meal. Health care is a right but people often seem to forget that when issues of gender and sexuality are involved.

[slackmaster]

202. I'm struggling to understand why a prisoner should get things that welfare

recipients cannot.

[LeftyMom]

204. I have no idea why welfare recipients can't get those things too

Reproductive health care including birth control, abortion and sterilization is all state funded here. :shrug:

[slackmaster]

206. Can a welfare person get SRS paid for by your state?

I'm pretty sure they can't here in Cali.

[LeftyMom]

219. No. (I'm in Sacramento.)

The City and County of San Francisco has it included in thier employee health plan but that's the only place I know of where it's covered. It should be though, when there's a diagnosed gender identity disorder.

[slackmaster]

413. It comes down to availability of resources vs. need

We're a long way from being able to have the state cover every medical need that isn't covered by private insurance or the patient's ability to pay.

It should be though, when there's a diagnosed gender identity disorder.

In an ideal world, everyone could receive treatment for any diagnosed disorder. But public funds are not unlimited, and they have to be allocated according to priorities.

[bleedingheart]

223. Welfare recipients who get medical benefits (Medicaid) do not

get abortions paid for by the state.

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/public_funding.html

If you read this link you will discover that Medicaid only covers abortion in cases of rape, incest and life endangerment. The rest must be paid for by the individual or charity.

This is all do to Henry Hyde...and is referred to as the Hyde Amendment.

[LeftyMom]

225. In California MediCal does pay for it

I happen to live in California, so when I said that it's paid for here, I was telling the truth. California also pays for birth control, sterlilizations, preconception counseling, STD testing and treatment and some infertility treatement through the Family PACT program.

[johnnie]

157. I agree with you and disagree with you Lynne

It seems that people are too quick to accuse others with some sort of phobia before knowing who they are accusing. To let bias cloud your judgment is never really a smart way to see the facts.

As for the operation itself, I am going by what I have come to understand and I believe that the operation is considered necessary for a transgendered person. I'm not one, but that doesn't mean I know what is best. My question in this case is if this is just a manipulation of the system or not.

There are cases of people killing themselves to stay out of prison, killing other people to stay out of prison and trying to say they have a mental disorder to get out of prison. I personally have no problem with her getting the operation if there are facts that she was already presenting herself as a woman before she killed her wife and tried to cover it up.

If it a case of manipulation, then that is bullshit and it should not be done. I know that people will quickly jump on a case like this and call people names if anyone questions something like this, but as I said, I don't think that it is smart to start accusing people of being something they aren't because of a personal bias.

[maddiejoan]

176. Not cheap compared to what?

As I've stated the typical vaginoplasty is approximately $7,000.

If we spread that money out to hundreds (let's say whay? 200?) it comes to $35 bucks a prisoner?

In the long run it'll cost less than the meds they'll need to put her on to keep her from slitting her wrists with a sharpened toothbrush.

That's why it's transphobic. The fear of transgendered people probably put her in jail, the fear of transgendered causes people to constantly refer to her as him, the fear of transgendered makes people think this is a bigger deal than an performing any other needed surgery.

Sorry you don't like the label --but it's your's to wear.

[One_of_8]

244. Cannot agree with this statement

The fear of transgendered people probably put her in jail,

I submit that you are assuming facts that are not in evidence, at least not on this thread, or on the bits of information given in the on-line articles. From what I have read, this individual committed a murder. The reason she murdered her wife was given as that the wife had poured boiling water on her genitals. You paint 12 unknown jurors with a very broad brush, calling each and every one of them bigoted against transgendered people, for the verdict they reached in this case. What I find disturbing is that you seem to dismiss the fact that Michelle killed her spouse, apparently in a fit of rage or who knows what. Killed her spouse. Strangled her with an electric cord I believe, then dumped her in a trunk of a car. Perhaps the jury listened to the facts and evidence, and convicted Michelle because she committed murder, and not because she is transgendered.

the fear of transgendered makes people think this is a bigger deal than an performing any other needed surgery.

Of course, this is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But I've seen several posters offer very rational reasons why they do not want taxpayer dollars (and that is after all, where the money comes from - it is our tax dollars that fund governmental expenditures) spent on providing a convicted murderer with the requested operation. I am not afraid of transgendered individuals, and I resent you dismissing my arguments by labeling me fearful or bigoted.

[maddiejoan]

259. What I'm saying is this.

and my evidence is right here on this board --


If a straight white man had flown into a rage and strangled his wife after she poured boiling liquid in his lap, the wife would be able to be portrayed as a castrating Lorena Bobbit type, and the sheer outrage of the jury
that a woman could so assault the mighty mythic penis of a manly man would probably have garnered some sympathy and understanding from the jury. Of course it was self-defense --he went mad from the scalding of his manly manliness. He'd most likely have gotten off with at least manslaughter, and possibly even self-defense.

But that wasn't the case --in walks a transgendered woman in mid-transition, obviously she's crazy --the prosecutor calling her Robert and a man. The defense calling her Michelle. Look at that hair --look at those nails! Whatta freak --whatta MONSTER (people in this very thread have decided "He" is a "Monster".

How do you know the wife didnt pour the boiling liquid on her genitals while berating him for being a freak? Not that would matter to a jury likely to agree with the wife's assesment --or even the judgement that since Michelle obviously didn't want her genitals --what's the harm? Hell, most of you probably think the same thing anyways -- Do the operation --but make it a botch job --Ha Ha!

More than half of you refer to Michelle in masculine pronouns --and when you don't you refer to her as he/she or it. And this is a Progressive liberal forum! I'm supposed to believe that a jury is going to be more understanding then ya'll??

Nobody raised a ruckus over the laser hair removal --got news for ya --costs twice what a simple vaginoplasty does. The hormones will cost more after 15 years --but keepi on pumping the freak with pills. Just so long as she serves out her sentence getting beaten and raped by male prisoners --serves "Him" right" don't it.

Don't wanna spend the money ---send her packing to a female prison then. Leave her shriveled useless male organ intact. At least give her the punishment she deserves in a female prison. Won't cost you an extra dime. Unless of course this is all about her penis and how she must keep it and suck it up and be a man. Attitudes like that probably sent her over the edge anyways.

[One_of_8]

271. You are still making assumptions

If you have evidence that a white male who killed his spouse would have gotten off, and by that, I mean if you can direct me to some statistics or case studies or something besides your own statement, then I would be willing to look at the evidence and make my own decision. But you just claiming that a jury would have been enraged more by the wife's actions in pouring boiling liquid on her spouse, rather than the spouse's actions in murdering her -- then that's not enough to convince me.

I have been very mindful to call Michelle by her chosen name, and refer to her as "her" in each and every one of my posts. But you don't acknowledge that I've done so, nor even acknowledge that maybe the reason I'm against funding a sex change operation for her is based on economics, limited budgetary resources for healthcare for all inmates, etc., and not fear or bigotry.

I think we shall just have to agree to disagree on this one. If I am bigoted, it is against people who murder their spouses. I will acknowledge that bigotry.

[maddiejoan]

273. so would you be in favor of placing her in a women's prison?

and I mean with no surgery at all --would that be acceptable? It costs nothing extra.

[KingFlorez]

147. Why should this be taxpayer funded?

It's not a medical emergency in any way.

[NorthernSpy]

158. I bet this guy is angling for transfer to a women's prison...

Bad idea, in my opinion. Separation of the sexes is absolutely crucial for the safety of female prisoners.


:think:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

163. I doubt that is her reason.

And as a transexual, she is a woman. She should be allowed to be with female prisoners. Hormone therapy causes the redistribution of fat & muscle. In terms of physical strength, she's way more in line with a woman now.

