Does the Democratic compliance with Big Brother bother you?

[Armstead]

Poll question: Does the Democratic compliance with Big Brother bother you?

This is a poll, but I'll be upfront about my own opinion.

I am thoroughly disappointed and angry with the Democratic response -- or non-response -- to the increasingly intrusive expansion of the national security apparatus under the GOP since 9-11.

I am not against reasonable security measured in the post 9-11 era. And I'm not a conspiracy theorist. But the response and the systems and changes in the law go far beyond reasonable responses. It's frigging Orwellian -- and I'm not one who usually thinks in those terms.

I don't blame the Republicans or Bush for this. They are just being what they are. It's part of their job to try to rein in freedom of average Americans.

But IMO the Democratic Party leaders have been reprehensible in their kowtowing, cowardice and/or complicity in it. There are, of course, exceptions, such as John Conyers and others. But as a whole and as an institution, they are proving to be lilly-livered enablers of nascent Orwellian intrusions on the basic fabric of our nation.

This has been building for a while, but the last straw was their sheeplike approval of Hayden -- a man who was at the center of the data-mining.

Unless the Democrats become the Party of Freedom, they are in danger of becoming irrelevant.

Do you agree or disagree?

(I'd also be interested in an explanation of why anyone who disagrees does disagree.)

[bryant69]

1. Addendum to my vote

I will say I generally support the Democrats in Congress - but in many specific areas I think they are making mistakes.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Armstead]

3. I'm rather reasonable and tolerant about them but....

I am just soo pissed off that they are allowing systems to be put into place tht will be impossible to undo when and if common sense every returns.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

2. Well, they are the minority,

but they've pretty much conducted themselves as spineless, ass-sucking weasels with no respect for the American people, the Constitution, or anything faintly construed to be liberal Democratic philosophy, so I'd have to go with Door Number Four, and hope they all go through it and never return.

There are exceptions, of course, but they're too few to mention.

[Armstead]

5. You put it more bluntly thn I but....

...that's basically the gist of how i feel when I think about it.

[IsIt1984Yet]

14. I'll mention an exception. Feingold.

:thumbsup:

[SeattleGirl]

4. Other: Because they are in the minority, and because of the way

the Republicans abuse THEIR power, it's very difficult for the Dems to get their points across, or to make a dent in things, or even get one word in (how many times have they been totally shut out of meetings on various and sundry things). So, because of that, I can't put total blame on the Dems for not standing up -- even when they try, most of the time they get shot down right away.

However, I don't completely excuse them either. When it comes to votes on things/people/issues, there is no excuse for them to vote in favor of, or against, things that aren't in the best interests of the party or the people of this country. Even if they ARE in the minority, and every one of them voted in the way that would be best for us, and they would still lose the vote, that's NO EXCUSE for them voting to go along with the destructive ways of the Republican party. Just because you are in the minority, doesn't mean you can't and shouldn't stand up for what is right. The Hayden vote disgusted me, with the number of Dems who voted for him (including Senator Murray from Washington). Yes, Hayden would have been confirmed because the Repukes outnumber the Dems, but WTF were the Dems who voted to confirm THINKING?

Sometimes David CAN slay Goliath, but only if David puts his whole heart and soul into the fight. Sometimes the Dems demonstrate neither.

[lyonn]

6. Dems incompetence started after 9-11 and

hasn't stopped, with few exception. Wexler is doing quite a bit of shinning lately. The exceptions are far too few. What are they thinking? Votes? Boggles the mind. Where is the questioning over our Iran policy, only a few signed letters to the Pres. asking for Congressional approval before any strikes. No more diplomacy, shot now and ask questions later.

[tives12]

7. It's unfortunate that corporations have a hold of both parties.

Too bad that campaigns are no longer based on ideas but rather on money.

[Armstead]

10. I don't think this abotu corporations

I agree with you that the Dems are too snug in bed with Corporate America at the epense of the rest of us.

Howeer, in this particular instance, I don't think that's the motivation here. After all, the Corporations are getting bit by this stuff along with the rest of us. It gores their ox in many ways too.

No this is a case of cowardice, IMO. Even if most Americans want Big Brother, it ought to be the Democrats job to convince them otehrwise.

[tives12]

12. Well, I do think that the politicians think about how their donors

will react before they act on anything. Some politicians more than others, but I think they do nevertheless. They are more concerned about getting re-elected than serving their people. And of course, I think there are exceptions. Sorry if it appears as though I'm generalizing.