[NorthernSpy]

175. not his primary reason, perhaps...

But I'd be surprised if transfer to a women's prison weren't one of his objectives.

And as a transexual, she is a woman. She should be allowed to be with female prisoners.

Robert Kosilek is a man, and a man who has already killed one woman. Female prisoners should be allowed to be without him.

Hormone therapy causes the redistribution of fat & muscle. In terms of physical strength, she's way more in line with a woman now.

A man with a Premarin habit is still a man. He remains mentally and physically unlike a woman. It would be a cruel and unusual punishment to force imprisoned women to live in close quarters with this violent, troubled man.

[maddiejoan]

178. uh huh.

Well if you say so. I guess I've just been kidding myself.


Looka mee! I'm a Man! WeeeeEEEEEEEeeeEEEEEeeeeeeeee!

Thank you. I'll go on and transition back now --cos you say so.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

179. Michelle Kosilek is a woman.

Estrogen therapy does physically change them to be closer to females.

Taken from wikipedia

Irreversible changes:
breast development,
enlarged nipples and areolae
stretch marks (for some)

Reversible changes:
decreased libido and changes in sexual behavior,
redistribution of body fat,
reduced muscle development,
various skin changes,
significantly reduced body hair,
change in body odor and sweat production,
less prominence of veins,
ocular changes,
genital size

Transgendered women are not mentally men. Mentally, they are women, hence being transgendered.

[ronnykmarshall]

190. AND a murdering asshole!

[LeftyMom]

195. Wait a minute

Incarcarated women are already exposed to and surrounded by other potentially violent women. Adding one more woman to the mix (and after hormone therapy Kosilek has much more in common physically with a woman than a man) will not change that reality.

[LeftyMom]

193. Thank you for pointing that out.

A friend of mine has a disease that has her hormones badly out of balance. Her testosterone level would be on the high side for a male of her age. Prior to hormone treatments, she had the build, strength and agressiveness of a typical male (and could easily have been mistaken for one from behind,) though her biology and gender identity are female.

I think people underestimate what very powerful things hormones are. If the comparatively minor hormonal fluctuations of the menstrual cycle or pregnancy can make such dramatic changes in the personality and physical being of a woman, the changes occuring in a person undergoing hormone therapy to bring thier outward manifestations of gender in line with thier inner identity must be powerful indeed.

[TheWraith]

191. HAHAHAHA NO!

[Misunderestimator]

205. Wrong on so many levels... The man killed his wife, and now he wants

to be a woman... So that he would then, what? be transferred to a woman's prison? Meanwhile, no other pre-op transsexual gets this surgery provided, no matter how dire their circumstance, nor how much such surgery would help them psychologically.

And anyone calling this transphobia is insane.

[maddiejoan]

210. Do you think of pre-op male to female transsexuals as "He"?

Thank you for calling me insane. If you referred to me as a "He", and then told me you weren't a transphobe, I'd jam my spiked heel into your arse.

[Misunderestimator]

213. Normally, no. A man who murdered his wife I would refer to as monster.

So, I was definitely wrong to refer to this monster as "he" and as how this monster was also referred to in the article. All of the pre-op and post-op transsexuals I know, I refer to as the gender they are going to be or have become.

[maddiejoan]

216. Monster???

So from a newspaper article you have deduced that you know every facet of this woman's life?

Who cares what the article refers to her as.

I've been living as a woman for over 12 years now, and ya know what?

If I got hit by a car going home tonight the newspaper would still say:

A 45 year old white male named Adam was hit by a car while dressed as a woman. Found on his body was a woman's purse containing his Driver's Liscense which used the name Madeleine.

[LynneSin]

221. Maddie, I have no idea what you've gone through with your life

Probably 99.9% of the people here at DU haven't any clue. But you'll find that all of us want to reach out and help the transgender community including Misunderestimator.

But this woman killed another woman and was convicted to a life sentence. I think most of us here cannot find any justification as to why this woman deserves our tax dollars to pay for a surgery when she could not find it in her heart to NOT terminate the life of another being. We have prisoners with basic, everyday medical needs not even being address and our tax dollars are stretched so far that we don't even have enough guards working prisons to ensure everyone's safety. I was told this surgury was only $7000 and yet there are so many people in prison in need of that money that this one person doesn't really come out as someone who deserves preferential treatment.

But the attitude of so many of us in here as to why this woman does not deserve the surgery does not mean that we are so heartless to the needs of transgenders out there in our community.

Your anger is misdirected at the wrong thing - not whether this person should get the surgery but instead it should be at the overall problem with how our country treats transgenders as a whole. Instead of fighting for a convicted killer who many of us find difficulty showing compassion when she showed none towards the woman she killed, but instead we should focus on those TGs out there in society whose needs are not being addressed and being treated like 2nd class citizens. That is where all of our anger should be directed!! Because although this woman has attempted suicide a few times, how many law-abiding TGs are out there who have attempted suicide because they do not have the funds for the surgery. Do they have to kill another human being in order to get free surgery?

I have little compassion for anyone who commits murder regardless of their sexual orientation but for transgenders as a whole, I think it's safe to say that most all of us here at DU do have a great deal of compassion to give.

[Midlodemocrat]

224. Nicely done, LynneSin.

:thumbsup:

[bleedingheart]

226. that about sums up how I feel about it

there are probably young transgendered folks who will never have enough cash to pay for the surgery and the hormone therapies who deserve the operation more than a murderer....my dream would be to see a fully funded national healthcare system where all folks got decent healthcare.

[Misunderestimator]

239. Thank you Lynne.

I appreciate you breaking it down like that. Well said.

[maddiejoan]

241. Were you there?

Do you truly know if Michelle's intent was to kill her wife --or was she sent into an uncontrollable panic/rage at having her genitals (already something as a trans woman she is focused on) hit with boiling liquid?

Again --I don't see it as preferential treatment --I see it as treatment. period.

My concern is that this case solidifies in many people's mind the incorrect notion that transgender reassignment is elective. Every little precident such as this re-enforces the status of the transgendered as second class citizens.

Look at the way the article was written for instance. It screams anti- transgender bias.

How many have attempted suicide because they couldn't get SRS? a darn good percentage including your's truly.

Michelle would not be getting preferential treatment at all. Instead she would be getting normal treatment. What she IS getting is extra punishment by not allowing her the surgery needed to get her out of a male population prison where she is in a great deal of peril (over and above the usual perils of prison) and into a female prison where she belongs.

Nobody is advocating that she get a full blown series of surgeries that would include a labiaplasty (cosmetic) facial reconstruction (cosmetic) breast augmentation (cosmetic) trachea shave (cosmetic). That would be expensive and ridiculous. A medically needed vaginoplasty as recommended by her psychiatrist is the last needed portionof her already addressed need to transition to a body that suits her gender.

As long as people like you who profess to be understanding of transgenders don't recognize this as a medically needed portion of some transsexuas treatment for GID --or the nessecity for transgendered women convicts to be populated in female prisons then there is little to no hope for un-incarcerated transsexuals like me to be taken seriously as a woman.

Don't want to spend the money? Fine -- populate her into a female prison without the SRS. She's already a woman in my book -- shriveled non-functioning penis included.

But as long as The State defines women by the presence of penis then yes --The State must pay for the surgery.

I, personally don't even believe SRS should be mandated in order to declare one's gender (it should be a right).

[Last Stand]

285. Premeditated, according to court records.

Rageful jealousy--she thought her wife was having an affair--led to the fateful decision. Nope, not the TG to make a stand for.

Think of this murderer as part of the reason there isn't enough money for medical care in the US> $35,000/year/prisoner = 5 operations for TG's per year!

[LynneSin]

330. You need to separate your feelings from this one incident

You're right - there should be surgery for everyone who needs it. But we have prisons with AIDS, HIV, HepC, Diabetes, High Cholesterol, and a host of other issues that we can barely cover financially.

So you recommend that we dismiss all these others needs for just this one person because for many states that's what it would be. $7k could pay for one surgery or for a host of necessary medications need to keep many people alive.

And again, it's like the only person in this world that I get the impression you believe needs the surgery is just this one person in prison who killed another person in cold blood. What about the thousands of other TGs living out there in mainstream america struggling with the horrible treatment they get from society, unable to find the funds for surgery and mentally exhausted from dealing with this everyday. They haven't committed a crime, no one is dead from their doing and yet they are denied surgery for the soul purpose of not having the cash to pay for it. I'd rather fight for them to get the surgery than a murderer (and from what I read - premediated).

This woman should NOT be the poster child for surgery. As I've said before, regardless of sexual preference or identity it was still murder. Someone no longer exists on this planet because of what this woman has done. If there is anything such as Karma in this world let it shine on those who are of the highest need which are those who have not killed in cold blood but denied simply because of money.

Call me whatever you want, accuse me of transphobia for all I care. I find your accusations meaningless because I have little sympathy for a murder of no importance. In the struggle for transgender to gain equality and their needs to be better represented by so many other than a murderer. And from reading the other replies to my post I realize that your opinion of me as a transphobia are pretty much just your own.

[maddiejoan]

342. I'm not making her a poster child

nor am I suggesting this for her sake.


Bottom line is this : The moment it is clarified legally that SRS is not medically necessary is the moment that insurance companies decide it isn't either. Hell even if we somehow got Universal Healthcare transgendered people would be denied surgery because it's like a "nose job" right?


Do you think it's an accident that this case is hitting so many nerves? Most people think of transgendered people as insane. Well small wonder we are -- You're not a woman without the surgery, but damned if we'll help you out.


This isn't about the murderer. This is about whether or not transgender surgeries are accepted as medically necessary for some transsexuals.

What's the real solution?

The real solution is to remove genitals from the equation all together and allow all humans the right to declare their own gender.

But as long as the State involves itself in defining gender for it's citizens, it has the obligation to attend to it.

Dont wanna pay for it? Don't tell me who I am.

[LynneSin]

392. It's hitting your nerves

For the rest of us we see a prisoner abusing the system.

It has nothing to do with transgender.

I'm just taking offense because you have called so many people in this thread transphobic and I find that offensive. There is nothing transphobic about people feeling that tax dollars are being wasted because this cold-blooded murder demands a surgery that takes away tax dollars hardly available for basic needs for prisoners.

As for the prison committing suicide? How many non-prisoner transgenders have committed suicide because they cannot get surgery because of money. My heart breaks for those and so many other dangerously close the edge in that same situation.

There is a dead person whose life was snuffed out because of this woman. I hardly weep a tear for her current situation. You have a problem because the overwhelmingly number of posters agree with me - that's your problem, not ours.

You want to start a thread about how healthcare should cover SRS surgery and we need to support it, you have our support - all of ours. But a murder does nothing to garner sympathy from anyone.

So please reply again and tell me how wrong you are because this is my last response. I feel by rereading this thread especially that last one several replies above this has justify my stance.

Just like I feel Mumia Abu-Jamal should NOT be the poster child for the anti-death penalty movement, I feel this woman is not either. You're using her as one. You want us to support your cause then start a new thread that isn't about her but about the overall cause.

[LynneSin]

399. Quick correction for my post

(I drove to work and re=read it and noticed a major typo)

So please reply again and tell me how wrong I AM because this is my last response. I feel by rereading this thread especially that last one several replies above this has justify my stance.

[maddiejoan]

407. "reply again and tell me how wrong you are"

"You want to start a thread about how healthcare should cover SRS surgery and we need to support it, you have our support - all of ours. But a murder does nothing to garner sympathy from anyone. "

Truth is I've seen enough out and out transphobia on this board to know for certain that I wouldn't recieve ALL DU'ers support on a healthcare system covering SRS...and I'm not including you in that group. You simply fail to realize this issue is not about the murderer for me --it's about the knee-jerk DU reaction that is evidenced in this thread by most (not all)

"So please reply again and tell me how wrong you are because this is my last response."

You've got to be kidding me. I'm not wrong. Not my problem that you can't recognize that the issue here isn't the murderer for me --it's the widespread transphobia that is still socially acceptable. Whether or not this killer gets an SRS is of zero importance to me --what IS important to me is the level of contempt for transgendered people that drips from most of the posts on this thread. And DON'T tell me it's not there --or how I should feel about it. How dare you tell me how to feel.

[theboss]

465. I have a lot of contempt for wife killers

Don't confuse my contempt for a murderer as contempt for a trans-sexual.

I'm not going to pretend that I understand transsexuals; my experience is limited to one neighbor who decided he was a woman at age 50 (she was a woman? I have no idea how to make the pro-nouns make sense in that one). But my little West Virginia small town accepted her, even if we didn't quite understand what was going on. The point is, a person can do what they want to their body in order to make temselves happy.

But a prisoner demanding that I - as a taxpayer - pay for this type of surgery. That is a leap. You can argue that it is "medically necessary" under a mental health discussion. And I would agree with you. But, frankly, prisoners' mental health is a long, long, long way down on my list of priorities.

My view is that our obligation to prisonsers is to maintain their physical health. Treat their cancer. Pay for their high blood pressure pills. Pay for heart surgery.

If the prisoner who is never going to be paroled goes crazy, I don't care. She could be asking for Prozac and I would be against it.

[maddiejoan]

467. Again

It's not about the convicted murderer. It's about the State declaring that SRS is frivilous elective cosmetic surgery.

It's about the media jumping all over this story in an effort to continue the mythic image of the transsexual killer.

It's about a progressive liberal board that doesn't ban obviously transphobic comments from some of the more unreasonable posters, when they would do so in a heartbeat for homphobic comments.

It's about an Insurance Company using this case as justification for denying needed healthcare to the transgendered.

This is so much bigger than this one individual convict.

[theboss]

470. Healthcare plans don't need this to deny the surgery

Neither does the state.

I work in the industry, and there are very few states that require coverage for anything. Certainly no state is going require that plans require this surgery.

There has never been case that defined "medical necessity" across the board. If she gets the surgery, it only means that future inmates can get it.

Nothing more/nothing less.

Healthcare plans can deny coverage for cancer if they want. Some policies have riders that do.

Terms of service are almost completely unregulated in this country. So stop arguing that this has some deeper meaning. It does not.

[madmusic]

250. "our tax dollars are stretched so far "

Did you look in Iraq? You might find a few dollars there.

[LynneSin]

320. True but don't the states cover their correctional institutions

Here in Delaware we have horrible funding for our prisons and it's been a major issue in our papers. But then again we got stuck with bill for Homeland Security and Leave No Child Behind that were underfunded but required by our federal government so I guess you have a point

[Misunderestimator]

238. Yes, this monster murdered a woman. That's enough for me.

[maddiejoan]

242. Is she more of a monster because shes transgendered?

You are all screaming she shouldn't get a reward from the State?

Should she get double the punishment by having to serve her sentence in a male prison?

Do you think transgendered women belong in male prisons or female prisons?

Im all for denying her SRS if she can serve her sentence in a female prison.