[zeemike]

8. And we also understand why they do it

Because there bread is buttered by the same people as the Rethugs, at least most of them.
I mean when Hillary gets a fund raiser by Murdock it does not take a genius to figure that out.

[Acadia Blue]

9. Right. We need a new democratic party or a viable third party. I would

pitch my democratic senator out if someone more liberal ran against her.

[zeemike]

18. Welcome to DU

And from reading your profile i take it you would support the idea of raising the minimum wage to $10 an hour.
I is an idea of mine that I am trying to make popular by repeating it every chance I get.

[Ksec]

11. Damn straight it bothers me

Not only the spying on americans, but other things also.

Theyre just dying to get another party started and that would be the death of the Dem party.

This whole corporate worship bothers me.

[Demeter]

13. Just About Everything About the Democrats Bothers Me

and that's bothersome!

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

15. Wow, two votes so far for...

"...The Democrats are being forceful and solid defenders of liberty."

I didn't know Lieberman and Hillary were DUers.

[man4allcats]

16. I agree with you, but

I do not agree that it's part of the job of Republicans and Bushco in general to try to rein in freedom of average Americans. They think this is part of their job, and because they think so they have in fact devolved into the American Fascist Party. Failure, this or any other, is the result of one's refusal to recognize and/or own up to one's responsibilities. The Republicans will have to accept history's judgment for this failure. Unfortunately, the rest of us will have to suffer for it in ways that far exceed a judgment by history.

[Armstead]

20. It was a turn of phrase

To put it anotehr way, I'm not surprised at the GOP's actions, because this is what they do. I don't condone it, but I don't expect anything better from them, unfortunately.

However, we SHOULD expect better from the Democrats. That's what really pisses me off.

[man4allcats]

22. AGREED! - Again!

We know what the repugs are, but the Dems should be functioning on a different level. It's who we are, and Dems that don't subscribe to this need to go. Thanks for your post!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. The "not as bad" wing of the corporate/nationalist party.

I have very low expectations of any politicians. Unfortunately, they seldom fail to surprise me by doing anything ethical or courageous.

[Cookie wookie]

19. I am sorry to say it and even

more sorry to have finally come to the conclusion that those democrats who are voting yes on nominations like Gonzoles, Alito, and Hayden are willing and knowing collaborators in the destruction of our democracy.

Up until Alito, I kept a sense of disbelief and kept making excuses for them. Now I don't think they are cowards. I think they are as deliberate about what they are doing as * is. That's painful to think, let alone write down.

But we have to face it, there is no excuse, none whatsoever, for any human being who has any kind of moral code or ethics, who values what was once our democracy, to vote yes for any of these three, not to mention things like the patriot act.

So, it's reckoning time. Bizarro world is our world now. I can't begin to express how I feel knowing that other than that exceptional few, we have no voice in Washington against the fascist takeover of our country, not only no voice, but those who were supposed to be on the side of right have joined the other side. No recourse. No support. No where to turn. Think about all the work we've done, writing them, phoning, emailing, faxing, begging, pleading for them to do the right thing and time and time again they have chosen to go the way of the fascist * administration.

At least we have Dean, Feingold, Wexler, Boxer, Conyers, McKinney, Holt, and a few others.

[Armstead]

23. Yeah, and they charaterize Feingold and Conyers as "left wing nuts"

People like Feingold and Conyers are what I consider old-fashioned freedom-loving Americans.

The real radicals are the ones who are going along with Big Brother Bush.

[Nevernose]

21. This is why Democrats lose -- lack of principle

Stand up for what you know is right, and not the ridiculous polls that say "99% of uninformed Americans believe that personal privacy is irrelevant."

That's why we have a republic -- we're too busy paying our frigging bills, so you're supposed to know better!

Harry Truman is rolling over in his grave. Get some backbone, folks! And God bless Howard Dean!

[Time for change]

24. I agree, except for one thing

I don't understand why you say you don't blame Bush or the Republicans for this - "it's part of their job to rein in freedom for average Americans."

How is that their job? The job of the President is to enforce the laws of the land and our Constitution, not to rein in freedom. Were you being facetious about that?

[Armstead]

26. See the above post -- It was a turn of phrase

I don't condone what the GOP does. It's just that I epect it from them.