[Misunderestimator]

248. Of course not. Why the hell would you think that?

What in my post suggested that I think this person is a monster more because of the transgender aspect of it? I don't give one last care whether this monster is transgendered or not. I do care very much if we pay for surgery for a convicted murderer that is not provided for non-felons. That would be insane. Let her raise the money herself, the same way anyone else would. If gender reassignment surgery were provided to others free of charge or at a reduced cost by insurance, my attitude would be quite different.

[maddiejoan]

249. You seem to think that she deserves a worse punishment

incarcerating a transgendered woman in a male prison is a worse punishment than incarcerating a man in a male prison.

would you be willing to incarcerate her in a female prison? If not why not?

[Misunderestimator]

253. No, I don't. I hope that she can raise the money like anyone else.

And no, I would not be willing to incarcerate her in a female prison. I have a bias towards women. I think they have enough trouble protecting themselves from violent criminals.

[maddiejoan]

262. Let me get this straight

A maximum security female prison is no no place for a violent criminal. Thats what your saying?

[Misunderestimator]

274. Um... yeah. But this is someone who killed another person... as a man.

Whether I call that man a he or a she makes no difference to me. This man killed this man's wife.

But let me revise what you think I'm saying...I'm saying that a maximum security female prison is no place for a violent man.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

275. Except she is not a man. She is a woman.

Maximum security female prisons are filled with violent women so what's the issue.

[maddiejoan]

276. wrong.

SHE killed her wife as a woman. Transgendered women are women from birth.

That is what you don't get.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

234. Transexuals are often referred to by their biological gender in the press.

It does not make it right. I think all of the pre- and post-op transsexuals you know would agree.

[Misunderestimator]

237. I agree.

[Bombtrack]

337. uh, yeah

What's the absurd-level-of-pc-bullshit "phobe" word for someone afraid for and of the notion of people who want to give themselves a lobotomy ?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

338. Do you believe homophobia exists?

Then why is it so hard to believe that transphobia exists? It's really the last truly accepted group to discriminate against. Trans people have it WAY, WAY harder than gay people, even in liberal areas.

Or is homophobia just an "absurd-level-of-pc-bullshit 'phobe' word?

[maddiejoan]

373. Hmmmmm.

Bombtrack?

[Amaya]

214. who gives a shit what he wants

he's a convicted murder...

[maddiejoan]

217. wrong.

SHE's a convicted murderer. And she's being purposely kept from being in the correct prison by denying her the necessary surgery.

[noonwitch]

229. He killed someone, screw him

Perhaps justice for his poor dead wife means he has to spend the rest of his life in a man's prison, trapped in a man's body.

I don't have a problem with transexuals or anything. I just don't think this guy should get the surgery at taxpayer expense.

Just give him some duct tape for his stuff.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

235. If you really "didn't have a problem with transexuals or anything" you'd..

refer to her as "her" not "he." You'd call him a woman, not a guy. And even if you didn't support the surgery, you sure as hell wouldn't suggest "just give him some duct tape for his stuff."

[Name removed]

252. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

254. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

260. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SPKrazy]

255. Give Him Antidepressants, Put Him On Suicide Watch

give him hormones

but this is elective surgery no matter what anyone argues here, it is not a medical emergency to have a sex change, and it is nothing if not manipulative to say "I'll kill myself if I don't get my way"


Flame away, but would the world be worse off if he did kill himself?

He should have thought of that before he killed someone else.

[maddiejoan]

263. Next time somebody pours boiling liquid on your genitals

I'll be sure to check if you're thinking clearly.

[SPKrazy]

295. Excuses, Excuses

Come on

he killed her

she hurt him, but he killed her

that doesn't equal the right to have elective surgery

or how about we give it to him and he becomes her

then will she have to be moved to a women's prison?

[maddiejoan]

326. I'm not excusing the murder.

But thanks for the strawman.


Your calling it elective surgery doesn't impress me either.

If the prisoner had a brain tumour that was making her insane and the course of the treatment was to remove the tumour --would that be something The State should pop for?

If a simple vaginoplasty is too much money --would it be acceptable to move her to a women's facility? No extra cost there.

Like it or not Michelle, though a murderer, is a woman.

It is inhumane to keep her incarcerated in a male prison.

[SPKrazy]

332. "Next Time Someone Pours Boiling Liquid On Your Genitals"

"I'll be sure to check if you are thinking clearly"

Seems you put up the "strawman and I simply responded to that.

And I don't think this surgery compares to a brain tumor which if not removed might actually be the physical cause of death to her whereas not having a vagina won't cause her to die (except by her own hand)

Hey, I would feel for her if she weren't in prison for murder, but she is.


It is elective surgery

[maddiejoan]

345. No.

You said that Michelle should have thought clearly before she acted. I'm merely pointing out that a crotch full of boiling liquid isn't conducive to clear thinking.

also --my analogy didn't involve death of the patient --I said what if she had a tumour that caused her to be insane.


and by your definition then -- all surgery is elective.

[SPKrazy]

422. You Just Make Up Stuff As You Go Along?

all surgery is elective?

because I don't agree that someone should have the taxpayers pay for vaginoplasty?

Wow, just wow.

Peace

Done

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

268. So spending money on anti-depressants & special living arrangements...

is okay, but the surgery isn't? It'd probably be cheaper just to spend money on the surgery.

The fact that you call her "him" makes it pretty obvious that you don't understand or want to understand trans issues at all, regardless of whether or not the person is in prison.

[SPKrazy]

302. It Isn't Cheaper to Have Surgery

my Gawd, what world do you live in

antidepressants can be purchased for fairly low amounts, (older tricyclic ones)

solitary confinement with no belts, sheets, or shoelaces


and h/she hasn't had the surgery yet

and I understand a manipulative gesture just fine whether it comes from a transgendered sociopath, or a non-sexually reassigned sociopath.

have a good day

edited because my d-link wireless adapter is fried and I'm using the Mac and I spelled Isn't, Isn' because the damned keyboard feels different than my laptop computer's. hee hee

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

310. For the record, I live on earth.

In terms of cost..."The annual cost per insured US resident for SRS was $.06. Combined with the cost for hormones, doctor's office visits, and therapy, the total annual cost per insured for all THBs was $.39." That's for surgeries covered by insurance. It wouldn't even be that much added onto your taxes, because for over 1000 surgeries, it cost the insurers $.39 each total. So for this one guy, it'd cost the taxpapers what a fraction of a penny? I'm sure you have more change in your couch and you're not missing that.

[SPKrazy]

313. It's My Fucking Change In My Couch

don't you be telling me how to spend it

[madmusic]

256. Outrage of the Month!

Outrage!!!!!

[Bluebear]

265. A hit & run news story, apropos of little....

....at least it shows we can be "tough on crime". :eyes:

Whether you favor the taxpayers funding this or not, is it necessary to be so insensitive to transgendered people in the meantime?

[maddiejoan]

269. Some are so hot on punishing their "Monster"

while announcing they aren't transphobic --that they've not bothered to realize some of the incredibly hurtful things they've said to me!


I haven't strangled anybody --but in this thread I have learned that although they insist SRS isnt a medical necessity apparently I am a "he" until I get one.
Quite the conundrum for this gal!



-- Sir Madeleine Joan

[Bluebear]

270. I will always appreciate your opening my eyes

:hug:

[maddiejoan]

272. wasn't all that hard to open them :)

[dsc]

283. How much medical care should prisoners get

clearly they get medical care a typical person can't get for free. But the alternative is to let them die which is inhuman. If he is medically in need of the surgery give it to him.

[maddiejoan]

284. That's all I'm saying

and I appreciate what you are saying. If you go the extra step and acknowledge that she is a she --even better :)

[dsc]

287. I thought he was a he until he got the surgery

then he would be a she. If she is a she now then that if fine as well. I do think the anti transexual posts here are way out of line. At times I get pissed with the way gays get treated here but transexuals have a much, much, much more valid beef.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

290. Thanks for being an open-minded voice.

Generally, it's considered proper to call them by their identified gender regardless of whether or not they've had surgery. My friend Josh doesn't plan on getting surgery because doctors really can't make a good penis yet. He has been going by male pronouns since he came out as transgendered, even for the year or so before he went onto hormones. They do have to live for a year as the opposite sex before they can do any sort of medical transition.

[dsc]

293. No problem

I don't know any transexuals, at least not to my knowledge, but I do know what it is like to grow up feeling like shit because people hate you. I honestly fear for people in that position. At least harming gays physically has become much harder to get by with, I don't think that is the case with transexuals.

[maddiejoan]

375. Quite right.

Here's a website dedicated to preserving the memory of individuals murdered by transgender hate and killed by transgender prejudice.
Most murder of transgendered individuals goes unpunished, and often the fact that someone is transgendered is used as a reason that the murder was explainable.



http://www.gender.org/remember/#


Very sad stuff.

[maddiejoan]

296. A lot of people probably would argue you are correct.

But a lot of people would be incorrect.

Much as Gays and Lesbians recognize that sexual preference is something one is born with, Transsexuals recognize that gender preference is also something one is born with. I'm a non-operative transexual who has been "living fulltime" as a woman for the past 12 years --and feels she was born with a female gender. To refer to me as a "he" would be the height of insulting to me.


well that and teenagers who call me Ma'am --I'm only 45 --I'm not an old lady ;)

[brentspeak]

286. Convicted killer wants taxpayers to pay for a sex change? Uh, no.

Rotsa ruck, murderer.

[MrSlayer]

288. Looks a little like Ozzy.

This clown should have been hanged, not alive asking people to waste tax dollars on an unnecessary operation. Hopefully the state will tell him to fuck off and he goes through with his threat. This is flat out ridiculous.

[Bluebear]

291. 'on an unnecessary operation'

Where do you begin with this post?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

297. Unnecessary? What about this?

http://www.tsroadmap.com/physical/vaginoplasty/index.html

Vaginoplasty is currently required by law in order for women in our community to change the designation of their sex on many government documents. Therefore, it is considered in the eyes of the law to be medically necessary for our full social and legal recognition as females, in addition to its therapeutic benefits of bringing our minds and bodies into congruence.

[maddiejoan]

306. tell me about it

NY State allows me to list my gender as female on my Driver's License, but I have to list "male" on my Passport unless I get a vaginoplasty.
As I look not even remotely male it's quite a problem for me.

[SPKrazy]

309. Let's Try "Medically Necessary"

She needs to learn that when she killed her wife (when she was a man) she lost the chance to have worked to have this done.

She can raise money, and more power to her if she can raise it and have it done. But taxpayers paying for convicted murderers to have elective surgery?

Give me a break.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

311. She was never a man!

She was always a woman. Just born into the wrong body.

[SPKrazy]

312. Well That's Your Opinion

personally, I have no idea and neither do you

but the point is that she killed a woman (whether she was a man or a woman when she did it is irrelevant to the crime)

and now she wants us to pay for elective surgery

and if she doesn't get it she's going to kill herself

and.................

so we are supposed to pay for it now?

No thanks

How about you send her a donation, start a money raising campaign.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

315. Considering I personally know transgendered people, I think I know.

They would all agree with me. I was always a lesbian even before I came out.

[SPKrazy]

317. Aw, So You "Know" Transgendered people

but you missed the fucking point of my post!

she killed someone

we don't give people in prison elective surgery

tough shit Michelle

you did the crime, now do the time

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

321. It's a medical necessity

http://www.tsroadmap.com/physical/vaginoplasty/index.html

Vaginoplasty is currently required by law in order for women in our community to change the designation of their sex on many government documents. Therefore, it is considered in the eyes of the law to be medically necessary for our full social and legal recognition as females, in addition to its therapeutic benefits of bringing our minds and bodies into congruence.

[SPKrazy]

325. That Is Not A Medical Necessity

a medical necessity is a procedure that will save a life by restoring organ function, or repairing tissue damage that will result in death.

Not having gender reassignment surgery will NOT result in death, unless the person is demanding surgery or "I'm going to kill myself"

My God, how many people truly need medical care that don't get it in this world?

And she is whining about not having a vagina?

She should have thought about that before she killed her wife.

[ronnykmarshall]

346. Damn!

So when's ol' Chuck Manson gonna need surgery?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

349. What does that have to do with anything in this thread?

Are you having fun playing disruptor?

[ronnykmarshall]

406. It's like fishing in a barrel

[Nicole]

386. She was at one time!

She had been wearing a beard before the murder. How many women do that?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

402. Transgendered people are born into the wrong body.

Even if they're external appearence doesn't show it, they are actually the opposite gender.

BTW, there is a condition called hirstutism that can cause a woman to grow a beard.

[Nicole]

412. I realize that

I was just pointing out that Kosilek was not always dressing as a woman. That came after the murder.

BTW, I know what hirstutism is. Most women will shave it off though. Certainly a transgendered person who wants to be seen as a female would, wouldn't they?.

[SPKrazy]

453. But But But, We're Supposed To Believe The Killer

is just a victim of society, as she was just a woman in a man's external body and now needs a sex change operation to make her whole.

Maybe she is, maybe, she is just a sociopath and an unstable one at that

threatening suicide if she doesn't get her way


But I really don't know why I keep arguing here

[maddiejoan]

292. Here's another way to write the article.

Caught in mid-transition with her state supplied female hormones and laser hair removal, a transsexual woman convicted for the murder of her spouse is again asking the state to complete her prescribed treatment for Gender Identity Disorder.
Michelle Kosilek, who is serving life in prison for strangling her wife, was back in federal court yesterday, again requesting that the state Department of Correction finish the treatment they started.
snip
Kosilek, 57, claims she is suicidal and needs the sex change for medical reasons. A psychiatrist testified in federal court that Kosilek - will kill herself if the final surgery is not allowed and she is forced to serve her sentence in a male populated prison.
In 2002, Judge Mark Wolf ordered the DOC to provide him with female hormones but refused to order the surgery. Though Kosilek has also received estrogen therapy and the more expensive laser hair removal treatments behind bars she would like the state to finish the course of treatment.

[npincus]

301. I'll pay for some rope...

[Bluebear]

308. Very progressive sentiment. nt

[madmusic]

314. Maybe Last Stand (50 posts) was doing a freeper check n/t

[Last Stand]

336. Only Freepers agree with the OP comment?

Lots of Freepers here, I guess.

This Murderer, gender issues aside, will have cost the taxpayers $1-2M in legal and Corrections costs if she lives to an average age. She got electrolysis and Hormone therapy already--things that law abiders can't get comped--and wants to run up the tab a whole lot more.

Maybe when she is done repaying the taxpayers for the cost of her murder, people would feel differently. We could help alot of transgenders in the free world with that kind of money, eh?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

339. The cost of allowing her to have the surgery and transfer to a women's

facility are negliable to the extra therapy and security involved in not providing her with that.

[maddiejoan]

350. B-B-But

then the magic penis that confers identity is gone!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

353. Is that like the magic fridge is that beer commercial?

:)

Penises are so much less trouble when they're kept in drawers...unless you're in Texas or something.

[maddiejoan]

355. Geeeee.

To think they could have saved themselves $2M bucks if they just gave her a $7,000 dollar vaginoplasty.


Penny wise and dollar foolish.

Oh well we needn't worry about her living to an average age as a mid-transition trannie in an all male lock up.