I expect better from the Democrats.

[in_cog_ni_to]

25. HELL YES it bothers me and if I had a VIABLE PROGRESSIVE Party

to vote for, I'd be there in a heartbeat! The Democrats have sold our party down the river. This is what happens when you try to play the "sensible center" "middle of the road" crap. You become them.:(

[brentspeak]

27. Anti-Democratic party polls and threads like this bother me

"I don't blame the Republicans or Bush for this..."

Yeah, like it's the Democrats on Capitol Hill who are running the show, and who have the numbers and the power to deny Bush and the GOP's bills and nominees from being approved.

Do you have any ideas on how to HELP the Democrats on Capitol Hill instead of just whipping up anger against them on these boards?

[Armstead]

28. They have to help themselves

As the results of this imprompteau little poll show, there's obviously a lot of desire on the part of the grass roots to see the Democratic leadership stand up and challenge the extent to which we are giving up our freedom, privacy and putting massive snooping bureaucracy in place. There's also a lot of desire not to rubber stamp appointments of GOP nominees who want to impose this crap, like Gonzales, Negraponte, Hayden, etc.

The anger is the williungness of too many Democratic leaders to let the GOP do this unchallenged. Een more anger when Democrats sing the praises of people like Hayden and Negraponte, who are in the middle of the worst aspects of it (now and in the past).

Sure the GOP is in the drivers seat at the moment, so the Democrats can't stop it alone. BUT they can make a strong and consistent case against it, fight hard and SHOW to the American people that there are alternatives.

All it requires on the part of the Democratic leadership is to take a stand against this crap, and fight it vigorously. Also to make the case for freedom over the phony forms of "security" the GOP is trying to impose.

That requires a backbone, such as that shown by Feingold, Conyers, Kucinich and other stalwarts who are trying to defend our freedom.

Sorry, but developing such a backbone is up to the Democratic (and Republican) enablers of this Totalitarian Bureaucracy. None of us individually can force them to do that.

[brentspeak]

29. You actually place value in the validity of your poll?

Everyone here is anonymous; how credible is your poll?

[Armstead]

30. Most polls are anonymous --- And I'm not saying this is the be all...

Of course I don't claim an informal poll on DU is anywhere near a scientific sampling.

But DU is a pretty good representatioin of the varied opinions of liberals and progresives, which is nothing to sneeze at. Especially when the results are as lopsided as this one is.

But to give you the benefit of the doubt, let's say that "only" about half of America is worried about the datamining, no-fly lists, warrentless wiretaps, infiltration of all dissenting groups, etc. That is a lot of people who deserve to have their concerns represented and acted on.

And to go even further, let's say that less than half of America is not as worried as many here seem to be. That doesn't mean the Democratic Partyt should not take a stand on these things. It's up to them to show how wrongheaded it would be to go down the path of a surveillance society.

[Disturbed]

31. Rethugs and Dems say that the American Public is

OK with the Spying. Since when does popular opinion over ride the Consitituion? I guess since 911 Attack. The 4th Ameendment no longer applies. Americans, according to our Govt, are fine with scraping it.

[bdamomma]

33. I hate when they say

"well the American People support this" geez, I yell at the TV when I hear that, don't include me with your sick plans.

[brentspeak]

32. DU is NOT a good representation of liberals and progressives

With all the trolls running around these boards, there's only a handful of posters I take seriously.

[Armstead]

34. More representative polls lso show about half the country...

...is seriously concerned.

And even in those "legitimate" polls, the question is often framed in a way that skews the answer. "Would you rather be killed by a terrorist or have the government bend the law a little bit to tap the phones of terrorists to prevent an attack?"

Hell if that's the choice, I'd go for more flexibility for the government to go after the bad guys.

But that is a false choice. It is quite possible for the government to stay within the law and combat actual terrorism. And it does NOT require a wholesale change or the construction of a huge Big Brother bureaucracy to accomplish that.

That's my problem with the Democrats. They are going along with the extreme excesses that the GOP and the neo-cons and old-fashioned hawks want to impose that go far beyond the legitimate aspects of national security.

I haven't seen you make a strong case FOR the idea that Democrats should go along with this with no or isolated opposition. Evemn if the can;t block all of these things, they can AT LEAST forcefully take a stand and educate the public about the dangers of this. A consistent unified vote against these things and people would -- at the very least -- put the real issues on the table.