Why they didn't just shoot her in the back of the head as she entered the prison gates is beyond me.

[Bluebear]

362. The death penalty is NOT progressive. nt

[madmusic]

368. Yeah, lots I think

So with $1-2M what's a few thousand more? And are you saying you're already out helping transgenders but run out of funds? Or is the concern only in this thread?

[NuttyFluffers]

369. this flame war makes me sad.

:(

the major difficulty people seem to be having is dealing with the humanity of a criminal. it's a very hard thing to come to terms with, especially with the conflated issues of prejudice atop it. no good will come from our bickering, because far too many of us cannot get beyond such hurdles. crime and punishment is hard, and this is why professionals, representing a disembodied entity called 'the state,' need to be arbiters.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

370. I actually asked for it to be locked a couple hours ago, but no luck.

[maddiejoan]

376. At least I've learned who my friends are here.

and who would no doubt giggle at me on the street.

[SPKrazy]

451. You Know, I Doubt Anyone Would Giggle At You

unless you had a booger on your nose or something

I've got nothing against transgendered persons

and I think you know that my and most who are in disagreement with you are complaining about the killer getting taxpayer funded treatment (especially in light of the fact that non-killers don't get that treatment) so when you go off (if you did) calling people transphobes, or tag teaming people who don't agree with you, you aren't identifying friends as much as you are just identifying people who agree with you.

As a liberal, I would fight for your rights to be whoever you are, and to have whatever treatment you needed in your life to make you happy and right within yourself. But I don't think you are a killer in prison. And I've read and re-read your arguments and I can say that I think that you certainly are as adamant about your view as I am about mine.

I don't want to change you, or your view. Just don't call me a "transphobe" because I don't agree with you.

Peace!


(Now if you look anything like your avatar, I might laugh at you!):pals:

[maddiejoan]

469. I don't believe I've referred to you as a transphobe at all.

If you referred to Michelle as Robert, He, He/She, It or anything that doesn't acknowledge her gender than I would have called you transphobic.

[SPKrazy]

476. Okay

I'd still only giggle if you look like your avatar!

B-)

[maddiejoan]

478. I don't

I actually look like what if Joan Jett and Wally Cox had a daughter.

[SPKrazy]

481. You Mean Like This?

Joan


and Wally


and baby

[maddiejoan]

483. Nope. Like this.

[NorthernSpy]

391. on the contrary, I have no difficulty acknowledging Kosilek's humanity

I do recognize Robert Kosilek's humanity. His betrayal of his own humanity is what got him where he is today.

If Kosilek weren't human, no one would be angry with him, because there would be no moral dimension to his actions. When a shark kills someone, we don't get angry with the shark; nothing a shark does is either right or wrong, because a shark is not a moral being.

No one here is arguing that the legitimate medical needs of prisoners should go unaddressed. But the emphasis, for many of us, is on legitimate and medical -- descriptions that don't seem to fit Kosilek's requested sex change operation.

The people of Massachusetts have been more than decent to Robert Kosilek. But they really don't owe it to him to fund an elective amputation, no matter how dearly he wants it.

[maddiejoan]

408. That's the problem I'm having.

The issue for me isn't whether MICHELLE Kosilek gets HER vaginoplasty or not.

The issue for me is that people on this board actually believe that a vaginoplasty for a transgendered woman is merely an elective cosmetic surgery.

If it were merely an elective cosmetic surgery, then one wouldn't be required to have notes from 2 psychiatrists, and 1 physician plus forced to live for the period of one year with no hormonal assistance in the gender of one's choosing.

By proclaiming SRS is not legitimate or medically necessary you are announcing your belief that transgendered people are engaging in pointless body modification and thus you are trivializing our very real dilemna.

Conversely if you do believe it's no more needed than any elective surgery, than a transgendered person should be able to just book SRS as easily as a boob job.

Further, if you don't wish to be considered transphobic then it would behoove you to refer to Michelle by the proper name and pronouns. Again --it's not about HER --it's about respect for transgendered people in general. Everytime someone insists on referring to a transgendered woman as a man it makes me cringe.

The reason the media plays this stuff out with transsexuals who are hookers and murderers is because they seek to trivialize the transgender experience. Guess what --it's working. We;'re marginalized. Happy?

[madmusic]

409. We do get pissed at sharks

And want to kill them. Same with mountain lions and alligators. Note the recent REPUBLICAN effort to kill all the alligators in Florida because of their crime wave.

[SPKrazy]

447. And Those Who Think That We Should All Just Agree With Them

that a murderer should get surgery, when there are posters on this board who are not murderers that can't get the surgery flame away calling us "transphobics" and "ignorant" people.

I'm sorry, I won't ever think a prisoner in for life for killing someone should get this surgery.

Especially when there are people who haven't done any crime who can't get it.

[undergroundpanther]

379. This pisses me off!

I am transgender...I have broken no laws,I'm not in jail yet I can't get a double masectomy!!And That would cost 6,800 bucks I can't afford.This is so fucking pathetic a setrial killer can get a body he can live in,but a law abiding citizen can't AAARGh!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

381. Don't worry, she's not getting the surgery.

She's not a serial killer, just a standard killer.

[maddiejoan]

382. Might wanna change that to "She", Haruka

I know it's late. I'm exausted from this thread myself --but couldn't resist tweakin' ya on the slip up ;)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

383. Gah...I can't believe how long I've been on this thread. I need to sleep.

Thanks. It's fixed.

[undergroundpanther]

385. born to make typos..

Anyways maybe the slip up wasen't such a slip I mean she getting help a murderer while millions of law abiding transpeople like me,just have to lump it,try not to kill ourselves as we try to save up despitte everything costing more and more..that she the murderer get help..is just so unfair.

[maddiejoan]

397. Interesting.

So you would feel that a prisoner suffering from clinical depression shouldn't recieve antidepressents when there are millions of people with depression just have to lump it and try not to kill themselves?

Do you also think SRS is medically unecessary? Your stance is just helping Insurance companies tell us why they don't insure SRS of any kind.

[undergroundpanther]

420. My stance

Is about helping trans people who are not murderers first.
I don't waste my time pitying sociopaths and giving them preferential care. I don't care if she's trans, she killed someone. I am trans I killed no one and yet I suffer and she gets help.Way more expensive help than what I need.I took nobody's life away.She did.I am just as suicidal as she is,over this yet I get no help..Why does SHE get help for a problem that torments her while millions of trans people who have not murdered anyone get to suffer or try to save up when they are poor or unable to,why is a killer getting preferences law abiding people don't get?? I think murderers should be last on the list of who gets help with trans issues.Take care of the trans people who are not killers rapists or pedophiles FIRST.Why? because they did not make themselves a threat to society.Let this killer be put at the back of the line,sure give her therapy to help her deal,but don't give her surgery before others who have struggled just as hard but have not killed anyone,have a chance to get it .Not my fault or the millions of other trans people waiting for help who could use that help too.. that she killed someone.Priorities are what I am speaking of...Killers are not safe citizens anymore..Trans or not.Take care of suffering people who can restrain themselves from cold blooded murder first.I'm not saying don't give her surgery I'm saying put her at the back of the line.

[madmusic]

444. My stance

I say none of you should get the operation unless you pay for it yourself, because, uh, because, mmm, got it! Because we have starving children right here in the U. S. of A. and they never hurt anyone.

How do we feed the children? Cut about 30 billion from the prison budget. Or cut the education budget and give it to the prisons to make up for it (we already do that). Or maybe all lobbyist payoffs should to to charities. Or maybe 1% of defense spending could go to the children. (The U.S. has approximately half of total national security spending for the entire world.) Once those children are healthy and plump, you can get in line, provided they are getting a good education, have full health insurance and have clothing and toys.

But what about their mothers? No use having healthy children if their mothers are lacking, so the same for them.

And fathers?

You're way, way back of the line now.

But, hey, it was a good idea!

[SPKrazy]

445. Now You Should Be Able To Get Your Surgery

not manipulative sociopaths who are in jail for murder and say "I'll kill myself if I don't get my way"

Good luck

Someone suggested Thailand and I read someone else said that they had their surgery there.

Must be frustrating to be in your position.

Peace

[madmusic]

448. If there were national healthcare...

No need for this debate at all.

But noooooooo. We spend all our money on prisons and "defense."

EDIT: That means we are having the WRONG debate.

EDIT: That means this is a wedge issue, and it's working well. Look at all the liberal blood in this thread, and look at the prison industry and defense contractors laughing all the way to the bank.

[SPKrazy]

450. Some Good Points

it's interesting who keeps stabbing the liberals who don't agree with them

ya gotta wonder why it is so important to attack as a tag team anyone who disagrees with them

But you are right, the debate is wrong

national healthcare should pay for GRS or SRS given the same protocols are used as are now and this wouldn't be an issue (I guess, assuming prisoners were given the same healthcare, and I see no reason why they wouldn't unless they were dropped and put into a prison health system-and I'm not advocating that either)

[pitohui]

390. have you looked into thailand?

my friend was able to get the surgery there and is very pleased w. the results, however, she was going from male to female, which there is much more surgical experience

i don't know too much about going female to male

but worth a look, many europeans do thailand as well

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

403. Female to male is more expensive. nt

[undergroundpanther]

421. I can't afford a plane ticket to thailand

Disability pays below the poverty line. I am lucky to eat.

[SPKrazy]

446. I'm Sorry To Hear That

I don't know what a plane ticket to Thailand costs, but are there any foundations that help persons in your situation? I don't know.

[undergroundpanther]

459. they have very very long waiting lists

[panader0]

389. Several years back there was a couple here in So. Az.

who decided they were each the wrong sex. He became a woman (?) and she became a man. I saw them one night at a small market. She was 6'5" (an ex-marine) and he was 5'3" with three whiskers. People can do what they want. I felt a little sory for their daughter (conceived before the change) I guess it's possible that some people could feel that they're in the wrong body. Don't understand it myself.

[maddiejoan]

395. I don't understand you.

Why exactly do you feel sorry for their daughter? Because she'll be raised by a couple that obviously love each other? That she'll be raised in a tolerant home? I guess you feel that they should have divorced --and given up their daughter for adoption to a more "normal" couple?

[SPKrazy]

449. I Don't Feel Sorry For The Daughter

But I would hope that she has some support going through this

It is a big change to go from calling Mom to Dad, and Dad to Mom (if that is what they did)

I would hope that if no one else would, that the state could pay for the child and the family to have some therapy to help everyone adjust to new roles.

And to help the girl deal with the ripple effects, like explaining it to her friends, etc.

But I see no problem with the sex changes, as long as the child is remembered as being someone who is likely to be drastically affected, despite the fact that the couple may or may not love their child (since that is only an assumption you made, but one I hope is true) as it is a big adjustment, don't you agree?

edited to add the height difference would also take a lot of people by surprise as the "traditional" man taller than the woman is greatly reversed (6'5" female external body now and 5'3" male external body now) is over a foot's difference.

You have to admit that society is used to seeing a man a foot taller than a woman more than a woman a foot taller than a man. Now don't say I'm a height bigot, it just hit me that it is just one more thing that the girl will have to learn how to explain to people who meet her parents.

[NorthernSpy]

393. Almost 400 posts... It's the Cat Man thread of 2006!

Whatever became of Cat Man, anyway?

:think:

[anewdeal]

394. I'm pissed off that freak gets free hormones

pay for your own hormones, much less medically unnecessary surgery.

[maddiejoan]

396. Delightful post.

Do you think the State should cease all medications dispensed to prisoners for treating mental issues?

[anewdeal]

434. if you want to change up your genitals, use your own money

would you support paying for breast and penis enlargement to whoever wanted one??

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

436. No I wouldn't and that is not the same as transgenderism.

There is no informed logical connection there.

[AlienGirl]

455. Would you refuse to support paying for repair of a harelip?

That, too, is "elective."

Tucker

[maddiejoan]

468. The notion that you find those comparable in seriousness is disturbing.

WE're talking about core identity issues -- not cosmetic surgery

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

405. Is she a freak because she's a murderer or a freak because she's trans? nt

[theboss]

401. Is it wrong that I don't care if she kills herself?

I really don't.

[SPKrazy]

427. Since She Will Kill Herself If That's What She Wants To Do

ultimately it is a gambit of manipulation to say "I'll kill myself if I don't get_________"

What will the next __________ be to keep her alive?

Sometimes there is nothing one can do to keep a person from killing themselves, and within reason, I don't think offering surgery to someone who is unstable enough to make this kind of manipulative statement is the right thing to do.

We're all ultimately responsible for our own lives and destinies

[Freddie Stubbs]

414. There is a big difference between 'wants' and 'needs'

The state should not have to pay for prisoners' wants.

[maddiejoan]

415. who are you to say it's a "want"?

Are you more qualified then the psychiatrist who is addressing it as a "need".

Unreal.

[Freddie Stubbs]

418. Are you saying that being transgendered is an illness?

:shrug:

[AlienGirl]

419. It's a genetic, endocrinological, and neurological syndrome

[SPKrazy]

426. Wow, Wait Until The Flamers Read This!

I've never heard this personally, but it is an interesting view.
Any links or information regarding this?

Watch out you will be labeled "transphobic" before long

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

428. Actually, no she won't be. Sorry to disappoint.

Gender Identity Disorder is listed in the DSM-IV, as was homosexuality until 1977. It's a double-edged sword because without that listing treatment could potentially be harder to obtain, but at the same time, it does cause people to think it's a mental disease, which I don't really think it is.

DSM-IV GID listing

[SPKrazy]

429. I Didn't Ask For Your Tutelage On The DSM

well versed in it

I was asking about the poster's assertions that it is a genetic, endocrinological, and neurological syndrome.

Never heard the neurological part of that and wondered where it came from.

But you wouldn't flame a moderator now would you

but you'd love to flame me for not agreeing with you

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

430. If she said something stupid, then I would, but she didn't, so I won't. nt

[SPKrazy]

431. Have A Wonderful Day!

stupid?

so now you're implying that what people you've flamed on here say "stupid" things

because they don't agree with you, they are stupid?

Wow

talk about an ego

and you aren't even clever about it

[AlienGirl]

456. Eventually, it'll land firmly within Endocrinology and Neurology

Epilepsy was once considered a mental disease, too, and before that it was attributed to demon possession...nowadays, nobody but the most backward would think an epileptic belonged in a mental ward, but it used to be common.

Tucker

[maddiejoan]

433. why would she be labeled transphobic?

She's correct.

[SPKrazy]

442. So, Gender Identity Disorder

is an illness?

a syndrome?

I thought the argument above is that they are really a _____ (man or woman) trapped in a _____ (opposite gender's) body

and it is genetic, neurological, and endocrinological disorder?

Sounds like you are arguing that it is a disease

and the cure is to give her a vaginoplasty?

if it is a disease, then why wouldn't one search for cure?

I don't think it is a disease

I think that GID is actually the case of genetic malfunction, but I don't see he neurological aspect of it? In what way is it neurological? Brain formation?

You know, I asked a fucking legitimate question of Alien Girl, and said I thought you flaming attackers and defenders of a killer named Michelle would probably be all over her. Instead you are all over me again.

And all I've done here is ask a question about information, links, or where to find this information since it is not my understanding that there are neurological mechanisms involved in GID.

So flame the fuck away!

I guess I could say "give her a sex change" and I'd still be attacked because there seems to be some sort of mob mentality in attacking me since I don't agree with you and I respond back

[AlienGirl]

458. It is a syndrome; the cure is gender reassignment

The basic mechanism behind GID appears to be that the embryonic brain takes on characteristics of one sex, then later the body takes on characteristics of the other sex (or winds up indeterminate and is surgically assigned to a gender opposite that of the brain). This happens because "brain sex" is determined very early in fetal development (prior to 8 weeks) while genital appearance doesn't differentiate until much later on. (Sometimes there are other issues like mosaicism--where someone has some cells that are XX and others that are XY, or Kleinfelter's syndrome, where the person has XXY* karotype, but let's assume we're talking about someone with all cells consistent and containing a normal set of sex chromosomes.)

Let's say we have an XY embryo. The embryo has been XY since conception; all its cells are XY. Normally, there will be a small surge in testosterone before the 8th week of gestation, and a normal male brain forms. But in this case, the testosterone surge doesn't happen. The brain remains female in structure, having things like a larger corpus callosum and more bilaterally-distributed speech centers. Later on, around 15 weeks, the fetus's body again is slated to produce testosterone. If it doesn't, an apparently-normal XY girl baby is born, and no one will know she isn't XX until puberty or later. If the fetus whose brain has already become female does produce the testosterone spike, however, the genitals masculinize, and an apparently-normal boy is born--with a female brain.

So, does the gender of that child come from the chromosomes, or the brain, or society's expectations? Increasingly, evidence is pointing toward the brain; female-brained people will identify as female regardless of their karotype or genitalia. Male-brained people will identify as male, no matter if they have a uterus and are put in frilly dresses.

Okay, that's a simplification cause I haven't gone into the SRY/DAX1 stuff or the way tissues seem to be primed for one or the other set of hormones. But you get the idea: it's a complex physical disorder, and the cure is to adjust the body and social roles to reflect accurately the sex of the brain.

Tucker

*or XXXY, XXXXY, etc.

[maddiejoan]

461. I didnt attack you.

I just said Aliengirl was correct.

a syndrome is not a disorder --it is a compilation of "symptoms".

Those are as she detailed due to any variety of conditions which can effect the brain (it has been demonstrated for example that mtf trannsexuals have "female brains particularly in the corpus callosum)

That many are intersexed (endochrinolgical)

Genetic as well in that many transsexuals are found to have chromosomal variations.


I've never had a brain scan --but I do have endochronilogical issues that cause me to be androgen insensitive, and I do have genetic issues that cause my chromosomal make up to be xxy/xy mosaic.


It's not a disease --and the myth about being "trapped in the body of the opposite sex" is laughable.

That's the Hollywood take.


I didn't realize that defending someone else's assertion meant I was attacking you, but whatever floats your boat.

[UncleSepp]

435. ROFL Southpaw, you could not be more wrong

AlienGirl? Transphobic?

:rofl:

Try Google for links or information, or a library, if you actually want to know. If you'd rather use "Links??" as some kind of challenge to an obvious statement, well, that just exposes your own ignorance.

[SPKrazy]

437. Did I Say I WOULD LABEL HER SUCH?

HELL no!

read my post

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

438. He even got annoyed that I didn't think she was transphobic.

Apparently, I only agreed with her because she's a mod. :eyes:

[Name removed]

440. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

441. Hey Southpaw

Welcome to ignore!

[SPKrazy]

443. As In The Rules

If you say I'm on ignore, you better put me there

"Do not say that you are hitting the alert link to report another member. You are permitted to tell someone that you are adding them to your ignore list, provided that you actually do so."

[SPKrazy]

439. Man, You Are Just Rude!

calling me ignorant

I asked for more information

not picking a fucking fight like you obviously are interested in

[AlienGirl]

454. Some places to start your reading:

http://www.tgcrossroads.org/news/?AID=428&IID=&type=News
http://jadephoenix.org/lvtgw/Info_htm/General/tg-gene.htm

Any biogeek keeping up with the research will have this "interesting view." Even more interesting, there may be an immunologic component; TG people with autoimmune disorders have been known to experience spontaneous remissions when their hormone level is adjusted to one that matches their brain's gender.

As for being labelled transphobic... :spray: :rofl:

Tucker

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

457. Good articles.

I sort of remember reading about "Sex Reversal Syndrome" in a biology class. The immunologic component is something I never heard about before. That's really interesting. I'd be interested to see what further research reveals about that.

[SPKrazy]

477. Well, I Guess I Misinterpreted Your Post On This

initially because I thought that you were saying it is a disease (which in a sense you are if you consider disease to be a state of dis-ease) but you explained it well in a post above.

And the thought was that you would be flamed for saying it was a disease.

And the beat goes on!:bounce:

[Freddie Stubbs]

463. That sounds like a fancy way of saying that it is a disease

Until the 1970's homosexuality was classified as such, and even to this day some people are still insisting that it can be cured.

[AlienGirl]

475. "Syndrome"="grouping of traits or symptoms that go together"

Syndromes may or may not be impairing to a person who has them. Some syndromes are only impairments to the extent that the outside world isn't well-adapted for them, and can be "cured" by changing the physical or social spaces to allow full access.

Tucker

[maddiejoan]

432. No.

Where do you get that I was?

[Freddie Stubbs]

462. Then why would treatment be 'needed' if it is not an illness?

:shrug:

[maddiejoan]

466. Because most people buy into the myth of gender as a polarity

Instead of a Spectrum.


I don't personally require a vagina to consider myself a woman. But I'd say a good percentage of people posting on this thread think I'm "He" because I've got 3 inches of shriveled up man-meat nestled in my panties.

[theboss]

471. Just a question out of curiosity...

Obviously, this is an issue very close to you and I respect that. But I think it may be too close for you to have any perspective on it. You are basically arguing that anything other the full embrace and acceptance of trans-sexuals is transphobia.

Which leads me to the question. I can wrap my ahead around the idea that someone can be born a man but should have been born a woman. I have no problem in anyone having surgery to change their geneder to thier true self. But I would never in a million years date someone who was born a man and later became a woman.

Is that a "trans-phobic" belief?

Because if the person is really a woman, and I am attracted to woman...I should have no problem with it, correct?

[maddiejoan]

473. It's not transphobic at all.

I have no problems with your position at all. FWIW I'd never in a million years date a man that didn't feel comfie bringing me home to meet his mother.

[kevinbgoode]

452. Actually, I believe every tranny should sue each state

that passed a constitutional amendment "defining" marriage for a sex-change operation at taxpayer's expense, claiming this is the only way the state allows access to hundreds of benefits and responsibilities reserved exclusively for heterosexuals. And then watch the fundies heads explode.

[Vinca]

464. Eureka! A solution to my inability to afford health insurance and

a way to fund the orthopedic surgery I need. Commit a crime and go to jail!

[slackmaster]

472. How dare you look at the Big Picture and ruin a good flame thread?

You're making too much sense.

Turn in your DUer card at once.

[madmusic]

474. Yeah, right, it really makes sense to ignore the fact...

... that we don't have universal health care. Forget that and drive the wedge in deeper instead.

This is how we lose elections. No stand and too many agree with the Repugs on too many issues. No, too many fall for how they frame the issues.

[stepnw1f]

482. Right Wingers Always Pick Easy Targets

like bullies on a playground. But when you get them alone, they are cowards. Everyone of them!